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Enes Kanter: "The best acqusition since Kristaps Porzingis."
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NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
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12/27/2017  2:03 PM
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.

Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy. The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

NardDogNation... what is was your expectation? Jmpasq would have traded KP for picks and just started over. Phili has been terrible. You covet Embiid? My god.. imagine if the Knick had signed him to that contract after playing 30 NBA games in 4 years. You would be behind that? Carter Williams, OK4, Noel, Turner... can we PLEASE NOT duplicate anything Phili has done?

Perry's success model is going to be what he did with Dumar's Pistons. You might see a Rip Hamilton but he's going to look to build a long strong team that can shut you down. Pistons won a title. Was it via tanking? What team tanked their way to a title?

My expectation was an actual rebuild and not some push to augment a supporting cast that can only muster .500-ish basketball. I understand this is the best we've played in some time and you're excited about it but this is fool's gold. We've had a favorable schedule that featured a league-leading number of home games yet you would want me to believe that this will be the norm throughout the season.

It won't. And when the bottom falls out, we'll be past the deadline and miss yet another window to potentially recoup the kinds of assets that can actually help us build a sustainable winner. You're pointing to the Pistons as some kind of success story for Perry but was he around for the Ben Gordon, Charlie Villaneuva signings? Because those types of players, as well as the contracts they recieved relative to the market is errily reminiscent of the types of players we've acquired and the contracts they have, which is certainly no model for success.

As for Hinkie, he made picks and if they were errors, he quickly rectified them. Yes, Michael Carter Williams turned into a bust but Hinkie still flipped him for a Lakers pick that ultimately lead to the Sixers acquiring the no.1 overall pick in this stacked draft. And that's something you'd admonish him for?

AUTOADVERT
NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
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12/27/2017  2:07 PM
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

martin
Posts: 47559
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12/27/2017  2:37 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

Use google, go look up what Perry has said over and over and over again, have a drink, relax and smile.

OR, wallow in willful ignorance

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Nalod
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12/27/2017  2:55 PM
Where was Curry, Thompson and Draymond drafted?
Deangelo Russell, Oka4 drafted? Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennet? SHyt happens. Sometimes its bad.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
fishmike
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12/27/2017  3:21 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

Simply not true. The Knicks and their rotation is much younger this year. They literally used every method to get youngs... trade, FA and draft. The the 19 year old they drafted is in the rotation. They got a pair of 25 year olds for a 33 year old Melo. They let Holiday (28 years old) go and brought Hardaway back who is 3 years younger and its too bad he got hurt because he was certainly looking like a core piece that was just added.

Is 25 to old to rebuild with? Because we added 3 very good 25 year old player to the roster and they look good next to KP, who is showing every bit that he is a star player.

It most certainly looks like they are rebuilding this roster. Just not the way you want them too. You keep talking about Kris Middleton. He's older than THjr, McD and Kanter and he was 2nd rounder. For all we know Dotson is better. He was drafted literally to be Middleton. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but it certainly appears that you choose to simple ignore what doesnt fall into your context of rebuilding.

Your talking about tanking, not rebuilding. Look at the Piston's teams that went to 4 straight conf finals. Those teams built through tanking? Rebuild does not = tanking.

NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
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12/27/2017  6:21 PM
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

Then articulate the vision for all of us that's blind to what is going on.

Hey look.... google "scott+perry+knicks+quotes"

https://www.google.com/search?q=scott+perry+knicks+quotes

and there are about 10 articles that pop up saying "Perry outlines his plans... etc"

Maybe just take it from the GM of the Knicks? What you are doing is called "willful denial"

I read the first 4-5 articles and all they amounted to were fluff pieces, which I've come to expect from GM's in the league. I'm not sure how they offer you much solace. But the mere fact that he thinks that all this team needs moving forward are middling first round picks, is indictive of someone who thinks he's closer to a finished product than someone involved in a rebuild. That to me is alarming because if you think Enes Kanter will be the 2nd best player on a contender, you're living in a dream world.

NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
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Joined: 5/7/2013
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12/27/2017  6:25 PM
Welpee wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.

Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy. The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

NardDogNation... what is was your expectation? Jmpasq would have traded KP for picks and just started over. Phili has been terrible. You covet Embiid? My god.. imagine if the Knick had signed him to that contract after playing 30 NBA games in 4 years. You would be behind that? Carter Williams, OK4, Noel, Turner... can we PLEASE NOT duplicate anything Phili has done?

Perry's success model is going to be what he did with Dumar's Pistons. You might see a Rip Hamilton but he's going to look to build a long strong team that can shut you down. Pistons won a title. Was it via tanking? What team tanked their way to a title?

I agree. This love fest people have with Philly's tanking process is head scratching, not to mention folks thinking that's the only way to build a winner. With Philly it's almost like the blind squirrel theory. Stay bad for 5 years and draft a bunch of players, a couple are bound to be good, though it hasn't worked out well for Sacramento.

When did I ever say that we should outright tank? Even if we wanted to tank, a healthy Porzingis this far into his development, is automatically going to put you around 30 wins. That being the case, we should be looking to add more draft picks and unearth talent in the G-League. That's not tanking but it certainly wouls be the hallmarks of a rebuild.

NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
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12/27/2017  6:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/27/2017  7:18 PM
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

Use google, go look up what Perry has said over and over and over again, have a drink, relax and smile.

OR, wallow in willful ignorance

Action speaks louder than words. Perry says the right things- especially on the heels of Phil Jackson- but I haven't seen anything definitive out of the front office to suggest they intend to follow any of it through or be fundamentally different from other regimes.

Call that willful ignorance but if you don't ban me, I'll be here later in the season to see if my skepticism is justified. Just take a look at our current road record. Look at recent history with Porzingis's play late in the season. They don't bode well for late season success. And if the sky falls as I predict, what would have been the point of playing ourselves out of a competitive pick and sacrificing opportunities to develop youth?

NardDogNation
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12/27/2017  6:37 PM
Nalod wrote:Where was Curry, Thompson and Draymond drafted?
Deangelo Russell, Oka4 drafted? Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennet? SHyt happens. Sometimes its bad.

You are taking the exception to the rule and pretending that it is in fact the rule. That's not nuanced reasoning, it is just wishful thinking.

NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
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12/27/2017  6:51 PM
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

Simply not true. The Knicks and their rotation is much younger this year. They literally used every method to get youngs... trade, FA and draft. The the 19 year old they drafted is in the rotation. They got a pair of 25 year olds for a 33 year old Melo. They let Holiday (28 years old) go and brought Hardaway back who is 3 years younger and its too bad he got hurt because he was certainly looking like a core piece that was just added.

Is 25 to old to rebuild with? Because we added 3 very good 25 year old player to the roster and they look good next to KP, who is showing every bit that he is a star player.

It most certainly looks like they are rebuilding this roster. Just not the way you want them too. You keep talking about Kris Middleton. He's older than THjr, McD and Kanter and he was 2nd rounder. For all we know Dotson is better. He was drafted literally to be Middleton. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but it certainly appears that you choose to simple ignore what doesnt fall into your context of rebuilding.

Your talking about tanking, not rebuilding. Look at the Piston's teams that went to 4 straight conf finals. Those teams built through tanking? Rebuild does not = tanking.

NBA Players age like milk. Players have a u-shaped curve in the NBA. They get better as they reach their 25th birthday. They peak around 25-26. After that they slowly decline as they approach 30 and after 32 they rapidly decline.

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

The aforementioned is a point that has been validated by most Sport Science platforms. This isn't to say that we need to hit the reset button everytime our core turns 26 years old- that'd be foolish. But you are kidding yourself if you think Hardaway Jr and Enes Kanter- both of whom are currently their best versions of themselves- can be the 2nd and 3rd best players on a contender. If all you want are first and second round exits, then I could see why you're thrilled with our M.O. I personally want a perennial title contender and this is definitely not the way you build one.

As for the fact that you keep bringing up the 2004 Pistons as a blueprint for success, what does it say that you need to reach back 14 years to find an example that proves your point? And do you remember that Joe Dumars tried to implore that same strategy in 2008? How well did that strategy work out for them?

fishmike
Posts: 48816
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
12/28/2017  9:42 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

Simply not true. The Knicks and their rotation is much younger this year. They literally used every method to get youngs... trade, FA and draft. The the 19 year old they drafted is in the rotation. They got a pair of 25 year olds for a 33 year old Melo. They let Holiday (28 years old) go and brought Hardaway back who is 3 years younger and its too bad he got hurt because he was certainly looking like a core piece that was just added.

Is 25 to old to rebuild with? Because we added 3 very good 25 year old player to the roster and they look good next to KP, who is showing every bit that he is a star player.

It most certainly looks like they are rebuilding this roster. Just not the way you want them too. You keep talking about Kris Middleton. He's older than THjr, McD and Kanter and he was 2nd rounder. For all we know Dotson is better. He was drafted literally to be Middleton. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but it certainly appears that you choose to simple ignore what doesnt fall into your context of rebuilding.

Your talking about tanking, not rebuilding. Look at the Piston's teams that went to 4 straight conf finals. Those teams built through tanking? Rebuild does not = tanking.

NBA Players age like milk. Players have a u-shaped curve in the NBA. They get better as they reach their 25th birthday. They peak around 25-26. After that they slowly decline as they approach 30 and after 32 they rapidly decline.

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

The aforementioned is a point that has been validated by most Sport Science platforms. This isn't to say that we need to hit the reset button everytime our core turns 26 years old- that'd be foolish. But you are kidding yourself if you think Hardaway Jr and Enes Kanter- both of whom are currently their best versions of themselves- can be the 2nd and 3rd best players on a contender. If all you want are first and second round exits, then I could see why you're thrilled with our M.O. I personally want a perennial title contender and this is definitely not the way you build one.

As for the fact that you keep bringing up the 2004 Pistons as a blueprint for success, what does it say that you need to reach back 14 years to find an example that proves your point? And do you remember that Joe Dumars tried to implore that same strategy in 2008? How well did that strategy work out for them?

your whole argument is based under assumptions. OK... forget Pistons. Lets go the GS route. We can draft our Draymond Green this year to go with Frank and KP our two lottery picks. GS won last year. Is that close enough of a blue print. There.. its solved.

Kanter
Frank
KP
McD
Dotson
Willy
Baker
THjr

This roster and rotation is loaded with guys who are going to get better.

