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I'd re-sign KOQ now
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Bonn1997
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12/30/2017  9:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/30/2017  10:00 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:If Kanter and KOQ were free agents Kanter would get paid way more than KOQ by every team in the league because he is a better player, not to mention younger. KOQ is a nice guy to have come off your bench but he would be severely exposed if anyone relied on him for heavy minutes regularly.

Of course he would get paid less. We're keeping his minutes down, which deflates his numbers. The whole point is that he is a better value. The purpose of trying to figure out a player's market value is to figure out who will be a steal, not to inform yourself about how good a player is. There are much better ways to do that.
We're not artificially keeping KOQ's minutes down. He's playing the minutes and role to maximize his effectiveness.

So you resign KOQ who is a "steal." Who are you signing to play the other 30+ minutes? You think you're getting a "steal" to fill that gap and produce like Kanter? Or do you plan to sign a multitude of "steal" centers and just throw bargain basement big men in the game each playing around 15 minutes per?

KOQ is not an NBA starting center.

I think the problem here is a forced comparison between a starter and bench player. To Bonnie's point KOQ is better value. The point we were making is he is not a starter and both are correct. My point was we can't pay a guy to be our backup center with Noah already on the books while not getting yet another starting center at which point we are getting a "steal" we don't need. Basically the Noah situation sets the bar higher for KOQ perhaps unfairly. But it is what it is.


You need goood value contracts. Then you have effective players who are also trade assets.
Noah is a sunk cost. If he's going to play zero mpg, it doesn't matter what position he "plays." If he was a 72 mil shooting guard who was getting zero mpg, would your thinking change?

Even if we accept your reasoning, Kanter is a bad (if not worse) option for starting center too. So we'd have to trade both and look elsewhere.

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knickscity
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12/30/2017  11:55 AM
All these guys are placeholders until Porzingis can actually man the position. No need to invest in the center spot. Put Oquinn on the trade block get assets if possible, same with Kanter. Play Noah some, and sign a cheaper big for defensive purposes.
meloshouldgo
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12/30/2017  8:23 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Welpee wrote:If Kanter and KOQ were free agents Kanter would get paid way more than KOQ by every team in the league because he is a better player, not to mention younger. KOQ is a nice guy to have come off your bench but he would be severely exposed if anyone relied on him for heavy minutes regularly.

Of course he would get paid less. We're keeping his minutes down, which deflates his numbers. The whole point is that he is a better value. The purpose of trying to figure out a player's market value is to figure out who will be a steal, not to inform yourself about how good a player is. There are much better ways to do that.
We're not artificially keeping KOQ's minutes down. He's playing the minutes and role to maximize his effectiveness.

So you resign KOQ who is a "steal." Who are you signing to play the other 30+ minutes? You think you're getting a "steal" to fill that gap and produce like Kanter? Or do you plan to sign a multitude of "steal" centers and just throw bargain basement big men in the game each playing around 15 minutes per?

KOQ is not an NBA starting center.

I think the problem here is a forced comparison between a starter and bench player. To Bonnie's point KOQ is better value. The point we were making is he is not a starter and both are correct. My point was we can't pay a guy to be our backup center with Noah already on the books while not getting yet another starting center at which point we are getting a "steal" we don't need. Basically the Noah situation sets the bar higher for KOQ perhaps unfairly. But it is what it is.


You need goood value contracts. Then you have effective players who are also trade assets.
Noah is a sunk cost. If he's going to play zero mpg, it doesn't matter what position he "plays." If he was a 72 mil shooting guard who was getting zero mpg, would your thinking change?

Even if we accept your reasoning, Kanter is a bad (if not worse) option for starting center too. So we'd have to trade both and look elsewhere.

