mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Then media will turn it into Phil's fault. Sure he won 11 champions but who cares?

Certainly not me. I don't care how many rings he brought to other cities as a coach. He gave us KP. That is great. Then he put guys like Melo and Rose on the floor who interfered with KP's development and the team's winning.

And draft picks, cap rooms, Willy, and Frank.

We don't have to worship this dude, and we have to give him credit for what he has done. Look at this way, IF Mills just copies what Phil had done, like draft another KP, Willy and Frank and keep picks and caps, then it would be stunning success.

He was being forced out by political reasons, and he was rejected by media and fans by cultural reasons. The day Mills and Gaines laughed on Melo's training video and people said nothing, I suddenly realized something. If it was Phil and Rambis, it would be another national news. We were not fair, probably we never are.

Jmpasq wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Then media will turn it into Phil's fault. Sure he won 11 champions but who cares?

Certainly not me. I don't care how many rings he brought to other cities as a coach. He gave us KP. That is great. Then he put guys like Melo and Rose on the floor who interfered with KP's development and the team's winning.

And draft picks, cap rooms, Willy, and Frank.

We don't have to worship this dude, and we have to give him credit for what he has done. Look at this way, IF Mills just copies what Phil had done, like draft another KP, Willy and Frank and keep picks and caps, then it would be stunning success.

He was being forced out by political reasons, and he was rejected by media and fans by cultural reasons. The day Mills and Gaines laughed on Melo's training video and people said nothing, I suddenly realized something. If it was Phil and Rambis, it would be another national news. We were not fair, probably we never are.

We don't really have cap room. Unless we stretch Noah I don't really see how this team attracts another top tier FA. This team really needed a star SF to be a true contender long-term but it looks like we will win to many games to get the piece we need

We had until we signed THjr. It was Mills. If THjr is good, it is all Mills. This is why I think the cap problem is Mills' too.

Even Mills traded Willy and Frank for second Bargnani, it is still Phil's credit. It is snapshot.

Again I didn't say it is right to sign Noah, but Phil was brave enough to do so just probably because he knew he would have cap room this summer. It was his backup plan. If D. Rose didn't work. Phil thought he still could walk away.

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Then media will turn it into Phil's fault. Sure he won 11 champions but who cares?

Certainly not me. I don't care how many rings he brought to other cities as a coach. He gave us KP. That is great. Then he put guys like Melo and Rose on the floor who interfered with KP's development and the team's winning.

And draft picks, cap rooms, Willy, and Frank.

We don't have to worship this dude, and we have to give him credit for what he has done. Look at this way, IF Mills just copies what Phil had done,..

He'll give huge contracts to bad players that interfere with our young players' development. And he'll force an outdated offense that brings out the worst in all players. Be thankful we don't have a president who mocks the offensive approach of the Warriors.

Sure he has done something wrong. It is just like you watch fox it is Clinton, you watch CNN it is trump, but is it really important that the guy has to be perfect? Or it is just that when you don't like someone, you can always pick something wrong to criticize? A man in charge WILL always has mistakes because he makes decisions. The only guy who has no mistake is the guy has done nothing.

Just assume we are in a world there is no Phil era. Mills was the prez in 14/15, and he didn't do any Phil's mistakes like trading away those old Knicks.

He kept Melo, shump, JR Smith, THjr and Chandler for the current price. Of course the team would not win 4th pick.

Melo (125mil / 5yrs)
Shump (40mil / 4yrs)
JR Smith (57mil / 4yrs)
THjr (71mil/ 4yrs)
Chandler ( 57mil/ 4yrs)

So you really like these team more? It would be 7 or 8 seed and first round exit every year. So what actually Phil Jackson has RUINED? (oh maybe our mental health. I give you that )

The only one who can complain is Melo. Phil wasted his prime but again, Melo should take a lot of responsibility as well. He was the leader, he should have led by example like playing better defense.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Then media will turn it into Phil's fault. Sure he won 11 champions but who cares?

