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CrushAlot
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12/19/2017  3:44 PM
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
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Nalod
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12/19/2017  4:17 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.

IM thinking Utah GM at the time if I recall was crafty to have piggy backed on the Melo deal and got a good package on a player who declined in two years after.
Melo for all his short comings primarily stayed healthy and put in the work to stay on his game. He got that second contract. Dolan got to keep his box office draw.
We'll never know until Phil is clear to write his book what the deal was with the NTC and who precipitated that contract.

Anger sells, don't buy!
CrushAlot
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12/19/2017  4:25 PM
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.

IM thinking Utah GM at the time if I recall was crafty to have piggy backed on the Melo deal and got a good package on a player who declined in two years after.
Melo for all his short comings primarily stayed healthy and put in the work to stay on his game. He got that second contract. Dolan got to keep his box office draw.
We'll never know until Phil is clear to write his book what the deal was with the NTC and who precipitated that contract.

we know his buddy Charlie Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy on all moves during his tenure. He said tha last June.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
Nalod
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12/19/2017  4:51 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.

IM thinking Utah GM at the time if I recall was crafty to have piggy backed on the Melo deal and got a good package on a player who declined in two years after.
Melo for all his short comings primarily stayed healthy and put in the work to stay on his game. He got that second contract. Dolan got to keep his box office draw.
We'll never know until Phil is clear to write his book what the deal was with the NTC and who precipitated that contract.

we know his buddy Charlie Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy on all moves during his tenure. He said tha last June.

You take everything quoted literally? NBA is full of guys telling us what we want to hear and team management in the job of selling tickes.
"Phil said team was competitive and then we win 17 games". Well, you think he gonna say "We suck, tanking and phuch you season tix holders?"
Of course not. You think Phil loved melo and gave him the NTC because he thought Melo was the man to lead his triangle? PHil was gullible to Melo's charms?
What does logic say? For a moment not care about defending the "PHil is a evil and stupid" code and think objectively?
You think when PHil was critical of him and "Devalued him" that other GM's were like "oh, we gonna get him for nothing because of what phil said! Those tape my scouting department put together of melo does not show anyting about melo holding the ball too long!!"....Riiiiight.

You think Phil loved Melo and his potential at the time to adhere to his Triangle and give him self to it as Michael did so many years ago???

Anger sells, don't buy!
CrushAlot
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12/19/2017  5:16 PM
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.

IM thinking Utah GM at the time if I recall was crafty to have piggy backed on the Melo deal and got a good package on a player who declined in two years after.
Melo for all his short comings primarily stayed healthy and put in the work to stay on his game. He got that second contract. Dolan got to keep his box office draw.
We'll never know until Phil is clear to write his book what the deal was with the NTC and who precipitated that contract.

we know his buddy Charlie Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy on all moves during his tenure. He said tha last June.

You take everything quoted literally? NBA is full of guys telling us what we want to hear and team management in the job of selling tickes.
"Phil said team was competitive and then we win 17 games". Well, you think he gonna say "We suck, tanking and phuch you season tix holders?"
Of course not. You think Phil loved melo and gave him the NTC because he thought Melo was the man to lead his triangle? PHil was gullible to Melo's charms?
What does logic say? For a moment not care about defending the "PHil is a evil and stupid" code and think objectively?
You think when PHil was critical of him and "Devalued him" that other GM's were like "oh, we gonna get him for nothing because of what phil said! Those tape my scouting department put together of melo does not show anyting about melo holding the ball too long!!"....Riiiiight.

You think Phil loved Melo and his potential at the time to adhere to his Triangle and give him self to it as Michael did so many years ago???

What I think might have happened in the Melo negotiation is that Rosen/Melo agreed to take a little less than a max deal and in return Phil gave Melo the ntc. I believe Phil thought he was the smartest guy in the room and an experienced agent got the better deal for his client. What I know is that Phil's friend and confidant said on a podcast after Phil was fired that Phil had total autonomy. He didn't leave any room for speculation. He certainly could have and Phil was already fired so it wouldn't have mattered. I always thought if Dolan was involved he would have given Melo the max with the ntc.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
fwk00
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12/19/2017  6:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/19/2017  6:17 PM
Knixkik wrote:
fwk00 wrote:Trading for Melo may be the absolute worst trade in Knicks history.

D'Ant was just getting the team up to speed with a lot of very nice talent. Melo poisoned all of that. Look at Houston and see what the Knicks would have looked like in short order.

But the Melo train wreck continued for YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRS.

Melo had the opportunity to be guided by Phil Jackson into a superstar. Melo opted for meglomania, mediocrity, and subverting everything Phil was trying to build.

What was OKC thinking? Paul George is an over-rated nobody. Melo an over-rated never-was. There isn't a bigger garbage can in the league.

And that perspective is necessary to see just how bad the Melo to NY trade was. Melo ripped the hope out of New York for almost a decade. OKC will jettison him by February.


The Melo trade can be argued for the rest of eternity, but Melo gave us an opportunity to compete in the playoffs. That team we were building wasn't going anywhere, especially with Stoudemire falling off the next season. We would have been strapped regardless. Gallinari was never healthy after we traded him. Any hope would be tied to hypothetical picks we made if we didn't have Melo. We traded for him, got his best years out of him, and have successfully moved on. But make no mistake, Okc is stuck with Melo for this year and next. No one can offer anything for his contract.

No, not true. Melo did not give us the opportunity to compete in the playoffs. He *could have* given us that opportunity but didn't and won't for any team. Make no mistake, he's a nice guy but he's got a mental block about who he is and what he can do. Phil tried to get through to him as did D'Ant and everyone else.

OKC will take a bag of bad contracts to lose him. Watch and see. Hell, Wes Matthews and a bag of chips works.

Nalod
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12/20/2017  7:04 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/20/2017  7:15 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.

IM thinking Utah GM at the time if I recall was crafty to have piggy backed on the Melo deal and got a good package on a player who declined in two years after.
Melo for all his short comings primarily stayed healthy and put in the work to stay on his game. He got that second contract. Dolan got to keep his box office draw.
We'll never know until Phil is clear to write his book what the deal was with the NTC and who precipitated that contract.

we know his buddy Charlie Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy on all moves during his tenure. He said tha last June.

You take everything quoted literally? NBA is full of guys telling us what we want to hear and team management in the job of selling tickes.
"Phil said team was competitive and then we win 17 games". Well, you think he gonna say "We suck, tanking and phuch you season tix holders?"
Of course not. You think Phil loved melo and gave him the NTC because he thought Melo was the man to lead his triangle? PHil was gullible to Melo's charms?
What does logic say? For a moment not care about defending the "PHil is a evil and stupid" code and think objectively?
You think when PHil was critical of him and "Devalued him" that other GM's were like "oh, we gonna get him for nothing because of what phil said! Those tape my scouting department put together of melo does not show anyting about melo holding the ball too long!!"....Riiiiight.

You think Phil loved Melo and his potential at the time to adhere to his Triangle and give him self to it as Michael did so many years ago???

What I think might have happened in the Melo negotiation is that Rosen/Melo agreed to take a little less than a max deal and in return Phil gave Melo the ntc. I believe Phil thought he was the smartest guy in the room and an experienced agent got the better deal for his client. What I know is that Phil's friend and confidant said on a podcast after Phil was fired that Phil had total autonomy. He didn't leave any room for speculation. He certainly could have and Phil was already fired so it wouldn't have mattered. I always thought if Dolan was involved he would have given Melo the max with the ntc.

YOur talking about 7mm over 4 years but make no mention about Melo’s talent and fit to what Phil was doing. YOur talking about money as the reason Melo was retained. Do you think Melo’s game fit with what Phil wanted on the court? Is it possible Melo duped Phil into believing he’d accept the triangle as JOrdan and Kobe did before him? Is it possible that PHil had total autonomy but there was an agreement at the time Phil came on board that since the team was so depleted in assets that losing Melo would be a box office disasaster and with little to trade it’s and few picks that Melo was a compromise by him and Dolan and PERHAPS a compromise was made regarding Melo?

Let’s face it, Phil’s record speaks for itself but what cannot be replicated is the alternative decisions and back them down. All I give him credit for is being a an agent for change where none had existed. Thus “Righted the ship” is said. Phil was freaking out of his mind to trade KP and I offered “He is thinking like a coach” to do so. Regarding his veteran moves they were bold but did not have residual lasting effects except for Noah’s contract. Nobody is immune from making mistakes.

Anger sells, don't buy!
meloshouldgo
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12/20/2017  4:37 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.

IM thinking Utah GM at the time if I recall was crafty to have piggy backed on the Melo deal and got a good package on a player who declined in two years after.
Melo for all his short comings primarily stayed healthy and put in the work to stay on his game. He got that second contract. Dolan got to keep his box office draw.
We'll never know until Phil is clear to write his book what the deal was with the NTC and who precipitated that contract.

we know his buddy Charlie Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy on all moves during his tenure. He said tha last June.