NardDogNation, your whole arguement against what Perry is doing is that he's building around a .500 ish mediocre crew which is utter bullship. We dont know what or how good this crew is. We know when at full strength they can compete and beat good NBA teams, but they are not consistent.

I dont care about Phili. They have sucked so bad for so long their best player is already on a max deal after playing 34 games in the NBA.

You act as if I am like whoop whoop we are here the Knicks are back. I picked them to be better than they were last year and win 38 games. They are one track for that. I am happy as we are developing young talent while leaning on a couple vets for leadership, especially on defense. Your talent is wasted if not developed right and they are finally doing that. THAT is what I am happy about, not the record.

Which teams tanked their way to a title? Lebron's teams didnt. Spurs didnt with Manu/Parker/Lenard all non lottery picks. Did GSW tank? Curry was hurt a lot early which helped but they never tanked adding guys like Ellis and David Lee. They always tried to get better. So what blueprint are you working off of? Its pure fantasy. All tanking does is deflate the value of every player, ruin your morale and ensures your get to add great talent to your dysfunction every year.

I am good with the Knicks building a team that defends and doing it around a young core than can grow and is talented. If they play hard and lose these close games fine. This is how they learn and get better.

Welpee
Posts: 21991
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Joined: 1/22/2016
Member: #6239

12/28/2017  11:21 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/28/2017  11:21 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
Nalod wrote:Where was Curry, Thompson and Draymond drafted?
Deangelo Russell, Oka4 drafted? Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennet? SHyt happens. Sometimes its bad.

You are taking the exception to the rule and pretending that it is in fact the rule. That's not nuanced reasoning, it is just wishful thinking.

Do an analysis of all lottery picks and you'd be surprised the % who are busts/mediocre players/role players/good players who aren't franchise players. And you'd be complaining about a lot of the #1 picks too (like folks are complaining about KP). This fantasy of banking on drafting another Lebron or Duncan or Durant is truly like playing the real lottery. Counting entirely on luck is a risky way to build a team.
fishmike
Posts: 48816
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
12/28/2017  11:53 AM
Welpee wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Nalod wrote:Where was Curry, Thompson and Draymond drafted?
Deangelo Russell, Oka4 drafted? Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennet? SHyt happens. Sometimes its bad.

You are taking the exception to the rule and pretending that it is in fact the rule. That's not nuanced reasoning, it is just wishful thinking.

Do an analysis of all lottery picks and you'd be surprised the % who are busts/mediocre players/role players/good players who aren't franchise players. And you'd be complaining about a lot of the #1 picks too (like folks are complaining about KP). This fantasy of banking on drafting another Lebron or Duncan or Durant is truly like playing the real lottery. Counting entirely on luck is a risky way to build a team.
and there is no precedent for success. When the year is lost and there are 10 games and you hold guys out and give your G league players burn thats one thing. Purposely not improving the team? Such a fail.

Somehow the goal posts always get moved and the pro-tankers love to assume that you are "OK with this core" because we arent commited to winning 15 games for the next 3-4 years. Silly.

NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
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Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

12/29/2017  1:39 AM
Welpee wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Nalod wrote:Where was Curry, Thompson and Draymond drafted?
Deangelo Russell, Oka4 drafted? Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennet? SHyt happens. Sometimes its bad.

You are taking the exception to the rule and pretending that it is in fact the rule. That's not nuanced reasoning, it is just wishful thinking.

Do an analysis of all lottery picks and you'd be surprised the % who are busts/mediocre players/role players/good players who aren't franchise players. And you'd be complaining about a lot of the #1 picks too (like folks are complaining about KP). This fantasy of banking on drafting another Lebron or Duncan or Durant is truly like playing the real lottery. Counting entirely on luck is a risky way to build a team.

Have you done one? Because I think that it is pretty common knowledge that the higher you pick, the higher the probability your selection becomes an all-star.

http://www.nba.com/magic/gallery/cohen-8ball-history-picking-1-8-nba-draft-percentage-all-stars-1980

I'm not naive enough to think we'll pick an all-star by merely having a good pick but I do believe it is the most effective means of procuring one. Even if we only end up with a bunch of "decent" players, they can easily be packaged for a disgruntled star we could pair with Kristaps (e.g. Sabonis as part of a package for Paul George; Kris Dunn as part of a package for Jimmy Butler). So rather than splurge on overpriced veterans, I much rather utilize our cap space to acquire unsavory contracts paired with draft picks.

NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
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Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

12/29/2017  1:49 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2017  2:36 AM
fishmike wrote:
Welpee wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Nalod wrote:Where was Curry, Thompson and Draymond drafted?
Deangelo Russell, Oka4 drafted? Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennet? SHyt happens. Sometimes its bad.

You are taking the exception to the rule and pretending that it is in fact the rule. That's not nuanced reasoning, it is just wishful thinking.

Do an analysis of all lottery picks and you'd be surprised the % who are busts/mediocre players/role players/good players who aren't franchise players. And you'd be complaining about a lot of the #1 picks too (like folks are complaining about KP). This fantasy of banking on drafting another Lebron or Duncan or Durant is truly like playing the real lottery. Counting entirely on luck is a risky way to build a team.
and there is no precedent for success. When the year is lost and there are 10 games and you hold guys out and give your G league players burn thats one thing. Purposely not improving the team? Such a fail.