Certainly not me. I don't care how many rings he brought to other cities as a coach. He gave us KP. That is great. Then he put guys like Melo and Rose on the floor who interfered with KP's development and the team's winning.

And draft picks, cap rooms, Willy, and Frank.

We don't have to worship this dude, and we have to give him credit for what he has done. Look at this way, IF Mills just copies what Phil had done,..

He'll give huge contracts to bad players that interfere with our young players' development. And he'll force an outdated offense that brings out the worst in all players. Be thankful we don't have a president who mocks the offensive approach of the Warriors.

Sure he has done something wrong. It is just like you watch fox it is Clinton, you watch CNN it is trump, but is it really important that the guy has to be perfect? Or it is just that when you don't like someone, you can always pick something wrong to criticize? A man in charge WILL always has mistakes because he makes decisions. The only guy who has no mistake is the guy has done nothing.

Just assume we are in a world there is no Phil era. Mills was the prez in 14/15, and he didn't do any Phil's mistakes like trading away those old Knicks.

He kept Melo, shump, JR Smith, THjr and Chandler for the current price. Of course the team would not win 4th pick.

Melo (125mil / 5yrs)
Shump (40mil / 4yrs)
JR Smith (57mil / 4yrs)
THjr (71mil/ 4yrs)
Chandler ( 57mil/ 4yrs)

So you really like these team more? It would be 7 or 8 seed and first round exit every year. So what actually Phil Jackson has RUINED? (oh maybe our mental health. I give you that )

The only one who can complain is Melo. Phil wasted his prime but again, Melo should take a lot of responsibility as well. He was the leader, he should have led by example like playing better defense.

He was one of the worst at free agent signings and trades in my lifetime but he did draft well. With drafting, it's such a small sample of decisions that there is no way to know if that is luck, skill, or both, though.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I don't think we can make the playoffs.
KP has never had a fully healthy season and I question if he can have one. He will miss some time, and when he does, we won't win more than 1 or 2 in 10 games. We're a .500 team if KP can keep this up all season, which will make him a MVP at season's end if we make it into the playoffs.

So I think all it says about Melo is that Phil was right, Melo caused a ton of the ball stopping and lack of teamwork issues. However Melo can also be a team player and he would have fit with this current team. What made last year's team truly despicably selfish was the combination of Melo and Rose. Two of them had zero chemistry and they never really looked to pass first.

Plus we were forced to run an offense that didn't fit the personnel we had/have.

We still run Some Triangle and lots of post ups. KP's game is much more evolved. We actually now have two great post players. Kanter in the low post. KP in the midrange and midpost. Both know how to play with their back to the basket.

I think it makes a huge difference when you have these changes.

1)KP with a back to the basket midrange and mid post game, Kanter with a low post game.
2)A point guard that looks to pass first like Jack vs Rose who was scoring and not looking to pass.
3)A perimeter player no longer there that isolated and held the ball for long stretches and stalled the offense.

We're a better team with less talent because of those things. KP finally developed some moves closer to the basket and realizes how to shoot over smalls now. Melo isn't holding the ball and stalling the offense. Arguably the biggest difference is Rose. Rose was like a cancer. I liked his scoring, but man, watching how Jack and Frank play is so refreshing.

Interesting points. I brought this up on another thread. First let me start by saying it was best for Knicks to move on from Melo and see if KP can be the franchise player. Also think, all sides involved are better off for doing so. We also picked up a huge difference maker this year in Kanter.

However, some will make it about ONE players short comings as oppose to what is so obvious.

1) NOT ONE PLAYER liked the Triangle. Just look at what all players said about the system. Just look at how methodical everyone looked. The amount of PnR's we are doing, Double high posts and weaves is more in one game than all of last year.
2) Phil created a BAD enviroment. KP didnt go to exit meeting because of it.
3) We had NO guard fascilitator. Rose is making a LBJ team lack luster. Jack has been huge getting everyone involved.
4) We were not as deep. We have a starting center that is averaging ticks short of a double double. We have a 7'3 guy that is playing like a 7'3 star with his post up game. We have Jack who is a point guard that is focused/capable of creating like a PG should. Not a Jose or Sasha or Rose type. If you looked at our second unit of Sasha, Baker, LT (as the best player) and a inconsistent KO, we were not competitive. More like D league.

