fishmike wrote:all I know is the more I watch Frank the more "triangle players" I want. Get me more of these guys.

I’ve said all along that so called Triangle Players just means Winning Players. Guys that don’t only rely on physical talent but have the right BBIQ, Skills and Mental makeup that leads to WINS. Guys that can function at a high level in a TEAM CONCEPT.

arkrud wrote:

Chandler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Chandler wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Then media will turn it into Phil's fault. Sure he won 11 champions but who cares?

Certainly not me. I don't care how many rings he brought to other cities as a coach. He gave us KP. That is great. Then he put guys like Melo and Rose on the floor who interfered with KP's development and the team's winning.

And draft picks, cap rooms, Willy, and Frank.

We don't have to worship this dude, and we have to give him credit for what he has done. Look at this way, IF Mills just copies what Phil had done,..

He'll give huge contracts to bad players that interfere with our young players' development. And he'll force an outdated offense that brings out the worst in all players. Be thankful we don't have a president who mocks the offensive approach of the Warriors.

Sure he has done something wrong. It is just like you watch fox it is Clinton, you watch CNN it is trump, but is it really important that the guy has to be perfect? Or it is just that when you don't like someone, you can always pick something wrong to criticize? A man in charge WILL always has mistakes because he makes decisions. The only guy who has no mistake is the guy has done nothing.

Just assume we are in a world there is no Phil era. Mills was the prez in 14/15, and he didn't do any Phil's mistakes like trading away those old Knicks.

He kept Melo, shump, JR Smith, THjr and Chandler for the current price. Of course the team would not win 4th pick.

Melo (125mil / 5yrs)
Shump (40mil / 4yrs)
JR Smith (57mil / 4yrs)
THjr (71mil/ 4yrs)
Chandler ( 57mil/ 4yrs)

So you really like these team more? It would be 7 or 8 seed and first round exit every year. So what actually Phil Jackson has RUINED? (oh maybe our mental health. I give you that )

The only one who can complain is Melo. Phil wasted his prime but again, Melo should take a lot of responsibility as well. He was the leader, he should have led by example like playing better defense.

He was one of the worst at free agent signings and trades in my lifetime but he did draft well. With drafting, it's such a small sample of decisions that there is no way to know if that is luck, skill, or both, though.

Hyperbole in full effect

Did you already forget the likes of eddy curry and mcdyess

And who do you have in mind other than Noah

And why is the sample size any better for trades than drafts

If you include Early, Thanasis and Lou his drafting gets a bit closer to mediocre. Also, his ability to accidentally tank when he thought he had playoff caliber rosters is being disregarded as a fault at roster assembly and being seen as strength in drafting.
In regards to trading, he is the only exec that I am aware of that lets everyone know he is done with a player, trashes their character and then goes out to see what the market is for that player.

I also am a bit surprised that some are giving him credit for Melo leaving. Phil gave Melo a horrible contract witha huge trade kicker and a NTC. That was all on Phil. His boy Charlie Rosen said this so passing the blame onto Dolan for Phil's mistake is wrong.

Crush I usually respect your posts but to call his drafting mediocre based on 2d round busts is just wrong. He has done better in the second w Willy and Dotson and baker as udfa than some teams did with their first

He made a mistake w the ntc and arguably signing him( though hinspdsight is always 20-20. I confess I thought it was a good idea at time). He certainly gets credit for getting rid of him. I fu,you expect they had private conversations and. Nothing happened so he went public

He never trashed his character. That's just false. He said the ball stuck to his hands too long and he'd be better off elsewhere. Both of which were true

You've raised many legitimate criticisms of Phil but these are not.

Phil is old school. He believes that players of Melo talent can get better if put in right system and better coaching and guidance.
He believed that triangle can make Melo a pure man Jordan or Kobe. He could not imagine that man can take money and comfort over greatness.
He believed same about Rose and was thinking that Noah character will bring his game back in right system.
In reality Rose never had any brain and Noah has no gas left in the tank even with steroids.
He believed that Fisher is his soldier and has some brain to be a coach and is at least a decent person. Contrary Fisher is just another nut job after his player carrier ended.
Non of Phil reality was real, non of the things he imagined were meant to be.
The rest of thing he did for Knicks were heady bbal moves.
Phil failed himself but did not failed the Knicks.
Melo failed Knicks but never failed himself.

