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Dennis Smith Jr. wouldnt give the Knicks a physical... there you go, done deal
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nyknickzingis
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1/1/2018  8:32 AM
Even if he didn't have the physical issues, I still like Frank for his defense. We needed a defensive upgrade more than anything else. Last year we had Rose, who was playing better ball than current DSJ is for the Mavs. Our defense was awful.

We have improved defensively with making the choice we did. We need to commit to what we're trying to do, which is to be a team that is active, plays defense and will have player movement in the offense. All things Frank exemplifies, and things DSJ would not have.
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BigDaddyG
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1/1/2018  9:15 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Rick Carlisle, who doesn't suffer fools on the court gladly, has praised Smith for his maturity, and willingness to learn. A case can be made for passing on Smith because he refused a physical. The narrative however that Smith is some immature, Diva, And1, nightmare, is way over the top.

Carlisle would have glued Smith to the bench from day one.

It’s not over the top, wasn’t that his rep in college?

Perhaps he has been better in Dallas but that wouldn’t negate things before the draft.

If you dig beyond the headlines, I believe you will find that his college coaching staff really screwed the pooch while Smith was there. They were canned in the aftermath. Smith has found a way to earn the respect of one of the most demanding, if not the most demanding head coach in the league.

Don't believe Smith is just faking it. I would take a look at his family background, how he was raised, before coming to the conclusion that Smith jr, is just another Diva Baller.

Yeah, but bad coaching alone won't make a prospect drop the way DSJ did. However, the reluctance to take team physicals and other perceived negative personality traits would do the trick. None of us truly know. It's all speculation.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Ira
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1/1/2018  11:11 AM
Frank's a better floor general and a much better defender than Smith. Smith's scoring is better than Frank's at this point, but his scoring isn't that great. He does have some impressive highlight reels.
fishmike
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1/1/2018  11:26 AM
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Rick Carlisle, who doesn't suffer fools on the court gladly, has praised Smith for his maturity, and willingness to learn. A case can be made for passing on Smith because he refused a physical. The narrative however that Smith is some immature, Diva, And1, nightmare, is way over the top.

Carlisle would have glued Smith to the bench from day one.

It’s not over the top, wasn’t that his rep in college?

Perhaps he has been better in Dallas but that wouldn’t negate things before the draft.

I read about the team he was on. There was a lot of dysfunction there that Smith walked into. I dont think his attitude was the issue. I think its as incredibly simple as this:

There were guys you liked on the board. Smith refused a physical and he's coming off a major knee surgery. How in gods name do you take Smith? How do you draft a player with injuries that refused to take a physical with a lottery pick? Danny Granger was one of the best players in college. He dropped to 17 and at that point in the draft you just take a shot at that talent. You dont do that in the top 10, not when other quality players are still on the board.

His attitude? I mean he's a kid. These men are very very young and being a pro athlete does not accelerate your maturity. He's gonna act his age just like KP and Frank will. Maybe worse, but who knows. It sounds like his attitude has been good. Thats not the point. No regrets drafting Frank. He's going to end up being the better player anyway. The point is Knicks didnt pass. Smith forced them to. But.. "they went back on their word."

Yup. If they said the physical doesnt matter I'll give him that.

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fitzfarm
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1/1/2018  12:27 PM
Lets not forget to that DSJR is a god awful defensive player. So thankful for Phil drafting a defensive talent like frank I see frank being the number one defensive pg in the NBA I’d take that over scoring any day of the week ! We should all thank Phil for his draft and getting the weels moving to move melo, we can all be thankful we moved on from Phil before he moved KP! Phil deserves credit for drafting such a defensive talent with great court vision!
Welpee
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1/1/2018  12:35 PM
So Dallas drafted him witbout a physical or were the Knicks the only team denied a physical?
CrushAlot
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1/1/2018  12:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/1/2018  12:52 PM
Welpee wrote:So Dallas drafted him witbout a physical or were the Knicks the only team denied a physical?

I can't find anything that says whether the Mavs gave him a physical or not. Some speculation last summer that records may have been withheld to keep the Knicks from drafting him.
“I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint … You never know with these situations – are agents withholding information because they don’t want you to draft a guy? But there was, I believe, a lack of access to medical records.”

Smith did not work out with the Knicks when he met with the franchise and instead just had dinner with the organization. According to the New York Post, his representatives declined to take measurements and a medical exam as well.


http://hoopshype.com/2017/07/20/dennis-smith-jr-reportedly-did-not-provide-medical-records-to-the-knicks/
Here's what Lowe, Begley and Beck had to say about the developments about Smith from the draft:

BEGLEY: There were people in that room who were making the case for Malik Monk, making the case for Dennis Smith Jr., obviously you see the summer league Dennis Smith Jr. has had and people go crazy. I think it's too early to draw 100 percent conclusions, but (Ntilikina) was 100-percent a Phil move.
BECK: The other name that I heard was in there quite a bit, maybe not universally, but there was certainly was discussion of him, a lot of the staff really liked Donovan Mitchell.
BEGLEY: Absolutely. No question.
BECK: I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint, there were some things... you never know with these situations... agents withholding things because they don't want you to draft a guy, or they... I believe there was a lack of access to medical records.
BEGLEY: Yep.
BECK: That had been out there. It's never as simple as, well, Phil saw this guy as a great triangle guy, there were other people around the league who said, triangle or no triangle, Ntikikina is a legit point guard.
The Knicks eventually drafted Ntilikina instead.


http://www.givemesport.com/1105366-dennis-smith-jr-did-not-give-knicks-medical-records-as-it-considered-him-in-draft
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Jmpasq
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1/1/2018  1:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/1/2018  1:25 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Welpee wrote:So Dallas drafted him witbout a physical or were the Knicks the only team denied a physical?

I can't find anything that says whether the Mavs gave him a physical or not. Some speculation last summer that records may have been withheld to keep the Knicks from drafting him.
“I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint … You never know with these situations – are agents withholding information because they don’t want you to draft a guy? But there was, I believe, a lack of access to medical records.”

Smith did not work out with the Knicks when he met with the franchise and instead just had dinner with the organization. According to the New York Post, his representatives declined to take measurements and a medical exam as well.


http://hoopshype.com/2017/07/20/dennis-smith-jr-reportedly-did-not-provide-medical-records-to-the-knicks/
Here's what Lowe, Begley and Beck had to say about the developments about Smith from the draft:

BEGLEY: There were people in that room who were making the case for Malik Monk, making the case for Dennis Smith Jr., obviously you see the summer league Dennis Smith Jr. has had and people go crazy. I think it's too early to draw 100 percent conclusions, but (Ntilikina) was 100-percent a Phil move.
BECK: The other name that I heard was in there quite a bit, maybe not universally, but there was certainly was discussion of him, a lot of the staff really liked Donovan Mitchell.
BEGLEY: Absolutely. No question.
BECK: I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint, there were some things... you never know with these situations... agents withholding things because they don't want you to draft a guy, or they... I believe there was a lack of access to medical records.
BEGLEY: Yep.
BECK: That had been out there. It's never as simple as, well, Phil saw this guy as a great triangle guy, there were other people around the league who said, triangle or no triangle, Ntikikina is a legit point guard.
The Knicks eventually drafted Ntilikina instead.


http://www.givemesport.com/1105366-dennis-smith-jr-did-not-give-knicks-medical-records-as-it-considered-him-in-draft

Im surprised they didn't take Mitchell he was a little more polished offensively and brought much of the same defensive effort Frank brings. I wonder if they could do it again if they would make the same pick

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BigDaddyG
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1/1/2018  1:57 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Welpee wrote:So Dallas drafted him witbout a physical or were the Knicks the only team denied a physical?

I can't find anything that says whether the Mavs gave him a physical or not. Some speculation last summer that records may have been withheld to keep the Knicks from drafting him.
“I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint … You never know with these situations – are agents withholding information because they don’t want you to draft a guy? But there was, I believe, a lack of access to medical records.”

