fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.

I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.

No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

fitzfarm wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.

I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.

I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.

No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.

I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.

I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.

No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

The thing about Noah is he has a hard time putting the ball in the hole and other teams know this, its 4 vs 5 when Noah is on the floor on offense.... think how easy it will be to double team KP when a guy like Noah is out there. Also why move any of our three best centers, when Noah is clearly the weak link.

How many games did horny play Noah to start and then he sat him for half of the first and all of the second. I feel like it was a lot of games and same goes for the second half last year with Noah...

I’d hate to just bash Noah I love his vocal leadership, but for 2 years his play has not backed up his voice. I’d love to have him make me eat crow, he’s a real likable guy,and a great locker room presents for the kids. Is NOAH worth moving a up and coming player like O’quinn, will/can we keep both oquinn and kanter if kanter opts out? What will oquinn get in the open market, and will he stay for a home town discount.

bench bigs like oquinn aren’t out there, he will be really hard to replace.

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.

I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.

I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.

No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

Noah has a role here so long as the Knicks don't have use for the cap space they can create by stretching him.

Even last year he was still one of the best passing big men in the game.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/assistRatio/year/2017

His rebound rate was solid, particularly offensively.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/reboundRate/year/2017

His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH.

All development does not take place in games. It happens in practice too.

He's also the best defensive communicator on the team, constantly talking. If we believe Kanter has some development left, the Knicks could do worse and if nothing else having him and WH observe Noah for the next five months.

I don’t think Noah is worth moving young bigs like oquinn or kanter and losing the chemistry built up between KP and and the young bigs...

Kanter over Noah, oquinn over Noah and Willy over Noah all day everyday no way you pick Noah to play over any of our other bigs.

newyorknewyork wrote:Last year was not a good representation of Noah. He came in out of shape and was lethargic. He put in more work this off season then he did the last one to be in better shape. He seemed way motivated going into this season. He won't ever be Noah from a couple of yrs ago on the bulls. But taking KOQs role and mins is absolutely an option. He is a hustle player like KOQ. But has a higher IQ and intangibles.

Agreed...also Noah is a mobile big...KOQ....will be looking for a payday...so he will opt out and get paid...forget hometown discount....his next contract will be his first big money...were not signing KO for 50 when we would have to pay Kanter and Noah...also KP will be probably be in the high 20s low 30s per yr...Crowder would be a good fit

fitzfarm wrote:’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. happen if/when KOQ is traded.

The Stretch Provision formula is 2X + 1, X being the number of full years left in the contract.

2(2) + 1 = 5

AAV of 18 million a year for two years = 36 million

Stretch Cap charge would be 7.2 million a year, for FIVE YEARS.

There's nothing "minimal" about that. There is nothing "few" about that either.

The best the Knicks could do is wash his last year out for 6 million a year for three years. At that point, you might as well just let him expire naturally.

While I wish injury on no one, the only way out for the Knicks is a catastrophic injury aka the Chris Bosh Rule, where the cash hit still applies ( and is mostly covered by insurance) but the cap charge clears.

The easy answer is that there will be no trade. Rather Sessions or Beasley are let go. Both are superfluous.

However, speculatively, Kuzminskas *could still be in play* after one of the aforementioned players are released and the rationale would be to ratchet up the talent given the Knicks' winning ways to keep them winning.

New Orleans has lost Soloman Hill for the season. Would they trade a 2019 1st rounder for Kuz?

CLee and Kuz for Wesley Matthews works. Unspectacular but a solid vet who could add value down the line.

As For O'Quinn, O'Quinn and our trade exception work for Crowder. No need to bundle Kuz at all.

TripleThreat wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. happen if/when KOQ is traded.

The Stretch Provision formula is 2X + 1, X being the number of full years left in the contract.

2(2) + 1 = 5

AAV of 18 million a year for two years = 36 million

Stretch Cap charge would be 7.2 million a year, for FIVE YEARS.

There's nothing "minimal" about that. There is nothing "few" about that either.

The best the Knicks could do is wash his last year out for 6 million a year for three years. At that point, you might as well just let him expire naturally.

While I wish injury on no one, the only way out for the Knicks is a catastrophic injury aka the Chris Bosh Rule, where the cash hit still applies ( and is mostly covered by insurance) but the cap charge clears.

Knickoftime wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

fishmike wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.

I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.

I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.

No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

Noah has a role here so long as the Knicks don't have use for the cap space they can create by stretching him.

Even last year he was still one of the best passing big men in the game.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/assistRatio/year/2017

His rebound rate was solid, particularly offensively.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/reboundRate/year/2017

His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH.

All development does not take place in games. It happens in practice too.

He's also the best defensive communicator on the team, constantly talking. If we believe Kanter has some development left, the Knicks could do worse and if nothing else having him and WH observe Noah for the next five months.

No doubt Noah is a good rebounder and passer, but man he is god awful at scoring the ball. Even those oquinn put backs. noah hasn’t shown he can do that the guy has a hard time making a layup, his defense was sub par last year he was very slow to get to his opponent... again another reason horny pulled him so quickly in games last year.

I don’t think Noah is worth moving young bigs like oquinn or kanter and losing the chemistry built up between KP and and the young bigs...

Kanter over Noah, oquinn over Noah and Willy over Noah all day everyday no way you pick Noah to play over any of our other bigs.

"His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH."