fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.

well said... you beat me by 2 minutes. Couldnt agree more.

That's why I posted the Trae young thread.

what I have seen from jack and frank is the inability to take advantage of open lanes, they consistently walk the ball up court even on miss shots. when they have the ability to blow by a defender, they don't, they run a Iso for bease or kp, and worse, they don't cut hard and fast.

I would even see about bringing Jennings back in January for the remainder of the season. I think china's season is over in late January, he would be decent in a non triangle situation.

I saw the thread. I found the idea stupid and therefore didnt post in it. Trading Frank? Bringing back Jennings? I am sure your a nice guy but your basketball ideas are generally the exact opposite of what strikes me as good. Jennings did not work here. But you like Rose also... another doodoo player.

The Knicks are rebuilding. They have said this. This isnt a fix it situation. This is a grow it situation. Jack is here and playing and starting because he's a smart player and can do basic things (most of the time). The logic is simple here for the "I thought we were rebuilding" crowd. You dont want to hurt your player development by having them play with guys who cant do the basics.

Our PGs coming into the season were Baker, a guy we all knew wasnt a PG, a 19 year old from EU and two journeyman veteran minimum player in Jack and Sessions. Adding THjr (another deal 1248 ripped on) really helped, and we have seen the Knicks struggle at guard since he's been out. Hardaway was playing his best BB as a pro and was a good ball mover on offense. Missing him has put more pressure on our PGs, an already thin crew.

Trae Young isnt fixing this. Neither is Cat Barber or Trey Burke or any of these shiny objects.

This is the time to develop Frank, see if Baker is a real NBA player and get what you can from Jack. This is not a contender with a roster weakness that needs to be fixed. This is a new team still evaluating what they have.

So what's your great idea, give frank 4 yrs and see if he pans out. Just because frank is has some talent doesn't mean he's a perfect fit for JH system. Just because we were predicted to be a bad team and we are now a decent team, doesn't mean we should just be happy with where we are, if there is an opportunity to level up your pg situation(which needs to happen), they need to make a move.

sure... but your suggestions to trade a 19 year old or bring back guys like Brandon Jennings are not level ups. Those are dummy downs.

My great plan? Its sit back and let Perry do his job. What has he said? That they are building for a long term and sustainable team. That they are building around defense and a team that shares the ball and plays tough. So ANYTHING in my plan is going to fit into the long term fit.

For example I am not going to disrupt team chemistry or hold back a player's development for a small "level up" which your ideas are not anyway. So the plan is do exactly what you are seeing. Give Frank as much time to grow as I can while keeping the the PG play stable enough where it doesnt hurt the team. Trey Burke is leading the G league in scoring. We signed him. He' 25 and in the queue to come up. So the first move you will probably see is Sessions go and Burke come up. Give him a chance in practice to show what he can do and hopefully beat out Ron Baker for those minutes.

After that its the draft. After that is FA. After that is trades. After that is let em play and work on getting them to be better players. Remember you said Kater, McD and THjr all sucked and played no defense? So either you were dead wrong or the Knicks have them playing better defense than they had at previous spots. Thats the point. Its just as important to make em better as it is to get better players.

Thats how it works in the real world. Not "lets level up with Brandon Jennings." I mean these are grown men on a team being coached by other grown men. This is not a game. This is not throwing poop on the wall. We have seen how things go on orgs that do that. Its been the Knicks for 15+ we are trying to build a better culture. For you its a video game. For those actually involved its their whole life. There is some real world aspects that you simply ignore. Think about it.

I only said Jennings as a playoff push player, not long term. Trae is averaging double digit assist, that's extremely unusual for any level college player. I've seen him play, and he sees the floor better than any pg in college right now.

Trust me here, I really do love franks defense, but I'm on the fence long term because scoring is like a 4th option for him, he went damn near 3 wks without taking a FT, he takes it to the hole like once a month, in this era of NBA basketball, that's not going to cut it.

Then you wonder why your seeing kp turning into melo on offense..

newyorknewyork wrote:

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Panos wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.

Somebody please explain to me why you wound play Frank, someone who can't drive or shoot, at the SHOOTING guard?

you dont sound very high on Frank as a BB player. He's much less valuable at the 2, but the point is defense... he can defend multiple positions so you can play him with another PG who's more of a scorer.

