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KOQ and Kuz for Crowder straight up
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fitzfarm
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11/6/2017  4:29 PM
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.


I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.


I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.


No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

AUTOADVERT
fishmike
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11/6/2017  4:39 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.


I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.


I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.


No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
Knickoftime
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11/6/2017  4:52 PM
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.


I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.


I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.


No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

Noah has a role here so long as the Knicks don't have use for the cap space they can create by stretching him.

Even last year he was still one of the best passing big men in the game.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/assistRatio/year/2017

His rebound rate was solid, particularly offensively.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/reboundRate/year/2017

His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH.

All development does not take place in games. It happens in practice too.

He's also the best defensive communicator on the team, constantly talking. If we believe Kanter has some development left, the Knicks could do worse and if nothing else having him and WH observe Noah for the next five months.

fitzfarm
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11/6/2017  5:03 PM
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.


I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.


I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.


No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

The thing about Noah is he has a hard time putting the ball in the hole and other teams know this, its 4 vs 5 when Noah is on the floor on offense.... think how easy it will be to double team KP when a guy like Noah is out there. Also why move any of our three best centers, when Noah is clearly the weak link.

How many games did horny play Noah to start and then he sat him for half of the first and all of the second. I feel like it was a lot of games and same goes for the second half last year with Noah...

I’d hate to just bash Noah I love his vocal leadership, but for 2 years his play has not backed up his voice. I’d love to have him make me eat crow, he’s a real likable guy,and a great locker room presents for the kids. Is NOAH worth moving a up and coming player like O’quinn, will/can we keep both oquinn and kanter if kanter opts out? What will oquinn get in the open market, and will he stay for a home town discount.

bench bigs like oquinn aren’t out there, he will be really hard to replace.

GustavBahler
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11/6/2017  5:19 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:I think Crowder's situation is similar to Lee's last year. One solid defender can't fix all of the roster's weaknesses. That and he's not hitting his three at a decent rate. He's not that much better than Lance if he"s not hitting from downtown.

Agree, Lance is a Swiss Army Knife on the floor. Working his way back to being a full time starter. If we could move KOQ (and or Kuz) for another PG, and drop Sessions, that could help get us to the playoffs, depending on who we get.

Kanter helped make KP better by showing such an aggressive post game, maybe a PG who can get to the rim more than Jack or Sessions would give Frank some encouragement as well.

fitzfarm
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11/6/2017  5:19 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.


I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.


I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.


No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

Noah has a role here so long as the Knicks don't have use for the cap space they can create by stretching him.

Even last year he was still one of the best passing big men in the game.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/assistRatio/year/2017

His rebound rate was solid, particularly offensively.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/reboundRate/year/2017

His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH.

All development does not take place in games. It happens in practice too.

He's also the best defensive communicator on the team, constantly talking. If we believe Kanter has some development left, the Knicks could do worse and if nothing else having him and WH observe Noah for the next five months.


No doubt Noah is a good rebounder and passer, but man he is god awful at scoring the ball. Even those oquinn put backs. noah hasn’t shown he can do that the guy has a hard time making a layup, his defense was sub par last year he was very slow to get to his opponent... again another reason horny pulled him so quickly in games last year.

I don’t think Noah is worth moving young bigs like oquinn or kanter and losing the chemistry built up between KP and and the young bigs...

Kanter over Noah, oquinn over Noah and Willy over Noah all day everyday no way you pick Noah to play over any of our other bigs.

Knickoftime
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11/6/2017  5:29 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.


I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.


I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.


No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

Noah has a role here so long as the Knicks don't have use for the cap space they can create by stretching him.

Even last year he was still one of the best passing big men in the game.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/assistRatio/year/2017

His rebound rate was solid, particularly offensively.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/reboundRate/year/2017

His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH.

All development does not take place in games. It happens in practice too.

He's also the best defensive communicator on the team, constantly talking. If we believe Kanter has some development left, the Knicks could do worse and if nothing else having him and WH observe Noah for the next five months.


No doubt Noah is a good rebounder and passer, but man he is god awful at scoring the ball. Even those oquinn put backs. noah hasn’t shown he can do that the guy has a hard time making a layup, his defense was sub par last year he was very slow to get to his opponent... again another reason horny pulled him so quickly in games last year.

I don’t think Noah is worth moving young bigs like oquinn or kanter and losing the chemistry built up between KP and and the young bigs...

Kanter over Noah, oquinn over Noah and Willy over Noah all day everyday no way you pick Noah to play over any of our other bigs.

"His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH."

newyorknewyork
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11/6/2017  5:41 PM
Last year was not a good representation of Noah. He came in out of shape and was lethargic. He put in more work this off season then he did the last one to be in better shape. He seemed way motivated going into this season. He won't ever be Noah from a couple of yrs ago on the bulls. But taking KOQs role and mins is absolutely an option. He is a hustle player like KOQ. But has a higher IQ and intangibles.
TPercy
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11/6/2017  8:26 PM
Been saying something along these lines...a trade like this is an absolute no brainer. We can only hope Perry has been in contact with Cavs over something like this.
The Future is Bright!
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11/6/2017  8:46 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:Last year was not a good representation of Noah. He came in out of shape and was lethargic. He put in more work this off season then he did the last one to be in better shape. He seemed way motivated going into this season. He won't ever be Noah from a couple of yrs ago on the bulls. But taking KOQs role and mins is absolutely an option. He is a hustle player like KOQ. But has a higher IQ and intangibles.

Agreed...also Noah is a mobile big...KOQ....will be looking for a payday...so he will opt out and get paid...forget hometown discount....his next contract will be his first big money...were not signing KO for 50 when we would have to pay Kanter and Noah...also KP will be probably be in the high 20s low 30s per yr...Crowder would be a good fit

TripleThreat
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11/6/2017  9:33 PM
fishmike wrote:Money works. Crowder has been terrible there. Either he's a bad fit or he hates it. His contract remains a great asset moving forward or come trade deadline. Cle's small frontline with Love at center stinks. Its just not working for them. The 2-1 clears a spot for Noah and we get a nice defensive 3/4 on a great contract with a good rep around the league. I think this makes sense for both squads. But wtf do I know

Cavs are not going to wash away Crowders last three years for the last 10 games.

If the Cavs want KOQ, they can probably get him for a 2nd round pick. Rim protection is useful, it's not however as scarce as it used to be. It's scarce to the Cavs because LeGM is an idiot. Or they could chase expirings like Derrick Favors, Ed Davis and/or trade for Nerlens Noel at the deadline. Not saying any of those guys would be easy to get, just pointing out KOQ isn't the only rim protection option out there for the Cavs.

Cavs need rim protection. Badly. But won't gut what little wing defense they have to do it. One step forward means nothing if it's linked to two steps back.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
TripleThreat
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11/6/2017  9:41 PM

fitzfarm wrote:’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. happen if/when KOQ is traded.


The Stretch Provision formula is 2X + 1, X being the number of full years left in the contract.

2(2) + 1 = 5

AAV of 18 million a year for two years = 36 million

Stretch Cap charge would be 7.2 million a year, for FIVE YEARS.

There's nothing "minimal" about that. There is nothing "few" about that either.

The best the Knicks could do is wash his last year out for 6 million a year for three years. At that point, you might as well just let him expire naturally.

While I wish injury on no one, the only way out for the Knicks is a catastrophic injury aka the Chris Bosh Rule, where the cash hit still applies ( and is mostly covered by insurance) but the cap charge clears.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Swishfm3
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11/6/2017  10:50 PM
fishmike wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:No.

1)I know you're a Hernangomez homer but he is the one that needs to go (I say that not know if it would work money wise).

2)KOQ is settled in the rotation and a reason to early team success, why would you want to disrupt that?

