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Target next year
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GustavBahler
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Joined: 7/12/2010
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10/25/2017  9:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/25/2017  9:11 PM
Just started developing pain in my hip for the first time. I can only imagine what it has been like for Thomas to play with that injury. Thomas is a real talent, lots of heart, but thats another player who raises red flags. Too much money to be throwing at a player who cant even play right now.

If the Knicks were to go after an injured player, would want it to be Fulz. Philly sounds like they aren't phased by the injury though. Hopefully Frank gives us the right answers on the court.

AUTOADVERT
KNICKSBIGCATS
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10/25/2017  9:33 PM
It's obvious that the Knicks plan is to tank this year and grab a high lottery player.
Anyone who watched the game vs. the Celtics last night can see that.
They're showcasing Kanter and Lee and both will likely be gone at the trade deadline.

Signing IT even if he's ruled healthy is a poor move IMHO.
It's what the Knicks have been doing forever. Wrong move.

I'd much rather see the Knicks put KP on the block and see who comes knocking.
I'd take a haul of draft picks for him (he's Scott Bradley II) in a heartbeat.
Tank again in 2018.
Then hire a smart coach like Stevens and build a young team with a new system with all the picks.
It would be just like the Knicks to play KP too many minutes, watch him break down and then watch him bolt for greener pastures at the end of his rookie contract. Mark my words.

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships." -Michael Jordan
BRIGGS
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10/25/2017  10:14 PM
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:It's obvious that the Knicks plan is to tank this year and grab a high lottery player.
Anyone who watched the game vs. the Celtics last night can see that.
They're showcasing Kanter and Lee and both will likely be gone at the trade deadline.

Signing IT even if he's ruled healthy is a poor move IMHO.
It's what the Knicks have been doing forever. Wrong move.

I'd much rather see the Knicks put KP on the block and see who comes knocking.
I'd take a haul of draft picks for him (he's Scott Bradley II) in a heartbeat.
Tank again in 2018.
Then hire a smart coach like Stevens and build a young team with a new system with all the picks.
It would be just like the Knicks to play KP too many minutes, watch him break down and then watch him bolt for greener pastures at the end of his rookie contract. Mark my words.

Need to keep 1 of Willy or KP. Probably can get much more for KP. Im a big fan of Bridges--I think hes going to move way way up. If our wings turned into Bridges(trade) and Porter(pick)--what would be the need to tank again?

KNICKSBIGCATS
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10/25/2017  10:51 PM
Philly tanked for how many years and look where they're at now.
When that team learns how to play the right way together, look out.
Boston and Philly will dominate the East after the Cavs fade away.

I think that it takes at least two years of tanking
and a KP trade to clean this horrific mess up.

Briggs.....blue printing the Celtics, can you think of a college coach
to coach the Knicks going forward?

"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships." -Michael Jordan
BRIGGS
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10/25/2017  11:11 PM
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:Philly tanked for how many years and look where they're at now.
When that team learns how to play the right way together, look out.
Boston and Philly will dominate the East after the Cavs fade away.

I think that it takes at least two years of tanking
and a KP trade to clean this horrific mess up.

Briggs.....blue printing the Celtics, can you think of a college coach
to coach the Knicks going forward?

Gregg Marshall

TripleThreat
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10/26/2017  1:49 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Yeah the two years he was with the Cs they avg 50+ wins--we dont need a loser like that! ECF we havent had a player lead us to the ECF in 20 years. And Boston wasnt even that good! If hes healthy--hes a no brainer!

OK, Briggs, will try something different here.

Let's say you and I were co-GMs of an NBA franchise, and the owner pulled the trigger on a IT2 signing at a four year max without our/my personal green light on the decision. But he's the owner, so he can make that kind of call.

If my job was the defend the decision from a perception standpoint, this is what I would do

A) I would see if the Cavs would take a sign and trade for Tim Hardaway Jr. This would require THJr to actually play decently for the rest of the season moving forward. Would the Cavs take him? I don't know, but it would beat losing an asset (IT2) for nothing. At least THJr would be healthy, whereas IT2 would be a constant injury risk

B) In the current CBA, incentive escalators in a contract can only be cap friendly if they are "Not Likely To Be Earned/Performed" benchmarks. The max should hover around 15 percent, there is some push and pull to this based on service time and recent injury history of the player in question, but a series of mutual vesting team/player options could mitigate the risk some.

C) Under the new Chris Bosh Rule, I'd see how feasible it would be to shed the contract entirely aka Chris Bosh and Miami, if IT2 would so severely injured that he could never play again. It's still a massive risk, but a potential out might exist.

D) IT2 played under Hornacek before, so keeping Hornacek would have to be part and parcel of the situation in place.