But okay. Lets look at Melo as the culprit and major reason for our 4-4 start.

Fist complaint- High Usage and does not share the ball. Ok. KP is ranked number 4 in the ENTIRE league in usage! He had 0 assists last night and close to going under 1 per game. So what, No one cares and it did not affect our wins. Oh and did we forget DadMelo? Did that change the losing? Melo lead in assists two out of the three Phil years.

Second. Our defense got better and he ALONE was the cause of our issues. OK. we are allowing 105 points per game. Better than last year but not exactly shutting teams down. While OKC was second before last nights games. And allowing 96.4. Who is on their team now? Oh and BTW Melo ranked 39 in defense so far this year!! Timmy 122!! Is my point that he is a good defender. Absolutely not. But by the rational of guys on here taking numbers into account, he would considered so.

Again, my ONLY point about Melo or any other of our players that get blamed for losing is that its not just ONE GUY that makes or breaks a team. For a team to be as bad as we were, you need a bad coach, bad GM, bad PRez, bad offensive and defensive systems and BAD PLAYERS. Saying its just one guy is just a spoiled FAN's way of blaming someone for the fact he lost his bragging rights at work and cant wear his over sized/over priced jersey anymore. Maybe its just guys that did not learn the "Scapegoat" premise or never actually played sports at any level. Because anyone that has played sports before, knows that it takes a whole team of players to get a win. In basketball it takes a minimum of 10.

My analogy of how unrealistic this is. Lets say Knicks dont make the playoffs this year but KP averages over 30. Do you blame him? Lets say he wins 54 next year, has a MVP type year, we make the playoffs but lose in the conference finals. Do you blame just him? Lets say the team struggles the following year and the FO decide to bring in a Prez to clean house but that Prez puts a bunch of D leaguers around him and we look like ****. Do you blame him? Will you pick on his usage rates and his assists to justify a trade? I wouldn't.

I am glad that Melo has moved on. Glad we are looking good and beating some teams. Glad KP has changed his game and playing more inside the arc. Glad we have guys like Kanter. But to say a TEAMS success is due to changing ONE player and not ALL the things mentioned above?

dude.. this is like fake news to distract from one thing. KP gives full effort on both ends. Melo did not play defense and he refused to stop holding the ball. Why does everyone say "now we can focus on defense every night"

Its happening. Youve been to the games. That effort was there last year. Starts with the alpha guy. KP is complaining a bit too much but thats part of NBA politics. He needs to get his calls. But he's flying around on defense giving it 100%. If you cant see that as where everything starts its because you dont want to

Whats happening? We have better players? We have 7'3 guy finally posting up? We have a double double center. A good bench? A good PG fascilitator? Yes. What does that have to do with my post and this thread? My post was on why Melo ,not being here, is the biggest reason for this years success. 4 amd 4. Last year we 16 and 16 at years end?

Btw. Funny. So KP plays both sides but you fail to mention his usage rate? Which you had no problem mentioning, at nauseam, with Melo. You fail to mention KP's rebounding as a 7'3 guy, and his lack of sharing ball, which you also always do when talking about Melo? Which btw. I don't thinks matters when your winning. But goes to show my point how fans are so inconsistent with their logic.

Like I said above. will never agree with guys that blame one player for a teams losing. Just a simple FAN sided argument. One that is usually filled with hater aid. Listed several meaningful impacts as well. But we have discussed this too many times. Time to move on. As parties in either side of the argument can never be convinced to change their stance. So enjoy your Saturday Fish. Looking forward to tomorrow's game.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:

Welpee wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I don't think we can make the playoffs.
KP has never had a fully healthy season and I question if he can have one. He will miss some time, and when he does, we won't win more than 1 or 2 in 10 games. We're a .500 team if KP can keep this up all season, which will make him a MVP at season's end if we make it into the playoffs.

