knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Winning is never a bad thing. We have a good core of players. Regardless of where we pick, there will be a good player available. We need to draft well and develop what we have. Expect ups and downs.

We don't have a good young core, we have a suspect young core. DOTSON, FRANK, WILLY, BAKER, do any of these guy look like they can start on a good team, or even a bad team. These guys look like they will develop into maybe a decent bench player, if that.

When we drafted Wilson, nate, lee, danilo, ariza, those guys look nothing like the kids we have now.

how can you write this with a straight face and have anyone else want to read your stuff?

KP? Others on team?

Hornacek is doing a good job considering we might have the worst starting PG in the league. Not to say Jack isnt giving it his all, and contributing. Not starter material at this stage in his career. Also injuires to key starters.

There isnt the drama there was last season. Hornacek has done a good job with morale, and emphasizing defense. Brought some problems on himself last season, but I believe Hornacek deserves a chance to take the team as far as they can, before calling it a season. Its in the team's best interest to settle on a coach for the next few years. Hornacek looks like he is up to the job now.

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Winning is never a bad thing. We have a good core of players. Regardless of where we pick, there will be a good player available. We need to draft well and develop what we have. Expect ups and downs.

We don't have a good young core, we have a suspect young core. DOTSON, FRANK, WILLY, BAKER, do any of these guy look like they can start on a good team, or even a bad team. These guys look like they will develop into maybe a decent bench player, if that.

When we drafted Wilson, nate, lee, danilo, ariza, those guys look nothing like the kids we have now.

how can you write this with a straight face and have anyone else want to read your stuff?

KP? Others on team?

you are quick to respond but you don't really elaborate, you seem to disagree with someone, and just move on. Im basically saying that I'm not sure any of those players are going to be in a Knick uniform in 2 to 3 yrs, maybe not even next season. It's all about progression, and when you don't see enough of it you tend to give up, like we did on much of our own draft picks in recent yrs.

I mean do you see significant improvement in baker and willy from last season? If you did, there wouldn't be a tank thread.

You took this whole thing into a completely different direction. Not all 15 of our players are going to be the same each year. Some guys will work out and some won't. Why are you focusing on Willy and Baker? Our core is KP, Frank, Hardaway, and Kanter. Everyone else is a question mark. This is how works with any team.

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Winning is never a bad thing. We have a good core of players. Regardless of where we pick, there will be a good player available. We need to draft well and develop what we have. Expect ups and downs.

We don't have a good young core, we have a suspect young core. DOTSON, FRANK, WILLY, BAKER, do any of these guy look like they can start on a good team, or even a bad team. These guys look like they will develop into maybe a decent bench player, if that.

When we drafted Wilson, nate, lee, danilo, ariza, those guys look nothing like the kids we have now.

how can you write this with a straight face and have anyone else want to read your stuff?

KP? Others on team?

you are quick to respond but you don't really elaborate, you seem to disagree with someone, and just move on. Im basically saying that I'm not sure any of those players are going to be in a Knick uniform in 2 to 3 yrs, maybe not even next season. It's all about progression, and when you don't see enough of it you tend to give up, like we did on much of our own draft picks in recent yrs.

I mean do you see significant improvement in baker and willy from last season? If you did, there wouldn't be a tank thread.

Have you seen significant improvement in Baker or Willy from last season? After you answer that then tell how you could see if they've improved or not with the very minimal amount of game time they've had so far this year? These kids need actual game time to get better cause they're not gonna do that just from practice.

Dotson will naturally get mins with Hardaway out. Frank already getting 20mins a night. Willy may find mins as well with KP out. Try to win every game but will be outgunned most nights.

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Winning is never a bad thing. We have a good core of players. Regardless of where we pick, there will be a good player available. We need to draft well and develop what we have. Expect ups and downs.

We don't have a good young core, we have a suspect young core. DOTSON, FRANK, WILLY, BAKER, do any of these guy look like they can start on a good team, or even a bad team. These guys look like they will develop into maybe a decent bench player, if that.

When we drafted Wilson, nate, lee, danilo, ariza, those guys look nothing like the kids we have now.

