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what makes KP and Kanter complement each other so well
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Finestrg
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11/8/2017  11:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2017  11:28 AM
Absolutely no way you move Kanter right now. Completely agree on him being a good fit next to KP. If anything, I'd like to see the ball go through Kanter more with Jack/Frank looking to set him up to score down low more. He's an excellent offensive weapon that's being a bit underutilized right now. I think we can get a lot more out of Kanter offensively. But all in all, he's playing well and fitting in very well, I agree.

I think we need to stand pat and see if this success is for real and sustainable. I think it very well could be--I was talking about the deep roster in pre-season and how this could be a 40-something win playoff team if things came together right. I still stand by that..If we can move a superfluous piece like Sessions, Kuz and/or Beasley for a pick, stashed asset or some really good no-brainer move somehow, okay, but otherwise I think we need to keep riding the wave right now.. A good part of me would like to see Dougie starting at the 3 with THJ moving to SG and I'd also like to see Willy get some time but Court and Kyle are playing too well right now. I say roll with what Jeff's doing--it's working. Let's roll with the rotation until at least the 30-35 game mark. That's when the wheels fell off the car last year. We should have a much clearer indication by then of what we have exactly.

One guy I always discount is Lance Thomas but he deserves a ton of credit. He a lot better player than I've ever given him credit for and like Kanter, he fits perfectly. This dude absolutely deserves the time he's getting over Beasley and Kuz.. Real good intangibles guy. Nice work!!

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Chandler
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11/8/2017  11:33 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season


Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?


I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.

Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?


Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.

Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks


Look, I'm just reporting what has happened statistically. After 10 games (small sample), the team has definitely done better (on both ends) with KOQ than Kanter on the court.

Honest question: is there some accepted wisdom of how many games is a statistically significant sample size for a season, and what the confidence levels are?

I ask because in some contexts 5% is significant


Not really but you probably need far more games than people realize. I wouldn't even consider one full season to be a large sample. I say that because of how much player performance fluctuates from year to year.

sheesh. Saying you need a full season means that stats have no predictive value, only historical fact? Or are we now getting into Bayesian analysis and conditional probabilities of given X in year 2017, then probability of Y in 2018

anyway, why do you say more games "than people realize," when most people don't even have a guess as to the number, and when you don't know what the real number is

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
fishmike
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11/8/2017  11:48 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season


Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?


I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Kanter started -22, -9 and -10. It was a rough first 3 games for the team.
Since then he's +12, +6, -8, -8, +2, +20 and -11 (+13 overall since the 0-3 start).

The data doesnt *exactly* show that KOQ is superior. IT doesnt quite work like that. KOQ is averaging 17 minutes a game. Of those what % would you say are vs. the other team's bench? While Kanter gets to bang again Dwight, KOQ gets Cody Zeller. In recent years that was Kanter playing behind Adams and Gobert where Kanter put up some of the most gaudy +/- and advanced stats in recent years.

Despite what Triplethreat says its becoming very apparent that we should start looking at "fit" as well as pure basketball production, skills, history, etc...

What happens when KP and Kanter are on floor together? Well one thing is for sure, opposing teams MUST put their most rugged physical guy on Kanter. If you dont the guy just vacuums up every offensive board and eats you with putbacks and boards. I mean yea.. its only 10 games, and yea, you dont want to overpay for a guy who helps you more than any other team. However you do want to win, you do want to build a team with complimentary parts, and you want to do it around players young enough to grow together. Kanter certainly checks most of those boxes.

If Noah or KOQ was starting how do you think Kanter would look vs. Cody Zeller? There needs to be some context IMO.

So far what we are seeing is everyone looks good next to KP

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
Bonn1997
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11/8/2017  12:24 PM
Chandler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season


Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?


I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.

Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?


Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.

Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks


Look, I'm just reporting what has happened statistically. After 10 games (small sample), the team has definitely done better (on both ends) with KOQ than Kanter on the court.

Honest question: is there some accepted wisdom of how many games is a statistically significant sample size for a season, and what the confidence levels are?

I ask because in some contexts 5% is significant


Not really but you probably need far more games than people realize. I wouldn't even consider one full season to be a large sample. I say that because of how much player performance fluctuates from year to year.

sheesh. Saying you need a full season means that stats have no predictive value, only historical fact? Or are we now getting into Bayesian analysis and conditional probabilities of given X in year 2017, then probability of Y in 2018

anyway, why do you say more games "than people realize," when most people don't even have a guess as to the number, and when you don't know what the real number is


Oh I wouldn't say no predictive value. There's probably a tiny predictive value after just one game, and it gets a little less tiny with each game.
When I say more than people realize, I'm thinking about typical fans who post things like "TH JR was the worst signing" after 3 games or "KP is an MVP" after 10. Both could happen but it's way too early.
SupremeCommander
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11/8/2017  1:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2017  1:22 PM
fishmike wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season


Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?