You take everything quoted literally? NBA is full of guys telling us what we want to hear and team management in the job of selling tickes.
"Phil said team was competitive and then we win 17 games". Well, you think he gonna say "We suck, tanking and phuch you season tix holders?"
Of course not. You think Phil loved melo and gave him the NTC because he thought Melo was the man to lead his triangle? PHil was gullible to Melo's charms?
What does logic say? For a moment not care about defending the "PHil is a evil and stupid" code and think objectively?
You think when PHil was critical of him and "Devalued him" that other GM's were like "oh, we gonna get him for nothing because of what phil said! Those tape my scouting department put together of melo does not show anyting about melo holding the ball too long!!"....Riiiiight.

You think Phil loved Melo and his potential at the time to adhere to his Triangle and give him self to it as Michael did so many years ago???

What I think might have happened in the Melo negotiation is that Rosen/Melo agreed to take a little less than a max deal and in return Phil gave Melo the ntc. I believe Phil thought he was the smartest guy in the room and an experienced agent got the better deal for his client. What I know is that Phil's friend and confidant said on a podcast after Phil was fired that Phil had total autonomy. He didn't leave any room for speculation. He certainly could have and Phil was already fired so it wouldn't have mattered. I always thought if Dolan was involved he would have given Melo the max with the ntc.

Whereas you choose to ignore when Phil himself says he would have drafted Prozingis and you go for what Rosen posted before he had even seen KP as proof. Your hypocrisy shines through every post you make.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
CrushAlot
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12/20/2017  4:43 PM
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.

IM thinking Utah GM at the time if I recall was crafty to have piggy backed on the Melo deal and got a good package on a player who declined in two years after.
Melo for all his short comings primarily stayed healthy and put in the work to stay on his game. He got that second contract. Dolan got to keep his box office draw.
We'll never know until Phil is clear to write his book what the deal was with the NTC and who precipitated that contract.

we know his buddy Charlie Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy on all moves during his tenure. He said tha last June.

You take everything quoted literally? NBA is full of guys telling us what we want to hear and team management in the job of selling tickes.
"Phil said team was competitive and then we win 17 games". Well, you think he gonna say "We suck, tanking and phuch you season tix holders?"
Of course not. You think Phil loved melo and gave him the NTC because he thought Melo was the man to lead his triangle? PHil was gullible to Melo's charms?
What does logic say? For a moment not care about defending the "PHil is a evil and stupid" code and think objectively?
You think when PHil was critical of him and "Devalued him" that other GM's were like "oh, we gonna get him for nothing because of what phil said! Those tape my scouting department put together of melo does not show anyting about melo holding the ball too long!!"....Riiiiight.

You think Phil loved Melo and his potential at the time to adhere to his Triangle and give him self to it as Michael did so many years ago???

What I think might have happened in the Melo negotiation is that Rosen/Melo agreed to take a little less than a max deal and in return Phil gave Melo the ntc. I believe Phil thought he was the smartest guy in the room and an experienced agent got the better deal for his client. What I know is that Phil's friend and confidant said on a podcast after Phil was fired that Phil had total autonomy. He didn't leave any room for speculation. He certainly could have and Phil was already fired so it wouldn't have mattered. I always thought if Dolan was involved he would have given Melo the max with the ntc.

YOur talking about 7mm over 4 years but make no mention about Melo’s talent and fit to what Phil was doing. YOur talking about money as the reason Melo was retained. Do you think Melo’s game fit with what Phil wanted on the court? Is it possible Melo duped Phil into believing he’d accept the triangle as JOrdan and Kobe did before him? Is it possible that PHil had total autonomy but there was an agreement at the time Phil came on board that since the team was so depleted in assets that losing Melo would be a box office disasaster and with little to trade it’s and few picks that Melo was a compromise by him and Dolan and PERHAPS a compromise was made regarding Melo?

Let’s face it, Phil’s record speaks for itself but what cannot be replicated is the alternative decisions and back them down. All I give him credit for is being a an agent for change where none had existed. Thus “Righted the ship” is said. Phil was freaking out of his mind to trade KP and I offered “He is thinking like a coach” to do so. Regarding his veteran moves they were bold but did not have residual lasting effects except for Noah’s contract. Nobody is immune from making mistakes.