That would be it. That would as defensible as I can make it given a true no choice situation.

The arguments I laid out above are simply going to be more effective than the ones you are using. Two years in a pro sports timeline is forever. George Seifert won a Super Bowl with the 49ers in 94 and lost his job to a college coach with no pro experience two years later. Two years is a LONG time.


Briggs you have to find compelling reasons to taking in IT2 while factoring in his injury in all cases of scenarios, not just the most ideal one possible.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
TripleThreat
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10/26/2017  2:15 AM
dacash wrote:was reading poasting and roasting they mentioned Derrick favours as perfect pf/c to prozingus pf/c who knows about him?


Favors is valuable because he's a plus defender who can defend the rim and actually, from time to time, in specific spots, play out on the wing. He's very rangy for his size, and his skill set is pretty unique. He has a nice touch around the rim and is a high effort/max effort type player.

The downside is he will choke up your floor spacing ( can't hit the three ball) and has become injury prone.

He can help Zinger in that depending on the matchups, Zinger could shift from becoming a Stretch 4 at times without rim protection responsibilities, then to a traditional pivot with his back to the basket. Favors would be really interesting with Thibs in Minnesota from a defensive standpoint.

Odds are though, he'll never be healthy.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
BRIGGS
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10/26/2017  10:10 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Yeah the two years he was with the Cs they avg 50+ wins--we dont need a loser like that! ECF we havent had a player lead us to the ECF in 20 years. And Boston wasnt even that good! If hes healthy--hes a no brainer!

OK, Briggs, will try something different here.

Let's say you and I were co-GMs of an NBA franchise, and the owner pulled the trigger on a IT2 signing at a four year max without our/my personal green light on the decision. But he's the owner, so he can make that kind of call.

If my job was the defend the decision from a perception standpoint, this is what I would do

A) I would see if the Cavs would take a sign and trade for Tim Hardaway Jr. This would require THJr to actually play decently for the rest of the season moving forward. Would the Cavs take him? I don't know, but it would beat losing an asset (IT2) for nothing. At least THJr would be healthy, whereas IT2 would be a constant injury risk

B) In the current CBA, incentive escalators in a contract can only be cap friendly if they are "Not Likely To Be Earned/Performed" benchmarks. The max should hover around 15 percent, there is some push and pull to this based on service time and recent injury history of the player in question, but a series of mutual vesting team/player options could mitigate the risk some.

C) Under the new Chris Bosh Rule, I'd see how feasible it would be to shed the contract entirely aka Chris Bosh and Miami, if IT2 would so severely injured that he could never play again. It's still a massive risk, but a potential out might exist.

D) IT2 played under Hornacek before, so keeping Hornacek would have to be part and parcel of the situation in place.

That would be it. That would as defensible as I can make it given a true no choice situation.

The arguments I laid out above are simply going to be more effective than the ones you are using. Two years in a pro sports timeline is forever. George Seifert won a Super Bowl with the 49ers in 94 and lost his job to a college coach with no pro experience two years later. Two years is a LONG time.


Briggs you have to find compelling reasons to taking in IT2 while factoring in his injury in all cases of scenarios, not just the most ideal one possible.

This whole post is extremely speculative--truly a what is scenario. Let's ee IT come back and see how he is. His career is low usage and hes a tough hombre.

So Im watching IT when he comes back
Im hoping that we can get a top 3 or best top 1 pick. I hope we have the worst record.
Im watching a lot of CBB-
Im looking to trade Kanter for picks /ending contracts --I think Id like to keep KOQ as a back up. He has toughness I like.
I will evaluate KP and Willy
If I can get rid of Lee for a shorter contract--I will do that.
Im going to get Dotson Frank and Baker extensive time --especially after the dead line

newyorker4ever
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10/26/2017  12:03 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/26/2017  12:14 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
reub wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
reub wrote:When we have a team core of KP, Willy, Luka, and Frank you’ll all look back at this season as a necessary evil that we had to endure to rebuild.

Im not sure that we will have the need to keep both KP and Willy.

They're totally different players. They can excel together.

I hear you--Im personally looking for a more athletic team--Im no longer a believer in two bigs. I like what the Cs have with Brown and Tatum. We have one of KP or Willy--the Cs do not. Both of those guys will be great C's at some point. The price we can get back for one of those guys at the appropriate time should be astronomical. Im not sure we have the right people buying groceries nor do I hear any type of strategy that would lead me to believe they will do the right thing. Long and athletic is not a strategy. I want much improved 3 point shooting, ball movers who play good disciplined basketball on both sides athletic skill players from the 3-4 we need an engine and great role players. I want to play a 4-1 set with a mobile 4

I'm actually in somewhat agreement with you on how i want this team built with what type of players and it isn't the players we have now, or at least most of the players we have now. I love both J.Brown and J.Tatum but to get guys like that you need high lottery picks. I'm not sure people understand just how much that trade Ainge made with Brooklyn for those 3 guys did for the Celtics. Pretty much every good player on that team came from assets he got in that one trade and he still has more future picks coming to that team from that one trade from using those Brooklyn picks to makes trades that brought more future draft picks to the Celtics.

