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Might have to consider KOQ/Kanter long term
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newyorker4ever
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11/5/2017  12:37 PM
fitzfarm wrote:I don’t know about you guys but I think Noah will have a very hard time cracking the rotation let alone beat out Willy for the scraps minutes if O’quinn or kanter get in foul trouble...

Noah I think gets stretched and sooner rather then later, esp if kanter keeps this up and we offer him a big long contract. No way we let Noah’s contract get in the way of our young super tandem of KP and Kanter.

If O’quinn keeps up his play it just justifies stretching Noah even more.... i really feel Noah has no part on this team, love his heart and spirit but its not worth loosing O’quinn or Kanter over.

I don't see us stretching Noah and don't think it would be a good idea anyway when we have KP talking about wanting to see this team get better before he signs a contract cause if we stretch Noah doesn't that mean we have to pay him something like $7 mil per for like 7 years or something crazy like that?? Noah will be a productive player for us as long as he's healthy. People are still under estimating what this guy brings to a team cause they're mad about the contract Phil gave him and that he was injured most of last year.

Does anyone know exactly how the payments go if we did stretch him??

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newyorker4ever
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11/5/2017  12:40 PM
martin wrote:Just put this scenario out for everyone, making some obvious assumptions:

Player 		age	 2018-19 
-------------------------------------
Joakim Noah 32 18,530,000
Tim Hardaway 26 17,325,000
Courtney Lee 32 12,253,780
Lance Thomas 29 7,119,650
KP 22 5,697,054
Ron Baker 25 4,544,400
Frank Ntilikina 20 4,155,720
Willy 24 1,544,951
Damyean Dotson 24 1,378,242
1st Round pick 4,000,000
2rd Round pick 1,000,000
------------------------------------
77,548,797

Cap holds will add a few more million to salary number, but Knicks will have somewhere near $20M, cap will be around $101M.

That's within a range to be able to sign someone like Cousins (with a few moves).

The Knicks are gonna have a tough decision to make with Kanter. If he doesn't opt into that last year then we either lose him or use most of that $20 mil to sign him. This guy has brought soooooo much to this team with his play and his energy.

martin
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11/5/2017  12:49 PM
newyorker4ever wrote:
martin wrote:Just put this scenario out for everyone, making some obvious assumptions:

Player 		age	 2018-19 
-------------------------------------
Joakim Noah 32 18,530,000
Tim Hardaway 26 17,325,000
Courtney Lee 32 12,253,780
Lance Thomas 29 7,119,650
KP 22 5,697,054
Ron Baker 25 4,544,400
Frank Ntilikina 20 4,155,720
Willy 24 1,544,951
Damyean Dotson 24 1,378,242
1st Round pick 4,000,000
2rd Round pick 1,000,000
------------------------------------
77,548,797

Cap holds will add a few more million to salary number, but Knicks will have somewhere near $20M, cap will be around $101M.

That's within a range to be able to sign someone like Cousins (with a few moves).

The Knicks are gonna have a tough decision to make with Kanter. If he doesn't opt into that last year then we either lose him or use most of that $20 mil to sign him. This guy has brought soooooo much to this team with his play and his energy.

He has, the question should be: Do you see him being a starter on a deep playoff team. Cause at $20+M, that's what you should expect.

Kanter has this whole year to convince the Knicks of that.

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TripleThreat
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11/5/2017  9:10 PM
fishmike wrote:I also think both Kanter and KOQ would be open to staying long tern without breaking the bank.

Kanter, by circumstances, is basically in a "contract year" He does have a player option. However his style of game won't age well, and his next long term contract, if he gets one, will encompass elements of his decline phase. With more and more teams cap locked and/or in the tax zone in the coming offseason, he wants to lock in a long term deal as soon as possible, not wait one more year, albeit at a nice AAV, and then enter the landscape with teams resource strapped across the board two offseasons from now.

