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Dennis Smith Jr. wouldnt give the Knicks a physical... there you go, done deal
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HofstraBBall
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1/3/2018  1:11 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Nalod wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Frank does so many things well on a basketball court.
The number one thing is défense.
How many guards in this league can do what Frank can on D already? This is in his rookie year when he is still a long way from his peak or having the defensive smarts.

The thing with Frank will be his offense. He needs to be more aggressive at taking shots and going to the basket especially off screens. Also already he is probably the only one that pushes pace.

I think years from now we will be singing Phil Jacksons praises for drafting KP and Frank.

Don't be surprised if in a couple of years from now Frank will be still passing up wide open shots and coming off someones bench and KP is wearing another jersey. That's the NBA and no one knows.

man are you that jaded?

Jaded?

So Frank was not a Triangle pick?
So Phil was not a relic and out of touch?
So Dolan did not fail by bringing in a NAME without due diligence. A guy that even his Lakers wanted No part of in the FO?

Jaded by Knicks history with Dolan....absokutely.

Jimmy Buss was in charge and burned the bridges with Phil who was about married to his sister at the time. Lakers had their own issues.

You make “Triangle guard” sound like a bad thing. Triangle SF? They were called KObe and Mike Jordan. Players are players.

So your saying that Phils "Burned Bridges" is an excuse for him not being desirable by the management that knew him the best? That seemed to be a red flag for every other NBA organazation for years prior to good ole Jim having an epiphany.

Can you name the really good PG's Phil has had that were not just role players? Ron Harper, Craig Hodges, Fish, Steve Kerr? All good role players but could see Bull and Laker fans faces if they picked one of those over MJ and Kobe in the draft. MY POINT. To me Frank, Baker are just role players if they don't get considerably better.

Why is it that if you call Frank a Triangle pick its frowned upon by those that liked the Triangle? And again, this is not about Frank. He is a very good defender. Someone every team needs to have. Just dont think you need an 8th pick to get one. We are seeing today that those picked in the top 10 that were good picks are significantly contributing to their teams. Frank is just a role player right now. Can't exactly say that is what we all expected after watching a horrible season but hoping for a significant draft pick.

Harper was a 20pt scorer before he joined the Bulls. Actually going after him was pretty innovative at that time transferring him to PG. Using his size and length to make them an elite defensive team with Jordan and Pippen on the perimeter.

When you have Jordan and Pippen and Kobe and Shaq and Gasol sprinkled in with ball moving forwards like Kukoc and Odom. When building your team you aren't going to rely on a ball dominant PG. Since these other players are going to command high usage. Jordan, Pippen, Kobe played the role of playmaking PG and averaged 5-8 ast per game. The point guards playing next to them provided other things like defense and spacing. Same principals of Steve Nash playing next to Raja Bell. Ball dominant playmaker next to off ball defender shooter.

Basketball is basketball. Phil drafting Frank in the lottery probably had more to do with him feeling he landed a Pippen at the natural PG position then looking for a Derek Fisher in the lottery.

In also thought Dennis Smith Jr would be having a better rookie yr then he is.

So your point is that Phil thought Frank was a Pippen or that he felt we already had a Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, Shaq and Gasol on the team? You just made my point. Why didn't we go after those type of players with the top 8 pick? Not the solid good defender that can be had in the second round?(ie. PIPPEN)

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
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newyorknewyork
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1/3/2018  1:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/3/2018  1:58 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Nalod wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Frank does so many things well on a basketball court.
The number one thing is défense.
How many guards in this league can do what Frank can on D already? This is in his rookie year when he is still a long way from his peak or having the defensive smarts.

The thing with Frank will be his offense. He needs to be more aggressive at taking shots and going to the basket especially off screens. Also already he is probably the only one that pushes pace.

I think years from now we will be singing Phil Jacksons praises for drafting KP and Frank.

Don't be surprised if in a couple of years from now Frank will be still passing up wide open shots and coming off someones bench and KP is wearing another jersey. That's the NBA and no one knows.

man are you that jaded?

Jaded?

So Frank was not a Triangle pick?
So Phil was not a relic and out of touch?
So Dolan did not fail by bringing in a NAME without due diligence. A guy that even his Lakers wanted No part of in the FO?

Jaded by Knicks history with Dolan....absokutely.

Jimmy Buss was in charge and burned the bridges with Phil who was about married to his sister at the time. Lakers had their own issues.