I am not sure what you want me to say. I told you what I think might have happened during the contract negotiations. I told you what Charlie Rosen said about the situation after Phil was fired on a podcast. In regards to Melo taking less money in year two, it was important because Bargs and Amare's contracts were expiring so that extra 5 mil gave the Knicks more cap space to be players in free agency that offseason (Afflalo, Lopez). Seems like it might be something bargained for since it was specific to year two of the deal.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
fishmike
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12/20/2017  5:01 PM
Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us
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meloshouldgo
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12/20/2017  5:43 PM
fishmike wrote:Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us

The first two I agree, the third was more of a hail Mary to see what could be done, no damage done except for Noah contract. Lee is a good player and Rose is gone. The fourth was not a mistake at all. He called out Melo for holding the ball and chucking, I would have done the same thing if I was in his position.

The Noah contract was really bad the NTC was fukking stupid. Nothing new here

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
newyorknewyork
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12/20/2017  7:23 PM
fishmike wrote:Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us

Was gonna make a very very similar comment. But trying to not care about this stuff anymore.

Nalod
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12/21/2017  9:04 AM
fishmike wrote:Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us


Yes, in the aftermath the points are all fair and we have the hindsight to see all the mistakes.
My point is to go to th exact moment in those negotiations and what was the conditions to which Melo has the leverage to walk and we are empty handed. I contend Phil and Melo were never a good pair but in the end melo sold tickets and we got Enes, Canter and good 2nd round pick which was better than nothing.
One has to reason that the subject of Melo had to be a topic during Phils negotiation with Dolan.
We paid a high price for Melo. My pea brain logic is Phil was given full autonomy but when it comes to Melo MAYBE there was a concession, or a best efforts concession to maintain melo for as long as it’s feasible.
I say that because so much makes no sense unless Phil believed melo when he said he would accept the Triangle and recruit others to come to NY.

So....

1. Phil was stupid to believe Melo
2. Phil was stupid to give him the NTC, but he might have walked. Did Melo think “I’m not doing no triangle and If I don’t have a NTC Phil will exile me quickly!

Both are culpable in my mind. I’m sympathetic to Phil because I had hoped his elevated thinking would more than translate. It actually failed. Melo on the other hand was not sincere in his efforts to change. His words too were empty about “sacrificing his game” etc etc.
I really was looking forward to Melo taking on this challenge and elevating his game a notch. Not physically but in terms of ball movement and leadership. He was a good teammate and a great scorer.

Anger sells, don't buy!
CrushAlot
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12/21/2017  10:10 AM
Nalod wrote:
fishmike wrote:Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us


Yes, in the aftermath the points are all fair and we have the hindsight to see all the mistakes.
My point is to go to th exact moment in those negotiations and what was the conditions to which Melo has the leverage to walk and we are empty handed. I contend Phil and Melo were never a good pair but in the end melo sold tickets and we got Enes, Canter and good 2nd round pick which was better than nothing.
One has to reason that the subject of Melo had to be a topic during Phils negotiation with Dolan.
We paid a high price for Melo. My pea brain logic is Phil was given full autonomy but when it comes to Melo MAYBE there was a concession, or a best efforts concession to maintain melo for as long as it’s feasible.
I say that because so much makes no sense unless Phil believed melo when he said he would accept the Triangle and recruit others to come to NY.

So....

1. Phil was stupid to believe Melo
2. Phil was stupid to give him the NTC, but he might have walked. Did Melo think “I’m not doing no triangle and If I don’t have a NTC Phil will exile me quickly!

Both are culpable in my mind. I’m sympathetic to Phil because I had hoped his elevated thinking would more than translate. It actually failed. Melo on the other hand was not sincere in his efforts to change. His words too were empty about “sacrificing his game” etc etc.
I really was looking forward to Melo taking on this challenge and elevating his game a notch. Not physically but in terms of ball movement and leadership. He was a good teammate and a great scorer.


We don't agree about Melo's contract/Ntc. I am not sure what you consider full autonomy on basketball decisions but that is what Rosen said Phil had while he was with the Knicks. He was very clear about it. There was no waffling, exceptions etc. and there could have been as Phil was already fired. I responded too you about this earlier but I don't think you replied back. The Melo deal is on Phil. He wanted cap space when Bargs and Amare expired so it was negotiated that Melo would take less in year two. My feeling has always been that if Dolan was involved it would have been a full max with the NFC. This was one of Phil's mistakes.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
Nalod
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12/21/2017  11:27 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/21/2017  11:28 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
fishmike wrote:Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us


Yes, in the aftermath the points are all fair and we have the hindsight to see all the mistakes.
My point is to go to th exact moment in those negotiations and what was the conditions to which Melo has the leverage to walk and we are empty handed. I contend Phil and Melo were never a good pair but in the end melo sold tickets and we got Enes, Canter and good 2nd round pick which was better than nothing.
One has to reason that the subject of Melo had to be a topic during Phils negotiation with Dolan.
We paid a high price for Melo. My pea brain logic is Phil was given full autonomy but when it comes to Melo MAYBE there was a concession, or a best efforts concession to maintain melo for as long as it’s feasible.
I say that because so much makes no sense unless Phil believed melo when he said he would accept the Triangle and recruit others to come to NY.