Smith did not work out with the Knicks when he met with the franchise and instead just had dinner with the organization. According to the New York Post, his representatives declined to take measurements and a medical exam as well.


http://hoopshype.com/2017/07/20/dennis-smith-jr-reportedly-did-not-provide-medical-records-to-the-knicks/
Here's what Lowe, Begley and Beck had to say about the developments about Smith from the draft:

BEGLEY: There were people in that room who were making the case for Malik Monk, making the case for Dennis Smith Jr., obviously you see the summer league Dennis Smith Jr. has had and people go crazy. I think it's too early to draw 100 percent conclusions, but (Ntilikina) was 100-percent a Phil move.
BECK: The other name that I heard was in there quite a bit, maybe not universally, but there was certainly was discussion of him, a lot of the staff really liked Donovan Mitchell.
BEGLEY: Absolutely. No question.
BECK: I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint, there were some things... you never know with these situations... agents withholding things because they don't want you to draft a guy, or they... I believe there was a lack of access to medical records.
BEGLEY: Yep.
BECK: That had been out there. It's never as simple as, well, Phil saw this guy as a great triangle guy, there were other people around the league who said, triangle or no triangle, Ntikikina is a legit point guard.
The Knicks eventually drafted Ntilikina instead.


http://www.givemesport.com/1105366-dennis-smith-jr-did-not-give-knicks-medical-records-as-it-considered-him-in-draft

Im surprised they didn't take Mitchell he was a little more polished offensively and brought much of the same defensive effort Frank brings. I wonder if they could do it again if they would make the same pick


Probably...but to be fair Mitchell is displaying offensive skill he didn't show at the Western University Dolphins, er, I mean Louisville. He also still hasn't proven he's a point guard. TBH, every team except Boston is second guessing that pick. Still, I'd say we made out pretty good.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fishmike
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1/1/2018  2:00 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Welpee wrote:So Dallas drafted him witbout a physical or were the Knicks the only team denied a physical?

I can't find anything that says whether the Mavs gave him a physical or not. Some speculation last summer that records may have been withheld to keep the Knicks from drafting him.
“I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint … You never know with these situations – are agents withholding information because they don’t want you to draft a guy? But there was, I believe, a lack of access to medical records.”

Smith did not work out with the Knicks when he met with the franchise and instead just had dinner with the organization. According to the New York Post, his representatives declined to take measurements and a medical exam as well.


http://hoopshype.com/2017/07/20/dennis-smith-jr-reportedly-did-not-provide-medical-records-to-the-knicks/
Here's what Lowe, Begley and Beck had to say about the developments about Smith from the draft:

BEGLEY: There were people in that room who were making the case for Malik Monk, making the case for Dennis Smith Jr., obviously you see the summer league Dennis Smith Jr. has had and people go crazy. I think it's too early to draw 100 percent conclusions, but (Ntilikina) was 100-percent a Phil move.
BECK: The other name that I heard was in there quite a bit, maybe not universally, but there was certainly was discussion of him, a lot of the staff really liked Donovan Mitchell.
BEGLEY: Absolutely. No question.
BECK: I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint, there were some things... you never know with these situations... agents withholding things because they don't want you to draft a guy, or they... I believe there was a lack of access to medical records.
BEGLEY: Yep.
BECK: That had been out there. It's never as simple as, well, Phil saw this guy as a great triangle guy, there were other people around the league who said, triangle or no triangle, Ntikikina is a legit point guard.
The Knicks eventually drafted Ntilikina instead.


http://www.givemesport.com/1105366-dennis-smith-jr-did-not-give-knicks-medical-records-as-it-considered-him-in-draft

Im surprised they didn't take Mitchell he was a little more polished offensively and brought much of the same defensive effort Frank brings. I wonder if they could do it again if they would make the same pick

They loved Mitchell and worked him out twice. The question was if Mitchell's a PG or not. He's having an amazing rookie year, NOT playing PG.
Part of the value of what Frank brings as PG is if a guy like Mitchell is available next year you dont hesitate to get him even if you have concerns about his ability to play PG at the next level. Mitchell and Frank would look fantastic together in the same backcourt. He reminds me of Avery Bradley a lot and thats compliment.

Mitchell was also ranked behind Frank in pretty much every draft analysis, mock, etc....

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Welpee
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1/1/2018  2:22 PM
fishmike wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Welpee wrote:So Dallas drafted him witbout a physical or were the Knicks the only team denied a physical?

