newyorknewyork wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Winning is never a bad thing. We have a good core of players. Regardless of where we pick, there will be a good player available. We need to draft well and develop what we have. Expect ups and downs.

We don't have a good young core, we have a suspect young core. DOTSON, FRANK, WILLY, BAKER, do any of these guy look like they can start on a good team, or even a bad team. These guys look like they will develop into maybe a decent bench player, if that.

When we drafted Wilson, nate, lee, danilo, ariza, those guys look nothing like the kids we have now.

how can you write this with a straight face and have anyone else want to read your stuff?

KP? Others on team?

you are quick to respond but you don't really elaborate, you seem to disagree with someone, and just move on. Im basically saying that I'm not sure any of those players are going to be in a Knick uniform in 2 to 3 yrs, maybe not even next season. It's all about progression, and when you don't see enough of it you tend to give up, like we did on much of our own draft picks in recent yrs.

I mean do you see significant improvement in baker and willy from last season? If you did, there wouldn't be a tank thread.

You took this whole thing into a completely different direction. Not all 15 of our players are going to be the same each year. Some guys will work out and some won't. Why are you focusing on Willy and Baker? Our core is KP, Frank, Hardaway, and Kanter. Everyone else is a question mark. This is how works with any team.

Enes Kanter and THJr are good enough to be cornerstones of a franchise now? How quickly we forget how expendable they've been throughout their career. Their relevancy has more to do with Kristaps promise/star-power than anything they do on the court. Without KP, both those guys are expensive bench players.

While you may be right, the team has to have some type of stability. We could then look to build up assets around that. We most likely will be getting another lotto pick this yr. We can possibly package Lee & filler (like Thomas & Baker) and a future pick or 2(depending on the player) for a stud. Then we would be adding 2 possible impact players. If we could reclaim those picks off of a KOQ &/or Willy &/or 2nd round picks we have this yr. With Dotson we could have 7 deep of quality players. Stabilize success for the 4 yrs that Kanter would be resigned for. Look to build up assets over those 4 yrs to make championship runs when KP enters his prime.

The thing is we can't build up assets, which is exactly why having them around is a bad idea. They are too expensive to add players of any consequence, too talented to justify playing projects/youth ahead of them and too good to get a high lottery pick. We are slowly becoming the abject failure that the Pelicans are but on steriods: a capped-out squad with a slew of pricey, injury-prone, one-dimensional veterans (particularly at the big man spots) built around a brittle franchise big. How successful have they been following that formula?

And to think, had they been just a bit more patient and kept their picks, they could have drafted Giannis Antetokounmpo to pair with Anthony Davis. Now imagine how much more appealing that would have been moving forward than what they have now?

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Should add, that while tanking hasn't been really part of the team's culture. Tanking at this time would be part of the Knicks culture of being short sighted.

Hornacek is doing a good job considering we might have the worst starting PG in the league. Not to say Jack isnt giving it his all, and contributing. Not starter material at this stage in his career. Also injuires to key starters.

There isnt the drama there was last season. Hornacek has done a good job with morale, and emphasizing defense. Brought some problems on himself last season, but I believe Hornacek deserves a chance to take the team as far as they can, before calling it a season. Its in the team's best interest to settle on a coach for the next few years. Hornacek looks like he is up to the job now.

I think that Hornacek is a creative enough coach to generate wins but how good is he (and his staff) in developing young talent? After all, there doesn't seem to be much of a track record in doing so with the Suns, who acquired most of their young players from other programs as close to finished products. So when I see Jeff burying guys like Willy Hernangomez, Damyean Dotson and Frank (to a lesser extent) behind veterans, I even question his desire in wanting to develop our youth, which is the only route to build an efficient and sustainable winner for the foreseeable future.

Because Kanter's not going to be a starter on a title contender; neither is THJr, Jarrett Jack/Ramon Sessions, etc. And yet, they (aside from Jack/Sessions) are being paid that way.

Hornacek wasnt in Phoenix long enough to develop players. Was also caught between mgmt and players.
Willy barely plays a lick of D. Hornacek emphasized defense before the season started.

Jeff got on Kanter hard about his D early on. Giving him the quick hook, and he's responded. Thought Jeff has been doing a good job with Frank as well. You dont see him barking at Ntilikina for every turnover, mistake. Knows that this all quite a jolt for him.

Team has dealt with a good deal of injuries already. Our starting PG would be a 3rd stringer on a contender, and we're still hovering around .500. The team is buying in. I believe Hornacek is doing a very good job, considering.

Changing the culture means earning your minutes. These aren't all broken down vets ahead of the young guys. Players in their prime, and most playing well in their roles.

The fact that Hornancek wasn't in Phoenix long, only helps to make my point: we don't know if he can develop talent because he doesn't have a track record for doing so. And in my opinion, our coach's ability to develop talent should be how he's judged unless you believe that guys like Kanter and THJr are our tickets to perennial contention alongside KP. I don't think they are, and worse still, I think they will only handicap our search for players that can turn us into contenders. If we're not careful, we can turn ourselves into the Pelicans or the Kevin Garnett Wolves.

As for Kanter vs Willy, I think it's unfair to compare a player currently in his 8th year to one in 2nd year; especially on defense. After all, Kanter was the 3rd overall pick in his draft and got traded in his 4th year as a contract dump due to how poor his defensive play was. Willy, on the other hand, has shown flashes and we should do our due deligience in figuring out what he is and can still grow to be. At $1 million per year, the opportunity cost is next to nil for doing so. You can't say the same for Kanter at $20 million per, taking into account how valuable cap space has now become in the league. That's several draft picks worth of assets we could get with that money.

We're very deep up front. Willy has to his earn minutes. Doesnt matter what Kanter earns. Thats how you change the culture. I believe Willy understands that now. Defense matters again. My point about Kanter was that he responded to being challenged by Hornacek about his defense. Willy has yet to do that sufficiently.

When he does, I'll bet he will start getting meaningful minutes. Otherwise, Noah is going to beat him out for PT. Willy left last season promising he would work on D over the summer, came back looking even worse. No way he should get rewarded for it.

Paris907 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

TheGame wrote:The team should definitely trade either Kanter or OQuinn, which ever one they do not plan to resign. Both could net us a draft pick.

Can't trade Kanter at this point. He looks like part of the future. There is no better fit next to Porzingis right now. They are a match made in heaven. We need to continue to build up, not tear down what is working for the sake of more picks. O'Quinn should be moved though.

“A match made in Heaven”. I don’t think so. Put Embiid or Boogie in EKs Place. Or the Jazz Center.
Look I like grit and a fighter too but unless he can D up and pose a greater threat on office, I say save $25Mill and let him walk. I’m good with Ayers/Bamba/or Begley for Rookie wages!

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Nalod wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:With Tim out for atleast 2 more weeks. KP nursing a bum ankle and maybe not 100 percent for a while, even if he plays, these next 6 to 8 games will decide our season, in my opinion. If we stay at around .500 I think we can probably make a fight for the playoffs and depending on where things are in April, maybe even make it. On the other side if we lose quite a few now, I don't see a recovery later on and I don't even want one.

I'm a little torn because I feel on one side this team has a core of young players that can win games and be good in Kanter/Porzingis/Tim/Frank. This is a nice group to have, with Willy as well. But they won't win a championship and need more talent. Imagine having Michael Porter, Doncic or Kevin Knox with that group?

What's best right now? Sink or swim in the standings?

I would not play KP with a bad ankle.

Also there is 0 evidence that Frank is our future star PG. Hes 2 years away from being 2 years away. Im not sure what the Knicks have. We need different players that take workload off KP. KP will keep getting hurt if he is forced to be THE guy. No more skinny foreign guys drafted.

Shut it down dude. Your freaking out.

At draft time Briggs was sure Frank was the right guy at 8.
Now when he starts to play well Briggs will say he loved him and always wanted him.
This is just how it works.

Frank has shown me enough to be able to determine he will be part of a core. He defends. He moves the ball. He can shoot from outside (will get better). He may not be a star, but I never had that expectation of him. I took Phil's evaluation at heart. He'll give us that defender, high IQ and leader we need.

To be fair I wanted JOhn Collins but I knew we had zero chance of taking him. But out of Smith MItchell and Frank--I picked Frank. Im not down on Frank but its blunt obvious that he is going to need game and physical development. I dont see why some people dont want to see him given an extended role with the D league team. He looks like a little boy out there in mans league.

Maybe that has something to do with his being 19?!? Just sayin...

Bring back patient BRIGGS. What have you done with him?

Paris907 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

TheGame wrote:The team should definitely trade either Kanter or OQuinn, which ever one they do not plan to resign. Both could net us a draft pick.

Can't trade Kanter at this point. He looks like part of the future. There is no better fit next to Porzingis right now. They are a match made in heaven. We need to continue to build up, not tear down what is working for the sake of more picks. O'Quinn should be moved though.

“A match made in Heaven”. I don’t think so. Put Embiid or Boogie in EKs Place. Or the Jazz Center.
Look I like grit and a fighter too but unless he can D up and pose a greater threat on office, I say save $25Mill and let him walk. I’m good with Ayers/Bamba/or Begley for Rookie wages!

We are talking about attainable players. You are never getting the guys you mentioned above. Kanter is a high level role player who gets the job done as well as any other reasonably attainable player. Just rattling off all the star bigs you can think of is not the point.