3) Then there's this...http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=57489

so to answer:
1) Not sure I am a homer, but few things hurt more franchises more than prematurely trading young talent. I feel the same way about Dotson I do about Willy. Untouchable? No, but I consider both lottery pick caliber talent and value them accordingly. If thats overvaluing I am ok with erring on that side

2) I dont want to. However good teams that sustain winning are forward thinking. KOQ is playing very well for us. What is his long term place and role here? With Willy/Kanter and Noah I am not sure there is one. Somehow the glut of bigmen needs to break up. The thought process is that KOQ can yield a future asset while Noah or Willy steps into his role

3)Im ok with that also. Nothing has changed. Again, its just about forward thinking and opportunity. I am not looking to make whole sale changes. The only change is the 16mpg at back up center are up for grabs and we have two good candidates in Willy/Noah. Both good for different reasons.

I think its more likely we get value for KOQ than Willy. Willy has appeal to a rebuilding young team. Well thats what the Knicks are, winning or not. So deals for Willy are tougher because we would want a young prospect or quality draft pick back. Two things that young rebuilding teams dont give up. However KOQ is ready to help a playoff team now. He's got a good jumper, is an excellent passer and protects the rim. He would bring a lot to a team like Hou, GS, Cle, Portland... teams looking to add depth. KOQ is a nice bench player (we are seeing that first hand) and IMO worth a late first rounder or young player not getting burn. In Crowder's case he's an asset, but one that be a long term fixture.

Absolutely right...KOQ has the most value at the moment but you are also right that the Kanter/KOQ combo is a really good one so, again I ask, why disrupt that? Why can't they both be included in the Knicks future? The Knicks already have the future Hernangomez in Kanter.

It's obvious that I am not impressed with Hernangomez. At least not to the point that I would keep him over KOQ or Kanter.

Kuzminskas, I was really excited for last year but he also hasn't shown anything worthwhile

Kemet
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11/6/2017  11:08 PM
If the Cavs had K'Quinn, both Love n Thompson performance would move up to the next level in the regular season games.
Its bad enough the Knicks coaches the past two seasons stop giving K'Quinn playing time so the team could tank .. Quinn is a 2-way C/F role-player u KEEP.
TripleThreat
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11/6/2017  11:23 PM
Kemet wrote:If the Cavs had K'Quinn, both Love n Thompson performance would move up to the next level in the regular season games.


Unfortunately, it's probably not the case.

What it will all come down to is how well the Cavs match up against the Warriors in terms of individual matchups in a short series.

The way LBJ runs an offense means Love is basically reduced to a spot up shooter. It's really a waste of his skill set. Thompson is just an overpaid energy guy who will fall hard off of a cliff, for what little he does give, once he loses even half a step off his game.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
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11/7/2017  12:26 AM
Given the energy and chemistry O'Quinn has brought to his role, I'd think twice about tampering with what's currently working.

The easy answer is that there will be no trade. Rather Sessions or Beasley are let go. Both are superfluous.

However, speculatively, Kuzminskas *could still be in play* after one of the aforementioned players are released and the rationale would be to ratchet up the talent given the Knicks' winning ways to keep them winning.

New Orleans has lost Soloman Hill for the season. Would they trade a 2019 1st rounder for Kuz?

CLee and Kuz for Wesley Matthews works. Unspectacular but a solid vet who could add value down the line.

As For O'Quinn, O'Quinn and our trade exception work for Crowder. No need to bundle Kuz at all.

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11/7/2017  1:22 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2017  1:33 AM
ekstarks94 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Last year was not a good representation of Noah. He came in out of shape and was lethargic. He put in more work this off season then he did the last one to be in better shape. He seemed way motivated going into this season. He won't ever be Noah from a couple of yrs ago on the bulls. But taking KOQs role and mins is absolutely an option. He is a hustle player like KOQ. But has a higher IQ and intangibles.