Somehow the goal posts always get moved and the pro-tankers love to assume that you are "OK with this core" because we arent commited to winning 15 games for the next 3-4 years. Silly.

When did I ever mention being a pro-tank advocate? For someone so pissy about people supposedly putting words in your mouth, you are most definitely guilty of doing exactly that.

And "there is no precedent for success"? Aside for the 2004 Pistons, can you name a team that won a title without drafting at least one of their core pieces in the lottery? And aside from those lottery picks, those teams were composed of several draftees that played key roles in the rotation. The Knicks, however, seem to be under the impression that they can buck the mold by throwing other teams re-threads together and somehow building a contender, which has no real precedent (aside for those 2004 Pistons). That of type strategy will not work!

NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

12/29/2017  2:32 AM
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

Simply not true. The Knicks and their rotation is much younger this year. They literally used every method to get youngs... trade, FA and draft. The the 19 year old they drafted is in the rotation. They got a pair of 25 year olds for a 33 year old Melo. They let Holiday (28 years old) go and brought Hardaway back who is 3 years younger and its too bad he got hurt because he was certainly looking like a core piece that was just added.

Is 25 to old to rebuild with? Because we added 3 very good 25 year old player to the roster and they look good next to KP, who is showing every bit that he is a star player.

It most certainly looks like they are rebuilding this roster. Just not the way you want them too. You keep talking about Kris Middleton. He's older than THjr, McD and Kanter and he was 2nd rounder. For all we know Dotson is better. He was drafted literally to be Middleton. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but it certainly appears that you choose to simple ignore what doesnt fall into your context of rebuilding.

Your talking about tanking, not rebuilding. Look at the Piston's teams that went to 4 straight conf finals. Those teams built through tanking? Rebuild does not = tanking.

NBA Players age like milk. Players have a u-shaped curve in the NBA. They get better as they reach their 25th birthday. They peak around 25-26. After that they slowly decline as they approach 30 and after 32 they rapidly decline.

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

The aforementioned is a point that has been validated by most Sport Science platforms. This isn't to say that we need to hit the reset button everytime our core turns 26 years old- that'd be foolish. But you are kidding yourself if you think Hardaway Jr and Enes Kanter- both of whom are currently their best versions of themselves- can be the 2nd and 3rd best players on a contender. If all you want are first and second round exits, then I could see why you're thrilled with our M.O. I personally want a perennial title contender and this is definitely not the way you build one.

As for the fact that you keep bringing up the 2004 Pistons as a blueprint for success, what does it say that you need to reach back 14 years to find an example that proves your point? And do you remember that Joe Dumars tried to implore that same strategy in 2008? How well did that strategy work out for them?

your whole argument is based under assumptions. OK... forget Pistons. Lets go the GS route. We can draft our Draymond Green this year to go with Frank and KP our two lottery picks. GS won last year. Is that close enough of a blue print. There.. its solved.

Kanter
Frank
KP
McD
Dotson
Willy
Baker
THjr

This roster and rotation is loaded with guys who are going to get better.

NardDogNation, your whole arguement against what Perry is doing is that he's building around a .500 ish mediocre crew which is utter bullship. We dont know what or how good this crew is. We know when at full strength they can compete and beat good NBA teams, but they are not consistent.

I dont care about Phili. They have sucked so bad for so long their best player is already on a max deal after playing 34 games in the NBA.

You act as if I am like whoop whoop we are here the Knicks are back. I picked them to be better than they were last year and win 38 games. They are one track for that. I am happy as we are developing young talent while leaning on a couple vets for leadership, especially on defense. Your talent is wasted if not developed right and they are finally doing that. THAT is what I am happy about, not the record.

Which teams tanked their way to a title? Lebron's teams didnt. Spurs didnt with Manu/Parker/Lenard all non lottery picks. Did GSW tank? Curry was hurt a lot early which helped but they never tanked adding guys like Ellis and David Lee. They always tried to get better. So what blueprint are you working off of? Its pure fantasy. All tanking does is deflate the value of every player, ruin your morale and ensures your get to add great talent to your dysfunction every year.

I am good with the Knicks building a team that defends and doing it around a young core than can grow and is talented. If they play hard and lose these close games fine. This is how they learn and get better.

Me pointing to established trends in the league are "assumptions" to you. But you pretending that Draymond Green is coming with our next pick and that we can follow the Warriors blueprint? Evidently that is sound fact in your book. Ok. Gotcha.

Let's also pretend that the Warriors blueprint did not include the cap flexibility to sign-and-trade for Andre "2015 Finals MVP" Igoudala and Kevin "I'm a Top 3 Player In the League" Durant- cap flexibility we won't possess for the next 3 seasons or so because of how badly we mangled our finances.