I can't find anything that says whether the Mavs gave him a physical or not. Some speculation last summer that records may have been withheld to keep the Knicks from drafting him.
“I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint … You never know with these situations – are agents withholding information because they don’t want you to draft a guy? But there was, I believe, a lack of access to medical records.”

Smith did not work out with the Knicks when he met with the franchise and instead just had dinner with the organization. According to the New York Post, his representatives declined to take measurements and a medical exam as well.


http://hoopshype.com/2017/07/20/dennis-smith-jr-reportedly-did-not-provide-medical-records-to-the-knicks/
Here's what Lowe, Begley and Beck had to say about the developments about Smith from the draft:

BEGLEY: There were people in that room who were making the case for Malik Monk, making the case for Dennis Smith Jr., obviously you see the summer league Dennis Smith Jr. has had and people go crazy. I think it's too early to draw 100 percent conclusions, but (Ntilikina) was 100-percent a Phil move.
BECK: The other name that I heard was in there quite a bit, maybe not universally, but there was certainly was discussion of him, a lot of the staff really liked Donovan Mitchell.
BEGLEY: Absolutely. No question.
BECK: I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint, there were some things... you never know with these situations... agents withholding things because they don't want you to draft a guy, or they... I believe there was a lack of access to medical records.
BEGLEY: Yep.
BECK: That had been out there. It's never as simple as, well, Phil saw this guy as a great triangle guy, there were other people around the league who said, triangle or no triangle, Ntikikina is a legit point guard.
The Knicks eventually drafted Ntilikina instead.


http://www.givemesport.com/1105366-dennis-smith-jr-did-not-give-knicks-medical-records-as-it-considered-him-in-draft

Im surprised they didn't take Mitchell he was a little more polished offensively and brought much of the same defensive effort Frank brings. I wonder if they could do it again if they would make the same pick

They loved Mitchell and worked him out twice. The question was if Mitchell's a PG or not. He's having an amazing rookie year, NOT playing PG.
Part of the value of what Frank brings as PG is if a guy like Mitchell is available next year you dont hesitate to get him even if you have concerns about his ability to play PG at the next level. Mitchell and Frank would look fantastic together in the same backcourt. He reminds me of Avery Bradley a lot and thats compliment.

Mitchell was also ranked behind Frank in pretty much every draft analysis, mock, etc....

Plus, I'm assuming you need to factor the availability of players in free agency. The possibility to securing a quality young SG in free agency (Hardaway) may have to greater than the possibility of securing a quality young PG.
EnySpree
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1/1/2018  2:58 PM
Donavan Mitchell is better than both.

I'm good with Frank though. Frank had quietly been evolving with his own offense.

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newyorker4ever
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1/1/2018  3:24 PM
Has anyone even answered the question that this thread was even about?? Do you think we should of drafted DSJ with him refusing to let us look at his medical records??
Jmpasq
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1/1/2018  3:34 PM
newyorker4ever wrote:Has anyone even answered the question that this thread was even about?? Do you think we should of drafted DSJ with him refusing to let us look at his medical records??

I wanted to draft DSJ but I wouldnt of picked him either If I was the GM and he refused to show his medical records

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1/1/2018  4:19 PM
EnySpree wrote:Donavan Mitchell is better than both.

I'm good with Frank though. Frank had quietly been evolving with his own offense.

I was high on DM but it does matter that he’s 21 vs Nitty at 19. 2 more years of development is a LOT.
BigDaddyG
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1/1/2018  5:10 PM
nixluva wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Donavan Mitchell is better than both.

I'm good with Frank though. Frank had quietly been evolving with his own offense.

I was high on DM but it does matter that he’s 21 vs Nitty at 19. 2 more years of development is a LOT.


Giannis at age 19

Giannis at age 21

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
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1/1/2018  5:46 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/1/2018  6:21 PM
HAPPY New Year Mike.

Is this the official "Coping with not taking Smith but Frank is okay thread?

Fact is Phil would have never picked DS as he was not Triangle worthy. Going through basic Due Dilligence exercise does not change he has no interest in a 'Ball dominant guard", which he was wrong about as many on here were, btw. But will agree that DS wanted no part of the Triangle **** show either. My favorite part of story is when he said the Knicks/Phil went back on their word. Seemed consistent with Phil.