Kanter is a worse starting center than KOQ? Doesn't compute. Noah will have to play and will have to play back up center there's no reason why he can't do that.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Panos
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1/7/2018  10:17 PM
Bump.
Panos
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1/7/2018  10:23 PM
Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.
BRIGGS
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1/7/2018  10:42 PM
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

He was really really good tonight the C position had a 30-30 game I believe

Nalod
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1/8/2018  8:22 AM
KOQ game is really come on this year. To my eye, he works best with Frank.
Perhaps the lack of triangle has really benefited him.
We should resign him after each good game!!!
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
martin
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1/8/2018  11:42 AM
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

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BRIGGS
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1/8/2018  12:07 PM
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

If Kyle would take around 7mm--I would love to keep him. Hes a grizzled NBA vet who plays very good defense but does a little bit of everything quite well. Hes on our team and the continuity is also a factor. Hes good enough to step in and start 40 games if needed. If we waived and stretched Noah--I think that would pay atleast half of KOQ's 7mm price tag--if it went above 7mm than Id probably pass.

fishmike
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1/8/2018  12:22 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

If Kyle would take around 7mm--I would love to keep him. Hes a grizzled NBA vet who plays very good defense but does a little bit of everything quite well. Hes on our team and the continuity is also a factor. Hes good enough to step in and start 40 games if needed. If we waived and stretched Noah--I think that would pay atleast half of KOQ's 7mm price tag--if it went above 7mm than Id probably pass.

why would KOQ take less than the full MLE which he will certainly at 27yo get offers for and he's certainly worth.
Melo is ranked 38 on defense. Probably one of the best PF defenders in the league -HofstraBBall (1/24/2018)
Bonn1997
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1/8/2018  12:25 PM
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?


2.9 TOs is not bad if you're giving 4.3 assists. Usually only PGs have a better ratio than that. Many SGs don't. The fouls are not good but no one is suggesting playing him 36 min or paying him like a 36 min player. So we don't have to worry about him fouling out.
BRIGGS
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1/8/2018  12:44 PM
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

If Kyle would take around 7mm--I would love to keep him. Hes a grizzled NBA vet who plays very good defense but does a little bit of everything quite well. Hes on our team and the continuity is also a factor. Hes good enough to step in and start 40 games if needed. If we waived and stretched Noah--I think that would pay atleast half of KOQ's 7mm price tag--if it went above 7mm than Id probably pass.

why would KOQ take less than the full MLE which he will certainly at 27yo get offers for and he's certainly worth.

the mle is 4 years 40mm I believe--someone might give it to him but I hope not 7mma year for Oquinn is not a bad offer. Ill give Barton 4 years 40mm$

fishmike
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1/8/2018  1:05 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

If Kyle would take around 7mm--I would love to keep him. Hes a grizzled NBA vet who plays very good defense but does a little bit of everything quite well. Hes on our team and the continuity is also a factor. Hes good enough to step in and start 40 games if needed. If we waived and stretched Noah--I think that would pay atleast half of KOQ's 7mm price tag--if it went above 7mm than Id probably pass.

why would KOQ take less than the full MLE which he will certainly at 27yo get offers for and he's certainly worth.

the mle is 4 years 40mm I believe--someone might give it to him but I hope not 7mma year for Oquinn is not a bad offer. Ill give Barton 4 years 40mm$

You want Kanter back, you want KOQ back and moving away from Willy is what has hurt the team. Can you prioritize what you would LIKE to do with the center position? Barton is a terrible signing. Thats a guy you add when your already a deep playoff team and you need depth. Knicks should be looking to Dotson to bring what Barton brings, or another guy they draft. At 27-28 Barton makes no sense here.

We are rebuilding remember? Goals should be to add long term pieces, not stop gap players like Barton. Resigning a guy like KOQ *may* make sense for continuity especially if other guys end up being used in another trade.