And yet you keep insisting that "we don't know how good this crew is (i.e. a potential is limitless)" and that we "can compete and beat good NBA teams", but what evidence is there of that? We have a point differential of +0.4, and are currently below .500 despite playing a softie schedule with a league leading number of games at home. If the engines of this "success" were novices in the league then you might be onto something. But guys like Enes Kanter is in his 7th season in the league; Courtney Lee is in his 10th season; Tim Hardaway Jr. is in his 5th; Kyle O'Quinn is in his 6th season, etc. These guys are what they are and the only hope for internal improvement (from guys that actually get time) can only come from Kristaps Porzingis and Frank Ntilikina. As good as they are, it is NOT enough to compete with the other up-and-coming teams in the league and none of the conference contenders. So feel free to keep up this fantasy that we're on the path to become some type of juggernaut but the reality is we more closely resemble the types of teams that a young franchise player wants to leave than a perennial contender.

And for the record, I'm no advocate of a tank but I do believe the kind of improvement we need can ONLY come from developing our youth and through the draft. Unfortunately, we are foregoing the option of developing the rest of our youth (e.g. Willy Hernangomez and Damyean Dotson) and don't have the flexibility to acquire additional first round picks. That is not a recipe for success.

Jmpasq
Posts: 23441
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/10/2012
Member: #4182

12/29/2017  6:02 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

Simply not true. The Knicks and their rotation is much younger this year. They literally used every method to get youngs... trade, FA and draft. The the 19 year old they drafted is in the rotation. They got a pair of 25 year olds for a 33 year old Melo. They let Holiday (28 years old) go and brought Hardaway back who is 3 years younger and its too bad he got hurt because he was certainly looking like a core piece that was just added.

Is 25 to old to rebuild with? Because we added 3 very good 25 year old player to the roster and they look good next to KP, who is showing every bit that he is a star player.

It most certainly looks like they are rebuilding this roster. Just not the way you want them too. You keep talking about Kris Middleton. He's older than THjr, McD and Kanter and he was 2nd rounder. For all we know Dotson is better. He was drafted literally to be Middleton. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but it certainly appears that you choose to simple ignore what doesnt fall into your context of rebuilding.

Your talking about tanking, not rebuilding. Look at the Piston's teams that went to 4 straight conf finals. Those teams built through tanking? Rebuild does not = tanking.

NBA Players age like milk. Players have a u-shaped curve in the NBA. They get better as they reach their 25th birthday. They peak around 25-26. After that they slowly decline as they approach 30 and after 32 they rapidly decline.

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

The aforementioned is a point that has been validated by most Sport Science platforms. This isn't to say that we need to hit the reset button everytime our core turns 26 years old- that'd be foolish. But you are kidding yourself if you think Hardaway Jr and Enes Kanter- both of whom are currently their best versions of themselves- can be the 2nd and 3rd best players on a contender. If all you want are first and second round exits, then I could see why you're thrilled with our M.O. I personally want a perennial title contender and this is definitely not the way you build one.

As for the fact that you keep bringing up the 2004 Pistons as a blueprint for success, what does it say that you need to reach back 14 years to find an example that proves your point? And do you remember that Joe Dumars tried to implore that same strategy in 2008? How well did that strategy work out for them?

your whole argument is based under assumptions. OK... forget Pistons. Lets go the GS route. We can draft our Draymond Green this year to go with Frank and KP our two lottery picks. GS won last year. Is that close enough of a blue print. There.. its solved.

Kanter
Frank
KP
McD
Dotson
Willy
Baker
THjr

This roster and rotation is loaded with guys who are going to get better.

NardDogNation, your whole arguement against what Perry is doing is that he's building around a .500 ish mediocre crew which is utter bullship. We dont know what or how good this crew is. We know when at full strength they can compete and beat good NBA teams, but they are not consistent.

I dont care about Phili. They have sucked so bad for so long their best player is already on a max deal after playing 34 games in the NBA.

You act as if I am like whoop whoop we are here the Knicks are back. I picked them to be better than they were last year and win 38 games. They are one track for that. I am happy as we are developing young talent while leaning on a couple vets for leadership, especially on defense. Your talent is wasted if not developed right and they are finally doing that. THAT is what I am happy about, not the record.

Which teams tanked their way to a title? Lebron's teams didnt. Spurs didnt with Manu/Parker/Lenard all non lottery picks. Did GSW tank? Curry was hurt a lot early which helped but they never tanked adding guys like Ellis and David Lee. They always tried to get better. So what blueprint are you working off of? Its pure fantasy. All tanking does is deflate the value of every player, ruin your morale and ensures your get to add great talent to your dysfunction every year.

I am good with the Knicks building a team that defends and doing it around a young core than can grow and is talented. If they play hard and lose these close games fine. This is how they learn and get better.

Me pointing to established trends in the league are "assumptions" to you. But you pretending that Draymond Green is coming with our next pick and that we can follow the Warriors blueprint? Evidently that is sound fact in your book. Ok. Gotcha.

Let's also pretend that the Warriors blueprint did not include the cap flexibility to sign-and-trade for Andre "2015 Finals MVP" Igoudala and Kevin "I'm a Top 3 Player In the League" Durant- cap flexibility we won't possess for the next 3 seasons or so because of how badly we mangled our finances.