So I think all it says about Melo is that Phil was right, Melo caused a ton of the ball stopping and lack of teamwork issues. However Melo can also be a team player and he would have fit with this current team. What made last year's team truly despicably selfish was the combination of Melo and Rose. Two of them had zero chemistry and they never really looked to pass first.

Plus we were forced to run an offense that didn't fit the personnel we had/have.

We still run Some Triangle and lots of post ups. KP's game is much more evolved. We actually now have two great post players. Kanter in the low post. KP in the midrange and midpost. Both know how to play with their back to the basket.

I think it makes a huge difference when you have these changes.

1)KP with a back to the basket midrange and mid post game, Kanter with a low post game.
2)A point guard that looks to pass first like Jack vs Rose who was scoring and not looking to pass.
3)A perimeter player no longer there that isolated and held the ball for long stretches and stalled the offense.

We're a better team with less talent because of those things. KP finally developed some moves closer to the basket and realizes how to shoot over smalls now. Melo isn't holding the ball and stalling the offense. Arguably the biggest difference is Rose. Rose was like a cancer. I liked his scoring, but man, watching how Jack and Frank play is so refreshing.

Interesting points. I brought this up on another thread. First let me start by saying it was best for Knicks to move on from Melo and see if KP can be the franchise player. Also think, all sides involved are better off for doing so. We also picked up a huge difference maker this year in Kanter.

However, some will make it about ONE players short comings as oppose to what is so obvious.

1) NOT ONE PLAYER liked the Triangle. Just look at what all players said about the system. Just look at how methodical everyone looked. The amount of PnR's we are doing, Double high posts and weaves is more in one game than all of last year.
2) Phil created a BAD enviroment. KP didnt go to exit meeting because of it.
3) We had NO guard fascilitator. Rose is making a LBJ team lack luster. Jack has been huge getting everyone involved.
4) We were not as deep. We have a starting center that is averaging ticks short of a double double. We have a 7'3 guy that is playing like a 7'3 star with his post up game. We have Jack who is a point guard that is focused/capable of creating like a PG should. Not a Jose or Sasha or Rose type. If you looked at our second unit of Sasha, Baker, LT (as the best player) and a inconsistent KO, we were not competitive. More like D league.

But okay. Lets look at Melo as the culprit and major reason for our 4-4 start.

Fist complaint- High Usage and does not share the ball. Ok. KP is ranked number 4 in the ENTIRE league in usage! He had 0 assists last night and close to going under 1 per game. So what, No one cares and it did not affect our wins. Oh and did we forget DadMelo? Did that change the losing? Melo lead in assists two out of the three Phil years.

Second. Our defense got better and he ALONE was the cause of our issues. OK. we are allowing 105 points per game. Better than last year but not exactly shutting teams down. While OKC was second before last nights games. And allowing 96.4. Who is on their team now? Oh and BTW Melo ranked 39 in defense so far this year!! Timmy 122!! Is my point that he is a good defender. Absolutely not. But by the rational of guys on here taking numbers into account, he would considered so.

Again, my ONLY point about Melo or any other of our players that get blamed for losing is that its not just ONE GUY that makes or breaks a team. For a team to be as bad as we were, you need a bad coach, bad GM, bad PRez, bad offensive and defensive systems and BAD PLAYERS. Saying its just one guy is just a spoiled FAN's way of blaming someone for the fact he lost his bragging rights at work and cant wear his over sized/over priced jersey anymore. Maybe its just guys that did not learn the "Scapegoat" premise or never actually played sports at any level. Because anyone that has played sports before, knows that it takes a whole team of players to get a win. In basketball it takes a minimum of 10.

My analogy of how unrealistic this is. Lets say Knicks dont make the playoffs this year but KP averages over 30. Do you blame him? Lets say he wins 54 next year, has a MVP type year, we make the playoffs but lose in the conference finals. Do you blame just him? Lets say the team struggles the following year and the FO decide to bring in a Prez to clean house but that Prez puts a bunch of D leaguers around him and we look like ****. Do you blame him? Will you pick on his usage rates and his assists to justify a trade? I wouldn't.