So....

1. Phil was stupid to believe Melo
2. Phil was stupid to give him the NTC, but he might have walked. Did Melo think “I’m not doing no triangle and If I don’t have a NTC Phil will exile me quickly!

Both are culpable in my mind. I’m sympathetic to Phil because I had hoped his elevated thinking would more than translate. It actually failed. Melo on the other hand was not sincere in his efforts to change. His words too were empty about “sacrificing his game” etc etc.
I really was looking forward to Melo taking on this challenge and elevating his game a notch. Not physically but in terms of ball movement and leadership. He was a good teammate and a great scorer.


We don't agree about Melo's contract/Ntc. I am not sure what you consider full autonomy on basketball decisions but that is what Rosen said Phil had while he was with the Knicks. He was very clear about it. There was no waffling, exceptions etc. and there could have been as Phil was already fired. I responded too you about this earlier but I don't think you replied back. The Melo deal is on Phil. He wanted cap space when Bargs and Amare expired so it was negotiated that Melo would take less in year two. My feeling has always been that if Dolan was involved it would have been a full max with the NFC. This was one of Phil's mistakes.

Forget what Rosen said. You have enough hindsight to clarify your own opinion and logic based on what transpired. You read up plenty to form your own opinion and can likely smell bullshyt when its dished out.
Do you think its possible the word "autonomous" was used to also placate knick fans?
We have had Walsh take ownership of Amare and Melo transactions. It never smelled right and we learned in time it was not his thing.
GM's and presidents generally take the hit for the owner. Sometimes the credit too.
Im not ruling out your scenario, it just does not seem like PHil ever owned the decision to have Melo. It seems like Melo never bought in to the Triangle.
There is something missing so Im filling in the question with logic based on my own conjecture. If you don't agree, that's cool. But my push back is based on "Well rose wrote it, so it must be true". For 60mil Phil phils job included taking ownership of things.
NBA players and managers are prone to tell their audience what they want to hear. Bottom line NBA is an entertainment company. Some teams win more than others but hope sells tickets. And if phil says he thinks he has a competitive team well what is he suppose to say otherwise?
I like the direction we are going in. Its evolved with Mills and thus Phil's good and bad are still on this team.

Anger sells, don't buy!
CrushAlot
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12/21/2017  3:54 PM
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
fishmike wrote:Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us


Yes, in the aftermath the points are all fair and we have the hindsight to see all the mistakes.
My point is to go to th exact moment in those negotiations and what was the conditions to which Melo has the leverage to walk and we are empty handed. I contend Phil and Melo were never a good pair but in the end melo sold tickets and we got Enes, Canter and good 2nd round pick which was better than nothing.
One has to reason that the subject of Melo had to be a topic during Phils negotiation with Dolan.
We paid a high price for Melo. My pea brain logic is Phil was given full autonomy but when it comes to Melo MAYBE there was a concession, or a best efforts concession to maintain melo for as long as it’s feasible.
I say that because so much makes no sense unless Phil believed melo when he said he would accept the Triangle and recruit others to come to NY.

So....

1. Phil was stupid to believe Melo
2. Phil was stupid to give him the NTC, but he might have walked. Did Melo think “I’m not doing no triangle and If I don’t have a NTC Phil will exile me quickly!

Both are culpable in my mind. I’m sympathetic to Phil because I had hoped his elevated thinking would more than translate. It actually failed. Melo on the other hand was not sincere in his efforts to change. His words too were empty about “sacrificing his game” etc etc.
I really was looking forward to Melo taking on this challenge and elevating his game a notch. Not physically but in terms of ball movement and leadership. He was a good teammate and a great scorer.


We don't agree about Melo's contract/Ntc. I am not sure what you consider full autonomy on basketball decisions but that is what Rosen said Phil had while he was with the Knicks. He was very clear about it. There was no waffling, exceptions etc. and there could have been as Phil was already fired. I responded too you about this earlier but I don't think you replied back. The Melo deal is on Phil. He wanted cap space when Bargs and Amare expired so it was negotiated that Melo would take less in year two. My feeling has always been that if Dolan was involved it would have been a full max with the NFC. This was one of Phil's mistakes.

