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Nalod
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12/19/2017  4:26 PM
Your focused on the path. To move on you must look at the net result.
Don't you know by now that Nixluva will rewrite a more romantic ending and lubricate it so it feels good?
So let him have it. You seemed to be focused on "Intent" than "Result".
PHil attempted to rebuild on the fly and perhaps not end up in the depths. With just two first round picks in four associative drafts, or basically 1 in the first three years he could not build thru the draft. At the same time, "Thy cupboard empty" and he had little assets to make deals.
PHil did some good things and only Noah's contract is the only remaining stain. Dont' most teams have something they regret?
Phil messed up on things. PHil was ambitious and tried to do things perhaps not done before. He failed to some extent but the franchise dug out of a hole.
What is not presentable is the alternative contrast had Knicks not hired him. Then what? Assume Shump and JR get resigned? Teams stays stagnant at 37 wins or likely dropped/
So while you blast phil all day long, you have nothing but hindsight conjecture to back it up. We all saw 17 wins. We all saw what came next.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
AUTOADVERT
nixluva
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12/19/2017  6:51 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
fishmike wrote:
nixluva wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Nalod wrote:Nobody is defending Phil. We recognize his mistakes and realize he was an agent of change and one that Dolan felt would do it.
Larger than life he commanded respect. Offering the job to kerr was not a mistake. Hiring Fish was. Trying to implement the triangle by proxy instead of coaching it himself was a mistake.
But instead of glorious runs on the back of KT, sheed, Kidd, Baron Davis and asking JR smith to keep his shyt together, we would falter in the end.
Phil tore it down. its why we went from a 37 wins to 17. You think that 37 win team was on the rise? Would have repeated or done better? That's comical.
Tyson and Bargnani worth keeping?
He should have resigned JR smith and Shump?
Bring in Lebron, Love and Kyrie it makes a good team.
Knicks1248 would rather be right then team succeed. "that guy".
If team has gone sideways but is younger with rookies and developing players that means we on the way up, not on the way down.
We have all our no. 1 picks going forward. That's on the way up, not down.
all of this. The bold is the part they cant accept, but the whole post is spot on.

The Knicks are a very young team playing a new style and creating a new identity. That part alone is hard enough but they are getting it. Next up.. get better players for that identity. We have some keepers and a ton of question marks.


Phil wasn't the perfect guy as an exec. He did a LOT of unnecessary things and made many mistakes. That said he also set the direction of the franchise on its current course and the Management team in place now is better equipped to take it from here. Mills, Perry and Hornacek seem to be a solid team and work well together. There's no DRAMA and it's only been about BASKETBALL.
This is perfect, its really is. He helped steer the ship and build a foundation. We even got the best of both GMs so far. We got Phil to work the draft, and Perry to make the trade.

Anyway... hey you see Melo's game last night? Yea, me neither.


Can someone please explain the ship steering? Also, what Phil guys are entrenched to carry on his vision and direction? In regards to steering the ship, the current management team is focusing on adding guys 25 and younger. Phil's first trade brought in two guys that were 33, supposed to be a part of the core but we're on their last legs. A ton of other guts passed through. Also, the team ranked in the bottom 5 for player continuity during his tenure. Guys in the organization with ties to Phil that I am aware of are Mike Miller, Gaines in a lesser role, Jeff and Rambis. Only one of those guys is a triangle guy. How many times does Jeff have to say after games that when the offense isn't going well the defense declines before a connection can be made to the team being ranked 29th, 24th and 24th in defense during Phil's tenure sucking in part because of the offense. Again, if you want to say in an effort to win and impose the triangle Phil's rosters went to the lottery three consecutive years and the team was able to get KP and Frank I can agree with that. I can't agree that any of the failings were orchestrated with the intent of the team being where it is today. The plan wasn't to tank or for another executive to come in and get a good return for the worst contract in the league. The plan wasn't for Jeff to go from almost being fired to being a COY candidate once his former boss was fired and he was allowed to run things his own way.

It's not just about the Triangle and wasn't even LAST YEAR! Phil brought in Jeff to move away from PURE TRIANGLE. Fact is they NEVER ran even 50% Triangle at any time last year.

They kept Phil THROUGH THE DRAFT!!! Mills was retained and allowed to make signings BEFORE signing Perry. Jeff and Rambis are still here. This is not a clean break from the Phil Era but more of an evolution of that path.

