Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season

Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?

I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.

The data doesnt *exactly* show that KOQ is superior. IT doesnt quite work like that. KOQ is averaging 17 minutes a game. Of those what % would you say are vs. the other team's bench? While Kanter gets to bang again Dwight, KOQ gets Cody Zeller. In recent years that was Kanter playing behind Adams and Gobert where Kanter put up some of the most gaudy +/- and advanced stats in recent years.

Despite what Triplethreat says its becoming very apparent that we should start looking at "fit" as well as pure basketball production, skills, history, etc...

What happens when KP and Kanter are on floor together? Well one thing is for sure, opposing teams MUST put their most rugged physical guy on Kanter. If you dont the guy just vacuums up every offensive board and eats you with putbacks and boards. I mean yea.. its only 10 games, and yea, you dont want to overpay for a guy who helps you more than any other team. However you do want to win, you do want to build a team with complimentary parts, and you want to do it around players young enough to grow together. Kanter certainly checks most of those boxes.

If Noah or KOQ was starting how do you think Kanter would look vs. Cody Zeller? There needs to be some context IMO.

So far what we are seeing is everyone looks good next to KP

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season

Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?

I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.

Kanter started -22, -9 and -10. It was a rough first 3 games for the team.
Since then he's +12, +6, -8, -8, +2, +20 and -11 (+13 overall since the 0-3 start).

The data doesnt *exactly* show that KOQ is superior. IT doesnt quite work like that. KOQ is averaging 17 minutes a game. Of those what % would you say are vs. the other team's bench? While Kanter gets to bang again Dwight, KOQ gets Cody Zeller. In recent years that was Kanter playing behind Adams and Gobert where Kanter put up some of the most gaudy +/- and advanced stats in recent years.

Despite what Triplethreat says its becoming very apparent that we should start looking at "fit" as well as pure basketball production, skills, history, etc...

What happens when KP and Kanter are on floor together? Well one thing is for sure, opposing teams MUST put their most rugged physical guy on Kanter. If you dont the guy just vacuums up every offensive board and eats you with putbacks and boards. I mean yea.. its only 10 games, and yea, you dont want to overpay for a guy who helps you more than any other team. However you do want to win, you do want to build a team with complimentary parts, and you want to do it around players young enough to grow together. Kanter certainly checks most of those boxes.

If Noah or KOQ was starting how do you think Kanter would look vs. Cody Zeller? There needs to be some context IMO.

So far what we are seeing is everyone looks good next to KP

you beat me to it...

I also don't see what we're splitting hair about right now. Even after the slow start to the season, Kanter is still a plus.

I should add that I also value these statistics. That said, this just seems like cherry picking statistics to make to prove a pre-decided narrative

SupremeCommander wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season

Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?

I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.

Kanter started -22, -9 and -10. It was a rough first 3 games for the team.
Since then he's +12, +6, -8, -8, +2, +20 and -11 (+13 overall since the 0-3 start).

The data doesnt *exactly* show that KOQ is superior. IT doesnt quite work like that. KOQ is averaging 17 minutes a game. Of those what % would you say are vs. the other team's bench? While Kanter gets to bang again Dwight, KOQ gets Cody Zeller. In recent years that was Kanter playing behind Adams and Gobert where Kanter put up some of the most gaudy +/- and advanced stats in recent years.

Despite what Triplethreat says its becoming very apparent that we should start looking at "fit" as well as pure basketball production, skills, history, etc...

What happens when KP and Kanter are on floor together? Well one thing is for sure, opposing teams MUST put their most rugged physical guy on Kanter. If you dont the guy just vacuums up every offensive board and eats you with putbacks and boards. I mean yea.. its only 10 games, and yea, you dont want to overpay for a guy who helps you more than any other team. However you do want to win, you do want to build a team with complimentary parts, and you want to do it around players young enough to grow together. Kanter certainly checks most of those boxes.

If Noah or KOQ was starting how do you think Kanter would look vs. Cody Zeller? There needs to be some context IMO.

So far what we are seeing is everyone looks good next to KP

you beat me to it...

I also don't see what we're splitting hair about right now. Even after the slow start to the season, Kanter is still a plus.

I should add that I also value these statistics. That said, this just seems like cherry picking statistics to make to prove a pre-decided narrative

SupremeCommander wrote:let's dp a quick career comparison, before we start agonizing over 10 games to put it in some perspective

Rk	Player	From	To	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	 	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48	 	OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Enes Kanter	2012	2018	455	9733	19.7	.576	.027	.308	14.3	21.6	17.9	5.1	0.9	1.7	13.6	23.5		18.5	9.2	27.6	.136		1.0	-1.6	-0.6	0.6
2	Kyle O'Quinn	2013	2018	331	4809	17.5	.540	.057	.227	10.7	24.4	17.6	13.3	1.5	5.3	16.0	18.8		4.6	7.0	11.6	.116		0.1	3.8	3.9	2.1

Chandler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season

Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?

I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.

Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?

Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.

Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks

Look, I'm just reporting what has happened statistically. After 10 games (small sample), the team has definitely done better (on both ends) with KOQ than Kanter on the court.

Honest question: is there some accepted wisdom of how many games is a statistically significant sample size for a season, and what the confidence levels are?

I ask because in some contexts 5% is significant

Not really but you probably need far more games than people realize. I wouldn't even consider one full season to be a large sample. I say that because of how much player performance fluctuates from year to year.

sheesh. Saying you need a full season means that stats have no predictive value, only historical fact? Or are we now getting into Bayesian analysis and conditional probabilities of given X in year 2017, then probability of Y in 2018

anyway, why do you say more games "than people realize," when most people don't even have a guess as to the number, and when you don't know what the real number is

Oh I wouldn't say no predictive value. There's probably a tiny predictive value after just one game, and it gets a little less tiny with each game.
When I say more than people realize, I'm thinking about typical fans who post things like "TH JR was the worst signing" after 3 games or "KP is an MVP" after 10. Both could happen but it's way too early.

well if the stats have little predictive value that leaves eye ball test as an option; or just random coin toss

Eye ball test says KP + Kanter is better pairing than KP + KOQ.

KOQ gets more emphasis in second unit (as would Willy) and can play either 5 or 4. He gets more touches; passes more etc

Kanter does not need the offense to run through him to be effective; He consumes defensive energy making KP's life easier