Agreed...also Noah is a mobile big...KOQ....will be looking for a payday...so he will opt out and get paid...forget hometown discount....his next contract will be his first big money...were not signing KO for 50 when we would have to pay Kanter and Noah...also KP will be probably be in the high 20s low 30s per yr...Crowder would be a good fit

But Noah is not the athlete O’quinn is, and he has issues making lay ups let alone a 5 foot shots he also has a lot of trouble guarding the smaller faster centers, Noah is SLOW, and was a glaring hole on both ends last year. This year not being on PEDS all i know from baseball that once a player stops using his body breaks down and everything that kept you in the above average disappears into below average.

If we move O’quinn to make room for Noah it will be a HUGE mistake! Again Noah cant do half of what O’quinn does on a nightly basis, its as simple as put back lay ups or spot up jumpers. O’quinn can make them all night long, Noah just simply doesn’t have that ability.

I also find nothing wrong with letting Noah ride the pine all year who cares about his feelings or money if your not as good you don’t deserve to be on the floor

fitzfarm
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11/7/2017  1:31 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. happen if/when KOQ is traded.


The Stretch Provision formula is 2X + 1, X being the number of full years left in the contract.

2(2) + 1 = 5

AAV of 18 million a year for two years = 36 million

Stretch Cap charge would be 7.2 million a year, for FIVE YEARS.

There's nothing "minimal" about that. There is nothing "few" about that either.

The best the Knicks could do is wash his last year out for 6 million a year for three years. At that point, you might as well just let him expire naturally.

While I wish injury on no one, the only way out for the Knicks is a catastrophic injury aka the Chris Bosh Rule, where the cash hit still applies ( and is mostly covered by insurance) but the cap charge clears.


Thanks for posting that I didn’t realize that his cap hit would be 7 mil for 5 years... better off just letting him ride the pine till his contract runs out.... its one of the only few things Phil did that we can say DAM YOU PHIL you stuck us with a uncoordinated, chickenwing shooting, offensive waste of space, we bless you for KP and Frankie but dam you for Noah! Might be the worst contract in the NBA right now.
ekstarks94
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11/7/2017  6:38 AM
fitzfarm wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Last year was not a good representation of Noah. He came in out of shape and was lethargic. He put in more work this off season then he did the last one to be in better shape. He seemed way motivated going into this season. He won't ever be Noah from a couple of yrs ago on the bulls. But taking KOQs role and mins is absolutely an option. He is a hustle player like KOQ. But has a higher IQ and intangibles.

Agreed...also Noah is a mobile big...KOQ....will be looking for a payday...so he will opt out and get paid...forget hometown discount....his next contract will be his first big money...were not signing KO for 50 when we would have to pay Kanter and Noah...also KP will be probably be in the high 20s low 30s per yr...Crowder would be a good fit

But Noah is not the athlete O’quinn is, and he has issues making lay ups let alone a 5 foot shots he also has a lot of trouble guarding the smaller faster centers, Noah is SLOW, and was a glaring hole on both ends last year. This year not being on PEDS all i know from baseball that once a player stops using his body breaks down and everything that kept you in the above average disappears into below average.

If we move O’quinn to make room for Noah it will be a HUGE mistake! Again Noah cant do half of what O’quinn does on a nightly basis, its as simple as put back lay ups or spot up jumpers. O’quinn can make them all night long, Noah just simply doesn’t have that ability.

I also find nothing wrong with letting Noah ride the pine all year who cares about his feelings or money if your not as good you don’t deserve to be on the floor

Bottom line is your not paying Your 3 centers close to 200 mill....KO floor is going to be 50....Kanter is going to be close to 100 mill...can't pay both....

So this is the gamble do you ride KO to the deadline and convert him into something useful or do you roll...and try to make playoffs and deal with this in the off season...where your options are limited

fishmike
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11/7/2017  8:59 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
fishmike wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:how about we trade Noah to a team with cap room and trade our minimally protected first round and Chicago's 2nd rounder and just erase his contract?

I hate trading our picks - but clear Noah and it starts making sense to keep Kanter long term.

There's no reason to trade Noah unless you have to clear his contract for a max free agent that wants to come here.