The style of play is still very similar to what it was under Phil and Jeff. So they've dropped calling any of it Triangle but in essence they are still running A LOT of the same KIND of actions that they did last year. Lots of Weaves, DHO's and Cuts but more PnR. Lot's of Midrange looks, post ups with Splits but more 3's. Some of the change is more about the players we've added compared to those we got rid of.

Uptown
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12/19/2017  8:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/19/2017  8:58 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
fishmike wrote:
nixluva wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Nalod wrote:Nobody is defending Phil. We recognize his mistakes and realize he was an agent of change and one that Dolan felt would do it.
Larger than life he commanded respect. Offering the job to kerr was not a mistake. Hiring Fish was. Trying to implement the triangle by proxy instead of coaching it himself was a mistake.
But instead of glorious runs on the back of KT, sheed, Kidd, Baron Davis and asking JR smith to keep his shyt together, we would falter in the end.
Phil tore it down. its why we went from a 37 wins to 17. You think that 37 win team was on the rise? Would have repeated or done better? That's comical.
Tyson and Bargnani worth keeping?
He should have resigned JR smith and Shump?
Bring in Lebron, Love and Kyrie it makes a good team.
Knicks1248 would rather be right then team succeed. "that guy".
If team has gone sideways but is younger with rookies and developing players that means we on the way up, not on the way down.
We have all our no. 1 picks going forward. That's on the way up, not down.
all of this. The bold is the part they cant accept, but the whole post is spot on.

The Knicks are a very young team playing a new style and creating a new identity. That part alone is hard enough but they are getting it. Next up.. get better players for that identity. We have some keepers and a ton of question marks.


Phil wasn't the perfect guy as an exec. He did a LOT of unnecessary things and made many mistakes. That said he also set the direction of the franchise on its current course and the Management team in place now is better equipped to take it from here. Mills, Perry and Hornacek seem to be a solid team and work well together. There's no DRAMA and it's only been about BASKETBALL.
This is perfect, its really is. He helped steer the ship and build a foundation. We even got the best of both GMs so far. We got Phil to work the draft, and Perry to make the trade.

Anyway... hey you see Melo's game last night? Yea, me neither.


Can someone please explain the ship steering? Also, what Phil guys are entrenched to carry on his vision and direction? In regards to steering the ship, the current management team is focusing on adding guys 25 and younger. Phil's first trade brought in two guys that were 33, supposed to be a part of the core but we're on their last legs. A ton of other guts passed through. Also, the team ranked in the bottom 5 for player continuity during his tenure. Guys in the organization with ties to Phil that I am aware of are Mike Miller, Gaines in a lesser role, Jeff and Rambis. Only one of those guys is a triangle guy. How many times does Jeff have to say after games that when the offense isn't going well the defense declines before a connection can be made to the team being ranked 29th, 24th and 24th in defense during Phil's tenure sucking in part because of the offense. Again, if you want to say in an effort to win and impose the triangle Phil's rosters went to the lottery three consecutive years and the team was able to get KP and Frank I can agree with that. I can't agree that any of the failings were orchestrated with the intent of the team being where it is today. The plan wasn't to tank or for another executive to come in and get a good return for the worst contract in the league. The plan wasn't for Jeff to go from almost being fired to being a COY candidate once his former boss was fired and he was allowed to run things his own way.

Heres your explanation....

TripleThreat
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12/19/2017  10:39 PM
Nalod wrote:What is not presentable is the alternative contrast had Knicks not hired him.


They could have easily done what needed to be done from the start.

Hire a progressive YOUNG ( relative to Phil Jackson's age) GM who had

A) Success in other winning organizations
B) Had a background working in an actual NBA front office ( i.e. someone groomed for the job)
C) Someone not with an incentive to defend a past legacy
D) Someone who could give the Knicks a future at the position if he worked out
E) Preestablished relationships with other GMs, owners, scouts, agents and the league office

The Knicks could have hired Scott Perry YEARS AGO. And the Knicks would be that much further along.

What I list above is PAINFULLY SIMPLE.

And had someone else been hired, the Knicks might still have ended up with Zinger anyway ( it's not like he was such a touted guy he was going to go first overall in his draft)

Phil Jackson f**ked this team up. No, everything is not his fault. But he didn't help himself. At all. Not trading off draft picks, sorry, under the Stepien Rule, it's not like he was in a wealth of options there.

