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I'd re-sign KOQ now
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GustavBahler
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12/28/2017  11:10 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:I would trade KOQ for best offer. He is fools gold. Never plays well against good teams.Has some good games , teases you and then sucks. Backup at best, taking minutes away from Willy who has a much higher ceiling and lower salary.

Any idea why the team's net rating is about 10 points better with KOQ than Kanter on the court?

Are other players subbing in with KOQ to get those numbers? Is it just KOQ or the second unit as well?

AUTOADVERT
Welpee
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12/28/2017  11:12 AM
BigRedDog wrote:I would trade KOQ for best offer. He is fools gold. Never plays well against good teams.Has some good games , teases you and then sucks. Backup at best, taking minutes away from Willy who has a much higher ceiling and lower salary.
Would you roll the dice on a KOQ for Mario Hezonja deal?
Bonn1997
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12/28/2017  12:57 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:I would trade KOQ for best offer. He is fools gold. Never plays well against good teams.Has some good games , teases you and then sucks. Backup at best, taking minutes away from Willy who has a much higher ceiling and lower salary.

Any idea why the team's net rating is about 10 points better with KOQ than Kanter on the court?

Are other players subbing in with KOQ to get those numbers? Is it just KOQ or the second unit as well?


Probably not. No one else in the 2nd unit even has a positive on/off differential.
Knixkik
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12/28/2017  2:10 PM
Welpee wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:I would trade KOQ for best offer. He is fools gold. Never plays well against good teams.Has some good games , teases you and then sucks. Backup at best, taking minutes away from Willy who has a much higher ceiling and lower salary.
Would you roll the dice on a KOQ for Mario Hezonja deal?

Absolutely.

Knixkik
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12/28/2017  2:16 PM
It's easy to see the writing on the wall. KOQ is the most likely to be moved by the trade deadline. Management won't tell Hornacek to play Willy but will make it happen as soon as possible. The only reason they haven't moved KOQ yet is likely because there is a surplus of available bigs around the league and his value isn't that high. Willy is on a minor cost controlled contract the next 2 years and KOQ is a free agent. Management wants money available the next 2 years for free agency and Willy is a very cheap, rotation caliber big man already in place. Noah, for what it's worth, is still a quality 3rd string center for the next 2 1/2 years and would only be stretched out if they needed the cap space. Otherwise he will remain on the roster and only play when there is an injury. Kanter, Hernangomez, and Noah, with KP playing 10-12 mpg at center nightly is most likely the center depth for at least the next 2 seasons and that's fine.
meloshouldgo
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12/28/2017  6:31 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Panos
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12/28/2017  6:42 PM
Knixkik wrote:It's easy to see the writing on the wall. KOQ is the most likely to be moved by the trade deadline. Management won't tell Hornacek to play Willy but will make it happen as soon as possible. The only reason they haven't moved KOQ yet is likely because there is a surplus of available bigs around the league and his value isn't that high. Willy is on a minor cost controlled contract the next 2 years and KOQ is a free agent. Management wants money available the next 2 years for free agency and Willy is a very cheap, rotation caliber big man already in place. Noah, for what it's worth, is still a quality 3rd string center for the next 2 1/2 years and would only be stretched out if they needed the cap space. Otherwise he will remain on the roster and only play when there is an injury. Kanter, Hernangomez, and Noah, with KP playing 10-12 mpg at center nightly is most likely the center depth for at least the next 2 seasons and that's fine.

Writing on the wall? What writing on the wall?
Are you an insider privy to a wall in the Bowels of MSG, that we mortals don't have access to?

Bonn1997
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12/28/2017  6:56 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.

meloshouldgo
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12/28/2017  7:23 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.

If you are arguing he is the best player on our bench right now, then the numbers show that. Now are you willing to pay him alongside Kanter while we are still stuck with Noah? If not what are we discussing?

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Panos
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12/28/2017  7:41 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.

What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.
He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.
If you are arguing he is the best player on our bench right now, then the numbers show that. Now are you willing to pay him alongside Kanter while we are still stuck with Noah? If not what are we discussing?