And yet you keep insisting that "we don't know how good this crew is (i.e. a potential is limitless)" and that we "can compete and beat good NBA teams", but what evidence is there of that? We have a point differential of +0.4, and are currently below .500 despite playing a softie schedule with a league leading number of games at home. If the engines of this "success" were novices in the league then you might be onto something. But guys like Enes Kanter is in his 7th season in the league; Courtney Lee is in his 10th season; Tim Hardaway Jr. is in his 5th; Kyle O'Quinn is in his 6th season, etc. These guys are what they are and the only hope for internal improvement (from guys that actually get time) can only come from Kristaps Porzingis and Frank Ntilikina. As good as they are, it is NOT enough to compete with the other up-and-coming teams in the league and none of the conference contenders. So feel free to keep up this fantasy that we're on the path to become some type of juggernaut but the reality is we more closely resemble the types of teams that a young franchise player wants to leave than a perennial contender.

And for the record, I'm no advocate of a tank but I do believe the kind of improvement we need can ONLY come from developing our youth and through the draft. Unfortunately, we are foregoing the option of developing the rest of our youth (e.g. Willy Hernangomez and Damyean Dotson) and don't have the flexibility to acquire additional first round picks. That is not a recipe for success.

The problem is we have painted ourselves into a corner with contracts, So where is the high level talent coming from? Yes we can create cap room by releasing 3 or 4 rotation players but once KP gets maxed out that basically assures the team having zero depth. I see this roster as having some nice complimentary pieces but at prices that are not conducive to winning. I figure whats the best way to get the superstar SF this team needs, the draft, higher the pick the better chance you have at getting a star. I see a team that if they don't get another legitimate star player is maxed out on the first round.

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
NardDogNation
Posts: 26752
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

12/29/2017  10:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/29/2017  10:44 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

seeing is believing. They have been outspoken about rebuilding the team and playing a certain way. They have done everything they could in a short time to make that happen. Out go Phil, Melo, Rose... Jeff gets to do what he wants, players can be held accountable to defense and low and behold, the team moves the ball and plays defense.

Let these guys do their job. I Think the Pistons mold is the best. I said that before. Knicks can build a team around Frank and KP's defense. Now go get me a couple like guys like Prince or Ariza and lets grow this.

Perry may fail here. Cant say there isnt a plan though.

And yet none of the moves we've made is indicative of a rebuild. We are adding long-term salary and not jettisoning it. We are benching or limiting the minutes of our youth, not creating plans to expand them. We are playing ourselves out of a lottery pick, not positioning ourselves for one. None of what we are doing is the hallmarks of a rebuild, which is frustrating since a good portion of the heavy-lifting (Kristaps Porzingis) has mostly been done.

Simply not true. The Knicks and their rotation is much younger this year. They literally used every method to get youngs... trade, FA and draft. The the 19 year old they drafted is in the rotation. They got a pair of 25 year olds for a 33 year old Melo. They let Holiday (28 years old) go and brought Hardaway back who is 3 years younger and its too bad he got hurt because he was certainly looking like a core piece that was just added.

Is 25 to old to rebuild with? Because we added 3 very good 25 year old player to the roster and they look good next to KP, who is showing every bit that he is a star player.

It most certainly looks like they are rebuilding this roster. Just not the way you want them too. You keep talking about Kris Middleton. He's older than THjr, McD and Kanter and he was 2nd rounder. For all we know Dotson is better. He was drafted literally to be Middleton. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, but it certainly appears that you choose to simple ignore what doesnt fall into your context of rebuilding.

Your talking about tanking, not rebuilding. Look at the Piston's teams that went to 4 straight conf finals. Those teams built through tanking? Rebuild does not = tanking.

NBA Players age like milk. Players have a u-shaped curve in the NBA. They get better as they reach their 25th birthday. They peak around 25-26. After that they slowly decline as they approach 30 and after 32 they rapidly decline.

http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/

The aforementioned is a point that has been validated by most Sport Science platforms. This isn't to say that we need to hit the reset button everytime our core turns 26 years old- that'd be foolish. But you are kidding yourself if you think Hardaway Jr and Enes Kanter- both of whom are currently their best versions of themselves- can be the 2nd and 3rd best players on a contender. If all you want are first and second round exits, then I could see why you're thrilled with our M.O. I personally want a perennial title contender and this is definitely not the way you build one.

As for the fact that you keep bringing up the 2004 Pistons as a blueprint for success, what does it say that you need to reach back 14 years to find an example that proves your point? And do you remember that Joe Dumars tried to implore that same strategy in 2008? How well did that strategy work out for them?

your whole argument is based under assumptions. OK... forget Pistons. Lets go the GS route. We can draft our Draymond Green this year to go with Frank and KP our two lottery picks. GS won last year. Is that close enough of a blue print. There.. its solved.

Kanter
Frank
KP
McD
Dotson
Willy
Baker
THjr

This roster and rotation is loaded with guys who are going to get better.

NardDogNation, your whole arguement against what Perry is doing is that he's building around a .500 ish mediocre crew which is utter bullship. We dont know what or how good this crew is. We know when at full strength they can compete and beat good NBA teams, but they are not consistent.

I dont care about Phili. They have sucked so bad for so long their best player is already on a max deal after playing 34 games in the NBA.

You act as if I am like whoop whoop we are here the Knicks are back. I picked them to be better than they were last year and win 38 games. They are one track for that. I am happy as we are developing young talent while leaning on a couple vets for leadership, especially on defense. Your talent is wasted if not developed right and they are finally doing that. THAT is what I am happy about, not the record.