The same BS that people do with Melo is what they do with Phil Jackson - Saying if you can't blame him for everything, then you can't blame him for anything. What the flying f**k does that kind of logic come from?

Newsflash. It's not logic at work. Jackson was a painfully horrible hire. Aging. No previous front office experience. Going to shove a complicated and controversial offense onto the team. Had preexisting enemies around the league. Saying Jackson is some kind of genius for getting Zinger is like saying the Colts were elite brain trust material for drafting Andrew Luck. He got a lottery pick and made the best of it given what was already off the board. He went for positional value. There are interns in the NBA who would have and could have done the same thing.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
nixluva
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12/20/2017  8:16 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:What is not presentable is the alternative contrast had Knicks not hired him.


They could have easily done what needed to be done from the start.

Hire a progressive YOUNG ( relative to Phil Jackson's age) GM who had

A) Success in other winning organizations
B) Had a background working in an actual NBA front office ( i.e. someone groomed for the job)
C) Someone not with an incentive to defend a past legacy
D) Someone who could give the Knicks a future at the position if he worked out
E) Preestablished relationships with other GMs, owners, scouts, agents and the league office

The Knicks could have hired Scott Perry YEARS AGO. And the Knicks would be that much further along.

What I list above is PAINFULLY SIMPLE.

And had someone else been hired, the Knicks might still have ended up with Zinger anyway ( it's not like he was such a touted guy he was going to go first overall in his draft)

Phil Jackson f**ked this team up. No, everything is not his fault. But he didn't help himself. At all. Not trading off draft picks, sorry, under the Stepien Rule, it's not like he was in a wealth of options there.

The same BS that people do with Melo is what they do with Phil Jackson - Saying if you can't blame him for everything, then you can't blame him for anything. What the flying f**k does that kind of logic come from?

Newsflash. It's not logic at work. Jackson was a painfully horrible hire. Aging. No previous front office experience. Going to shove a complicated and controversial offense onto the team. Had preexisting enemies around the league. Saying Jackson is some kind of genius for getting Zinger is like saying the Colts were elite brain trust material for drafting Andrew Luck. He got a lottery pick and made the best of it given what was already off the board. He went for positional value. There are interns in the NBA who would have and could have done the same thing.


All perfectly logical except for one big thing! DOLAN! You’re forgetting that Dolan was only going to TRUST a guy like Phil enough to let him do what he did to the extent that he did. We needed Phil to get to this point because of Dolan.

Phil was ALWAYS here for a short term and his stated goal was to redirect and organize the franchise. To groom a replacement and build a foundation. Guess what we have not made wholesale changes but rather there was a passing of the torch to Mills and MUCH of the Front Office and Coaching remains. They’ve added but the framework is a continuation.

Also you get someone else as Prez that doesn’t guarantee you still draft KP!!! This is pure speculation and you know it. They let Phil stay through the draft. That cemented the overall direction of how the team would be built.

No one is absolving Phil of blame for his mistakes. The point is that he did leave the team in a better place than when he arrived. Sure we are still dealing with Noah’s contract but overall there’s a lot more positive with this franchise than negative.

Bonn1997
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12/20/2017  8:33 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/20/2017  8:36 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:We're such a different defensive team without Rose and Melo. It's unreal, really. I'm so happy we're seeing the fruits of getting rid of those guys. They almost never played defense and it set the worst culture possible.

Kanter can't protect the basket, but he moves his feet. When Kanter gets beat by layups inside then Horny goes to O'Quinn or even KP.

Lance Thomas moves his feet.
CLee was always a solid defender.
Frank really is oustanding defensively. Covers ground exceptionally well.
Dougie fights hard.
Ron is a complete bull.
KP's one of the best rim protectors in the league.

If we could get a starting wing that can defend the 3, we may have potential to be one of the top 10 defensive teams in the league when Frank starts in the future.

I don't know if it's just me, but I felt our defense got better once Timmy got hurt. All of a sudden we're playing defense that you can see win playoff games in the future. Not a knock on Timmy, I just think this team is full of character guys who care about defense and each other.


They have played 1 team over .500 over that span. The Pacers scored 115 and waxed them by 18 points

How many times you have to here a player say "it was m massive amount of confusion from top to bottom" before you start singling out any one player. This team plays better defense because the philosophy has changed, You heard KP say they were still confused on defense during the preseason, and that they needed to simplify things. That exactly what the did.