Very true. I agree. Phil might have failed Melo, but he didn't hurt Knicks at all. (Well, I don't think Noah is bad actually. He is a good teacher, and he indirectly stops Mills doing stupid things because he eats away the caps. )

blkexec wrote:Whoever said we would be better right now with melo and no triangle needs mental help. But seriously.... when ur star player gives 100 percent effort on both ends. and coming off a 40 or game.. he still passed the ball to Frank at the right time.

If that was melo.....frank would be been looked off......melo would be drove and got fouled.

But enough of that. if we make the playoffs and melo doesn't.... they will blame it on the west coast competition. But they will make the playoffs.....Even if Westbrook has to take over every game.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:Whoever said we would be better right now with melo and no triangle needs mental help. But seriously.... when ur star player gives 100 percent effort on both ends. and coming off a 40 or game.. he still passed the ball to Frank at the right time.

If that was melo.....frank would be been looked off......melo would be drove and got fouled.

But enough of that. if we make the playoffs and melo doesn't.... they will blame it on the west coast competition. But they will make the playoffs.....Even if Westbrook has to take over every game.

this. Truthfully i dont even think about him anymore. Its obvious the trade was the best thing for this organization

Gudris wrote:

Uptown wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I don't think we can make the playoffs.
KP has never had a fully healthy season and I question if he can have one. He will miss some time, and when he does, we won't win more than 1 or 2 in 10 games. We're a .500 team if KP can keep this up all season, which will make him a MVP at season's end if we make it into the playoffs.

So I think all it says about Melo is that Phil was right, Melo caused a ton of the ball stopping and lack of teamwork issues. However Melo can also be a team player and he would have fit with this current team. What made last year's team truly despicably selfish was the combination of Melo and Rose. Two of them had zero chemistry and they never really looked to pass first.

Plus we were forced to run an offense that didn't fit the personnel we had/have.

We still run Some Triangle and lots of post ups. KP's game is much more evolved. We actually now have two great post players. Kanter in the low post. KP in the midrange and midpost. Both know how to play with their back to the basket.

I think it makes a huge difference when you have these changes.

1)KP with a back to the basket midrange and mid post game, Kanter with a low post game.
2)A point guard that looks to pass first like Jack vs Rose who was scoring and not looking to pass.
3)A perimeter player no longer there that isolated and held the ball for long stretches and stalled the offense.

We're a better team with less talent because of those things. KP finally developed some moves closer to the basket and realizes how to shoot over smalls now. Melo isn't holding the ball and stalling the offense. Arguably the biggest difference is Rose. Rose was like a cancer. I liked his scoring, but man, watching how Jack and Frank play is so refreshing.

Interesting points. I brought this up on another thread. First let me start by saying it was best for Knicks to move on from Melo and see if KP can be the franchise player. Also think, all sides involved are better off for doing so. We also picked up a huge difference maker this year in Kanter.

However, some will make it about ONE players short comings as oppose to what is so obvious.

1) NOT ONE PLAYER liked the Triangle. Just look at what all players said about the system. Just look at how methodical everyone looked. The amount of PnR's we are doing, Double high posts and weaves is more in one game than all of last year.
2) Phil created a BAD enviroment. KP didnt go to exit meeting because of it.
3) We had NO guard fascilitator. Rose is making a LBJ team lack luster. Jack has been huge getting everyone involved.
4) We were not as deep. We have a starting center that is averaging ticks short of a double double. We have a 7'3 guy that is playing like a 7'3 star with his post up game. We have Jack who is a point guard that is focused/capable of creating like a PG should. Not a Jose or Sasha or Rose type. If you looked at our second unit of Sasha, Baker, LT (as the best player) and a inconsistent KO, we were not competitive. More like D league.

But okay. Lets look at Melo as the culprit and major reason for our 4-4 start.