Forget what Rosen said. You have enough hindsight to clarify your own opinion and logic based on what transpired. You read up plenty to form your own opinion and can likely smell bullshyt when its dished out.
Do you think its possible the word "autonomous" was used to also placate knick fans?
We have had Walsh take ownership of Amare and Melo transactions. It never smelled right and we learned in time it was not his thing.
GM's and presidents generally take the hit for the owner. Sometimes the credit too.
Im not ruling out your scenario, it just does not seem like PHil ever owned the decision to have Melo. It seems like Melo never bought in to the Triangle.
There is something missing so Im filling in the question with logic based on my own conjecture. If you don't agree, that's cool. But my push back is based on "Well rose wrote it, so it must be true". For 60mil Phil phils job included taking ownership of things.
NBA players and managers are prone to tell their audience what they want to hear. Bottom line NBA is an entertainment company. Some teams win more than others but hope sells tickets. And if phil says he thinks he has a competitive team well what is he suppose to say otherwise?
I like the direction we are going in. Its evolved with Mills and thus Phil's good and bad are still on this team.

Why would you forget what Rosen said during a podcast after Phil was fired? Rosen is Phil's friend, coached with him, wrote the Phil Files, wrote Phil's side of things in his column on FanRag, and also knew a lot about some of the issues with players that were not public knowledge. My opinion before hearing the podcast was that Phil negotiated for Melo to take less money in year two of his deal so that he could have more money to spend on free agents. My opinion also was that Phil gave the ntc to Melo's agent as a bargaining tool to get Melo to take less money in year 2. That has been my opinion since the deal happened. Nothing researched, it was talked about on here a lot at the time and throughout the rest of Melo's tenure. Rosen is Phil's friend and knew what was going on. If Phil wanted it out there that he didn't negotiate the ntc/melo contract Rosen would have gotten it out there. He certainly got everything else Phil wanted out there. Again, Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy for basketball decisions. No waivering or exceptions.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
fishmike
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12/21/2017  4:12 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
fishmike wrote:Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us


Yes, in the aftermath the points are all fair and we have the hindsight to see all the mistakes.
My point is to go to th exact moment in those negotiations and what was the conditions to which Melo has the leverage to walk and we are empty handed. I contend Phil and Melo were never a good pair but in the end melo sold tickets and we got Enes, Canter and good 2nd round pick which was better than nothing.
One has to reason that the subject of Melo had to be a topic during Phils negotiation with Dolan.
We paid a high price for Melo. My pea brain logic is Phil was given full autonomy but when it comes to Melo MAYBE there was a concession, or a best efforts concession to maintain melo for as long as it’s feasible.
I say that because so much makes no sense unless Phil believed melo when he said he would accept the Triangle and recruit others to come to NY.

So....

1. Phil was stupid to believe Melo
2. Phil was stupid to give him the NTC, but he might have walked. Did Melo think “I’m not doing no triangle and If I don’t have a NTC Phil will exile me quickly!

Both are culpable in my mind. I’m sympathetic to Phil because I had hoped his elevated thinking would more than translate. It actually failed. Melo on the other hand was not sincere in his efforts to change. His words too were empty about “sacrificing his game” etc etc.
I really was looking forward to Melo taking on this challenge and elevating his game a notch. Not physically but in terms of ball movement and leadership. He was a good teammate and a great scorer.


We don't agree about Melo's contract/Ntc. I am not sure what you consider full autonomy on basketball decisions but that is what Rosen said Phil had while he was with the Knicks. He was very clear about it. There was no waffling, exceptions etc. and there could have been as Phil was already fired. I responded too you about this earlier but I don't think you replied back. The Melo deal is on Phil. He wanted cap space when Bargs and Amare expired so it was negotiated that Melo would take less in year two. My feeling has always been that if Dolan was involved it would have been a full max with the NFC. This was one of Phil's mistakes.

Forget what Rosen said. You have enough hindsight to clarify your own opinion and logic based on what transpired. You read up plenty to form your own opinion and can likely smell bullshyt when its dished out.
Do you think its possible the word "autonomous" was used to also placate knick fans?
We have had Walsh take ownership of Amare and Melo transactions. It never smelled right and we learned in time it was not his thing.
GM's and presidents generally take the hit for the owner. Sometimes the credit too.
Im not ruling out your scenario, it just does not seem like PHil ever owned the decision to have Melo. It seems like Melo never bought in to the Triangle.
There is something missing so Im filling in the question with logic based on my own conjecture. If you don't agree, that's cool. But my push back is based on "Well rose wrote it, so it must be true". For 60mil Phil phils job included taking ownership of things.
NBA players and managers are prone to tell their audience what they want to hear. Bottom line NBA is an entertainment company. Some teams win more than others but hope sells tickets. And if phil says he thinks he has a competitive team well what is he suppose to say otherwise?
I like the direction we are going in. Its evolved with Mills and thus Phil's good and bad are still on this team.