You make “Triangle guard” sound like a bad thing. Triangle SF? They were called KObe and Mike Jordan. Players are players.

So your saying that Phils "Burned Bridges" is an excuse for him not being desirable by the management that knew him the best? That seemed to be a red flag for every other NBA organazation for years prior to good ole Jim having an epiphany.

Can you name the really good PG's Phil has had that were not just role players? Ron Harper, Craig Hodges, Fish, Steve Kerr? All good role players but could see Bull and Laker fans faces if they picked one of those over MJ and Kobe in the draft. MY POINT. To me Frank, Baker are just role players if they don't get considerably better.

Why is it that if you call Frank a Triangle pick its frowned upon by those that liked the Triangle? And again, this is not about Frank. He is a very good defender. Someone every team needs to have. Just dont think you need an 8th pick to get one. We are seeing today that those picked in the top 10 that were good picks are significantly contributing to their teams. Frank is just a role player right now. Can't exactly say that is what we all expected after watching a horrible season but hoping for a significant draft pick.

Harper was a 20pt scorer before he joined the Bulls. Actually going after him was pretty innovative at that time transferring him to PG. Using his size and length to make them an elite defensive team with Jordan and Pippen on the perimeter.

When you have Jordan and Pippen and Kobe and Shaq and Gasol sprinkled in with ball moving forwards like Kukoc and Odom. When building your team you aren't going to rely on a ball dominant PG. Since these other players are going to command high usage. Jordan, Pippen, Kobe played the role of playmaking PG and averaged 5-8 ast per game. The point guards playing next to them provided other things like defense and spacing. Same principals of Steve Nash playing next to Raja Bell. Ball dominant playmaker next to off ball defender shooter.

Basketball is basketball. Phil drafting Frank in the lottery probably had more to do with him feeling he landed a Pippen at the natural PG position then looking for a Derek Fisher in the lottery.

In also thought Dennis Smith Jr would be having a better rookie yr then he is.

So your point is that Phil thought Frank was a Pippen or that he felt we already had a Jordan, Kobe, Pippen, Shaq and Gasol on the team? You just made my point. Why didn't we go after those type of players with the top 8 pick? Not the solid good defender that can be had in the second round?(ie. PIPPEN)

Im saying it's more likely that he thought Frank was Pippen then that he drafted him in the lottery to be Derek Fisher. The reason you gave that Phil had specific type of guards in the past so that's the reason why he drafted Frank doesn't hold up to me. He targeted those type of guards do to who was on his roster already.

He drafted Frank because he felt he would be a stud 2 way player like Pippen whose 6'8 lanky frame with point forward skills helped him become a hall of famer. That his size and skill for his age gave him stud potential as a 2 way player.

I am also pretty sure that Phil didn't make this decision on his own. We weren't able to work Frank out and Phil never traveled over seas to scout him. So I'm pretty sure Mills who did go to France to scout him and Gaines who is our head scout. They had to be the ones to sell Frank to Phil since they are the ones with the intel. That is unless they both wanted someone else. And Phil ignored their opinions to take Frank.

I'm pretty sure the idea of having a unique 7'3 mobile big like KP and a 6-5 guard like Frank was viewed as a bigger picture ideal. Same with the drafting of Dotson in the 2nd.

Dennis Smith isn't Kobe or Jordan. These are elite 2-way players with first team all defenses on their resumes.

MS
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1/3/2018  2:15 PM
Frank's lack of athleticism is a little worrying. He should be able to get to the rim and at 6'5 with those arms play above it.

I am always a little perplexed how the Knicks never seem to use the resources they have. Clyde would gladly work with the kid and always talks about no one ever coming to him for help and advice from the organization. I would also like to see Mark Jackson be brought in to work with him. No one got more out of his body than that guy.

It's early and none of the other point guards are lighting the world on fire and Frank is the youngest of the bunch.

martin
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1/3/2018  4:33 PM
knicks1248 wrote:frank is a role player with out question, I would be shock if he ever avg more than 10 points.

Post #2 today that made me feel a bit dumber for having read it.

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Nalod
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1/3/2018  5:50 PM
Jimmy buss picked MDA over Phil.
Jimmy Buss was awful judge of talent ran Lakers into the ground.
You despute Phils ability to coach? Phil never in running to be team president of lakers.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
HofstraBBall
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1/3/2018  7:16 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/3/2018  7:29 PM
Nalod wrote:Jimmy buss picked MDA over Phil.
Jimmy Buss was awful judge of talent ran Lakers into the ground.
You despute Phils ability to coach? Phil never in running to be team president of lakers.