Nalod wrote:Giannis and Davis are not living up to expectations. One is hurt and one is not playing bad, just the team does not gel.
KP was not the stat guy last nite but we won the game. 11-5 at home is great. 1-7 is concerning.
Playing thru the yoot is not tanking, its rebuilding. Melo is not here to roll his eyes and demand of young players in a way that's not healthy.
Its not that Melo was bad, in fact he was good teammate but the natural forces of him as an alpha player enroute to HOF with top 25 in scoring history, a slew of gold Olympic bling and NCAA chip does earn respect on and off the court. Its just 20 or more shots that need to get to others and have them develop.
Not Melo bashing, its just why you move older players to let the saplings get sunlight and grow.

maan the only reason melo isn't here is because phil and the stupid ass triangle which all of the knicks current staff and players are breathing a sigh of relief.

In his past five games, he is averaging 16.4 points per game on 58 percent shooting, including 54 percent from beyond the arc. Last week, Lee had a simple explanation for his recent offensive surge.

"We're not running the triangle," Lee said. "We're running a different offense that's more fast-paced, and it's more suitable for my style of play."

That's all everybody wanted, to play in a system that they feel comfortable in, to coach a system they are familiar with. when that's not there, the drama begins, certain players rebel, and coaches look foolish and incompetent. Frank doesn't even cut to the basket without the ball, and can't shoot all that well, so chances are, he would be struggling even more if the triangle exist

He really should be playing garbage minutes until he is more comfortable

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I have zero faith in the knicks in developing frank properly, their isn't an once of proof that we can use to show the knicks are capable of developing anyone. We are winning games now on ball movement and better defense, but every game, frank looks worse and worse. Against the Griz, he was the only player with a minus.

He really should be playing garbage minutes until he is more comfortable

Even KP??? Was he not "developed"? Has he not gotten better every season despite the turmoil?
Do you not see a change of culture? Is this why you want Bledsoe, as "Only proven players should be here?"
How does him sitting get him ready to play?
Do you only buy stocks after they go up? Are you incarcerated?

where was Kp over the summer, far as hell away from the knicks and came back so much better than the summer before where he took baby steps

THJ, got so much better under the Hawks, (not the knicks), in fact, he got worse his 2nd yr with the knicks to the point when he got traded, the hawks sent him to the d league.

you have someone else you want to name that the knicks developed in the last 10 yrs. They develop Galloway so well that they let him walk for nothing, they just gave up on him. Cmon dude how can you debate this..

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I have zero faith in the knicks in developing frank properly, their isn't an once of proof that we can use to show the knicks are capable of developing anyone. We are winning games now on ball movement and better defense, but every game, frank looks worse and worse. Against the Griz, he was the only player with a minus.

He really should be playing garbage minutes until he is more comfortable

Even KP??? Was he not "developed"? Has he not gotten better every season despite the turmoil?
Do you not see a change of culture? Is this why you want Bledsoe, as "Only proven players should be here?"
How does him sitting get him ready to play?
Do you only buy stocks after they go up? Are you incarcerated?

where was Kp over the summer, far as hell away from the knicks and came back so much better than the summer before where he took baby steps

THJ, got so much better under the Hawks, (not the knicks), in fact, he got worse his 2nd yr with the knicks to the point when he got traded, the hawks sent him to the d league.

you have someone else you want to name that the knicks developed in the last 10 yrs. They develop Galloway so well that they let him walk for nothing, they just gave up on him. Cmon dude how can you debate this..

Not a debate. Discussion. But.......can you say all players on other teams developed under the roof over every summer? Player has to put in the work.
ANd its not always an off season thing is it?
Timmy got worse and exiled as a triangle reject. The fact he was drafted by us, and here he is a finished product is a good thing. We have had so many changes no player can then be really given the label "developed". I can see that.
But Is Frank playing and coached under the same directive as the past. of course not. So while I can't give you any shred of evidence, you cannot with any valid thought say it won't happen. You need proof. That's your call, but how does it happen if he sits.

Do you not see any change here?

Frank is a rookie and I realize he's going to have his ups & downs, but we all know he was picked by phil to play in the triangle, and from the looks of it, he is just like the rest of phils triangle pg's that don't really penetrate..fisher, Kerr, bj, paxson, farmer, ect.

Nothing less the 250 jumpers per day in practice, if your not going to penetrate, then you best be a hell of shooter..

knicks1248 wrote:
where was Kp over the summer, far as hell away from the knicks and came back so much better than the summer before where he took baby steps
THJ, got so much better under the Hawks, (not the knicks), in fact, he got worse his 2nd yr with the knicks to the point when he got traded, the hawks sent him to the d league.

you have someone else you want to name that the knicks developed in the last 10 yrs. They develop Galloway so well that they let him walk for nothing, they just gave up on him. Cmon dude how can you debate this..