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Give Me Your Ntilikina Evaluation
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newyorknewyork
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12/13/2017  11:07 AM
fishmike wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.

i would add that Butler was the 30th pick in the draft and Gianni's was 15th. Guys that scouted Gianni's raved about his potential but going 8th in a strong draft is going to up the expectations.

+100

Add that Giannis was a 6'11" freak. Which is main reason he has become a huge scorer. Some just dont understand tgis was about the type of player that should be taken at an 8 and not Frank. Its a simple argument. Think its just Old school guys not paying attention to where the NBA is and is heading. GS and Houston have tremendous scorers. And none of them were unable to adapt to a collective defensive unit. This notion that Frank can become a very good scorer but high level offensive players are unable to become sound defenders is short sighted. Some of us think it's easier to teach Steph Curry to be part of a good defensive scheme while others think they can teach Frank to be Steph Curry. Just look at Macbuckets amd Kanter.

Btw. Was at Laker game last night and Frank looked great. If he keeps getting more confident with his jumper and more aggressive on drives, he will become a very good point guard.

I get the notion. But I think you have just sold Frank specifically short. You made a mention of where the NBA is headed. Frank is a player that could potentially guard 3 positions. Frank potentially could play on and off ball offensively and play multiple positions offensively. Frank could potentially play multiple roles for a team and given different assignments through out a game. Flexibility like that is were the NBA he headed. And Frank while he may not have a scorers mentality in the slightest at the moment. He has displayed the skill to score in a variety of ways. He can get buckets in the flow of a game from 3, pull up jumpers, post ups, and hopefully penetration lol. His willingness and ability to pass, His ability and willingness to defend, to go with his over sized frame and arms giving him a physical advantage over most guards defensively. He isn't a 21-22 yr old college junior or senior who developed his game and body over the yrs. He is 19 yrs old who hasn't come close to developing physically. Growing in the hardest position in the NBA.

exactly... if there is an NBA trend its position-less basketball. When Frank is on a big because of a switch its literally fun to watch. He's tough to shoot over and he's even tougher to pass around.

Sorry.. great 2-way players are not easy pickings anywhere. Teams get lucky late sometimes, but that is most certainly NOT a trend. Lets see... a PG who had already shown strong play vs. grown men at 18 years old, 6'5 with a 7'0 wingspan and the last time he played against his peers he was essentially declared the best young guard in EU and Hosfstra says "naa... not with the 8th pick. Not good enough." I mean you just kinda shrug at that. I get that guy's had their ponies and favorites in the race but how people see Frank after 25 games in the NBA and *STILL* dont think he was worth the 8th pick is funny. He looks pretty good to me, but hey, I like triangle guards

Of the 4 guards we were looking at in Smith, Monk, Ntilikina and Mitchell they ALL were worthy of the 8th pick. If you had to rank them based on their first 20ish games Mitchell has looked the best, followed by Frank, then Dennis Smith and Monk has really struggled.

What's also interesting is that Phil Jackson the fossil that he was bring antiquated styles. Was willing to select unique players like KP and Frank who are clear representations of modern bball.

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Nalod
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12/13/2017  12:37 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
fishmike wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.

i would add that Butler was the 30th pick in the draft and Gianni's was 15th. Guys that scouted Gianni's raved about his potential but going 8th in a strong draft is going to up the expectations.

+100

Add that Giannis was a 6'11" freak. Which is main reason he has become a huge scorer. Some just dont understand tgis was about the type of player that should be taken at an 8 and not Frank. Its a simple argument. Think its just Old school guys not paying attention to where the NBA is and is heading. GS and Houston have tremendous scorers. And none of them were unable to adapt to a collective defensive unit. This notion that Frank can become a very good scorer but high level offensive players are unable to become sound defenders is short sighted. Some of us think it's easier to teach Steph Curry to be part of a good defensive scheme while others think they can teach Frank to be Steph Curry. Just look at Macbuckets amd Kanter.

Btw. Was at Laker game last night and Frank looked great. If he keeps getting more confident with his jumper and more aggressive on drives, he will become a very good point guard.

I get the notion. But I think you have just sold Frank specifically short. You made a mention of where the NBA is headed. Frank is a player that could potentially guard 3 positions. Frank potentially could play on and off ball offensively and play multiple positions offensively. Frank could potentially play multiple roles for a team and given different assignments through out a game. Flexibility like that is were the NBA he headed. And Frank while he may not have a scorers mentality in the slightest at the moment. He has displayed the skill to score in a variety of ways. He can get buckets in the flow of a game from 3, pull up jumpers, post ups, and hopefully penetration lol. His willingness and ability to pass, His ability and willingness to defend, to go with his over sized frame and arms giving him a physical advantage over most guards defensively. He isn't a 21-22 yr old college junior or senior who developed his game and body over the yrs. He is 19 yrs old who hasn't come close to developing physically. Growing in the hardest position in the NBA.

exactly... if there is an NBA trend its position-less basketball. When Frank is on a big because of a switch its literally fun to watch. He's tough to shoot over and he's even tougher to pass around.