Melo is ranked 38 on defense. Probably one of the best PF defenders in the league -HofstraBBall (1/24/2018)
BRIGGS
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1/8/2018  2:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/8/2018  2:30 PM
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

If Kyle would take around 7mm--I would love to keep him. Hes a grizzled NBA vet who plays very good defense but does a little bit of everything quite well. Hes on our team and the continuity is also a factor. Hes good enough to step in and start 40 games if needed. If we waived and stretched Noah--I think that would pay atleast half of KOQ's 7mm price tag--if it went above 7mm than Id probably pass.

why would KOQ take less than the full MLE which he will certainly at 27yo get offers for and he's certainly worth.

the mle is 4 years 40mm I believe--someone might give it to him but I hope not 7mma year for Oquinn is not a bad offer. Ill give Barton 4 years 40mm$

You want Kanter back, you want KOQ back and moving away from Willy is what has hurt the team. Can you prioritize what you would LIKE to do with the center position? Barton is a terrible signing. Thats a guy you add when your already a deep playoff team and you need depth. Knicks should be looking to Dotson to bring what Barton brings, or another guy they draft. At 27-28 Barton makes no sense here.

We are rebuilding remember? Goals should be to add long term pieces, not stop gap players like Barton. Resigning a guy like KOQ *may* make sense for continuity especially if other guys end up being used in another trade.

What s done with Willy is done--the Knicks poo pooed him and looke for extra wins---so no high lottery. Of course he can still be a part of this under many scenarios. What is the Knicks direction with Willy--that is a complete mystery.

My top priority if Im the Knicks --get me cap space so I can get Barton and Thomas. The Nets are a good dumping ground and they have no pick. Id be willing to sacrifice our 12-15 pick for 17mm in cap space+ Dinwiddie. If I can add Thomas Dinwiddie and Barton--I made great use of the draft.

fishmike
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1/8/2018  2:52 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.

It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

If Kyle would take around 7mm--I would love to keep him. Hes a grizzled NBA vet who plays very good defense but does a little bit of everything quite well. Hes on our team and the continuity is also a factor. Hes good enough to step in and start 40 games if needed. If we waived and stretched Noah--I think that would pay atleast half of KOQ's 7mm price tag--if it went above 7mm than Id probably pass.

why would KOQ take less than the full MLE which he will certainly at 27yo get offers for and he's certainly worth.

the mle is 4 years 40mm I believe--someone might give it to him but I hope not 7mma year for Oquinn is not a bad offer. Ill give Barton 4 years 40mm$

You want Kanter back, you want KOQ back and moving away from Willy is what has hurt the team. Can you prioritize what you would LIKE to do with the center position? Barton is a terrible signing. Thats a guy you add when your already a deep playoff team and you need depth. Knicks should be looking to Dotson to bring what Barton brings, or another guy they draft. At 27-28 Barton makes no sense here.

We are rebuilding remember? Goals should be to add long term pieces, not stop gap players like Barton. Resigning a guy like KOQ *may* make sense for continuity especially if other guys end up being used in another trade.

What s done with Willy is done--the Knicks poo pooed him and looke for extra wins---so no high lottery. Of course he can still be a part of this under many scenarios. What is the Knicks direction with Willy--that is a complete mystery.

My top priority if Im the Knicks --get me cap space so I can get Barton and Thomas. The Nets are a good dumping ground and they have no pick. Id be willing to sacrifice our 12-15 pick for 17mm in cap space+ Dinwiddie. If I can add Thomas Dinwiddie and Barton--I made great use of the draft.

A role player SF and a 30 year old 5'9 player who has already peeked with a better team. Dude this is the worst scenario possible. Terrible. Will Barton and Isiah Thomas. These guys arent even young.

The ONLY free agent worth spending big money on is Paul George. When he's off the shelf continue to focus on building from within.

Melo is ranked 38 on defense. Probably one of the best PF defenders in the league -HofstraBBall (1/24/2018)
Panos
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1/8/2018  8:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/8/2018  8:32 PM
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.
It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

Yes, Martin, i would say he's doing quite well in the role of primary backup right now. Very productive stat stuffer in limited minutes. I can't explain the negative plus/minus. He doesn't seem to be a defensive liability to me. What am i missing?
Then, there is like this schizophrenic reaction to my saying to re-sign O'Quinn, just as I've seen to discussions of signing/re-signing other players. Like "he is going to command" such and such salary on the one hand and "he's not worth it his market value" on the other.
First of all, i never said to sign him regardless of the price. I said the front office should be talking to his agent to see if they can get a decent deal done now, before the off-season.
Then back to the schizophrenia, it just doesn't make sense. Players that are perceived as good, get paid money. Why would O'Quinn command a salary that he is not worth on the market? What powers of illusion does he have to "fool" execs into giving him a bigger salary than the market commands? If he is just getting the market rate, well why wouldn't we pay it? We'll have to pay someone else for that role anyway.