Why would you forget what Rosen said during a podcast after Phil was fired? Rosen is Phil's friend, coached with him, wrote the Phil Files, wrote Phil's side of things in his column on FanRag, and also knew a lot about some of the issues with players that were not public knowledge. My opinion before hearing the podcast was that Phil negotiated for Melo to take less money in year two of his deal so that he could have more money to spend on free agents. My opinion also was that Phil gave the ntc to Melo's agent as a bargaining tool to get Melo to take less money in year 2. That has been my opinion since the deal happened. Nothing researched, it was talked about on here a lot at the time and throughout the rest of Melo's tenure. Rosen is Phil's friend and knew what was going on. If Phil wanted it out there that he didn't negotiate the ntc/melo contract Rosen would have gotten it out there. He certainly got everything else Phil wanted out there. Again, Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy for basketball decisions. No waivering or exceptions.
dear Melo,
fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
Nalod
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12/21/2017  4:15 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
fishmike wrote:Crush's points are fair. All of Phil's mistakes revolve around Melo. Melo was not a max player. He was declining. Mistake #1. Melo should never have been given an NTC. Mistake #2. Phil thought Melo "had another level he could go to." He didnt. Mistake #3. Phil tried to appease Melo. "Are we moving fast enough for you?" That resulting in spending on and bringing in Noah/Rose/Lee. Mistake #4. Then to boot he made the scene so toxic for Melo it became a get me out of here and he takes a trade to OKC. Hey... that actually worked out for us


Yes, in the aftermath the points are all fair and we have the hindsight to see all the mistakes.
My point is to go to th exact moment in those negotiations and what was the conditions to which Melo has the leverage to walk and we are empty handed. I contend Phil and Melo were never a good pair but in the end melo sold tickets and we got Enes, Canter and good 2nd round pick which was better than nothing.
One has to reason that the subject of Melo had to be a topic during Phils negotiation with Dolan.
We paid a high price for Melo. My pea brain logic is Phil was given full autonomy but when it comes to Melo MAYBE there was a concession, or a best efforts concession to maintain melo for as long as it’s feasible.
I say that because so much makes no sense unless Phil believed melo when he said he would accept the Triangle and recruit others to come to NY.

So....

1. Phil was stupid to believe Melo
2. Phil was stupid to give him the NTC, but he might have walked. Did Melo think “I’m not doing no triangle and If I don’t have a NTC Phil will exile me quickly!

Both are culpable in my mind. I’m sympathetic to Phil because I had hoped his elevated thinking would more than translate. It actually failed. Melo on the other hand was not sincere in his efforts to change. His words too were empty about “sacrificing his game” etc etc.
I really was looking forward to Melo taking on this challenge and elevating his game a notch. Not physically but in terms of ball movement and leadership. He was a good teammate and a great scorer.


We don't agree about Melo's contract/Ntc. I am not sure what you consider full autonomy on basketball decisions but that is what Rosen said Phil had while he was with the Knicks. He was very clear about it. There was no waffling, exceptions etc. and there could have been as Phil was already fired. I responded too you about this earlier but I don't think you replied back. The Melo deal is on Phil. He wanted cap space when Bargs and Amare expired so it was negotiated that Melo would take less in year two. My feeling has always been that if Dolan was involved it would have been a full max with the NFC. This was one of Phil's mistakes.

Forget what Rosen said. You have enough hindsight to clarify your own opinion and logic based on what transpired. You read up plenty to form your own opinion and can likely smell bullshyt when its dished out.
Do you think its possible the word "autonomous" was used to also placate knick fans?
We have had Walsh take ownership of Amare and Melo transactions. It never smelled right and we learned in time it was not his thing.
GM's and presidents generally take the hit for the owner. Sometimes the credit too.
Im not ruling out your scenario, it just does not seem like PHil ever owned the decision to have Melo. It seems like Melo never bought in to the Triangle.
There is something missing so Im filling in the question with logic based on my own conjecture. If you don't agree, that's cool. But my push back is based on "Well rose wrote it, so it must be true". For 60mil Phil phils job included taking ownership of things.
NBA players and managers are prone to tell their audience what they want to hear. Bottom line NBA is an entertainment company. Some teams win more than others but hope sells tickets. And if phil says he thinks he has a competitive team well what is he suppose to say otherwise?
I like the direction we are going in. Its evolved with Mills and thus Phil's good and bad are still on this team.