Sorry.. great 2-way players are not easy pickings anywhere. Teams get lucky late sometimes, but that is most certainly NOT a trend. Lets see... a PG who had already shown strong play vs. grown men at 18 years old, 6'5 with a 7'0 wingspan and the last time he played against his peers he was essentially declared the best young guard in EU and Hosfstra says "naa... not with the 8th pick. Not good enough." I mean you just kinda shrug at that. I get that guy's had their ponies and favorites in the race but how people see Frank after 25 games in the NBA and *STILL* dont think he was worth the 8th pick is funny. He looks pretty good to me, but hey, I like triangle guards

Of the 4 guards we were looking at in Smith, Monk, Ntilikina and Mitchell they ALL were worthy of the 8th pick. If you had to rank them based on their first 20ish games Mitchell has looked the best, followed by Frank, then Dennis Smith and Monk has really struggled.

What's also interesting is that Phil Jackson the fossil that he was bring antiquated styles. Was willing to select unique players like KP and Frank who are clear representations of modern bball.

What PHil didn't get in my opinion was how hard it would be to institutionalize the Triangle offense as a state of mind. No doubt PHil with his 11 rings is the best coach ever. Yes, you need talent to win. All winning coaches have that. But phil took the task to basically holistically elevate the players mind to accept a higher process and thus embrace the fluid offense as instinct. His greatest achievement was to get Jordan to buy in. Once done and successful he had the cred. So it was the "ZEN" process. Perhaps Phil might have been as successful with another offensive scheme if he could elevate the thought. To have had a core of Jordan and Pippen buy in became the true driving force. He got 5 rings with Lakers but had a far harder time with Kobe who pushed back at times.
If Phil coached the knicks I think he could have implemented it better. If he had Kerr he might have had a better chance. Derek Fisher understood the offense and had leadership skills but not the ability to teach the Zen. Derek might still be a good coach one day. Kerr found his own voice and walked on to a 55 win team and took it higher. Knicks and warrior are apples and oranges!!! Luke Walton was the natural successor to phil given his upbringing with his dad who embraced alternative mind expanding lifestyle and exposed it to his kids. Thus its not about the triangle or anyother scheme, its getting the players to unite as unit and adjust together.
Phil mandating this as an executive in hindsight was not really achievable unless he had coached the team first and installed this mindset before kicking himself upstairs.

newyorknewyork
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12/13/2017  1:18 PM
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Uptown
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12/13/2017  1:32 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
fishmike wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.

i would add that Butler was the 30th pick in the draft and Gianni's was 15th. Guys that scouted Gianni's raved about his potential but going 8th in a strong draft is going to up the expectations.

+100

Add that Giannis was a 6'11" freak. Which is main reason he has become a huge scorer. Some just dont understand tgis was about the type of player that should be taken at an 8 and not Frank. Its a simple argument. Think its just Old school guys not paying attention to where the NBA is and is heading. GS and Houston have tremendous scorers. And none of them were unable to adapt to a collective defensive unit. This notion that Frank can become a very good scorer but high level offensive players are unable to become sound defenders is short sighted. Some of us think it's easier to teach Steph Curry to be part of a good defensive scheme while others think they can teach Frank to be Steph Curry. Just look at Macbuckets amd Kanter.

Btw. Was at Laker game last night and Frank looked great. If he keeps getting more confident with his jumper and more aggressive on drives, he will become a very good point guard.

I get the notion. But I think you have just sold Frank specifically short. You made a mention of where the NBA is headed. Frank is a player that could potentially guard 3 positions. Frank potentially could play on and off ball offensively and play multiple positions offensively. Frank could potentially play multiple roles for a team and given different assignments through out a game. Flexibility like that is were the NBA he headed. And Frank while he may not have a scorers mentality in the slightest at the moment. He has displayed the skill to score in a variety of ways. He can get buckets in the flow of a game from 3, pull up jumpers, post ups, and hopefully penetration lol. His willingness and ability to pass, His ability and willingness to defend, to go with his over sized frame and arms giving him a physical advantage over most guards defensively. He isn't a 21-22 yr old college junior or senior who developed his game and body over the yrs. He is 19 yrs old who hasn't come close to developing physically. Growing in the hardest position in the NBA.

exactly... if there is an NBA trend its position-less basketball. When Frank is on a big because of a switch its literally fun to watch. He's tough to shoot over and he's even tougher to pass around.