I’d rather just strech Noah and have his contract be a minimal cap hit for a few years. Noah is untradable unless we take on a just as useless bad contract so what’s the point in trading for a bad player on a bad contract. Noah for Bledsoe works strait up it might work if they keep demolishing his trade value... but bledsoe ruins Frankie’s development so again why not just strech Noah. Noah is not needed.

As for crowder, clevland would be foolish not to take KOQ for crowder, there center play has been nothing short of god awful O’quinn is a serious upgrade to Tompson.

The real question is why would we move our best bench big for a guy who is looking like a shell of his former self. I think all the trades and moving are taking its toll on crowder who is still a young guy. To go from Dallas,the Celtics,the Cavs in 3-4 years is tough.

And really how much of a upgrade is crowder to LEE ? Again is it enough to move our best big off our bench.... I don’t think so

Noah is going to play. It sounds like the staff was impressed by his shape. Back up center seems perfect for him. If he's reasonably healthy thats a good player to have. He's got a lot of pride. Noah is more valuable playing for us than being paid not to.

Crowder isnt a huge upgrade from Lee. He's cheaper and younger though, also he's bigger. So all things being fluid he gives us a cost controlled good player that gives JH more options and the Knicks a good chip/asset if opportunity shows itself.


I disagree on Noah i highly doubt he gets in front of KOQ or kanter, I even doubt he gets infront of Willy. Noah is useless and needs to be stretched.

Just because Noah is in shape doesn’t mean he can put the ball in the hoop he is such a liability on offense and his defense isn’t that great anymore..... if Noah touches the floor it should only be because of injury to the guys in front of him.

I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry.


No Phil means no need to play a less talented player in Noah. Phil isn’t here to criticize horny for not playing his signing so what’s the point?

He certainly is not useless. Last year KP said the defense went south when Noah went out. Noah is not cutting into Kanter or KOQs minutes. I didnt say that, I said Noah could take the backup center minutes. That would happen if/when KOQ is traded.

"
I mean look at last year Noah played only because he was Phil’s prize signing. Horny pulled him the first chance he got 90% of the time and never put him back in.... What’s the point of playing him 5 minutes when all he does is minimize the production on the floor and mess with the team chemistry."

This is just not at all how it happened. Noah got hurt and broke down. I dont pretend Noah is a starting center anymore, but in a backup role he could be very good.

In any case the point is you can trade KOQ because there are two guys behind him in Willy/Noah who can take those minutes and be positive. Both are great rebounders and passers. Willy can score it. Noah cant but he's a ball mover and screen setter etc..

Noah has a role here so long as the Knicks don't have use for the cap space they can create by stretching him.

Even last year he was still one of the best passing big men in the game.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/assistRatio/year/2017

His rebound rate was solid, particularly offensively.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/c/sort/reboundRate/year/2017

His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH.

All development does not take place in games. It happens in practice too.

He's also the best defensive communicator on the team, constantly talking. If we believe Kanter has some development left, the Knicks could do worse and if nothing else having him and WH observe Noah for the next five months.


No doubt Noah is a good rebounder and passer, but man he is god awful at scoring the ball. Even those oquinn put backs. noah hasn’t shown he can do that the guy has a hard time making a layup, his defense was sub par last year he was very slow to get to his opponent... again another reason horny pulled him so quickly in games last year.

I don’t think Noah is worth moving young bigs like oquinn or kanter and losing the chemistry built up between KP and and the young bigs...

Kanter over Noah, oquinn over Noah and Willy over Noah all day everyday no way you pick Noah to play over any of our other bigs.

"His role however, will be more of a practice mentor for Kanter and WH."

yes this... and when guys have sprained ankles or foul trouble he will provide great play. He will push in practice, and at any time coach has a vet he can put in for a stretch and get quality play. Noah is grossly overpaid but he's got a good role here next couple years. Its not something anyone would sign him for, but it doesnt mean he cant really help.
fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
KOQ and Kuz for Crowder straight up

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