I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Kanter started -22, -9 and -10. It was a rough first 3 games for the team.
Since then he's +12, +6, -8, -8, +2, +20 and -11 (+13 overall since the 0-3 start).

The data doesnt *exactly* show that KOQ is superior. IT doesnt quite work like that. KOQ is averaging 17 minutes a game. Of those what % would you say are vs. the other team's bench? While Kanter gets to bang again Dwight, KOQ gets Cody Zeller. In recent years that was Kanter playing behind Adams and Gobert where Kanter put up some of the most gaudy +/- and advanced stats in recent years.

Despite what Triplethreat says its becoming very apparent that we should start looking at "fit" as well as pure basketball production, skills, history, etc...

What happens when KP and Kanter are on floor together? Well one thing is for sure, opposing teams MUST put their most rugged physical guy on Kanter. If you dont the guy just vacuums up every offensive board and eats you with putbacks and boards. I mean yea.. its only 10 games, and yea, you dont want to overpay for a guy who helps you more than any other team. However you do want to win, you do want to build a team with complimentary parts, and you want to do it around players young enough to grow together. Kanter certainly checks most of those boxes.

If Noah or KOQ was starting how do you think Kanter would look vs. Cody Zeller? There needs to be some context IMO.

So far what we are seeing is everyone looks good next to KP

you beat me to it...

I also don't see what we're splitting hair about right now. Even after the slow start to the season, Kanter is still a plus.

I should add that I also value these statistics. That said, this just seems like cherry picking statistics to make to prove a pre-decided narrative

fishmike said: Yes. Sometimes I confuse the alerts with when your mom calls. BTW she said defensive guards are really important.
SupremeCommander
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11/8/2017  1:26 PM
let's dp a quick career comparison, before we start agonizing over 10 games to put it in some perspective


Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Enes Kanter 2012 2018 455 9733 19.7 .576 .027 .308 14.3 21.6 17.9 5.1 0.9 1.7 13.6 23.5 18.5 9.2 27.6 .136 1.0 -1.6 -0.6 0.6
2 Kyle O'Quinn 2013 2018 331 4809 17.5 .540 .057 .227 10.7 24.4 17.6 13.3 1.5 5.3 16.0 18.8 4.6 7.0 11.6 .116 0.1 3.8 3.9 2.1

fishmike said: Yes. Sometimes I confuse the alerts with when your mom calls. BTW she said defensive guards are really important.
Bonn1997
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11/8/2017  1:47 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season


Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?


I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.
Kanter started -22, -9 and -10. It was a rough first 3 games for the team.
Since then he's +12, +6, -8, -8, +2, +20 and -11 (+13 overall since the 0-3 start).

The data doesnt *exactly* show that KOQ is superior. IT doesnt quite work like that. KOQ is averaging 17 minutes a game. Of those what % would you say are vs. the other team's bench? While Kanter gets to bang again Dwight, KOQ gets Cody Zeller. In recent years that was Kanter playing behind Adams and Gobert where Kanter put up some of the most gaudy +/- and advanced stats in recent years.

Despite what Triplethreat says its becoming very apparent that we should start looking at "fit" as well as pure basketball production, skills, history, etc...

What happens when KP and Kanter are on floor together? Well one thing is for sure, opposing teams MUST put their most rugged physical guy on Kanter. If you dont the guy just vacuums up every offensive board and eats you with putbacks and boards. I mean yea.. its only 10 games, and yea, you dont want to overpay for a guy who helps you more than any other team. However you do want to win, you do want to build a team with complimentary parts, and you want to do it around players young enough to grow together. Kanter certainly checks most of those boxes.

If Noah or KOQ was starting how do you think Kanter would look vs. Cody Zeller? There needs to be some context IMO.

So far what we are seeing is everyone looks good next to KP

you beat me to it...

I also don't see what we're splitting hair about right now. Even after the slow start to the season, Kanter is still a plus.

I should add that I also value these statistics. That said, this just seems like cherry picking statistics to make to prove a pre-decided narrative


OK, but the only argument I made was that "I'm still not sold on Kanter." I didn't say it's time to get rid of him.
technomaster
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11/8/2017  1:47 PM
There’s the anomaly vs the synergy.

KP and Kanter have been shooting at well beyond their previous best seasons. Hot starts? Better conditioning? Better conditioning? Better skills?

When I watch KP highlights this year, he always seems to shooting against single coverage. No help defender is anywhere to be found.

This season:
KP 52% fg (last season 46%)
Kanter 63% fg (last season 53%)

The jury is still out whether they can keep it up - or in the case of KP - how much will it continue to improve.