BigRedDog
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1/8/2018  9:39 PM
Panos wrote:
martin wrote:
Panos wrote:Tonight : 15 pts, 6 of 7, 11 RB, 3 assists, 1 BLK in 22 mins.
It's a nice stat line. Also, the biggest negative +/- for the team against an opponent that has a super weak front line.

KOQ per 36 includes 6.1 fouls, 4.3 assits for 2.9 TOs ...coming off bench.

Panos, do you consider KOQ a player you could see having solid minutes off bench for a deep playoff team? For me, no. I could see him as the second big off the bench as the backup to the backup big.

If you do resign KOQ, what's the sweetspot #'s (per year and how many years) where he could be a building block player on the Knicks but also very tradeable if he is indeed only considered a temporary player that you need to upgrade when playoffs happen?

Yes, Martin, i would say he's doing quite well in the role of primary backup right now. Very productive stat stuffer in limited minutes. I can't explain the negative plus/minus. He doesn't seem to be a defensive liability to me. What am i missing?
Then, there is like this schizophrenic reaction to my saying to re-sign O'Quinn, just as I've seen to discussions of signing/re-signing other players. Like "he is going to command" such and such salary on the one hand and "he's not worth it his market value" on the other.
First of all, i never said to sign him regardless of the price. I said the front office should be talking to his agent to see if they can get a decent deal done now, before the off-season.
Then back to the schizophrenia, it just doesn't make sense. Players that are perceived as good, get paid money. Why would O'Quinn command a salary that he is not worth on the market? What powers of illusion does he have to "fool" execs into giving him a bigger salary than the market commands? If he is just getting the market rate, well why wouldn't we pay it? We'll have to pay someone else for that role anyway.

Because you don't need 4 or 5 centers on a team. Trade KOQ and play Willy who is on a rookie contract. KOQ is fools gold. He plays well in a few games and people say "pay him". But then he sucks for awhile. He is a backup! Doesn't have the size to be a starter. Most of his good games are against bad front court teams. Never shows up against a good big man. Makes at least 2-3 boneheaded plays every game. Ex. Went over the back on an offensive rebound with the Knicks in the penalty. Hornacheck was in the background livid with him. How many moving screens does he get? Learn how to set a screen! Unfortunately I heard not many teams interested in him. View him as a backup. Why do u think Willy is drawing much more trade interest? Not just the salary. Willy has a much higher ceiling.

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
GustavBahler
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1/9/2018  10:01 AM
The longer KOQ is here, the more I get that Anthony Mason vibe from him. Its just bad luck (in a manner of speaking) that we're overloaded in the frontcourt, and Noah's deal eats up a lot of the cap.

Id be surprised if Burke provides more than a sugar rush for the team. O'Quinn is a great solution for a contender needing frontcourt help. The ability to find teammates is a very big selling point for elite teams in a playoff hunt. A low first round pick, a PG upgrade, this would be the time to make that move.

MS
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1/9/2018  12:11 PM
It's interesting more teams aren't after him.

He could make a big difference for OKC, Cleveland, Washington, Portland. It's a shame with the logjam we have because he is a true professional and a great guy to have on a team. He does everything pretty well and it's a shame to lose him.

Phil really ****ed us with Noah and Thomas.

fishmike
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1/9/2018  12:34 PM
MS wrote:It's interesting more teams aren't after him.

He could make a big difference for OKC, Cleveland, Washington, Portland. It's a shame with the logjam we have because he is a true professional and a great guy to have on a team. He does everything pretty well and it's a shame to lose him.

Phil really ****ed us with Noah and Thomas.

how do you know those teams havent called?
Melo is ranked 38 on defense. Probably one of the best PF defenders in the league -HofstraBBall (1/24/2018)
I'd re-sign KOQ now

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