I rank his defense much higher than his passing/playmaking, and in turn, much much higher than his shooting and driving. No way I'd put him at the 2. The SG has to score in this league unless you have a young Tony Parker or Steph Curry, neither of whom i see is getting. And even if we did, I'd still keep Frank at the backup PG. I just don't see value playing him at the 2.

Parker his rookie yr at 19 averaged 9pts and 4ast at 29mins per game on .419 .323 & .674 % from the field. He was a speed scoring guard who could penetrate though. Frank brings a different game so we will see if he is able to have a similar jump from rookie to sophmore yr. He has more physical potential then Parker ever did though.

A scoring PG is probably the easiest talent to find in the NBA.

Frank has also put up .458 from 3 and .824 from FT over the month if Dec. Knicks are also in the plus department when Frank is in the game for majority of the season. Frank and and KP combine for (I forget the number) for a pretty good plus in the points per possession or something like that when they are together.

He is doing something right that he mostly ends up on the positive side when he has been in a game.

Fans need for everything to be immediate is one of the contributing factors to stupid GM moves which has made the Knicks a laughing stock of the NBA for most of the 2000s. In 4 years that compliment to Frank would already be found given how many scoring guards become available or enter the league. Hopefully we find him early enough so that by Frank's 4th yr he will be in his 3rd and they both can be in early stages of breakout play.

I didn't ask for anything immediately, nor did i say (in this post) that Frank wasn't a good player (even if i think he won't be an above average PG in the league, but that's a different story).
What i did say was that he's not a SG and it would be stupid to play him there. One of Frank's advantages is his length at the PG position. Put him at SG and he's average height, and below average scoring. What part of that do you disagree with?

Panos wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Panos wrote:

Knixkik wrote:It just comes down to PG play. The offense stalls without a creative PG. Ntilikina will develop that to an extent, but at some point we really need a change of pace PG who can come off the bench and make plays and play fast. I would be open to drafting another PG in the middle of the 1st round this year. Someone like Duval (we aren't getting Trae Young) who can fly up and down the court and create easy baskets. Ntilikina is the PG of the future here, but he can also move to the 2 so there will never be a log jam.

Somebody please explain to me why you wound play Frank, someone who can't drive or shoot, at the SHOOTING guard?

you dont sound very high on Frank as a BB player. He's much less valuable at the 2, but the point is defense... he can defend multiple positions so you can play him with another PG who's more of a scorer.

I rank his defense much higher than his passing/playmaking, and in turn, much much higher than his shooting and driving. No way I'd put him at the 2. The SG has to score in this league unless you have a young Tony Parker or Steph Curry, neither of whom i see is getting. And even if we did, I'd still keep Frank at the backup PG. I just don't see value playing him at the 2.

Parker his rookie yr at 19 averaged 9pts and 4ast at 29mins per game on .419 .323 & .674 % from the field. He was a speed scoring guard who could penetrate though. Frank brings a different game so we will see if he is able to have a similar jump from rookie to sophmore yr. He has more physical potential then Parker ever did though.

A scoring PG is probably the easiest talent to find in the NBA.

Frank has also put up .458 from 3 and .824 from FT over the month if Dec. Knicks are also in the plus department when Frank is in the game for majority of the season. Frank and and KP combine for (I forget the number) for a pretty good plus in the points per possession or something like that when they are together.

He is doing something right that he mostly ends up on the positive side when he has been in a game.

Fans need for everything to be immediate is one of the contributing factors to stupid GM moves which has made the Knicks a laughing stock of the NBA for most of the 2000s. In 4 years that compliment to Frank would already be found given how many scoring guards become available or enter the league. Hopefully we find him early enough so that by Frank's 4th yr he will be in his 3rd and they both can be in early stages of breakout play.

I didn't ask for anything immediately, nor did i say (in this post) that Frank wasn't a good player (even if i think he won't be an above average PG in the league, but that's a different story).
What i did say was that he's not a SG and it would be stupid to play him there. One of Frank's advantages is his length at the PG position. Put him at SG and he's average height, and below average scoring. What part of that do you disagree with?

Yea sorry about that didn't mean to merger everything toward your post. Only the Parker comparison and Frank's shooting %s were really addressing your post. And the Parker comparison wasnt meant to combat you either just dialog about Parker's rookie yr. Did a bad job separating the views.