Phil absolutely wanted to head the Lakers. And how is it a point FOR Phil if the Lakers passed on him for what is perceived to be his best role? And not a MDA fan but he did represent the direction of modern basketball and not 90's style. He has done ok in Houston.

Think we saw quite well why most would be hesitant to have Phil represent and head an organazation. The Knicks/Dolan were too stupid to realize it was just a golden parachute stop for Phil.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
Nalod
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1/3/2018  9:04 PM
Lakers were run by Jeannie, Jimmy Buss, had Kupchek and was looking to hire a coach.
Jimmy was threatened by Phils presence even as coach.
I’m not going to defend what we all know in hindsight about his knick tenure.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
technomaster
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1/4/2018  3:51 PM
TRUE.

Wish they'd tap into Clyde Frazier. Not sure if Clyde was able to dunk... but he was shifty and athletic enough to be one of the all time greats.

MS wrote:Frank's lack of athleticism is a little worrying. He should be able to get to the rim and at 6'5 with those arms play above it.

I am always a little perplexed how the Knicks never seem to use the resources they have. Clyde would gladly work with the kid and always talks about no one ever coming to him for help and advice from the organization. I would also like to see Mark Jackson be brought in to work with him. No one got more out of his body than that guy.

It's early and none of the other point guards are lighting the world on fire and Frank is the youngest of the bunch.

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Nalod
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1/4/2018  5:04 PM
technomaster wrote:TRUE.

Wish they'd tap into Clyde Frazier. Not sure if Clyde was able to dunk... but he was shifty and athletic enough to be one of the all time greats.

MS wrote:Frank's lack of athleticism is a little worrying. He should be able to get to the rim and at 6'5 with those arms play above it.

I am always a little perplexed how the Knicks never seem to use the resources they have. Clyde would gladly work with the kid and always talks about no one ever coming to him for help and advice from the organization. I would also like to see Mark Jackson be brought in to work with him. No one got more out of his body than that guy.

It's early and none of the other point guards are lighting the world on fire and Frank is the youngest of the bunch.

Might want to look at the stats and read up on Clydes rookie year. Nothing special. He was 22-23 years old.
I doubt as a freshman in college playing junior varsity in southern Illinois he could have stepped on the court in the nba.
This is clyde as a senior mvp of the NIT:

Mark Jax is a TV guy. Not a knick coach. Frank does not have the world as his disposal. Does he talk to Clyde? I dunno. Does he NOT?

Him in college. He not filled out yet either.

You worried he is not being coached and thinking these HOF have the magic potion for him that he is not getting currently?
Clyde and Jax were either playing JV or riding the pine as freshman!
Give the kid some time. He is doing things now he was not a few weeks ago.
I can't find any pics of Clyde prior to his senior year or Mark Jax as a senior in High school.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
CrushAlot
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1/4/2018  5:59 PM
Nalod wrote:
technomaster wrote:TRUE.

Wish they'd tap into Clyde Frazier. Not sure if Clyde was able to dunk... but he was shifty and athletic enough to be one of the all time greats.

MS wrote:Frank's lack of athleticism is a little worrying. He should be able to get to the rim and at 6'5 with those arms play above it.

I am always a little perplexed how the Knicks never seem to use the resources they have. Clyde would gladly work with the kid and always talks about no one ever coming to him for help and advice from the organization. I would also like to see Mark Jackson be brought in to work with him. No one got more out of his body than that guy.

It's early and none of the other point guards are lighting the world on fire and Frank is the youngest of the bunch.

Might want to look at the stats and read up on Clydes rookie year. Nothing special. He was 22-23 years old.
I doubt as a freshman in college playing junior varsity in southern Illinois he could have stepped on the court in the nba.
This is clyde as a senior mvp of the NIT:

Mark Jax is a TV guy. Not a knick coach. Frank does not have the world as his disposal. Does he talk to Clyde? I dunno. Does he NOT?

Him in college. He not filled out yet either.

You worried he is not being coached and thinking these HOF have the magic potion for him that he is not getting currently?
Clyde and Jax were either playing JV or riding the pine as freshman!
Give the kid some time. He is doing things now he was not a few weeks ago.
I can't find any pics of Clyde prior to his senior year or Mark Jax as a senior in High school.