The idea is Kanter OR KOQ, i didn't say both.

meloshouldgo
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12/28/2017  8:15 PM
Panos wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.

What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.
He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.
If you are arguing he is the best player on our bench right now, then the numbers show that. Now are you willing to pay him alongside Kanter while we are still stuck with Noah? If not what are we discussing?

The idea is Kanter OR KOQ, i didn't say both.

So you would re-sign KOQ who will never be a starting 5, over a borderline starter who is playing well plus brings intangibles like being the heart and soul of the team? How many second chance points does Kanter crate? How can you replace that? And if the actually gave him the ball more often he would be a 20/15 guy in his sleep. Switch Kanter and KOQ for starter and backup - what do you think would happen? Kanter would explode, KOQ would disappear. KOQ hasn't exactly exploded as a backup and Kanter definitely hasn't disappeared.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Bonn1997
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12/28/2017  8:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/28/2017  8:22 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.

If you are arguing he is the best player on our bench right now, then the numbers show that. Now are you willing to pay him alongside Kanter while we are still stuck with Noah? If not what are we discussing?


Noah is a sunk cost. KOQ's contract will probably be better value than Kanter's. I'd rather spend the savings ($10 or 12 mil a year) at PG or SF.
Jmpasq
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12/28/2017  8:52 PM
Panos wrote:If I'm the Knicks, of try to resign KOQ right now, insurance against Kanter asking too much. I love his game, old skool Knicks grittty, plus soft hands and a good passer. I don't understand everyone wanting to get rid of him. If i can lock,him up for a decent deal, I'd extend him now.

No one wants to get rid of him its about the assets that have been dumped into bigs on the team
Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
meloshouldgo
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12/28/2017  10:56 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.

If you are arguing he is the best player on our bench right now, then the numbers show that. Now are you willing to pay him alongside Kanter while we are still stuck with Noah? If not what are we discussing?


Noah is a sunk cost. KOQ's contract will probably be better value than Kanter's. I'd rather spend the savings ($10 or 12 mil a year) at PG or SF.

Yes it's sunk cost, but KOQ can't start, not even for short stretches when Noah gets hurt. Aldridge just wasted him today, this will keep happening if he goes up against starting 4s and 5s.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
meloshouldgo
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12/28/2017  10:57 PM
Kanter is 4th in the league in offensive rebounding. He is first on terms of being a glue guy.
I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
BigRedDog
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12/28/2017  11:28 PM
Welpee wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:I would trade KOQ for best offer. He is fools gold. Never plays well against good teams.Has some good games , teases you and then sucks. Backup at best, taking minutes away from Willy who has a much higher ceiling and lower salary.
Would you roll the dice on a KOQ for Mario Hezonja deal?

100% I think Hezonja is a FA after this yr but we need his offense.

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
BigRedDog
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12/28/2017  11:32 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.

KOQ is fools gold. Doesn't play well against quality teams. Too short. He is a backup at best.Plays well for a few games then sucks for too many. Makes so many boneheaded plays. Not worth the money it will cost to keep him. Trade him plus opens up a spot for Willy. I think Will plays better with consistent minutes. You really think KOQ is a difference maker???

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
Bonn1997
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12/29/2017  5:56 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2017  6:19 AM
BigRedDog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.

KOQ is fools gold. Doesn't play well against quality teams. Too short. He is a backup at best.Plays well for a few games then sucks for too many. Makes so many boneheaded plays. Not worth the money it will cost to keep him. Trade him plus opens up a spot for Willy. I think Will plays better with consistent minutes. You really think KOQ is a difference maker???


It is foolish to think of any our centers as gold or even silver. Kanter has some strengths but is definitely fools gold or even fools silver. He is a very nice reserve but is not having the impact you need from a starter. With the on/off differential where it is (worst on team out of regular players), this is not the right role for him.

I still think KOQ is going to give us the best value. I am not suggesting paying him like a starter. A solid 6th man costs at least 8 to 10 mil a year and I think that's all it would take - just double what we gave Ron Baker. That's outstanding value.