Which teams tanked their way to a title? Lebron's teams didnt. Spurs didnt with Manu/Parker/Lenard all non lottery picks. Did GSW tank? Curry was hurt a lot early which helped but they never tanked adding guys like Ellis and David Lee. They always tried to get better. So what blueprint are you working off of? Its pure fantasy. All tanking does is deflate the value of every player, ruin your morale and ensures your get to add great talent to your dysfunction every year.

I am good with the Knicks building a team that defends and doing it around a young core than can grow and is talented. If they play hard and lose these close games fine. This is how they learn and get better.

Me pointing to established trends in the league are "assumptions" to you. But you pretending that Draymond Green is coming with our next pick and that we can follow the Warriors blueprint? Evidently that is sound fact in your book. Ok. Gotcha.

Let's also pretend that the Warriors blueprint did not include the cap flexibility to sign-and-trade for Andre "2015 Finals MVP" Igoudala and Kevin "I'm a Top 3 Player In the League" Durant- cap flexibility we won't possess for the next 3 seasons or so because of how badly we mangled our finances.

And yet you keep insisting that "we don't know how good this crew is (i.e. a potential is limitless)" and that we "can compete and beat good NBA teams", but what evidence is there of that? We have a point differential of +0.4, and are currently below .500 despite playing a softie schedule with a league leading number of games at home. If the engines of this "success" were novices in the league then you might be onto something. But guys like Enes Kanter is in his 7th season in the league; Courtney Lee is in his 10th season; Tim Hardaway Jr. is in his 5th; Kyle O'Quinn is in his 6th season, etc. These guys are what they are and the only hope for internal improvement (from guys that actually get time) can only come from Kristaps Porzingis and Frank Ntilikina. As good as they are, it is NOT enough to compete with the other up-and-coming teams in the league and none of the conference contenders. So feel free to keep up this fantasy that we're on the path to become some type of juggernaut but the reality is we more closely resemble the types of teams that a young franchise player wants to leave than a perennial contender.

And for the record, I'm no advocate of a tank but I do believe the kind of improvement we need can ONLY come from developing our youth and through the draft. Unfortunately, we are foregoing the option of developing the rest of our youth (e.g. Willy Hernangomez and Damyean Dotson) and don't have the flexibility to acquire additional first round picks. That is not a recipe for success.

The problem is we have painted ourselves into a corner with contracts, So where is the high level talent coming from? Yes we can create cap room by releasing 3 or 4 rotation players but once KP gets maxed out that basically assures the team having zero depth. I see this roster as having some nice complimentary pieces but at prices that are not conducive to winning. I figure whats the best way to get the superstar SF this team needs, the draft, higher the pick the better chance you have at getting a star. I see a team that if they don't get another legitimate star player is maxed out on the first round.

Exactly. Teams improve in this league through three means: (1) the draft, (2) trades and (3) free agent signings. How effective each tool is, is contingent on maximizing our options with each e.g. having cap space or an ability to get more cap space puts you in the hunt for better free agents and cap-based deals.

The 2015 Sixers for example, used just $20 million of their cap space to get control of Sacramento's 2017 and 2019 first round picks, along with the 8th pick of the 2014 draft, Nik Staukaus. None of that $20 million impacted the Sixers beyond two seasons. Meanwhile, the Knicks used that same money during that free agency to sign Aaron Afflalo, Kevin Seraphin and Derrick Williams; none of whom were Knicks the following season and whose salaries were ultimately combined into money to sign Joakim Noah to a $72 million deal. See the difference in value?

The Knicks, for whatever reason, have made it a practice to handicuff themselves in at least two of the three methods for improvement, which ultimately has had a devastating influence on the third. For instance, between 2008-2010 the Knicks gave up draft picks (control of 2011 and 2012 first round picks; an abundance of 2nd rounders) and talent (e.g. David Lee, Zach Randolph, Jamal Crawford) to acquire an abundance of cap space. When the Knicks finally used the cap space they had, they were only able to get players that hindered cap flexibility and who had no real trade value since they were known commodities that were overpaid to get them to New York in the first place (e.g. Amar'e Stoudemire, Raymond Felton, Marcus Camby, etc.).

Today's Knicks have done the same thing. We've effectively cap-locked ourselves by bringing in and keeping the Enes Kanters, Tim Hardaway Jr.s, Joakim Noah's, Courtney Lee's of the world that can only be flipped (if they can be flipped) for players of same contract and talent level. And their presence on the also team hurts our draft options because they: (1) are just good enough to play us out of optimal lottery position and (2)are expensive enough to prevent us from using cap space to get more first round picks to either add to our core or package to move up in the draft (ala the Blazers using their pick and DENs pick to move up to 10th in a stacked draft).

We're in no man's land and have been for quite some time, which is why I don't get the celebratoons of "culture change". This is the M.O. of the same old Knicks. Just as we cratered the trade values of David Lee (20-10 big that we traded for empty contracts), Trevor Ariza (future cog on a contenders that we traded for an empty contract named Steve Francis), Channing Frye (traded as an afterthought) to play overpriced/ill-regarded veterans, we are doing the same with guys like Willy Hernangomez and Damyean Dotson. All we've done is play a game of musical chairs with guys in our front office.

martin
Posts: 47559
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
12/29/2017  11:51 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
martin wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
Knixkik wrote:I know some people want to deal him because some are obsessed with future draft picks but kanter is great and has earned his keep as part of this core.