Those players you mentioned other than Frank aren't core players. KP, Frank, Hardaway, and maybe Kanter are the core. The rest are just young prospects who are unknowns. Every team in the league has unknowns. I'm talking about the core players, meaning the players we are building around. I am not sure why you think anyone is judging Baker, Willy, Dotson as starting players.

I would have traded fro Bledsoe, all though I wouldn't have included frank, but willy and a 1st pick absolutely..

So it stunts Franks growth, gives us one less pick, Bledsoe is a NOW player, 28 in his prime. His effect on knicks? I don't know.
His contract two years? Would he give us much more than Timmy?
DId SUns even want Willy? What is Willy's real value? Do other teams value him?
Bledsoe has a bit of a health history. if he goes down, and our record drops and we end up giving away a lottery pick then we shot ourselves in the foot.
I've seen that movie before.

Its better to make a move like that after this yrs draft. Let this season play out. Probably finish in the lottery. Secure one more big time talent lotto pick to add to the core. Then make moves for the Bledsoe types.

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Keep KP and Hardaway out until they are 100%. The start of the season was fun with how competitive we were. But this is a rebuilding team who can't afford these type of losses as most teams wouldn't.

Lucky we have our draft pick. Dotson will see hefty mins and hopefully shows improvement.

Agree--do NOT play injured KP.

Give Dotson Baker and Willy much bigger roles. Look to trade vets Kanter Lee and Oquinn.

I agree Briggs. Spending 20-25 in Kanter makes zero sense. Dotson and Baker and even Frank. I too am skeptical RE Rook

GustavBahler wrote:Should add, that while tanking hasn't been really part of the team's culture. Tanking at this time would be part of the Knicks culture of being short sighted.

Hornacek is doing a good job considering we might have the worst starting PG in the league. Not to say Jack isnt giving it his all, and contributing. Not starter material at this stage in his career. Also injuires to key starters.

There isnt the drama there was last season. Hornacek has done a good job with morale, and emphasizing defense. Brought some problems on himself last season, but I believe Hornacek deserves a chance to take the team as far as they can, before calling it a season. Its in the team's best interest to settle on a coach for the next few years. Hornacek looks like he is up to the job now.

I think that Hornacek is a creative enough coach to generate wins but how good is he (and his staff) in developing young talent? After all, there doesn't seem to be much of a track record in doing so with the Suns, who acquired most of their young players from other programs as close to finished products. So when I see Jeff burying guys like Willy Hernangomez, Damyean Dotson and Frank (to a lesser extent) behind veterans, I even question his desire in wanting to develop our youth, which is the only route to build an efficient and sustainable winner for the foreseeable future.

Because Kanter's not going to be a starter on a title contender; neither is THJr, Jarrett Jack/Ramon Sessions, etc. And yet, they (aside from Jack/Sessions) are being paid that way.

meloshouldgo wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Holy crap. Frankie's now 4 years away? Who knew? BRIGGS, you are great!
Phil's parting gift has got to be better than that.
Right, let's shut it down, put KP on ice for a year, let him make movies and commercials, let little Willy play all by his lonesome, etc, etc, etc.

Can't we just play each and every one of the games and try to win? Is that asking so much every year?

Everyone is obsessed with tanking. It is just the way things are now. More lottery balls will always be better than winning games in the long run to a large percentage of people.

Tanking for the sake of tanking is destructive. Losing games because you're focusing on developing youth, is constructive. The latter is what the Knicks should aspire towards since it refines our core and produces a high enough pick to continue to expand that core.

So you don't tank to tank (who does this?), you just aspire to lose games on purpose so your core gets refined and you get draft picks. Got it.
You are talking in semantic circles.

Einstein - he said losing games as a consequence of focusing on the youth. No one said anything about losing games on purpose. Semantic circles?? Should we switch tho solecistic spirals instead?

Finally! Someone gets me! Lol.

Knixkik wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:Winning is never a bad thing. We have a good core of players. Regardless of where we pick, there will be a good player available. We need to draft well and develop what we have. Expect ups and downs.

We don't have a good young core, we have a suspect young core. DOTSON, FRANK, WILLY, BAKER, do any of these guy look like they can start on a good team, or even a bad team. These guys look like they will develop into maybe a decent bench player, if that.