Jax was a head coach for 3 years in the nba. He also was a guy with limited athleticism that had a very long, successful career in the nba. I guess I wouldn't dismiss that resume as just a tv guy. We know Mills wanted Phil to consider MJax for the head coaching job. Similar to Dirk working with KP, it might benefit Frank to work with Jax.
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Nalod
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1/5/2018  1:37 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/5/2018  1:39 PM
Jax was a paranoid homophobe minister who got nailed cheating on his wife and fired for imploding GSW with some crazy shyt.
Please find me the the link that got Mills wanting Jax.
I liked Jax the player, great career with limited athletic as he got older and filled out. I don't see where Frank should be backing down players or lacking court vision. Jax if played now would be facing zone defense and quicker weak side help. Im not sure he would have sustained a long career in todays game.
I see Frank as more Clyde who did not have explosive quick feet but was fast enough to be all defensive player.
Frank's game is not yet refined but he has good range and if he is hesitant about going into the paint he is just being smart. Or lets say his coach's are handling him ok. All this comes in time.
My point is Frank is not lacking coaching, he is not executing but im not sure he is ready to extend his game that way. We read over and over "Frank needs to this....Frank needs to that...." as if nobody on knicks coaching staff is paying attention!

Kid is a full year younger than any rookie and does not have the AAU ball dominant instinct. Yet. Not saying it comes as certain but I'm seeing progress in every aspect!
Clyde was not clyde his rookie year either.

btw, That picture with Pearl Washington! He looks like a mini Daryl Dawkins!!

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
CrushAlot
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1/5/2018  2:04 PM
Nalod wrote:Jax was a paranoid homophobe minister who got nailed cheating on his wife and fired for imploding GSW with some crazy shyt.
Please find me the the link that got Mills wanting Jax.
I liked Jax the player, great career with limited athletic as he got older and filled out. I don't see where Frank should be backing down players or lacking court vision. Jax if played now would be facing zone defense and quicker weak side help. Im not sure he would have sustained a long career in todays game.
I see Frank as more Clyde who did not have explosive quick feet but was fast enough to be all defensive player.
Frank's game is not yet refined but he has good range and if he is hesitant about going into the paint he is just being smart. Or lets say his coach's are handling him ok. All this comes in time.
My point is Frank is not lacking coaching, he is not executing but im not sure he is ready to extend his game that way. We read over and over "Frank needs to this....Frank needs to that...." as if nobody on knicks coaching staff is paying attention!

Kid is a full year younger than any rookie and does not have the AAU ball dominant instinct. Yet. Not saying it comes as certain but I'm seeing progress in every aspect!
Clyde was not clyde his rookie year either.

btw, That picture with Pearl Washington! He looks like a mini Daryl Dawkins!!

Here you go:
Mills’ ambivalence toward the triangle was well known. The Post reported during Jackson’s initial coaching search — after Steve Kerr reneged on a verbal commitment — Mills tried to get the Zen Master to interview non-triangle coaches, specifically Mark Jackson.
https://nypost.com/2017/12/22/details-of-phil-jackson-steve-mills-dysfunction-spilling-out/
Not sure how trashing Jax diminishes him as a player or coach. Also, in your previous post you referred to him as a tv guy. Jax as Warriors coach is similar to JKidd in Milwaukee. He could only get them so far in my opinion and then another guy was needed. I think the Bucks will eventually move on from Kidd and have similar results. The Warriors were smart to move on but Jax winning 20+ more games in his second season with a team that had been bad for awhile was a great accomplishment.
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Nalod
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1/5/2018  2:11 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:Jax was a paranoid homophobe minister who got nailed cheating on his wife and fired for imploding GSW with some crazy shyt.
Please find me the the link that got Mills wanting Jax.
I liked Jax the player, great career with limited athletic as he got older and filled out. I don't see where Frank should be backing down players or lacking court vision. Jax if played now would be facing zone defense and quicker weak side help. Im not sure he would have sustained a long career in todays game.
I see Frank as more Clyde who did not have explosive quick feet but was fast enough to be all defensive player.
Frank's game is not yet refined but he has good range and if he is hesitant about going into the paint he is just being smart. Or lets say his coach's are handling him ok. All this comes in time.
My point is Frank is not lacking coaching, he is not executing but im not sure he is ready to extend his game that way. We read over and over "Frank needs to this....Frank needs to that...." as if nobody on knicks coaching staff is paying attention!