You have to weigh out his back half stretch with OKC and a few games now to the rest of his time in the NBA, which isn't good. I'm happy he cares now and is productive now, but he was a sulker and gave inconsistent effort in Utah. He also torched his own fanbase on the way out. The danger is him being the next Greg Ostertag and/or Erick Dampier. Cares enough to get that next big deal, then surfs the rest of the way by just not giving a ****. This is basically a chick move. Get on your knees and blow and cook some steaks until you get a ring, then get fat, stay home and watch reality TV and nag and cheat with the mailman. If Kanter was simply a hard working good soldier the entire time, that's different, but he's got red flags on his track record.

Short contract on a lower AAV. If he can do better than that, let him walk. Two year deal, with a team option for the 2nd year, no more than 10 million AAV.

I'm sure someone will say, that's basically like letting the guy walk for nothing. OK, walk for nothing. You can't defend the rim, you can't space the floor, just walk then.

He's not making Zinger better, Zinger is HIDING many of Kanter's flaws right now, and it's unclear if that's even sustainable. The only guys who can shade Kanter's flaws are Zinger and/or Draymond Green. That's about it. Warriors are not signing Kanter, so he needs the Knicks a ton more in a capped out environment than they need him.

Hernangomez needs minutes. He actually has room to grow into a better player. Kanter and KOQ, for better or worse, have established their baseline abilities in this league. While it sucks to let a player walk for nothing, the Knicks simply need the cap space and roster space and positional elements elsewhere.

Sure, she's blowing you and cooking you steaks now, but you think that's gonna stay consistent once you ring her up for good?

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
meloshouldgo
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11/5/2017  10:28 PM
martin wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
martin wrote:Just put this scenario out for everyone, making some obvious assumptions:

Player 		age	 2018-19 
-------------------------------------
Joakim Noah 32 18,530,000
Tim Hardaway 26 17,325,000
Courtney Lee 32 12,253,780
Lance Thomas 29 7,119,650
KP 22 5,697,054
Ron Baker 25 4,544,400
Frank Ntilikina 20 4,155,720
Willy 24 1,544,951
Damyean Dotson 24 1,378,242
1st Round pick 4,000,000
2rd Round pick 1,000,000
------------------------------------
77,548,797

Cap holds will add a few more million to salary number, but Knicks will have somewhere near $20M, cap will be around $101M.

That's within a range to be able to sign someone like Cousins (with a few moves).

The Knicks are gonna have a tough decision to make with Kanter. If he doesn't opt into that last year then we either lose him or use most of that $20 mil to sign him. This guy has brought soooooo much to this team with his play and his energy.

He has, the question should be: Do you see him being a starter on a deep playoff team. Cause at $20+M, that's what you should expect.

Kanter has this whole year to convince the Knicks of that.

I still have my doubts about him, but so far he has shown to be much more of a starter than Soft@Home

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
ekstarks94
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11/5/2017  10:44 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
fishmike wrote:I also think both Kanter and KOQ would be open to staying long tern without breaking the bank.

Kanter, by circumstances, is basically in a "contract year" He does have a player option. However his style of game won't age well, and his next long term contract, if he gets one, will encompass elements of his decline phase. With more and more teams cap locked and/or in the tax zone in the coming offseason, he wants to lock in a long term deal as soon as possible, not wait one more year, albeit at a nice AAV, and then enter the landscape with teams resource strapped across the board two offseasons from now.

You have to weigh out his back half stretch with OKC and a few games now to the rest of his time in the NBA, which isn't good. I'm happy he cares now and is productive now, but he was a sulker and gave inconsistent effort in Utah. He also torched his own fanbase on the way out. The danger is him being the next Greg Ostertag and/or Erick Dampier. Cares enough to get that next big deal, then surfs the rest of the way by just not giving a ****. This is basically a chick move. Get on your knees and blow and cook some steaks until you get a ring, then get fat, stay home and watch reality TV and nag and cheat with the mailman. If Kanter was simply a hard working good soldier the entire time, that's different, but he's got red flags on his track record.