Sorry.. great 2-way players are not easy pickings anywhere. Teams get lucky late sometimes, but that is most certainly NOT a trend. Lets see... a PG who had already shown strong play vs. grown men at 18 years old, 6'5 with a 7'0 wingspan and the last time he played against his peers he was essentially declared the best young guard in EU and Hosfstra says "naa... not with the 8th pick. Not good enough." I mean you just kinda shrug at that. I get that guy's had their ponies and favorites in the race but how people see Frank after 25 games in the NBA and *STILL* dont think he was worth the 8th pick is funny. He looks pretty good to me, but hey, I like triangle guards

Of the 4 guards we were looking at in Smith, Monk, Ntilikina and Mitchell they ALL were worthy of the 8th pick. If you had to rank them based on their first 20ish games Mitchell has looked the best, followed by Frank, then Dennis Smith and Monk has really struggled.

What's also interesting is that Phil Jackson the fossil that he was bring antiquated styles. Was willing to select unique players like KP and Frank who are clear representations of modern bball.

KP was the obvious pick @ 4....If Jahili Okafor had slipped, you better believe phil would have taken Jahlil over KP.

Cartman718
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12/13/2017  1:55 PM
Quote of the game from Hornacek...
“Frank, he has the mentality of a basketball player. That’s why he’s going to be a great player in this league. Again, he doesn’t shy from anything. He likes those challenges. He was ready to go,” Hornacek said. “When we were lining up for the anthem, I looked over at Frank and said, ‘Are you ready to go?’ He said, ‘I’m ready, are you ready, Coach?’ You could tell he was ready.”

Ballaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Love this kid.

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
newyorknewyork
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12/13/2017  1:58 PM
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
fishmike wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.

i would add that Butler was the 30th pick in the draft and Gianni's was 15th. Guys that scouted Gianni's raved about his potential but going 8th in a strong draft is going to up the expectations.

+100

Add that Giannis was a 6'11" freak. Which is main reason he has become a huge scorer. Some just dont understand tgis was about the type of player that should be taken at an 8 and not Frank. Its a simple argument. Think its just Old school guys not paying attention to where the NBA is and is heading. GS and Houston have tremendous scorers. And none of them were unable to adapt to a collective defensive unit. This notion that Frank can become a very good scorer but high level offensive players are unable to become sound defenders is short sighted. Some of us think it's easier to teach Steph Curry to be part of a good defensive scheme while others think they can teach Frank to be Steph Curry. Just look at Macbuckets amd Kanter.

Btw. Was at Laker game last night and Frank looked great. If he keeps getting more confident with his jumper and more aggressive on drives, he will become a very good point guard.

I get the notion. But I think you have just sold Frank specifically short. You made a mention of where the NBA is headed. Frank is a player that could potentially guard 3 positions. Frank potentially could play on and off ball offensively and play multiple positions offensively. Frank could potentially play multiple roles for a team and given different assignments through out a game. Flexibility like that is were the NBA he headed. And Frank while he may not have a scorers mentality in the slightest at the moment. He has displayed the skill to score in a variety of ways. He can get buckets in the flow of a game from 3, pull up jumpers, post ups, and hopefully penetration lol. His willingness and ability to pass, His ability and willingness to defend, to go with his over sized frame and arms giving him a physical advantage over most guards defensively. He isn't a 21-22 yr old college junior or senior who developed his game and body over the yrs. He is 19 yrs old who hasn't come close to developing physically. Growing in the hardest position in the NBA.

exactly... if there is an NBA trend its position-less basketball. When Frank is on a big because of a switch its literally fun to watch. He's tough to shoot over and he's even tougher to pass around.

Sorry.. great 2-way players are not easy pickings anywhere. Teams get lucky late sometimes, but that is most certainly NOT a trend. Lets see... a PG who had already shown strong play vs. grown men at 18 years old, 6'5 with a 7'0 wingspan and the last time he played against his peers he was essentially declared the best young guard in EU and Hosfstra says "naa... not with the 8th pick. Not good enough." I mean you just kinda shrug at that. I get that guy's had their ponies and favorites in the race but how people see Frank after 25 games in the NBA and *STILL* dont think he was worth the 8th pick is funny. He looks pretty good to me, but hey, I like triangle guards

Of the 4 guards we were looking at in Smith, Monk, Ntilikina and Mitchell they ALL were worthy of the 8th pick. If you had to rank them based on their first 20ish games Mitchell has looked the best, followed by Frank, then Dennis Smith and Monk has really struggled.

What's also interesting is that Phil Jackson the fossil that he was bring antiquated styles. Was willing to select unique players like KP and Frank who are clear representations of modern bball.

KP was the obvious pick @ 4....If Jahili Okafor had slipped, you better believe phil would have taken Jahlil over KP.

That's possible. Though in order for Ok4 to slip KP would have had to have been drafted in his stead. I dont see other teams taking Mario or Mudiay over Ok4 and KP. It was also said he felt Ok4 was to slow and limited defensively or something like that. But it's very possible he would have been the pick. And Ok4 while not having KPs potential would fit better in the Tri then he did in Philly. Though Melo and Ok4 at the 3-4 or 4-5 would have been horrible defensively.

Lets not forget KP was booed on draft night. And we don't have to get into the SAS rants. Mudiay or Winslow wouldnt have been booed. Phil also could have traded down and got multiple safer pieces. He could have also traded that pick for a proven veteran. Instead he stuck with a unicorn.