I am glad that Melo has moved on. Glad we are looking good and beating some teams. Glad KP has changed his game and playing more inside the arc. Glad we have guys like Kanter. But to say a TEAMS success is due to changing ONE player and not ALL the things mentioned above?

dude.. this is like fake news to distract from one thing. KP gives full effort on both ends. Melo did not play defense and he refused to stop holding the ball. Why does everyone say "now we can focus on defense every night"

Its happening. Youve been to the games. That effort was there last year. Starts with the alpha guy. KP is complaining a bit too much but thats part of NBA politics. He needs to get his calls. But he's flying around on defense giving it 100%. If you cant see that as where everything starts its because you dont want to

Whats happening? We have better players? We have 7'3 guy finally posting up? We have a double double center. A good bench? A good PG fascilitator? Yes. What does that have to do with my post and this thread? My post was on why Melo ,not being here, is the biggest reason for this years success. 4 amd 4. Last year we 16 and 16 at years end?

Btw. Funny. So KP plays both sides but you fail to mention his usage rate? Which you had no problem mentioning, at nauseam, with Melo. You fail to mention KP's rebounding as a 7'3 guy, and his lack of sharing ball, which you also always do when talking about Melo? Which btw. I don't thinks matters when your winning. But goes to show my point how fans are so inconsistent with their logic.

Like I said above. will never agree with guys that blame one player for a teams losing. Just a simple FAN sided argument. One that is usually filled with hater aid. Listed several meaningful impacts as well. But we have discussed this too many times. Time to move on. As parties in either side of the argument can never be convinced to change their stance. So enjoy your Saturday Fish. Looking forward to tomorrow's game.

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Then media will turn it into Phil's fault. Sure he won 11 champions but who cares?

Certainly not me. I don't care how many rings he brought to other cities as a coach. He gave us KP. That is great. Then he put guys like Melo and Rose on the floor who interfered with KP's development and the team's winning.

And draft picks, cap rooms, Willy, and Frank.

We don't have to worship this dude, and we have to give him credit for what he has done. Look at this way, IF Mills just copies what Phil had done,..

He'll give huge contracts to bad players that interfere with our young players' development. And he'll force an outdated offense that brings out the worst in all players. Be thankful we don't have a president who mocks the offensive approach of the Warriors.

Sure he has done something wrong. It is just like you watch fox it is Clinton, you watch CNN it is trump, but is it really important that the guy has to be perfect? Or it is just that when you don't like someone, you can always pick something wrong to criticize? A man in charge WILL always has mistakes because he makes decisions. The only guy who has no mistake is the guy has done nothing.

Just assume we are in a world there is no Phil era. Mills was the prez in 14/15, and he didn't do any Phil's mistakes like trading away those old Knicks.

He kept Melo, shump, JR Smith, THjr and Chandler for the current price. Of course the team would not win 4th pick.

Melo (125mil / 5yrs)
Shump (40mil / 4yrs)
JR Smith (57mil / 4yrs)
THjr (71mil/ 4yrs)
Chandler ( 57mil/ 4yrs)

So you really like these team more? It would be 7 or 8 seed and first round exit every year. So what actually Phil Jackson has RUINED? (oh maybe our mental health. I give you that )

The only one who can complain is Melo. Phil wasted his prime but again, Melo should take a lot of responsibility as well. He was the leader, he should have led by example like playing better defense.

He was one of the worst at free agent signings and trades in my lifetime but he did draft well. With drafting, it's such a small sample of decisions that there is no way to know if that is luck, skill, or both, though.

Actually you have to keep your cool and think of that.

Ropez was a FA and Lee was a FA, and sure Noah was a FA too.

There were some good, and there were some bad. It is far from "the worst".

I don't really think Noah's contact was worse than A'mare. A'mare was a better player and had a better year but he was paid much more in much smaller cap rooms.

Even in last season, I think those two guys Lakers have signed were much worse.

Again, I am no here to pretend Phil is all good. He made a lot of mistakes, but we have to judge fairly.