I will say though that in today's NBA teams care less about positions. They focus on skill sets more. Even the all-star game is now labeled as guards, wings, bigs. You can play Frank anywhere from PG to SF it wouldn't really matter as he would just fill the role of guard or wing regardless. As long as he can guard his man and knock down some 3s he can play 1-3. Frank could play the guard postion next to any other ball dominant guard in the NBA. Dennis Shroeder, John Wall, Goran Dragic, Isiah Thomas, you name it. They would probably play the role of SG while guarding weaker defender. He would take the tougher defensive assignment while offering catch and shoot and 2ndary ball handling duties as well as extra ball movement. Could even dig in on rebounds. That is the idea when talking about him playing SG I believe. But the goal shouldn't be lock him in a position. Imo Frank's best attribute may be that he can offer you so much potential flexibility. Going oversized with a 6-5 7Ft wing PG. Or using 3 guard sets while maintain some size. And offering 3 ball handler ball movers.

Panos wrote:

fishmike wrote:
Panos is right. Lets say Frank is an average NBA PG on offense... doesnt create his own offense, limited off the dribble but say excellent passer, hits the spot up 3 and takes care of the ball to the tune of 12ppg, 9assists, 2TO, and something like 42/40/80. However lets also say by 21 he's first team all NBA defense, than Frank has tremendous value as a PG who can defend 3 spots and shut down dribble penetration. Frank at the shooting guard is Andre Robertson which is a waste of a lottery pick.

Im not worried at all about Frank. I dont know what his upside is on offense. I saw the videos vs. his peers in that tourney where he won the MVP and boy he's got a lot of offensive game yet to show. He doesnt want to make mistakes and takes see his role as a facilitator. You can see every time he misses a shot he's thinking he should have passed. He's 19... this will improve and this is the culture I think to do it. I noticed they ran a play for him out of a time out. Baby steps but the best part about Frank is what's between the ears. I think he ends up being a top 3 playing in this draft.

That being said he's got a loooooooong way to go. I think its a testament to how good he is that he's been as effective as he's been. I think he's nicely answered questions/concerns about his quickness and athleticism and even strength for that matter.

I think over time Frank and KP will challenge each other to be the best defensive players in the league. I think that's feasible. I think the missing piece to that next level is a 3rd guy who defends like they do. What I would give for a Stephen Jackson or Ron Artest or Tayshawn Prince. I think a guy like that might be had late lottery. A guy with some holes but a defensive monster

NOW you're talkin'!

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

Vmart wrote:My observation of the Knicks lately, they are become more and more isolation team. These are the thing this team must avoid. Late turnovers because everyone knows what they are doing. Either go to Beasley or go to KP. Instead of having a free flow offense it all come crashing down into a stagnating offense.

They need to go triple post and move that ball around better. They have a 5 point lead and they are trying to force the ball to KP. Isolation is fine but you keep going to that well and teams will make adjustments to stop it. I’m seeing a lot less 3-4 passes before a shot and it’s a concern going forward especially on the road. Isolation doesn’t work well on the road. Team ball and ball movement wins on the road.

Thats who KP is are u really surprised? if your best scorer doesn't pass at all you will probably be iso heavy. Its been way worse since Hardaway has been off the floor. The other thing that sux about Iso basketball is you make the other team use no energy on defense.

trade KP! We could get 2 first rounders for sure! ...this guy

VMart... you are right, but do you think it's by design? Knicks have not had good guard play of late. Jack/Frank/Baker have struggled of late, and we know thats not a great offensive group to start with. Hardaway is a good ball mover, missing him hurts. Mostly its the PG play. Jack has his moments and has really helped but he's a journeyman coming off 2 years of injuries and Frank is 19. There are going to be some tough stretches.

All of this was feasible
Traded KP for 4th pick Tatum, and Nets pick
2017 Tatum, we draft Frank still with our pick
we trade for Demare carrol and take the Raptors pick

we keep the same Melo deal
we sign Rondo to 2 year deal. It doesn't matter as we are building for 2 years from now when Noah is gone.

2018 Draft

5th Pick ours
7th pick nets
27th pick Raptors
39th pick Bulls

So 3 seasons from last summer we would of had 6 first round picks on rookie deals and Probably about 50 million in cap space to sign FA's. We then sign our own FA's and go into the luxury tax.

While this Knick team will be into the luxury tax with Hardaway jr as its 2nd best player. Now you see why I want to lose games this year. I don't see anyway this team isn't an automatic first round exit without Frank turning into Gary Payton