Why would you forget what Rosen said during a podcast after Phil was fired? Rosen is Phil's friend, coached with him, wrote the Phil Files, wrote Phil's side of things in his column on FanRag, and also knew a lot about some of the issues with players that were not public knowledge. My opinion before hearing the podcast was that Phil negotiated for Melo to take less money in year two of his deal so that he could have more money to spend on free agents. My opinion also was that Phil gave the ntc to Melo's agent as a bargaining tool to get Melo to take less money in year 2. That has been my opinion since the deal happened. Nothing researched, it was talked about on here a lot at the time and throughout the rest of Melo's tenure. Rosen is Phil's friend and knew what was going on. If Phil wanted it out there that he didn't negotiate the ntc/melo contract Rosen would have gotten it out there. He certainly got everything else Phil wanted out there. Again, Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy for basketball decisions. No waivering or exceptions.

Good take, and good job presenting. I do find most of what you said plausible and in the end until phil writes his book we'll can leave much of this as is.
I don't believe what comes out of these guys mouths for the most part as they one thing and do another.
As for the Money and negotiation I don't dispute that. Just that PHil had full autonomy. I'd say he did except when it came to melo. Why? I find it hard to believe that PHil thinking as a coach would believe melo would change. If he did, then it might explain why he felt and behaved like a scorned lover! Imagine the horrible abuse Melo took when Phil stated "He holds the ball too long"!!! Im sure Melo felt violated like he was subject to a casting interview with Harvey Weinstein!!!
As for the NTC to take less money, yeah that makes sense. Was it dumb? Not for Melo. He had the ability to get it he would be foolish not to. Big trade kicker too!!!

Anger sells, don't buy!
fwk00
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12/21/2017  11:07 PM
Every time we win a game this year I am reminded of how badly Melo played.

Stay Melo.... somewhere else.

Jmpasq
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12/22/2017  6:54 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:I call bullsh!t on this story.

Harris, Favors AND THREE FIRST ROUND draft picks and Nuggets opted for the Knicks trash instead??

That was the package they sent to Utah for DWill except it was two first round picks.

IM thinking Utah GM at the time if I recall was crafty to have piggy backed on the Melo deal and got a good package on a player who declined in two years after.
Melo for all his short comings primarily stayed healthy and put in the work to stay on his game. He got that second contract. Dolan got to keep his box office draw.
We'll never know until Phil is clear to write his book what the deal was with the NTC and who precipitated that contract.

we know his buddy Charlie Rosen said Phil had complete autonomy on all moves during his tenure. He said tha last June.

You take everything quoted literally? NBA is full of guys telling us what we want to hear and team management in the job of selling tickes.
"Phil said team was competitive and then we win 17 games". Well, you think he gonna say "We suck, tanking and phuch you season tix holders?"
Of course not. You think Phil loved melo and gave him the NTC because he thought Melo was the man to lead his triangle? PHil was gullible to Melo's charms?
What does logic say? For a moment not care about defending the "PHil is a evil and stupid" code and think objectively?
You think when PHil was critical of him and "Devalued him" that other GM's were like "oh, we gonna get him for nothing because of what phil said! Those tape my scouting department put together of melo does not show anyting about melo holding the ball too long!!"....Riiiiight.

You think Phil loved Melo and his potential at the time to adhere to his Triangle and give him self to it as Michael did so many years ago???

What I think might have happened in the Melo negotiation is that Rosen/Melo agreed to take a little less than a max deal and in return Phil gave Melo the ntc. I believe Phil thought he was the smartest guy in the room and an experienced agent got the better deal for his client. What I know is that Phil's friend and confidant said on a podcast after Phil was fired that Phil had total autonomy. He didn't leave any room for speculation. He certainly could have and Phil was already fired so it wouldn't have mattered. I always thought if Dolan was involved he would have given Melo the max with the ntc.

The no trade clause is worth way more than that couple million he left on the table. That was seriously short sighted by Phil. I don't understand why they didn't make him a take or leave it deal. No one was giving Melo anywhere near what we gave him, it was really stupid. The Bulls offered him 2 years. Even other teams were limited to 4 and 96. They should of tops offered the same 4 96 deal that every else could with no no trade clause.

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