The overall effort is definitely better, but you can see that the schemes and rotations they run masks the flaws of some of their weaker defenders.

the Knicks defense was ranked 29th, 24th, and 24th for Phil's three years and each year he thought he had assembled a playoff team. We're such a different team since Phil left. Thank goodness no one was traded or resigned based on exit meeting performance.

It's amazing how some are still pinning our misfortunes on melo and rose, knowing we were winning without phil


What did we win before Phil? You mean that one playoff series? Phil just took a bad team (around .400 when he came in) and made it a lot worse. Super-Max Melo makes his teams worse too. They deserved each other.
fishmike
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12/20/2017  9:00 AM
Uptown wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fishmike wrote:
nixluva wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Nalod wrote:Nobody is defending Phil. We recognize his mistakes and realize he was an agent of change and one that Dolan felt would do it.
Larger than life he commanded respect. Offering the job to kerr was not a mistake. Hiring Fish was. Trying to implement the triangle by proxy instead of coaching it himself was a mistake.
But instead of glorious runs on the back of KT, sheed, Kidd, Baron Davis and asking JR smith to keep his shyt together, we would falter in the end.
Phil tore it down. its why we went from a 37 wins to 17. You think that 37 win team was on the rise? Would have repeated or done better? That's comical.
Tyson and Bargnani worth keeping?
He should have resigned JR smith and Shump?
Bring in Lebron, Love and Kyrie it makes a good team.
Knicks1248 would rather be right then team succeed. "that guy".
If team has gone sideways but is younger with rookies and developing players that means we on the way up, not on the way down.
We have all our no. 1 picks going forward. That's on the way up, not down.
all of this. The bold is the part they cant accept, but the whole post is spot on.

The Knicks are a very young team playing a new style and creating a new identity. That part alone is hard enough but they are getting it. Next up.. get better players for that identity. We have some keepers and a ton of question marks.


Phil wasn't the perfect guy as an exec. He did a LOT of unnecessary things and made many mistakes. That said he also set the direction of the franchise on its current course and the Management team in place now is better equipped to take it from here. Mills, Perry and Hornacek seem to be a solid team and work well together. There's no DRAMA and it's only been about BASKETBALL.
This is perfect, its really is. He helped steer the ship and build a foundation. We even got the best of both GMs so far. We got Phil to work the draft, and Perry to make the trade.

Anyway... hey you see Melo's game last night? Yea, me neither.


Can someone please explain the ship steering? Also, what Phil guys are entrenched to carry on his vision and direction? In regards to steering the ship, the current management team is focusing on adding guys 25 and younger. Phil's first trade brought in two guys that were 33, supposed to be a part of the core but we're on their last legs. A ton of other guts passed through. Also, the team ranked in the bottom 5 for player continuity during his tenure. Guys in the organization with ties to Phil that I am aware of are Mike Miller, Gaines in a lesser role, Jeff and Rambis. Only one of those guys is a triangle guy. How many times does Jeff have to say after games that when the offense isn't going well the defense declines before a connection can be made to the team being ranked 29th, 24th and 24th in defense during Phil's tenure sucking in part because of the offense. Again, if you want to say in an effort to win and impose the triangle Phil's rosters went to the lottery three consecutive years and the team was able to get KP and Frank I can agree with that. I can't agree that any of the failings were orchestrated with the intent of the team being where it is today. The plan wasn't to tank or for another executive to come in and get a good return for the worst contract in the league. The plan wasn't for Jeff to go from almost being fired to being a COY candidate once his former boss was fired and he was allowed to run things his own way.

Heres your explanation....

No. Nobody can explain it to you or Uptown because you have too many feelings in your way. You are just repeating the stuff about Phil we already said, minus the positives. Its your take. Maintaining Phil's terribleness is a core value for a few here. Not so much for others.

Phil tried to built a team that played system basketball and played on both ends of the floor. A team that shared the ball and elevated each other's games. Phil's insistence on the triangle and his poor management/relations with coaches and players ensured his over all vision would not succeed. Nix has said that. I have said that. However he found plenty of good pieces and made plenty of good decisions in trying to achieve that. Those good decisions are now bearing fruit.
Phil built this roster to fit his direction. You know.. every player we have sans Jack/Kanter/McD
Phil brought in the coach to fit his direction. You know, the one that has all the players "bought in."
Phil brought in the scout that drafted KP (uptown will say "but he really wanted OK4")

But yea... just keep pretending that because Phil failed utterly at 1/3 of his job that also means he must have failed in the other 2/3. He didnt, and you are seeing WHY he didnt. You are seeing in KP's growth, Frank the high IQ "triangle guard", vets like Lee/Lance/KOQ who are playing integral roles, and he left us with a legit pipeline of young guys.