I am as big a KP fan as anyone on here. I wanted him from the get go in the draft and was one of the very few that said he would produce for us year one. When Phil put it out there last year that they would listen to any trade offers for him i wanted nothing to do with it and was hoping they wouldn't trade him. Then after hearing rumors of what kind of returns we could of got for him i started thinking the opposite way and was intrigued by some of the talk of what we could get for him. I'm not convinced that he can be the type of player that can lead a team to winning a championship and think if he was say 6'10 and more of a true PF i think he would actually be a better player. What i'm getting at is that i think we should trade KP and we should do it asap and get a huge return for him in players and draft picks. Again, i'm a huge KP fan and love everything about the kid but i think we could build a better team without him and building around Frank, Willy and the rest of the young guys we have.

BRIGGS
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10/26/2017  12:28 PM
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
reub wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
reub wrote:When we have a team core of KP, Willy, Luka, and Frank you’ll all look back at this season as a necessary evil that we had to endure to rebuild.

Im not sure that we will have the need to keep both KP and Willy.

They're totally different players. They can excel together.

I hear you--Im personally looking for a more athletic team--Im no longer a believer in two bigs. I like what the Cs have with Brown and Tatum. We have one of KP or Willy--the Cs do not. Both of those guys will be great C's at some point. The price we can get back for one of those guys at the appropriate time should be astronomical. Im not sure we have the right people buying groceries nor do I hear any type of strategy that would lead me to believe they will do the right thing. Long and athletic is not a strategy. I want much improved 3 point shooting, ball movers who play good disciplined basketball on both sides athletic skill players from the 3-4 we need an engine and great role players. I want to play a 4-1 set with a mobile 4

I'm actually in somewhat agreement with you on how i want this team built with what type of players and it isn't the players we have now, or at least most of the players we have now. I love both J.Brown and J.Tatum but to get guys like that you need high lottery picks. I'm not sure people understand just how much that trade Ainge made with Brooklyn for those 3 guys did for the Celtics. Pretty much every good player on that team came from assets he got in that one trade and he still has more future picks coming to that team from that one trade from using those Brooklyn picks to makes trades that brought more future draft picks to the Celtics.

I am as big a KP fan as anyone on here. I wanted him from the get go in the draft and was one of the very few that said he would produce for us year one. When Phil put it out there last year that they would listen to any trade offers for him i wanted nothing to do with it and was hoping they wouldn't trade him. Then after hearing rumors of what kind of returns we could of got for him i started thinking the opposite way and was intrigued by some of the talk of what we could get for him. I'm not convinced that he can be the type of player that can lead a team to winning a championship and think if he was say 6'10 and more of a true PF i think he would actually be a better player. What i'm getting at is that i think we should trade KP and we should do it asap and get a huge return for him in players and draft picks. Again, i'm a huge KP fan and love everything about the kid but i think we could build a better team without him and building around Frank, Willy and the rest of the young guys we have.

Well theres almost 0 chance we would trade KP right now--how can you get a full return? The only thing we can do now to help ourselves is literally lose almost every game. There is a whole season of CBB to watch--so much information to learn. I like the "theory" of using a dramatically high draft pick to take Mike Porter and trading one of Willy or KP for a 2nd pick which is Bridges(unless we see differently during the year) If we got both--we have almost the same thing the Cs have in one year. Now PG is a TOUGH TOUGH spot to fill. I DO NOT want to be in the lottery for 5 years--the east will start to get very strong soon. In the nBA its almost impossible toi win without an NBA star--it almost never happened accept with the Pistons when Rich Hamilton was there.
Where I live I used to watch Boston all the time--I really love I Thomas--a healthy I Thomas is a top 10 NBA player and an engine for an NBA. Think about it--behind IT they had the best record and ECF.

My model would like this

Sign a "healthy IT" 20-25mm per 4 years
get that top 3 pick and grab Porter for the 4 position
trade 1 of Willy or KP for M Bridges in the draft and move him into the 3
Move Frank if he shows the goods to 2
Draft Jalen Brunson with the Bulls pick

2 PGs 2 athletic wings
The Nets find shooting guards like they were growing on trees--we should to.
This would be my base plan--it would be exciting change for the Knicks and also set up the team for sometime.

Target next year

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