StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:We would be saying the same thing about Kanter if Willy was the one getting the minutes.

The Bottom line is the knicks has one of the most lopsided rosters in the nba. We have 4 sf, 5 centers. Weknew coming in someone was going to get place on the back burner, and with skill sets being so close, it's thin line between playing and sitting.

Perry has couple of assets in KOQ, Willy, and lance that can net us a solid pg

didnt you say willy was a scrub not long ago?

I never called willy a scub, I just said he's not untouchable

meloshouldgo wrote:And what minutes is THJR earning over Lee???? Lee plays both sides of the ball, THJR does nothing at all. If you want to play people who are earning their minutes, I am good with that, wish you had the balls to bench Melo multiple times over the last two years and you didn't. And now you have cute little double standard that lets you play favorites. Definitely not a fan of hypocrisy

Scoring 4 pts and being virtually invisible on offense is not what I call playing both sides of the ball...

MS wrote:How many times do we have to sign a guy to a big money long term deal and regret it immediately.

This job is not that hard. This team has been terrible for 15 seasons, the fan base is more than patient, but year after year we panic and hand out big deals. Just because the market is where it is doesn’t mean you can’t find value.

Jonathan Simmons was begging for a team and could have been had on a short tradable deal and play the small forward position.

Hardaway JR is one of the top 5 worst contracts in the league. You don’t overpay, Chandler Parsons, Fournier, Crabbe, Holiday.

We just grabbed Dotson for peanuts. We got Willy for nothing. Just let the other teams fill their rosters with garbage contracts and don’t add someone unless they play both sides of the ball or are a superstar.

TPercy wrote:

Caseloads wrote:

TPercy wrote:

MS wrote:How many times do we have to sign a guy to a big money long term deal and regret it immediately.

This job is not that hard. This team has been terrible for 15 seasons, the fan base is more than patient, but year after year we panic and hand out big deals. Just because the market is where it is doesn’t mean you can’t find value.

Jonathan Simmons was begging for a team and could have been had on a short tradable deal and play the small forward position.

Hardaway JR is one of the top 5 worst contracts in the league. You don’t overpay, Chandler Parsons, Fournier, Crabbe, Holiday.

We just grabbed Dotson for peanuts. We got Willy for nothing. Just let the other teams fill their rosters with garbage contracts and don’t add someone unless they play both sides of the ball or are a superstar.

Hardaway has played less than 50 minutes of regular season basketball. Even within those poor games he showed positives we didn't see from Hardaway during his entire tenure in NY. You think we can give him a little bit more time before rushing to this conclusion? I'm just as guilty of overreacting to a small sample size as anyone but I think we can give a little bit more patience here.

hardaway sucks until proven otherwise, especially with the contract given by dumb management

That is just stupid logic. So his time in Atlanta means absolutely nothing? How does the contract management give him relate to his value as a player? If anything it would suggest he is a really good player.

MS is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, but there is probably more context to it all.

Doing the job as a NBA GM, if you are just focusing on the actual best marketplace decision is probably very easy. But KEEPING YOUR JOB as an NBA GM is the difficult and political and complicated part of the equation. You have to justify to your fanbase, your season ticket holders, your courtside seat buyers, your luxury suite buyers, the sports media, other investors, companies you want to pay ad dollars to you, the networks, the other owners and agents, the league administration and then your own specific owner as to why and how you are doing your job better than anyone else can. In a sport limited by height and in a draft only 2 rounds where only a handful of guys can change your team's future, with close to limited to no free agency help for most teams and a system where every decision sticks on you forever ( guaranteed contracts) with close to no margin of error.

If Mills is doing his job, just to do his job right, then THJr never gets signed. If Mills wants to KEEP his job, knowing the pain four years from now doesn't matter if he doesn't last another four weeks, then in that brutal context, the decision makes sense to MILL ALONE. This is why lame duck coaches and executives are poison for a team. Any team, any sport.

THJr had a very small sample size of success in a contract year, in a team known for developing talent, in a specific situation where the team was battered due to injury and attrition through trade and free agency. Market wise, it was a poor bet. Could he pan out? Yes, in theory. Is it likely? No.

That being said, he's here, let's give him a little time, but the early returns don't look very good right now.

The bigger problem, and I think MS might have brought it up in another thread in the past, is there are going to be BARGAINS this coming offseason. Lots of teams are cap locked. Many are above the cap and into the tax zone. The days of wild spending are coming home to roost. If the Knicks had open cap space, a good chunk of it, they could have parlayed that into better assets. The Lakers need to dump Luol Deng when LBJ and Paul George arrive there, the Knicks could have gotten something decent to absorb a guy who can still kind of play the wing (kind of...) There would have been opportunities for them to try to maximize.