When we drafted Wilson, nate, lee, danilo, ariza, those guys look nothing like the kids we have now.

how can you write this with a straight face and have anyone else want to read your stuff?

KP? Others on team?

you are quick to respond but you don't really elaborate, you seem to disagree with someone, and just move on. Im basically saying that I'm not sure any of those players are going to be in a Knick uniform in 2 to 3 yrs, maybe not even next season. It's all about progression, and when you don't see enough of it you tend to give up, like we did on much of our own draft picks in recent yrs.

I mean do you see significant improvement in baker and willy from last season? If you did, there wouldn't be a tank thread.

You took this whole thing into a completely different direction. Not all 15 of our players are going to be the same each year. Some guys will work out and some won't. Why are you focusing on Willy and Baker? Our core is KP, Frank, Hardaway, and Kanter. Everyone else is a question mark. This is how works with any team.

Enes Kanter and THJr are good enough to be cornerstones of a franchise now? How quickly we forget how expendable they've been throughout their career. Their relevancy has more to do with Kristaps promise/star-power than anything they do on the court. Without KP, both those guys are expensive bench players.

GustavBahler wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Should add, that while tanking hasn't been really part of the team's culture. Tanking at this time would be part of the Knicks culture of being short sighted.

Hornacek is doing a good job considering we might have the worst starting PG in the league. Not to say Jack isnt giving it his all, and contributing. Not starter material at this stage in his career. Also injuires to key starters.

There isnt the drama there was last season. Hornacek has done a good job with morale, and emphasizing defense. Brought some problems on himself last season, but I believe Hornacek deserves a chance to take the team as far as they can, before calling it a season. Its in the team's best interest to settle on a coach for the next few years. Hornacek looks like he is up to the job now.

I think that Hornacek is a creative enough coach to generate wins but how good is he (and his staff) in developing young talent? After all, there doesn't seem to be much of a track record in doing so with the Suns, who acquired most of their young players from other programs as close to finished products. So when I see Jeff burying guys like Willy Hernangomez, Damyean Dotson and Frank (to a lesser extent) behind veterans, I even question his desire in wanting to develop our youth, which is the only route to build an efficient and sustainable winner for the foreseeable future.

Because Kanter's not going to be a starter on a title contender; neither is THJr, Jarrett Jack/Ramon Sessions, etc. And yet, they (aside from Jack/Sessions) are being paid that way.

Hornacek wasnt in Phoenix long enough to develop players. Was also caught between mgmt and players.
Willy barely plays a lick of D. Hornacek emphasized defense before the season started.

Jeff got on Kanter hard about his D early on. Giving him the quick hook, and he's responded. Thought Jeff has been doing a good job with Frank as well. You dont see him barking at Ntilikina for every turnover, mistake. Knows that this all quite a jolt for him.

Team has dealt with a good deal of injuries already. Our starting PG would be a 3rd stringer on a contender, and we're still hovering around .500. The team is buying in. I believe Hornacek is doing a very good job, considering.

Changing the culture means earning your minutes. These aren't all broken down vets ahead of the young guys. Players in their prime, and most playing well in their roles.

The fact that Hornancek wasn't in Phoenix long, only helps to make my point: we don't know if he can develop talent because he doesn't have a track record for doing so. And in my opinion, our coach's ability to develop talent should be how he's judged unless you believe that guys like Kanter and THJr are our tickets to perennial contention alongside KP. I don't think they are, and worse still, I think they will only handicap our search for players that can turn us into contenders. If we're not careful, we can turn ourselves into the Pelicans or the Kevin Garnett Wolves.

As for Kanter vs Willy, I think it's unfair to compare a player currently in his 8th year to one in 2nd year; especially on defense. After all, Kanter was the 3rd overall pick in his draft and got traded in his 4th year as a contract dump due to how poor his defensive play was. Willy, on the other hand, has shown flashes and we should do our due deligience in figuring out what he is and can still grow to be. At $1 million per year, the opportunity cost is next to nil for doing so. You can't say the same for Kanter at $20 million per, taking into account how valuable cap space has now become in the league. That's several draft picks worth of assets we could get with that money.