Kevin Dolorico | "That was two, two from the heart." - John Starks
Bonn1997
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11/8/2017  1:51 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:let's dp a quick career comparison, before we start agonizing over 10 games to put it in some perspective


Rk Player From To G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 OBPM DBPM BPM VORP
1 Enes Kanter 2012 2018 455 9733 19.7 .576 .027 .308 14.3 21.6 17.9 5.1 0.9 1.7 13.6 23.5 18.5 9.2 27.6 .136 1.0 -1.6 -0.6 0.6
2 Kyle O'Quinn 2013 2018 331 4809 17.5 .540 .057 .227 10.7 24.4 17.6 13.3 1.5 5.3 16.0 18.8 4.6 7.0 11.6 .116 0.1 3.8 3.9 2.1


What stands out is that KOQ is reliably considered a good player by any of the metrics, whereas Kanter ranges anywhere from outstanding to awful depending on the metric.
Chandler
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11/8/2017  3:18 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season


Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?


I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.

Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?


Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.

Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks


Look, I'm just reporting what has happened statistically. After 10 games (small sample), the team has definitely done better (on both ends) with KOQ than Kanter on the court.

Honest question: is there some accepted wisdom of how many games is a statistically significant sample size for a season, and what the confidence levels are?

I ask because in some contexts 5% is significant


Not really but you probably need far more games than people realize. I wouldn't even consider one full season to be a large sample. I say that because of how much player performance fluctuates from year to year.

sheesh. Saying you need a full season means that stats have no predictive value, only historical fact? Or are we now getting into Bayesian analysis and conditional probabilities of given X in year 2017, then probability of Y in 2018

anyway, why do you say more games "than people realize," when most people don't even have a guess as to the number, and when you don't know what the real number is


Oh I wouldn't say no predictive value. There's probably a tiny predictive value after just one game, and it gets a little less tiny with each game.
When I say more than people realize, I'm thinking about typical fans who post things like "TH JR was the worst signing" after 3 games or "KP is an MVP" after 10. Both could happen but it's way too early.

well if the stats have little predictive value that leaves eye ball test as an option; or just random coin toss

Eye ball test says KP + Kanter is better pairing than KP + KOQ.

KOQ gets more emphasis in second unit (as would Willy) and can play either 5 or 4. He gets more touches; passes more etc

Kanter does not need the offense to run through him to be effective; He consumes defensive energy making KP's life easier

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
Bonn1997
Posts: 58314
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11/8/2017  3:47 PM
Chandler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I'm still not sold on Kanter. He's a nice scorer and rebounder but KOQ is the better 2-way player and the team's #s are much better with KOQ on the court. I like Kanter but don't want us to overpay him.

Believe it goes beyond the numbers, chemistry as well should be factored in. They haven't been playing long together, yet they are already one of the best front lines in the league. Time should only improve that chemistry.

Is there a stat that tracks how often other teams are driving on them, and the result? I get the feeling they are forcing teams to rely on their three more. Our 3 pt defense is more of a concern to me than interior defense. I think we're pretty good there, this early in the season


Occasionally, they look like one of the best front lines in the league. The team is still -29 with Kanter on the court for the season and +32 with him off. (Kanter is a statistical enigma, though, looking great in some stats and bad in others.)

Whats Kanter's +/- since we started winning?


I did add a little more after you quoted that message.
To answer your question, in the last 7 games, the team is +11 with him on the court and +38 with him off.

Great, thanks. Does this have to do with our big 4th quarter comebacks?


Maybe. But having him off the court seems critical to our comebacks.

Typically we rely on three point shooting during our comebacks


Look, I'm just reporting what has happened statistically. After 10 games (small sample), the team has definitely done better (on both ends) with KOQ than Kanter on the court.

Honest question: is there some accepted wisdom of how many games is a statistically significant sample size for a season, and what the confidence levels are?

I ask because in some contexts 5% is significant


Not really but you probably need far more games than people realize. I wouldn't even consider one full season to be a large sample. I say that because of how much player performance fluctuates from year to year.

sheesh. Saying you need a full season means that stats have no predictive value, only historical fact? Or are we now getting into Bayesian analysis and conditional probabilities of given X in year 2017, then probability of Y in 2018

anyway, why do you say more games "than people realize," when most people don't even have a guess as to the number, and when you don't know what the real number is


Oh I wouldn't say no predictive value. There's probably a tiny predictive value after just one game, and it gets a little less tiny with each game.
When I say more than people realize, I'm thinking about typical fans who post things like "TH JR was the worst signing" after 3 games or "KP is an MVP" after 10. Both could happen but it's way too early.

well if the stats have little predictive value that leaves eye ball test as an option; or just random coin toss

Eye ball test says KP + Kanter is better pairing than KP + KOQ.

KOQ gets more emphasis in second unit (as would Willy) and can play either 5 or 4. He gets more touches; passes more etc

Kanter does not need the offense to run through him to be effective; He consumes defensive energy making KP's life easier


That just confirms to me that the eyes see what they want to see. I see excellent passing, shot-blocking, rebounding, and shooting from KOQ. I see excellent passing and rebounding and inconsistent D from Kanter.
what makes KP and Kanter complement each other so well

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