MS wrote:How many times do we have to sign a guy to a big money long term deal and regret it immediately.

This job is not that hard. This team has been terrible for 15 seasons, the fan base is more than patient, but year after year we panic and hand out big deals. Just because the market is where it is doesn’t mean you can’t find value.

Jonathan Simmons was begging for a team and could have been had on a short tradable deal and play the small forward position.

Hardaway JR is one of the top 5 worst contracts in the league. You don’t overpay, Chandler Parsons, Fournier, Crabbe, Holiday.

We just grabbed Dotson for peanuts. We got Willy for nothing. Just let the other teams fill their rosters with garbage contracts and don’t add someone unless they play both sides of the ball or are a superstar.

meloshouldgo wrote:And what minutes is THJR earning over Lee???? Lee plays both sides of the ball, THJR does nothing at all. If you want to play people who are earning their minutes, I am good with that, wish you had the balls to bench Melo multiple times over the last two years and you didn't. And now you have cute little double standard that lets you play favorites. Definitely not a fan of hypocrisy

nyknickzingis wrote:I think KOQ is in a contract year, and likely gets traded before trade deadline. There's no way I see the Knicks paying him to keep him as another big on the roster. KP can even play some 5. At this dirt cheap contract, KOQ is a bargain, but not summer 2018. Think playing him is smart, he will get traded eventually, in my opinion.

With Willy, I think they still view him as the starter or longterm guy, because like KOQ, Kanter could be a free agent as well. Depends on the market and what his agent advises him, but I could see Kanter get a big offer in the summer. They could lose him, he is unrestricted.

Willy is being pushed to get better, to play the sort of defense that will make him a valuable starter in the NBA. I think they also want him to roll harder and set stronger picks. That is essential from the 5 man. He can do many things he is extremely skilled.

Longterm I see the pecking order as follows

Willy/Kanter (if he can be re-signed for a good deal)/Noah (If he comes back as an asset)
Porzingis
Dotson
Hardaway
Ntilikina/Baker

Unfortunately think we are stuck with Noah and Hardaway for a few years. Noah will have a bounce back year this year, I'm sure of it. If Kanter walks, suddenly we have a bigger need for Noah and we may not even think of stretching his contract next summer. Hardaway will be who he has been, an inconsistent starting level shooting guard. Only value is age. At that price, we're stuck with him for a while.

Dotson can play and belongs in the league. I like him even more than Tim because he's a two way guy.
Frank needs time but the talent is there, and Ron is a good backup for a team like ours.

Sessions, Lee, Thomas, O'Quinn. To me these guys are just short term players who will be traded or let go within the coming year.

Good post and agree with most of it. I like Willy but i'd put him and KOQ on the trade block and whoever brings the better return i'd trade him. I like Kanter more then most on here and think he'd be a good one to keep at the right price. The stats he puts up at points and rebounds are the type of stats a guy like him could make more than the $17+ mil he's getting from us in today's NBA. As you said Noah most likely isn't going anywhere cause we'd have to be very lucky to find a taker for the rest of his contract even if he does stay healthy and gives us good minutes on the floor so i think a Kanter/Noah combo playing next to KP is a winning combo. I like both Willy and KOQ and what they bring at the center position but we just have too many centers on this team so we're gonna have to get rid of guys we like no matter what.

I also value THJ more than you do and i do think he can be a more consistent player for us and could easily avg 17-18 points a game for us. Just like everyone else i'm not a fan of his contract but in today's NBA he's actually not that overpaid if he does end up being a guy who can avg 17 points a game. He's off to a shaky start but i think he'll be just fine and just think it's the nerves of being back in New York and living up to the contract he was given.

Love love love Dotson. I think he has a chance of being a special two way player. Needs to work on his driving to the basket more but his shooting, passing, moving without the ball and defense should translate well to the NBA.

I believe Frank is gonna end up a good smart PG for us. I haven't seen enough of him to say he's gonna be great and i think it will take a good amount of him playing and getting a good amount of minutes before anyone can truly be able to judge just how good he can and will be. I do think you can see that he's gonna play a smart game and that his BBIQ is high. I think his passing and defense will be top notch but what i'm waiting to see is his shooting and driving to the basket.