Then trade this years pick to get rid of Noah. We need to get a superstar SF in here before Porzingis hits FA so either we need to tank hard or we need to shed salary to offer someone a fat deal

People's obsession with tanking is crazy.

Do u know of a better way to get star players on cost controlled deals? God forbid getting another player like KP at 5 million a year, soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo crazy to want that. Look at the core Philly has assembled, we aren't competing with them long-term without a significant upgrade in talent. Tanking is the only way for this team to add the talent needed without giving up multiple role players in the process.

Philly got that core because none of their draft picks could stay healthy. There is usually an uptick in a team's record the following season, after drafting a top lotto pick. Philly never had that because their picks were missing entire seasons, which allowed them (with some luck as well) to keep getting top lotto picks. Not the example to use.

Culture change starts with winning, not losing. Players, FAs, have to see that this franchise isnt a joke anymore. Winning, playoffs, will change that.



Culture change starts with an actual vision and philosophy.
The Sixers had "The(ir) Process" but what is the Knicks' vision? What is their philosophy? Because right now our strategy appears to be little more than throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks, which is no different from the losing strategy we've always implored.

The Sixers on the other hand were well oiled-machine: acquiring lottery picks from other teams (i.e. the Pelicans 2013 lottery pick, the Pelicans 2014 lottery pick, the Lakers 2018 lottery pick, the Kings' 2017 and 2019 lottery picks) as well as unearthing assets (e.g. Robert Covington and Richaun Holmes) IN ADDITION to Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons. Give me that over what we're doing any day.

The fact that you don't understand what the vision is is more indicative of you not paying attention, not what the team is actually doing.

Then articulate the vision for all of us that's blind to what is going on.

Here's the thing Nard, you simultaneously tell us that Knicks don't have a vision and philosophy while also letting us know that you haven't paid ANY attention to what the Knicks or Scott Perry has been preaching since he got here.

You can't have both.

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Nalod
Posts: 55926
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
12/29/2017  12:11 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
Welpee wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Nalod wrote:Where was Curry, Thompson and Draymond drafted?
Deangelo Russell, Oka4 drafted? Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennet? SHyt happens. Sometimes its bad.

You are taking the exception to the rule and pretending that it is in fact the rule. That's not nuanced reasoning, it is just wishful thinking.

Do an analysis of all lottery picks and you'd be surprised the % who are busts/mediocre players/role players/good players who aren't franchise players. And you'd be complaining about a lot of the #1 picks too (like folks are complaining about KP). This fantasy of banking on drafting another Lebron or Duncan or Durant is truly like playing the real lottery. Counting entirely on luck is a risky way to build a team.

Have you done one? Because I think that it is pretty common knowledge that the higher you pick, the higher the probability your selection becomes an all-star.

http://www.nba.com/magic/gallery/cohen-8ball-history-picking-1-8-nba-draft-percentage-all-stars-1980

I'm not naive enough to think we'll pick an all-star by merely having a good pick but I do believe it is the most effective means of procuring one. Even if we only end up with a bunch of "decent" players, they can easily be packaged for a disgruntled star we could pair with Kristaps (e.g. Sabonis as part of a package for Paul George; Kris Dunn as part of a package for Jimmy Butler). So rather than splurge on overpriced veterans, I much rather utilize our cap space to acquire unsavory contracts paired with draft picks.

I firmly believe to not trade picks unless your on the threshold of contending and need finishing pieces.
The past is done and has no bearing on future decisions. What the knick have done in the past is irrelevant as I believe we have stopped starphuching and taking a longer view. This is really our only chance.
That said there is a thin line between "tanking" and "Developing". Without veteran presence young players will lose their cool and the coach loses his team.
THe culture erodes quickly.
To "Compete" as we have been "as a feel good team" has its ups and downs. A good culture has to start from somewhere. I recall the Wiz went too young and floundered until some veteran presence was bought in. Its obvious we are tilted toward yoot with Frank being in the line up at the end of the 4th period.
What does a tanking roster look like? Im not sure. BUt to deliberately lose games kills a team and its spirit. If you get to the end of February and the team is in the toilet then you pull the injured guys off, waive or trade the vets and just flush it down providing there is a prime draft picks awaiting. Problem is the odds are stacked against getting the no. 1 pick. Its just 25%! That's a 75% chance you don't get Lebron or Timmy! Is it worth tearing down some goodness for those odds?
At the moment we are not in the lottery which is full of teams that seemingly year in and year out.
http://www.tankathon.com/pick_odds

I also find it hard to react to losses and think I have the answers that many fans like to post. Change is not always improvement and the details and nuances of change are lost on most fans.
Bottom line is can a team play better than it current is? They have had good moments but they are fading and struggling. How do we as fans call for change when Hardaway is not playing? He bought a lot to the team. Dougie can't hit a bucket, Clee is a role player, Beas is fun sometimes but can't be counted on. Two weeks ago fans were chanting "MVP". Last nite he looked awful.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Enes Kanter: "The best acqusition since Kristaps Porzingis."

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