Short contract on a lower AAV. If he can do better than that, let him walk. Two year deal, with a team option for the 2nd year, no more than 10 million AAV.

I'm sure someone will say, that's basically like letting the guy walk for nothing. OK, walk for nothing. You can't defend the rim, you can't space the floor, just walk then.

He's not making Zinger better, Zinger is HIDING many of Kanter's flaws right now, and it's unclear if that's even sustainable. The only guys who can shade Kanter's flaws are Zinger and/or Draymond Green. That's about it. Warriors are not signing Kanter, so he needs the Knicks a ton more in a capped out environment than they need him.

Hernangomez needs minutes. He actually has room to grow into a better player. Kanter and KOQ, for better or worse, have established their baseline abilities in this league. While it sucks to let a player walk for nothing, the Knicks simply need the cap space and roster space and positional elements elsewhere.

Sure, she's blowing you and cooking you steaks now, but you think that's gonna stay consistent once you ring her up for good?

Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

TripleThreat
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11/6/2017  1:15 AM
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Bonn1997
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11/6/2017  7:30 AM
The concern about using a lot of long-term cap space on KOQ and Kanter is the missed opportunity. I think KP is the kind of player legit superstars will want to come here to play with.
Jmpasq
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11/6/2017  7:51 AM
newyorker4ever wrote:
martin wrote:Just put this scenario out for everyone, making some obvious assumptions:

Player 		age	 2018-19 
-------------------------------------
Joakim Noah 32 18,530,000
Tim Hardaway 26 17,325,000
Courtney Lee 32 12,253,780
Lance Thomas 29 7,119,650
KP 22 5,697,054
Ron Baker 25 4,544,400
Frank Ntilikina 20 4,155,720
Willy 24 1,544,951
Damyean Dotson 24 1,378,242
1st Round pick 4,000,000
2rd Round pick 1,000,000
------------------------------------
77,548,797

Cap holds will add a few more million to salary number, but Knicks will have somewhere near $20M, cap will be around $101M.

That's within a range to be able to sign someone like Cousins (with a few moves).

The Knicks are gonna have a tough decision to make with Kanter. If he doesn't opt into that last year then we either lose him or use most of that $20 mil to sign him. This guy has brought soooooo much to this team with his play and his energy.

If we sign him we lose the ability to get our SF. It doesn't look like we will anywhere near bad enough to get a top 10 pick

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Jmpasq
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11/6/2017  7:56 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Jmpasq
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11/6/2017  7:57 AM
newyorker4ever wrote:
fitzfarm wrote:I don’t know about you guys but I think Noah will have a very hard time cracking the rotation let alone beat out Willy for the scraps minutes if O’quinn or kanter get in foul trouble...

Noah I think gets stretched and sooner rather then later, esp if kanter keeps this up and we offer him a big long contract. No way we let Noah’s contract get in the way of our young super tandem of KP and Kanter.

If O’quinn keeps up his play it just justifies stretching Noah even more.... i really feel Noah has no part on this team, love his heart and spirit but its not worth loosing O’quinn or Kanter over.

I don't see us stretching Noah and don't think it would be a good idea anyway when we have KP talking about wanting to see this team get better before he signs a contract cause if we stretch Noah doesn't that mean we have to pay him something like $7 mil per for like 7 years or something crazy like that?? Noah will be a productive player for us as long as he's healthy. People are still under estimating what this guy brings to a team cause they're mad about the contract Phil gave him and that he was injured most of last year.

Does anyone know exactly how the payments go if we did stretch him??

Only way you stretch Noah is if a star SF wants to play here

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Bonn1997
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11/6/2017  8:17 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.


If we could be guaranteed he'd play like this in a non-contract year, yeah I'd sign him long-term. But we can't.
Knixkik
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11/6/2017  8:49 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.


If we could be guaranteed he'd play like this in a non-contract year, yeah I'd sign him long-term. But we can't.