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WaltLongmire
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12/13/2017  2:28 PM
He needs to be consistently confident with his shot...and we are seeing signs of this. The mid-range pull-up off the screen could end up being his go to shot and allow him to "dominate" short periods of time in a game on offense.

Strange, but for a guy who is supposed to be a more conservative "system" player he makes some pretty flashy passes...and you can see that for the most part he is always looking for his teammates...sometimes too much so. But he's made some no-lookers and thread the needle type passes worthy of the highlight reels.

Also needs to learn to go to the basket and take the foul. He seems to be penetrating more, but it is almost always to set up a pass. He's going to learn when to pass and when to look for his own points, but I've seen progress, and that is the most important thing for me right now.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
fishmike
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12/13/2017  2:46 PM
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
fishmike wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like this:

This tweet conflates numbers with aggresiveness. Its not Frank's PPG thats an issue, its Frank passing on many opportunities to score. Most of those players werent PGs either. More important for a PG to get to the rim, in part to make it easier on their teammates.

i would add that Butler was the 30th pick in the draft and Gianni's was 15th. Guys that scouted Gianni's raved about his potential but going 8th in a strong draft is going to up the expectations.

+100

Add that Giannis was a 6'11" freak. Which is main reason he has become a huge scorer. Some just dont understand tgis was about the type of player that should be taken at an 8 and not Frank. Its a simple argument. Think its just Old school guys not paying attention to where the NBA is and is heading. GS and Houston have tremendous scorers. And none of them were unable to adapt to a collective defensive unit. This notion that Frank can become a very good scorer but high level offensive players are unable to become sound defenders is short sighted. Some of us think it's easier to teach Steph Curry to be part of a good defensive scheme while others think they can teach Frank to be Steph Curry. Just look at Macbuckets amd Kanter.

Btw. Was at Laker game last night and Frank looked great. If he keeps getting more confident with his jumper and more aggressive on drives, he will become a very good point guard.

I get the notion. But I think you have just sold Frank specifically short. You made a mention of where the NBA is headed. Frank is a player that could potentially guard 3 positions. Frank potentially could play on and off ball offensively and play multiple positions offensively. Frank could potentially play multiple roles for a team and given different assignments through out a game. Flexibility like that is were the NBA he headed. And Frank while he may not have a scorers mentality in the slightest at the moment. He has displayed the skill to score in a variety of ways. He can get buckets in the flow of a game from 3, pull up jumpers, post ups, and hopefully penetration lol. His willingness and ability to pass, His ability and willingness to defend, to go with his over sized frame and arms giving him a physical advantage over most guards defensively. He isn't a 21-22 yr old college junior or senior who developed his game and body over the yrs. He is 19 yrs old who hasn't come close to developing physically. Growing in the hardest position in the NBA.

exactly... if there is an NBA trend its position-less basketball. When Frank is on a big because of a switch its literally fun to watch. He's tough to shoot over and he's even tougher to pass around.

Sorry.. great 2-way players are not easy pickings anywhere. Teams get lucky late sometimes, but that is most certainly NOT a trend. Lets see... a PG who had already shown strong play vs. grown men at 18 years old, 6'5 with a 7'0 wingspan and the last time he played against his peers he was essentially declared the best young guard in EU and Hosfstra says "naa... not with the 8th pick. Not good enough." I mean you just kinda shrug at that. I get that guy's had their ponies and favorites in the race but how people see Frank after 25 games in the NBA and *STILL* dont think he was worth the 8th pick is funny. He looks pretty good to me, but hey, I like triangle guards

Of the 4 guards we were looking at in Smith, Monk, Ntilikina and Mitchell they ALL were worthy of the 8th pick. If you had to rank them based on their first 20ish games Mitchell has looked the best, followed by Frank, then Dennis Smith and Monk has really struggled.

What's also interesting is that Phil Jackson the fossil that he was bring antiquated styles. Was willing to select unique players like KP and Frank who are clear representations of modern bball.

KP was the obvious pick @ 4....If Jahili Okafor had slipped, you better believe phil would have taken Jahlil over KP.

there is far more evidence that supports the opposite, starting with Gaines conversations and him saying if they had the #1 pick Gainse would push to use it on KP.

Uptown... is there any reason for you to make the comment you just did aside from an anti-Phil agenda? I mean whats the point? Lucky or good we made the pick we made. We know Gainse was incredibly high on KP. We also know the Magic coveted KP from the prior year and were offering the Knicks players to move up.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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12/13/2017  2:48 PM
Cartman718 wrote:Quote of the game from Hornacek...
“Frank, he has the mentality of a basketball player. That’s why he’s going to be a great player in this league. Again, he doesn’t shy from anything. He likes those challenges. He was ready to go,” Hornacek said. “When we were lining up for the anthem, I looked over at Frank and said, ‘Are you ready to go?’ He said, ‘I’m ready, are you ready, Coach?’ You could tell he was ready.”

Ballaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Love this kid.

that is a GREAT quote. I really like Jeff.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Finestrg
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12/13/2017  2:51 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:He needs to be consistently confident with his shot...and we are seeing signs of this. The mid-range pull-up off the screen could end up being his go to shot and allow him to "dominate" short periods of time in a game on offense.

Strange, but for a guy who is supposed to be a more conservative "system" player he makes some pretty flashy passes...and you can see that for the most part he is always looking for his teammates...sometimes too much so. But he's made some no-lookers and thread the needle type passes worthy of the highlight reels.

Also needs to learn to go to the basket and take the foul. He seems to be penetrating more, but it is almost always to set up a pass. He's going to learn when to pass and when to look for his own points, but I've seen progress, and that is the most important thing for me right now.

Well said. The last 3 games specifically, he's looked good. Evident progress. He deserves credit.. In that CHI loss, I thought he looked better than Kris Dunn to be honest..

Having said that, I'd still like to see us go out and get another fast/quick PG, preferably someone offensive-minded. I just think that dimension would do wonders for us--someone to go with Frank, someone who complements him. Love to see us take a chance on someone cheap; a young, talented flier we roll the dice on. Someone who could blossom into something special if given a chance. I keep coming up with the same 4 names -- Cat Barber (who's back in the States now playing for the Greensboro Swarm in the G League), Trey Burke --OR-- we explore a couple of low-risk trades, either with the Pacers for Joe Young or the Rockets for Demetrius Jackson. What if we're basically a .500 team the rest of the way as is? Well that does nothing for us, either with playoff seeding or where we pick in the draft..What if we can introduce a low-risk upgrade at the point to bump us up to a 45+ team, as well as getting a young/talented piece to move forward with? I think that's worth looking into.

fishmike
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12/13/2017  3:04 PM
Finestrg wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:He needs to be consistently confident with his shot...and we are seeing signs of this. The mid-range pull-up off the screen could end up being his go to shot and allow him to "dominate" short periods of time in a game on offense.

Strange, but for a guy who is supposed to be a more conservative "system" player he makes some pretty flashy passes...and you can see that for the most part he is always looking for his teammates...sometimes too much so. But he's made some no-lookers and thread the needle type passes worthy of the highlight reels.

Also needs to learn to go to the basket and take the foul. He seems to be penetrating more, but it is almost always to set up a pass. He's going to learn when to pass and when to look for his own points, but I've seen progress, and that is the most important thing for me right now.

Well said. The last 3 games specifically, he's looked good. Evident progress. He deserves credit.. In that CHI loss, I thought he looked better than Kris Dunn to be honest..

Having said that, I'd still like to see us go out and get another fast/quick PG, preferably someone offensive-minded. I just think that dimension would do wonders for us--someone to go with Frank, someone who complements him. Love to see us take a chance on someone cheap; a young, talented flier we roll the dice on. Someone who could blossom into something special if given a chance. I keep coming up with the same 4 names -- Cat Barber (who's back in the States now playing for the Greensboro Swarm in the G League), Trey Burke --OR-- we explore a couple of low-risk trades, either with the Pacers for Joe Young or the Rockets for Demetrius Jackson. What if we're basically a .500 team the rest of the way as is? Well that does nothing for us, either with playoff seeding or where we pick in the draft..What if we can introduce a low-risk upgrade at the point to bump us up to a 45+ team, as well as getting a young/talented piece to move forward with? I think that's worth looking into.


dude.. you mention Cat Barber and Trey Burke like daily. I get what you are saying but how do you bring them up and integrate them into a team concept? There are some guys you acquire that are worth taking a step back for. Are they?

Being a .500 team most definitely does something for us. It gets us into the playoffs. It means we are competing every night. It means you can evaluate guys like McD and Kanter in a winning situation.

We won what? 32 games last year? Upping the win total by double digits does nothing?

I will say this about your point, and maybe we are on the same page here... if Baker stays healthy than Sessions can go. Waive him in time to catch on with another team and bring up Burke. But Burke is THjr's age. Dude's 25. Its not like this is a blue chip prospect. That being said if anyone has earned their way out of the G league its Burke. He's played great.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Finestrg
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12/13/2017  3:19 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/13/2017  3:20 PM
fishmike wrote:
Finestrg wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:He needs to be consistently confident with his shot...and we are seeing signs of this. The mid-range pull-up off the screen could end up being his go to shot and allow him to "dominate" short periods of time in a game on offense.

Strange, but for a guy who is supposed to be a more conservative "system" player he makes some pretty flashy passes...and you can see that for the most part he is always looking for his teammates...sometimes too much so. But he's made some no-lookers and thread the needle type passes worthy of the highlight reels.

Also needs to learn to go to the basket and take the foul. He seems to be penetrating more, but it is almost always to set up a pass. He's going to learn when to pass and when to look for his own points, but I've seen progress, and that is the most important thing for me right now.

Well said. The last 3 games specifically, he's looked good. Evident progress. He deserves credit.. In that CHI loss, I thought he looked better than Kris Dunn to be honest..

Having said that, I'd still like to see us go out and get another fast/quick PG, preferably someone offensive-minded. I just think that dimension would do wonders for us--someone to go with Frank, someone who complements him. Love to see us take a chance on someone cheap; a young, talented flier we roll the dice on. Someone who could blossom into something special if given a chance. I keep coming up with the same 4 names -- Cat Barber (who's back in the States now playing for the Greensboro Swarm in the G League), Trey Burke --OR-- we explore a couple of low-risk trades, either with the Pacers for Joe Young or the Rockets for Demetrius Jackson. What if we're basically a .500 team the rest of the way as is? Well that does nothing for us, either with playoff seeding or where we pick in the draft..What if we can introduce a low-risk upgrade at the point to bump us up to a 45+ team, as well as getting a young/talented piece to move forward with? I think that's worth looking into.


dude.. you mention Cat Barber and Trey Burke like daily. I get what you are saying but how do you bring them up and integrate them into a team concept? There are some guys you acquire that are worth taking a step back for. Are they?

Being a .500 team most definitely does something for us. It gets us into the playoffs. It means we are competing every night. It means you can evaluate guys like McD and Kanter in a winning situation.

We won what? 32 games last year? Upping the win total by double digits does nothing?

I will say this about your point, and maybe we are on the same page here... if Baker stays healthy than Sessions can go. Waive him in time to catch on with another team and bring up Burke. But Burke is THjr's age. Dude's 25. Its not like this is a blue chip prospect. That being said if anyone has earned their way out of the G league its Burke. He's played great.

Very simple Fish -- we acquire said player and get him acclimated. Frank may be ready to start now--we start Frank, and phase out Jack/Sessions (I don't see any sustainable high level of play and neither guy is part of the future) in favor of a faster/younger option with the speed element that will, I think, only help us. Funny you mention Burke as your fav. among the ones I mentioned. To me, he'd be my 4th choice. Barber's only 23 and has imho the best upside of the 4; then I like Demetrius Jackson next (also 23--quick, agile, strong/tough attack guard--liked him A LOT at ND), followed by Joe Young, then Burke.. Baker's OK, a limited player that plays hard, but how do we know Barber or Jackson wouldn't be an upgrade there? I'd like to give Jeff some options and let him decide. Jackson and Young would require trades but I think we have enough minor assets to acquire either guy without bleeding ourselves.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 37419
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12/13/2017  3:24 PM
WaltLongmire wrote:He needs to be consistently confident with his shot...and we are seeing signs of this. The mid-range pull-up off the screen could end up being his go to shot and allow him to "dominate" short periods of time in a game on offense.

Strange, but for a guy who is supposed to be a more conservative "system" player he makes some pretty flashy passes...and you can see that for the most part he is always looking for his teammates...sometimes too much so. But he's made some no-lookers and thread the needle type passes worthy of the highlight reels.

Also needs to learn to go to the basket and take the foul. He seems to be penetrating more, but it is almost always to set up a pass. He's going to learn when to pass and when to look for his own points, but I've seen progress, and that is the most important thing for me right now.


He always had the flash, but he had to tone it down. You can see over the course of the season in Strausburg. His turnovers gradually increased over the course of the season. This was high pressure basketball on a championship level team. He had to play more controlled.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
BigDaddyG
Posts: 37419
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12/13/2017  3:40 PM
Finestrg wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Finestrg wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:He needs to be consistently confident with his shot...and we are seeing signs of this. The mid-range pull-up off the screen could end up being his go to shot and allow him to "dominate" short periods of time in a game on offense.

Strange, but for a guy who is supposed to be a more conservative "system" player he makes some pretty flashy passes...and you can see that for the most part he is always looking for his teammates...sometimes too much so. But he's made some no-lookers and thread the needle type passes worthy of the highlight reels.

Also needs to learn to go to the basket and take the foul. He seems to be penetrating more, but it is almost always to set up a pass. He's going to learn when to pass and when to look for his own points, but I've seen progress, and that is the most important thing for me right now.

Well said. The last 3 games specifically, he's looked good. Evident progress. He deserves credit.. In that CHI loss, I thought he looked better than Kris Dunn to be honest..

Having said that, I'd still like to see us go out and get another fast/quick PG, preferably someone offensive-minded. I just think that dimension would do wonders for us--someone to go with Frank, someone who complements him. Love to see us take a chance on someone cheap; a young, talented flier we roll the dice on. Someone who could blossom into something special if given a chance. I keep coming up with the same 4 names -- Cat Barber (who's back in the States now playing for the Greensboro Swarm in the G League), Trey Burke --OR-- we explore a couple of low-risk trades, either with the Pacers for Joe Young or the Rockets for Demetrius Jackson. What if we're basically a .500 team the rest of the way as is? Well that does nothing for us, either with playoff seeding or where we pick in the draft..What if we can introduce a low-risk upgrade at the point to bump us up to a 45+ team, as well as getting a young/talented piece to move forward with? I think that's worth looking into.


dude.. you mention Cat Barber and Trey Burke like daily. I get what you are saying but how do you bring them up and integrate them into a team concept? There are some guys you acquire that are worth taking a step back for. Are they?