I don't really super care if he did it because he was smart or luck. The most important part is that he did it, and I am really happy we now have KP (hopefully he will fire his brother very soon), Willy and Frank.

In this way, probably we can just look at it that Phil was like Hinkie. Their fans know who to thank, and probably we should too.

At last, everything we complain about Phil actually is not lasting(except Noah), and it is only thing he has done wrong for our future. I don't know why he signed him even though Noah was old Noah. We already had KP, Quinn, and Willy.

If you do not like his personality, it is all fine. It is understandable.

nykshaknbake wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Well, the hate is still strong. Then we can just wait a year and see if it will change.

Time will make everything clear.

Btw, no one said he have done no wrong, just a lot of guys are trying super hard to pretend he has done nothing right. If you say you forgot who re-signed Melo, I tell you it was Phil, the same guys draft KP and other young core and keep caps and picks.

If you still tries that hard to ignore what he has done, it will not discredit someone has already won 13 rings. You just show you are biased. IF next few years Mills drafted another cornerstone and kept picks and cap, everything he would have done wrong would be forgotten, for the reason it is the hardest part.

Anyway, Phil is gone for good. He will not be back, and actually I really don't think any famous name will come here in future. Here is where people's careers die. Sure no-name will try his luck, but famous one like Jerry West probably won't take the risk. The owner is unstable, the fans are very hostile if you do not do everything the players want, and your right-hand man installed by the owner thinks of taking your place everyday.

I mean, if you were a prez/GM/coach, would you want to work for Knicks? The pay is little higher, but your name will always be ruined. The only guy who could survive is MDA. I'd rather go elsewhere for a longer career.

We are just too hostile and ungraceful, and actually it sounds like we are proud of it.

He won his rings as a coach not a GM. He just didn't do. A good job here. I don't know why his victories in a different job at a different company would input into this.

What the heck is keeping cap?

I also think it's stupid that anyone is credited for not trading draft picks. That's the default way most GMs operate. If you trade them for crap it's a discredit. If you don't you're doing what everyone expects.

Not trading away picks is not something easy. We think it is easy because we are fans. If we were gm/prez then we should have known it takes a lot of mental strength to do so.

Think about that. Your job is on the line and you are judged by your win/loss and then your superstar asks you to get more help , otherwise his media friends/brother will not be very happy. Then, what are you going to do? Still keep the pick and eat 17, 32, 31 wins and got fired like a man? ORRRRRR

Just trade away your future picks and make your win/loss better and your superstar happier? The future GM will hate you but why would you care? You can always hint it is all Dolan's fault - He forced your hand. And very soon you will have another job elsewhere because of your better win/loss.

I mean, we are all adults, right? We all need to work, right? We should know better than that. What Phil has done is not easy, it is super hard, and I bet you would trade away picks like candy if your career, everything you worked hard for, was on the line.

nyknickzingis wrote:I don't get the Phil was horrible arguments.

Willy/O'Quinn
Porzingis/Thomas
Kuz
Lee/Dotson
Frank/Baker

And got Melo so hot and bothered that he accepted to move on and let NY rebuild.

Phil's main problem was his poor relationship with the media and his meddling with the coaching staff's offensive playbook. I don't think he was nearly as bad a GM as fans make him out to be.

Who is the best young developing scorer in the league? It may well be KP and Giannis. We have KP.
Who is the best young defensive guard prospect in the league? One of them is definitely Frank.
Who is a 5 man shooting 68.8 percent and shows McHale like moves in the post? Willy.
Who is one of the best backups in the league right now at 5? O'Quinn.

Solid team guys as vets in Lance Thomas, CLee.

I don't know why everyone hated the job Phil did so much. Looking back at the last 20 years, Phil's 3 years were the best job anyone ever did over that time, if you look at the big picture and grand scheme of things. Did anyone else get us Porzingis like talent? Frank like talent at 8? Willy like talent in the second round? Most of all, actually convince Dolan to rebuild around a young team with no big names or stars? Come on, what Phil did was exactly what this team needed for yeons. If he could keep his mouth shut and not push the Triangle on the coaching staff, he'd still be here.