Maybe not, but he seems like someone who enjoys playing basketball and enjoys being a Knick. He doesn't strike me as the type that will stop working once he gets that next contract.

Bonn1997
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11/6/2017  9:09 AM
Knixkik wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.


If we could be guaranteed he'd play like this in a non-contract year, yeah I'd sign him long-term. But we can't.

Maybe not, but he seems like someone who enjoys playing basketball and enjoys being a Knick. He doesn't strike me as the type that will stop working once he gets that next contract.

I guess that's what we have to try to figure out. I'm not necessarily opposed to giving him a long-term deal. But there is a difference between enjoying basketball and being a Knick and being brutally dedicated to working on your game and conditioning every off-season.

BigDaddyG
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11/6/2017  9:09 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.


If we could be guaranteed he'd play like this in a non-contract year, yeah I'd sign him long-term. But we can't.

His play has been consistent for the last few years. He'd be a better bet to live up to a new deal than Hardaway. Im not sure if his defense has improved or if the current roster is doing a good job of covering his deficiencies. I'm not fully on board with bringing Kanter back if he opts out. We're fortunate enough to have a younger, cheaper option waiting in the wings and this roster still has plenty of holes to fill.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Bonn1997
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11/6/2017  9:15 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.


If we could be guaranteed he'd play like this in a non-contract year, yeah I'd sign him long-term. But we can't.

His play has been consistent for the last few years. He'd be a better bet to live up to a new deal than Hardaway. Im not sure if his defense has improved or if the current roster is doing a good job of covering his deficiencies. I'm not fully on board with bringing Kanter back if he opts out. We're fortunate enough to have a younger, cheaper option waiting in the wings and this roster still has plenty of holes to fill.

The thing is, it's a big gamble. I think legit superstars could want to come here to play with KP. Do we want to repeat Ewing and just put solid role players around KP forever?
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11/6/2017  9:28 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.


If we could be guaranteed he'd play like this in a non-contract year, yeah I'd sign him long-term. But we can't.

His play has been consistent for the last few years. He'd be a better bet to live up to a new deal than Hardaway. Im not sure if his defense has improved or if the current roster is doing a good job of covering his deficiencies. I'm not fully on board with bringing Kanter back if he opts out. We're fortunate enough to have a younger, cheaper option waiting in the wings and this roster still has plenty of holes to fill.

The thing is, it's a big gamble. I think legit superstars could want to come here to play with KP. Do we want to repeat Ewing and just put solid role players around KP forever?

As I said upthread, we traded away one of the best front lines in the league with KP/Lopez. We got lucky enough to find another center to give us one of the best front lines again.

Don't believe anyone should be lulled into believing that just anyone can step in and play well, fit next to KP.

Contract year or not, I think its a big mistake to let Kanter walk if he keeps playjng this well. If it aint broke, dont fix it.

I like the way McDermott has been playing, but we should be looking for a starting two way sf, or an additional PG, instead of finding another starting center to replace the one who has been working out so well for us. 19 rebounds!

SupremeCommander
Posts: 31791
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11/6/2017  9:31 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/6/2017  9:34 AM
if we're going to miss out on a top pick, I would sign Kanter and McBuckets to extensions. I think both are likely to get better. And if you're going to sign Kanter to an extension, why not KOQ?

So as much as I was against trading Willy, that's probably the move to make then to shore up our perimeter.

Do we stretch Noah then? That's the big question for me. I see no reason give him the types of minutes that would be needed to pump up his trade value. I guess things could change quickly so I wouldn't make that decision until the offseason, but that's looking like the biggest question moving forward

fishmike said: Yes. Sometimes I confuse the alerts with when your mom calls. BTW she said defensive guards are really important.
Knixkik
Posts: 28458
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USA
11/6/2017  10:00 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.


If we could be guaranteed he'd play like this in a non-contract year, yeah I'd sign him long-term. But we can't.