Fist complaint- High Usage and does not share the ball. Ok. KP is ranked number 4 in the ENTIRE league in usage! He had 0 assists last night and close to going under 1 per game. So what, No one cares and it did not affect our wins. Oh and did we forget DadMelo? Did that change the losing? Melo lead in assists two out of the three Phil years.

Second. Our defense got better and he ALONE was the cause of our issues. OK. we are allowing 105 points per game. Better than last year but not exactly shutting teams down. While OKC was second before last nights games. And allowing 96.4. Who is on their team now? Oh and BTW Melo ranked 39 in defense so far this year!! Timmy 122!! Is my point that he is a good defender. Absolutely not. But by the rational of guys on here taking numbers into account, he would considered so.

Again, my ONLY point about Melo or any other of our players that get blamed for losing is that its not just ONE GUY that makes or breaks a team. For a team to be as bad as we were, you need a bad coach, bad GM, bad PRez, bad offensive and defensive systems and BAD PLAYERS. Saying its just one guy is just a spoiled FAN's way of blaming someone for the fact he lost his bragging rights at work and cant wear his over sized/over priced jersey anymore. Maybe its just guys that did not learn the "Scapegoat" premise or never actually played sports at any level. Because anyone that has played sports before, knows that it takes a whole team of players to get a win. In basketball it takes a minimum of 10.

My analogy of how unrealistic this is. Lets say Knicks dont make the playoffs this year but KP averages over 30. Do you blame him? Lets say he wins 54 next year, has a MVP type year, we make the playoffs but lose in the conference finals. Do you blame just him? Lets say the team struggles the following year and the FO decide to bring in a Prez to clean house but that Prez puts a bunch of D leaguers around him and we look like ****. Do you blame him? Will you pick on his usage rates and his assists to justify a trade? I wouldn't.

I am glad that Melo has moved on. Glad we are looking good and beating some teams. Glad KP has changed his game and playing more inside the arc. Glad we have guys like Kanter. But to say a TEAMS success is due to changing ONE player and not ALL the things mentioned above?

Great Post!!!!!

Dont agree, sometimes one player can poison all teams game and mental aproach, if Melo was a real leader he could win despite all you said above.

Last I checked, basketball is a team game. KP (the guy who couldn't win more than 2 games without Melo on the floor) is now enjoying the benefits of a real pass first point guard, a rookie phenom who's coming into his own defensively (a backcourt player on the Knicks who PLAYS DEFENSE, imagine that) and a rebounding monster playing alongside him. He's also being supported by a version of KOQ who's bringing it every night, and a SG/SF who can drop 20 in a heartbeat.

But, yeah it's all Melo's fault and his special brand of poison. I completely agree. SMFH.

What I think reflects poorly on Melo is that the Knicks are actually enjoyable to watch. Everyone is involved.

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Think about it this way - for 6 years Melo apologists and trolls have told us the he holds the ball and doesn't pass because he never had anyone around him worth passing to.
Now that he has two all stars around him with a complement of players that can win it all his assist numbers have been cut from 2.8 per game to 1.9 per game.

Even with a elite team around him, he is a net negative player (BPM = - 0.5) with a VORP of 0.1 - which essentially means his "performance" is exactly equal to the average replacement player. But the trolls will tell you he deserves all of his $25M - being a player of his "stature". I am sure he is playing even worse because of the residual effects of having to play the triangle for half a season last year, yeah that must be it.

That's all you need to know about Queen Melo and the trolls of the round table.

Yeah. Why don't you go back to your old user name from 6 years ago?

Posters who would never STFU about Melo, EVER. Calling other posters "trolls". Now Ive heard everything.

How about posters who never STFU about Phil, EVER? Thoughts on those? At least I don't build a web of hypocrisy to hide behind. I hate Melo and what he did to the Knicks - never claimed otherwise.

No, you just stand behind your own version of revisionist history and think hate is a statistical entity to bolster your posts. Good job though. You are stunningly consistent.

Wow, I don't even have to post about Melo anymore. I can just wait for your posts to respond to! Thanks!