R.Baker i like but Mills also overpaid him. I could almost make an argument that Baker is more overpaid then THJ is but i won't...lol. He's a good backup PG/SG to put in games to be a pest to the other teams PG/SG. Really hoping he can show some good shooting this year which would make him much more valuable then he is now.

Dougie McBuckets is a guy i'm becoming more and more a fan of every time i watch him play and think he'd be a nice piece to have on the bench and even think he can play some starter minutes if needed. He moves great without the ball, he obviously has the shot, his defense is better then expected and better then what people said of him before he got here so i would think about picking up his option for next year if he has a good year for us. At least i'm pretty sure he has a option for next year.

I'm really really hoping we find a trade for L.Thomas, C.Lee and KOQ and or Willy. I'm gonna hate trading either one of KOQ and Willy cause i love what KOQ has grown into since he's been with us and Willy looks like he's gonna grow into a good player. L.Thomas is the guy i want traded most cause he's making way too much at $7+ mil for what he brings on the floor.

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

nyknickzingis wrote:I think KOQ is in a contract year, and likely gets traded before trade deadline. There's no way I see the Knicks paying him to keep him as another big on the roster. KP can even play some 5. At this dirt cheap contract, KOQ is a bargain, but not summer 2018. Think playing him is smart, he will get traded eventually, in my opinion.

With Willy, I think they still view him as the starter or longterm guy, because like KOQ, Kanter could be a free agent as well. Depends on the market and what his agent advises him, but I could see Kanter get a big offer in the summer. They could lose him, he is unrestricted.

Willy is being pushed to get better, to play the sort of defense that will make him a valuable starter in the NBA. I think they also want him to roll harder and set stronger picks. That is essential from the 5 man. He can do many things he is extremely skilled.

Longterm I see the pecking order as follows

Willy/Kanter (if he can be re-signed for a good deal)/Noah (If he comes back as an asset)
Porzingis
Dotson
Hardaway
Ntilikina/Baker

Unfortunately think we are stuck with Noah and Hardaway for a few years. Noah will have a bounce back year this year, I'm sure of it. If Kanter walks, suddenly we have a bigger need for Noah and we may not even think of stretching his contract next summer. Hardaway will be who he has been, an inconsistent starting level shooting guard. Only value is age. At that price, we're stuck with him for a while.

Dotson can play and belongs in the league. I like him even more than Tim because he's a two way guy.
Frank needs time but the talent is there, and Ron is a good backup for a team like ours.

Sessions, Lee, Thomas, O'Quinn. To me these guys are just short term players who will be traded or let go within the coming year.

this is exactly where I am. I think the Knicks are doing it right. Willy is under contract for 3 more years (including this one). He will be OK sitting for a bit. Hey, Noah is only going to add more to the glut as coaches were raving about his play in training camp.

KOQ has worked hard and plays hard. 2 years in a row he's earned his minutes. I think right now he and Kantor are the best options. KOQ should get minutes as he really fills out the stat sheet. KOQ is averaging 16ppg and 13rpg per 36 minutes and has a FG% of .667

He makes very little money and of all the trade chips I think he is probably the most valuable and easiest to land us a late first rounder. Some combo of Lee/KOQ/McD/Kuz could look really nice for a playoff team looking to bolster their bench/depth

Kanter deserves a long look. To me Willy is still the guy of the future, but he's going to have to be patient. The Knicks need to manage this right and maximize the value of their roster.

Simple plan: Play Lee, KOQ, Kanter, McD rotation minutes. I think those are the guys who have the most value at the deadline. Move them (hopefully for some future picks even if late) and then elevate Dotson and Willy into those rotation spots. That seems like the best path. It also get the team playing better as those guys are also currently the best and if we want to compete and play well they should be in the rotation.

I seriously doubt that's what they are trying to do, that takes planning and discipline. No i think it's simpler than that and Hornacek is playing favorites. I wouldn't be surprised if Willy seeks four a trade sometime soon

I mean what is the best way to approach a glut? We already had Willy/Noah/KOQ. It turns out Kanter was surely the best player we could get in a Melo deal. So what is the sound approach? I think Kanter and KOQ are the right guys right now. I dont think Willy is better than those guys (right now) but there is no sense of urgency with willy. He's here. If he sits for 50 games and only gets spot duty well he will be OK! Kanter and KOQ are (slightly) older players in contract years. Willy is just not better enough to merit playing over them just because.

The real question will be what do we do with Kanter if we dont trade him? But that is premature. If we are rebuilding the #1 thing to do is acquire young talent and assets. Part of that is making use of current assets and maximizing their value.