Being a .500 team most definitely does something for us. It gets us into the playoffs. It means we are competing every night. It means you can evaluate guys like McD and Kanter in a winning situation.

We won what? 32 games last year? Upping the win total by double digits does nothing?

I will say this about your point, and maybe we are on the same page here... if Baker stays healthy than Sessions can go. Waive him in time to catch on with another team and bring up Burke. But Burke is THjr's age. Dude's 25. Its not like this is a blue chip prospect. That being said if anyone has earned their way out of the G league its Burke. He's played great.

Very simple Fish -- we acquire said player and get him acclimated. Frank may be ready to start now--we start Frank, and phase out Jack/Sessions (I don't see any sustainable high level of play and neither guy is part of the future) in favor of a faster/younger option with the speed element that will, I think, only help us. Funny you mention Burke as your fav. among the ones I mentioned. To me, he'd be my 4th choice. Barber's only 23 and has imho the best upside of the 4; then I like Demetrius Jackson next (also 23--quick, agile, strong/tough attack guard--liked him A LOT at ND), followed by Joe Young, then Burke.. Baker's OK, a limited player that plays hard, but how do we know Barber or Jackson wouldn't be an upgrade there? I'd like to give Jeff some options and let him decide. Jackson and Young would require trades but I think we have enough minor assets to acquire either guy without bleeding ourselves.


I could see waiving Sessions, but Jack has proven to be too valuable. I'm not keen on waiving a contributor to bring in, what is essentially, a scratch off lottery ticket. The chances of any of the guys turning into Lin are low. I'd rather continue with Frank's development and sort the roster put after the season. We have other roster problems to address like the glut of 5s, lack of viable long term options at the three etc. We already have a prospect at the 1, so I don't see an immediate need to address the situation. Who knows, an injury might come along and we'll need to call one of your guys up?
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
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12/13/2017  4:02 PM
fishmike wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Quote of the game from Hornacek...
“Frank, he has the mentality of a basketball player. That’s why he’s going to be a great player in this league. Again, he doesn’t shy from anything. He likes those challenges. He was ready to go,” Hornacek said. “When we were lining up for the anthem, I looked over at Frank and said, ‘Are you ready to go?’ He said, ‘I’m ready, are you ready, Coach?’ You could tell he was ready.”

Ballaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Love this kid.

that is a GREAT quote. I really like Jeff.

Gotta be the quote of the year! Go Frank!

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
knicks1248
Posts: 42059
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12/13/2017  4:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/13/2017  4:36 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Cartman718 wrote:Quote of the game from Hornacek...
“Frank, he has the mentality of a basketball player. That’s why he’s going to be a great player in this league. Again, he doesn’t shy from anything. He likes those challenges. He was ready to go,” Hornacek said. “When we were lining up for the anthem, I looked over at Frank and said, ‘Are you ready to go?’ He said, ‘I’m ready, are you ready, Coach?’ You could tell he was ready.”

Ballaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Love this kid.

that is a GREAT quote. I really like Jeff.

Gotta be the quote of the year! Go Frank!

YEAH, JEFF IS LOOKING LIKE a real coach this yr. I still think we need a change a pace (with more speed) pg who can get in the paint at will...but, I'm starting to see frank getting further into the paint, that's a really good thing.

ES
anrst
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USA
12/13/2017  4:58 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/13/2017  4:59 PM
my evaluation is that this kid is fun to watch. i've never seen a rookie pg do so many different things on D to win games.

on offense he has shown he can go wherever he wants whenever he wants.

his vision is elite.

his ballhandling will get better.

imagine when frank is 23, 24, 25 ... and all the all stars of today are old and retired and he's goin up against his peers and younger kids only.

Welpee
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12/13/2017  6:13 PM
anrst wrote:my evaluation is that this kid is fun to watch. i've never seen a rookie pg do so many different things on D to win games.

on offense he has shown he can go wherever he wants whenever he wants.

his vision is elite.

his ballhandling will get better.

imagine when frank is 23, 24, 25 ... and all the all stars of today are old and retired and he's goin up against his peers and younger kids only.

I still think Frank has a ways to go getting to the hoop and finishing effectively. He also appears to have some work to do on his handle. However...I like what I see so far. I like what Jack is giving us too which allows us to not put too much pressure on Frank versus just tossing him out there and let him sink or swim.

Frank may not be the top rookie point guard this season, but I could see him being either #1 or #2 from this class when its all said and done.