Kid is a full year younger than any rookie and does not have the AAU ball dominant instinct. Yet. Not saying it comes as certain but I'm seeing progress in every aspect!
Clyde was not clyde his rookie year either.

btw, That picture with Pearl Washington! He looks like a mini Daryl Dawkins!!

Here you go:
Mills’ ambivalence toward the triangle was well known. The Post reported during Jackson’s initial coaching search — after Steve Kerr reneged on a verbal commitment — Mills tried to get the Zen Master to interview non-triangle coaches, specifically Mark Jackson.
https://nypost.com/2017/12/22/details-of-phil-jackson-steve-mills-dysfunction-spilling-out/
Not sure how trashing Jax diminishes him as a player or coach. Also, in your previous post you referred to him as a tv guy. Jax as Warriors coach is similar to JKidd in Milwaukee. He could only get them so far in my opinion and then another guy was needed. I think the Bucks will eventually move on from Kidd and have similar results. The Warriors were smart to move on but Jax winning 20+ more games in his second season with a team that had been bad for awhile was a great accomplishment.

Thanks for finding that. Im not slaming him as a player other than his style is not relevant to frank.
As a coach, I think he was a good Rah Rah guy that players enjoyed playing for and yes he did a good job on Curry.
Not because he was the type of player he was, because he was his coach.
Is there not other guys that can teach him? I would think someone with the Euro vs. American game perspective would help. At his young age its not like he is too old to change his approach.
As for clyde, I would think there is some perspective he can offer. Clyde has always said he is always available. I don't think that would ever be a problem. Need it be publicized?

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Welpee
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1/5/2018  7:47 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/5/2018  7:57 PM
Nalod wrote:I can't find any pics of Clyde prior to his senior year or Mark Jax as a senior in High school.

This is Mark as a junior at St. John's which would put him at age 21.

It's also interesting that Mark Jackson, Pearl Washington and Kenny Smith hit the scene around the same time. Pearl was considered the best coming out of high school, Smith was considered the best athlete of the three and Jackson was behind both. Yet it was Jackson who had the best pro career.

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1/6/2018  9:20 AM
Cuban is now saying he would have drafted Frank if available. IDk, maybe he would have. Maybe this is so Frank doesn't have the incentive to have a breakout game against DSJ.
newyorknewyork
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1/6/2018  10:08 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Cuban is now saying he would have drafted Frank if available. IDk, maybe he would have. Maybe this is so Frank doesn't have the incentive to have a breakout game against DSJ.

He did say that with the pretense on if the Knicks selected Smith.

The notion that Cuban used interest in Frank to trick the Knicks into drafting him has been one of the dumbest narratives I have heard over the years. Mavs did try to sell that after the draft somewhat. But BS should have been called by credible reporters rather then feeding into it. Knicks picked before Dallas. Why would the Knicks care what Dallas was thinking? Now if we picked after Dallas and traded up in front of them to select a player due to being scared they would take him. Then I could see it.

With players like Barea, Ferrell, Curry. It would makes sense for them to have interest in Frank to compliment all their undersized guards. Dallas has always been very open to international players.

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1/6/2018  10:54 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Cuban is now saying he would have drafted Frank if available. IDk, maybe he would have. Maybe this is so Frank doesn't have the incentive to have a breakout game against DSJ.

In Bondy's article he said they would have interest in Frank if Dennis had already been drafted.
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Nalod
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1/6/2018  11:12 AM
How would they have tricked us? I never got that.
We picked before them right?
So them indicating they wanted frank made us want him more? Seems childish.
I guess thats why some believe that.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
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1/6/2018  11:17 AM
Nalod wrote:How would they have tricked us? I never got that.
We picked before them right?
So them indicating they wanted frank made us want him more? Seems childish.
I guess thats why some believe that.
Never overrate the intelligence of some Knick fans.
Nalod
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1/6/2018  11:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/6/2018  12:00 PM
Welpee wrote:
Nalod wrote:How would they have tricked us? I never got that.
We picked before them right?
So them indicating they wanted frank made us want him more? Seems childish.
I guess thats why some believe that.
Never overrate the intelligence of some Knick fans.

"Some are proclaimed like "Genius".

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Dennis Smith Jr. wouldnt give the Knicks a physical... there you go, done deal

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