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1/1/2018  5:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/1/2018  6:23 PM
fitzfarm wrote:Lets not forget to that DSJR is a god awful defensive player. So thankful for Phil drafting a defensive talent like frank I see frank being the number one defensive pg in the NBA I’d take that over scoring any day of the week ! We should all thank Phil for his draft and getting the weels moving to move melo, we can all be thankful we moved on from Phil before he moved KP! Phil deserves credit for drafting such a defensive talent with great court vision!

Ah.... the put down an offensive players defense strategy. I guess your right. It's not like we are ignoring how incredibly aggressive Frank is on offense. Reminds me a little of Russ Westbrook.

Hey it's over. And I mean Phil/Triangle is no.longer here. Kid is doing fine

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1/1/2018  5:55 PM
fishmike wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Welpee wrote:So Dallas drafted him witbout a physical or were the Knicks the only team denied a physical?

I can't find anything that says whether the Mavs gave him a physical or not. Some speculation last summer that records may have been withheld to keep the Knicks from drafting him.
“I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint … You never know with these situations – are agents withholding information because they don’t want you to draft a guy? But there was, I believe, a lack of access to medical records.”

Smith did not work out with the Knicks when he met with the franchise and instead just had dinner with the organization. According to the New York Post, his representatives declined to take measurements and a medical exam as well.


http://hoopshype.com/2017/07/20/dennis-smith-jr-reportedly-did-not-provide-medical-records-to-the-knicks/
Here's what Lowe, Begley and Beck had to say about the developments about Smith from the draft:

BEGLEY: There were people in that room who were making the case for Malik Monk, making the case for Dennis Smith Jr., obviously you see the summer league Dennis Smith Jr. has had and people go crazy. I think it's too early to draw 100 percent conclusions, but (Ntilikina) was 100-percent a Phil move.
BECK: The other name that I heard was in there quite a bit, maybe not universally, but there was certainly was discussion of him, a lot of the staff really liked Donovan Mitchell.
BEGLEY: Absolutely. No question.
BECK: I heard there were concerns about Dennis Smith from a medical standpoint, there were some things... you never know with these situations... agents withholding things because they don't want you to draft a guy, or they... I believe there was a lack of access to medical records.
BEGLEY: Yep.
BECK: That had been out there. It's never as simple as, well, Phil saw this guy as a great triangle guy, there were other people around the league who said, triangle or no triangle, Ntikikina is a legit point guard.
The Knicks eventually drafted Ntilikina instead.


http://www.givemesport.com/1105366-dennis-smith-jr-did-not-give-knicks-medical-records-as-it-considered-him-in-draft

Im surprised they didn't take Mitchell he was a little more polished offensively and brought much of the same defensive effort Frank brings. I wonder if they could do it again if they would make the same pick

They loved Mitchell and worked him out twice. The question was if Mitchell's a PG or not. He's having an amazing rookie year, NOT playing PG.
Part of the value of what Frank brings as PG is if a guy like Mitchell is available next year you dont hesitate to get him even if you have concerns about his ability to play PG at the next level. Mitchell and Frank would look fantastic together in the same backcourt. He reminds me of Avery Bradley a lot and thats compliment.

Mitchell was also ranked behind Frank in pretty much every draft analysis, mock, etc....

Wait, wasn't Frank just learning the PG position as well? Think Mitchell was also considered too ball dominant by Knicks. Yet Phil loved Rose? Smh

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1/1/2018  6:40 PM
nixluva wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Donavan Mitchell is better than both.

I'm good with Frank though. Frank had quietly been evolving with his own offense.

I was high on DM but it does matter that he’s 21 vs Nitty at 19. 2 more years of development is a LOT.

yeah about 22 months, Mitchell is physically filled out. Has a great powerful build, Frank is taller and weighs at least 20 pounds less. If Frank gets to 215-220 maybe he looks a little more like Mitchell. 2 years of weight training in the offseason, he might get there

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Dennis Smith Jr. wouldnt give the Knicks a physical... there you go, done deal
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