His play has been consistent for the last few years. He'd be a better bet to live up to a new deal than Hardaway. Im not sure if his defense has improved or if the current roster is doing a good job of covering his deficiencies. I'm not fully on board with bringing Kanter back if he opts out. We're fortunate enough to have a younger, cheaper option waiting in the wings and this roster still has plenty of holes to fill.

The thing is, it's a big gamble. I think legit superstars could want to come here to play with KP. Do we want to repeat Ewing and just put solid role players around KP forever?

I think with the salary cap the way it is now, that is less of a concern. After this season, 2 more years of Noah/Lee. Thomas is non guaranteed after next year. That leaves KP (if he signs an extension), Hardaway, and let's say Kanter as big contract players. The rest of the roster should be comprised of players on rookie contracts and low-level veteran contracts. We should have plenty of money to add a major free agent at that point in time. In 2-3 years, we will really know what we have here. Until then we should stay patient and limit contracts going beyond 2020.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 25022
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Member: #3049

11/6/2017  11:10 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
ekstarks94 wrote:Kanter is KPs Oakley....do all the physical rebounding in the paint and can throw it downlow to muscle it in....he plays that physical 90s ball and complements the KP finesse elements in his game....Kanter is 25...we have one year to evaluate...but let's see if this is sustainable....the rotation of KO and Kanter...is gold right now....everyone saying play Willy I hear u but chemistry is just strong right now....I like how we are looking ....really defending home court....we are starting to see the making of a team...

Basic VORP question has to come into play here ( Value Over Replacement Player. I.E. can you get 75 percent of the production at 15 percent of the cost, if you are factoring in "league average" play considering positional value and the current NBA marketplace structure for value)

Can the Knicks find someone who is making 15 percent of Kanter who can give them 60-70 percent of the rebounding, banging, post work? I'm not saying Jordan Bell will pan out, but for example, if the Knicks got a Jordan Bell -type, would that be a better long term strategy. A younger player, on a cheaper contract, allowing the cap space to be used elsewhere.

Zinger is one of maybe 5-6 guys in the league who can defend the rim and stretch the floor at an elite level, he's going to make most anyone look good around him when he's "on" his game. Kanter is playing well, no doubt, but it's still a pretty small sample size.

Kanter checks a lot of the boxes of the perfect player to play next to KP. He just doesn't pass well or have perimeter defensive skills but he is a plus rebounder, can bang down with centers, and has an elite post game. Its almost impossible to find a guy that can do all those 5 things, the list is pretty damn short.


If we could be guaranteed he'd play like this in a non-contract year, yeah I'd sign him long-term. But we can't.

His play has been consistent for the last few years. He'd be a better bet to live up to a new deal than Hardaway. Im not sure if his defense has improved or if the current roster is doing a good job of covering his deficiencies. I'm not fully on board with bringing Kanter back if he opts out. We're fortunate enough to have a younger, cheaper option waiting in the wings and this roster still has plenty of holes to fill.

The thing is, it's a big gamble. I think legit superstars could want to come here to play with KP. Do we want to repeat Ewing and just put solid role players around KP forever?

As I said upthread, we traded away one of the best front lines in the league with KP/Lopez. We got lucky enough to find another center to give us one of the best front lines again.

Don't believe anyone should be lulled into believing that just anyone can step in and play well, fit next to KP.

Contract year or not, I think its a big mistake to let Kanter walk if he keeps playjng this well. If it aint broke, dont fix it.

I like the way McDermott has been playing, but we should be looking for a starting two way sf, or an additional PG, instead of finding another starting center to replace the one who has been working out so well for us. 19 rebounds!


If Willy shows improvement throughout the season, can't call it a big mistake. It would be a no-brainer. A lot of ifs, I know. But cap space is as much of a resource as picks. Kanter would be a big loss, but i believe Willy can play well enough that the addition of a solid 3@D or star wing would more than balance things out. My view could easily change by the end of the season tho.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Might have to consider KOQ/Kanter long term

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