You can say he's inconsistent but most of the bad performances are games where he got like 12 min. Inevitably there is random fluctuation in performance. You're asking him to never have a bad quarter!

meloshouldgo
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12/29/2017  9:34 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.

KOQ is fools gold. Doesn't play well against quality teams. Too short. He is a backup at best.Plays well for a few games then sucks for too many. Makes so many boneheaded plays. Not worth the money it will cost to keep him. Trade him plus opens up a spot for Willy. I think Will plays better with consistent minutes. You really think KOQ is a difference maker???


It is foolish to think of any our centers as gold or even silver. Kanter has some strengths but is definitely fools gold or even fools silver. He is a very nice reserve but is not having the impact you need from a starter. With the on/off differential where it is (worst on team out of regular players), this is not the right role for him.

I still think KOQ is going to give us the best value. I am not suggesting paying him like a starter. A solid 6th man costs at least 8 to 10 mil a year and I think that's all it would take - just double what we gave Ron Baker. That's outstanding value.

You can say he's inconsistent but most of the bad performances are games where he got like 12 min. Inevitably there is random fluctuation in performance. You're asking him to never have a bad quarter!

One guy is getting a block and a half a game against scrubs and bottom feeders. He is racking up a good plus/minus against them. The other has to play behind inefficient starters and go up against the best of the NBA. You want to keep KOQ over Kanter based on stats that don't accommodate for the quality of the opposition? Only one of them is too five in the NBA in any category.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Bonn1997
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12/29/2017  9:40 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2017  9:42 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
martin wrote:To what end to you extend KOQ? I don't like him as a player. Very good passer and rebounder in traffic. Gets blocks against second stringers.

Awful PnR defender and often just sits in the paint, and thus extra rebounds and blocked shots.

Always hesitates when completely wide open on offense when he should shoot immediately. Makes bonehead plays both offensively and defensively that breaks momentum.

Cannot defend stretch offensive players. Is not a stretch player himself out to 3. Is an undersized 5 and a slow 4.

To what end do you extend KOQ? To stay mediocre? To trade him later? What's his replacement opportunity cost?

For me, do I see him as a long term piece on a deep playoff team? No. 9th man on a cost controlled contract for a playoff team? Yes. That's it.


What is the goal if we don't keep him? Is the plan to tank? The only time we consistently outscore opponents is with him in.

Our bench consistently outscores other team's benches. He is part of that bench, but his value is being overstated. He is really bad defensively against bigger players and we can't sign him along with Enes and Noah. If you want Kanter out that's different, I don't think I agree with that.

He's the only bench player with a positive on/off differential.

KOQ is fools gold. Doesn't play well against quality teams. Too short. He is a backup at best.Plays well for a few games then sucks for too many. Makes so many boneheaded plays. Not worth the money it will cost to keep him. Trade him plus opens up a spot for Willy. I think Will plays better with consistent minutes. You really think KOQ is a difference maker???


It is foolish to think of any our centers as gold or even silver. Kanter has some strengths but is definitely fools gold or even fools silver. He is a very nice reserve but is not having the impact you need from a starter. With the on/off differential where it is (worst on team out of regular players), this is not the right role for him.

I still think KOQ is going to give us the best value. I am not suggesting paying him like a starter. A solid 6th man costs at least 8 to 10 mil a year and I think that's all it would take - just double what we gave Ron Baker. That's outstanding value.

You can say he's inconsistent but most of the bad performances are games where he got like 12 min. Inevitably there is random fluctuation in performance. You're asking him to never have a bad quarter!

One guy is getting a block and a half a game against scrubs and bottom feeders. He is racking up a good plus/minus against them. The other has to play behind inefficient starters and go up against the best of the NBA. You want to keep KOQ over Kanter based on stats that don't accommodate for the quality of the opposition? Only one of them is too five in the NBA in any category.


The 10 point differential favoring the sub is really rare. It can't be just level of opponent. It would be more common then. But it's not just the plus/minus that makes me prefer KOQ. It's also my expectation that he'll cost half as much.
I'd re-sign KOQ now

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