Anyone who says the Knicks are doing better because Phil is gone is correct. Its helped free the coaching staff (hey! Rambis is still here!). Jeff needed PHil gone to do what they want and that has helped. Phil needed to go. He's also the guy who brought everyone including the coach in here, got Dolan's hands off the team and ultimately did the Knicks the biggest favor possible by running Melo out of town.

Overall Phil was not great here but he accomplished plenty of good things and left us in MUCH better position than when he came in. IF you cant see the "ship steering" its because you choose not to.

fishmike
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12/20/2017  9:12 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:What is not presentable is the alternative contrast had Knicks not hired him.


They could have easily done what needed to be done from the start.

Hire a progressive YOUNG ( relative to Phil Jackson's age) GM who had

A) Success in other winning organizations
B) Had a background working in an actual NBA front office ( i.e. someone groomed for the job)
C) Someone not with an incentive to defend a past legacy
D) Someone who could give the Knicks a future at the position if he worked out
E) Preestablished relationships with other GMs, owners, scouts, agents and the league office

The Knicks could have hired Scott Perry YEARS AGO. And the Knicks would be that much further along.

What I list above is PAINFULLY SIMPLE.

And had someone else been hired, the Knicks might still have ended up with Zinger anyway ( it's not like he was such a touted guy he was going to go first overall in his draft)

Phil Jackson f**ked this team up. No, everything is not his fault. But he didn't help himself. At all. Not trading off draft picks, sorry, under the Stepien Rule, it's not like he was in a wealth of options there.

The same BS that people do with Melo is what they do with Phil Jackson - Saying if you can't blame him for everything, then you can't blame him for anything. What the flying f**k does that kind of logic come from?

Newsflash. It's not logic at work. Jackson was a painfully horrible hire. Aging. No previous front office experience. Going to shove a complicated and controversial offense onto the team. Had preexisting enemies around the league. Saying Jackson is some kind of genius for getting Zinger is like saying the Colts were elite brain trust material for drafting Andrew Luck. He got a lottery pick and made the best of it given what was already off the board. He went for positional value. There are interns in the NBA who would have and could have done the same thing.

you left out the part about getting Dolan's hands off the team. That was not going to happen hiring Perry 3 years ago. So you can use logic, or you can look at reality. One lives in MSG, one does not... but perhaps your new to following the team or understanding the world of humans?

Phil served a very important role here. Perry doesnt not succeed if Phil doesnt break things down first. Jerry West was the other guy on the radar. See the pattern? Dolan believes the only one who can teach him something new on guitar is Eric Clapton.

Phil accomplished what every fan here has wined about at some point or another. He got Dolan's hands off the team. The rest? Meh... I agree with most here. Phil was not good, but your ABCDE points were pointless until Dolan has his hands off.

Triple... of the ABCDE above which one of those did Donnie Walsh NOT have?

Nalod
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12/20/2017  12:00 PM
Some think "Phil did some good things by accident, not by exercising any good judgement!". Blinded by the hate.
Gullible.
Its like some of you would think Reeces peanut butter cups were made by accident.

or,
"Rose said PHil had full autonomy so I believe Phil was dumb to give him money". And then phil turns on him inside of 18 months? Self sabotage?
Is that even logical?

Now, is this "Phil Love"? Or, any form of logic? You think that if you don't know it then it must not be?
Some of you blame Walsh for Amare. As if that's logical for many reasons. I don't have a signed document to say it was dolan but what have we learned:

1. Dolan did't like Walsh.
2. Walsh never had autonomy.
3. Walsh can't spend 100 mil without his owner approving.
4. Walsh can't spend that kind of money on an uninsured contract.
5. Walsh never made that kind of move in his career with Indiana.

Now somewhere there is a quote that likely leads to walsh being behind it. But logically, does that really mean anything other than the dude has his owners back? Dolan has a history of crawling over the backs of his emasculated GM's. He did it with Layden to get Dice, and with Walsh to get Melo.

I think Phil had made one concession with Dolan and that was he would try to work with Melo.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
weve been playing very decent defensive basketball

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