WaltLongmire
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12/13/2017  7:36 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Finestrg wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Finestrg wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:He needs to be consistently confident with his shot...and we are seeing signs of this. The mid-range pull-up off the screen could end up being his go to shot and allow him to "dominate" short periods of time in a game on offense.

Strange, but for a guy who is supposed to be a more conservative "system" player he makes some pretty flashy passes...and you can see that for the most part he is always looking for his teammates...sometimes too much so. But he's made some no-lookers and thread the needle type passes worthy of the highlight reels.

Also needs to learn to go to the basket and take the foul. He seems to be penetrating more, but it is almost always to set up a pass. He's going to learn when to pass and when to look for his own points, but I've seen progress, and that is the most important thing for me right now.

Well said. The last 3 games specifically, he's looked good. Evident progress. He deserves credit.. In that CHI loss, I thought he looked better than Kris Dunn to be honest..

Having said that, I'd still like to see us go out and get another fast/quick PG, preferably someone offensive-minded. I just think that dimension would do wonders for us--someone to go with Frank, someone who complements him. Love to see us take a chance on someone cheap; a young, talented flier we roll the dice on. Someone who could blossom into something special if given a chance. I keep coming up with the same 4 names -- Cat Barber (who's back in the States now playing for the Greensboro Swarm in the G League), Trey Burke --OR-- we explore a couple of low-risk trades, either with the Pacers for Joe Young or the Rockets for Demetrius Jackson. What if we're basically a .500 team the rest of the way as is? Well that does nothing for us, either with playoff seeding or where we pick in the draft..What if we can introduce a low-risk upgrade at the point to bump us up to a 45+ team, as well as getting a young/talented piece to move forward with? I think that's worth looking into.


dude.. you mention Cat Barber and Trey Burke like daily. I get what you are saying but how do you bring them up and integrate them into a team concept? There are some guys you acquire that are worth taking a step back for. Are they?

Being a .500 team most definitely does something for us. It gets us into the playoffs. It means we are competing every night. It means you can evaluate guys like McD and Kanter in a winning situation.

We won what? 32 games last year? Upping the win total by double digits does nothing?

I will say this about your point, and maybe we are on the same page here... if Baker stays healthy than Sessions can go. Waive him in time to catch on with another team and bring up Burke. But Burke is THjr's age. Dude's 25. Its not like this is a blue chip prospect. That being said if anyone has earned their way out of the G league its Burke. He's played great.

Very simple Fish -- we acquire said player and get him acclimated. Frank may be ready to start now--we start Frank, and phase out Jack/Sessions (I don't see any sustainable high level of play and neither guy is part of the future) in favor of a faster/younger option with the speed element that will, I think, only help us. Funny you mention Burke as your fav. among the ones I mentioned. To me, he'd be my 4th choice. Barber's only 23 and has imho the best upside of the 4; then I like Demetrius Jackson next (also 23--quick, agile, strong/tough attack guard--liked him A LOT at ND), followed by Joe Young, then Burke.. Baker's OK, a limited player that plays hard, but how do we know Barber or Jackson wouldn't be an upgrade there? I'd like to give Jeff some options and let him decide. Jackson and Young would require trades but I think we have enough minor assets to acquire either guy without bleeding ourselves.


I could see waiving Sessions, but Jack has proven to be too valuable. I'm not keen on waiving a contributor to bring in, what is essentially, a scratch off lottery ticket. The chances of any of the guys turning into Lin are low. I'd rather continue with Frank's development and sort the roster put after the season. We have other roster problems to address like the glut of 5s, lack of viable long term options at the three etc. We already have a prospect at the 1, so I don't see an immediate need to address the situation. Who knows, an injury might come along and we'll need to call one of your guys up?

Yeah...they're not sending Jack anywhere at this point. Eventually you give Frank the starter's minutes, but Jack is good to have around and he's earned the extra minutes.

Our G League team has been very good...and Burke is the leading scorer. I tend to think that Perry would give him the first shot they really needed to add another PG, and Sessions would be the odd man out.

Baker can also play SG, and you know he can give you hard-nose NBA D.

EnySpree: Can we agree to agree not to mention Phil Jackson and triangle for the rest of our lives?
newyorknewyork
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Member: #541
12/13/2017  9:39 PM
Welpee wrote:
anrst wrote:my evaluation is that this kid is fun to watch. i've never seen a rookie pg do so many different things on D to win games.

on offense he has shown he can go wherever he wants whenever he wants.

his vision is elite.

his ballhandling will get better.

imagine when frank is 23, 24, 25 ... and all the all stars of today are old and retired and he's goin up against his peers and younger kids only.

I still think Frank has a ways to go getting to the hoop and finishing effectively. He also appears to have some work to do on his handle. However...I like what I see so far. I like what Jack is giving us too which allows us to not put too much pressure on Frank versus just tossing him out there and let him sink or swim.

Frank may not be the top rookie point guard this season, but I could see him being either #1 or #2 from this class when its all said and done.

Dougie seems to have finishing moves for days around the rim. Frank should work with him some.

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