GustavBahler wrote:Really hope Frank comes back with some offense next season. If he still wont attack, pretty sure that will be his ceiling. Posters can pull up the stats of some other rookie PG from another era. Different game, different rules. Frustrating to see a top ten PG lottery pick (even as raw as Frank) being so allergic to the rim. Knicks need another answer for next season. Cant wait on Frank.

so after 4 months you are pretty set on his next season?

For me, same types of things were being said about KP and his ability to do typical big man stuff like post up and back players down.

Patience

Thread contribution.

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Really hope Frank comes back with some offense next season. If he still wont attack, pretty sure that will be his ceiling. Posters can pull up the stats of some other rookie PG from another era. Different game, different rules. Frustrating to see a top ten PG lottery pick (even as raw as Frank) being so allergic to the rim. Knicks need another answer for next season. Cant wait on Frank.

so after 4 months you are pretty set on his next season?

For me, same types of things were being said about KP and his ability to do typical big man stuff like post up and back players down.

Patience

On that aspect of his game, yes. When we talk about players being "raw" it usually means their offense shows promise, but needs polish, maybe a lot. I dont see an offense.

I believe Frank has a high BBall IQ, the coaches and players have said as much. But there is more to it than being smart. To be a starting PG in the NBA, you need a chip on your shoulder. On the court. I see someone who after half a season, still cant wait to give up the ball.

Not a big deal for a future backup. For a future starting PG, very big deal. Frank knows what he needs to work on. If he comes back, and its still 4 on 5 on offense too often. Yes, my guess is that this will likely be who he is as long as he is a Knick. Hope Im wrong.

As far as not waiting on him. His progess over the summer would have to be most improved player of the year caliber, for the Knicks not to need a better option to start next season.

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Really hope Frank comes back with some offense next season. If he still wont attack, pretty sure that will be his ceiling. Posters can pull up the stats of some other rookie PG from another era. Different game, different rules. Frustrating to see a top ten PG lottery pick (even as raw as Frank) being so allergic to the rim. Knicks need another answer for next season. Cant wait on Frank.

so after 4 months you are pretty set on his next season?

For me, same types of things were being said about KP and his ability to do typical big man stuff like post up and back players down.

Patience

On that aspect of his game, yes. When we talk about players being "raw" it usually means their offense shows promise, but needs polish, maybe a lot. I dont see an offense.

I believe Frank has a high BBall IQ, the coaches and players have said as much. But there is more to it than being smart. To be a starting PG in the NBA, you need a chip on your shoulder. On the court. I see someone who after half a season, still cant wait to give up the ball.

Not a big deal for a future backup. For a future starting PG, very big deal. Frank knows what he needs to work on. If he comes back, and its still 4 on 5 on offense too often. Yes, my guess is that this will likely be who he is as long as he is a Knick. Hope Im wrong.

As far as not waiting on him. His progess over the summer would have to be most improved player of the year caliber, for the Knicks not to need a better option to start next season.

Welpee wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Really hope Frank comes back with some offense next season. If he still wont attack, pretty sure that will be his ceiling. Posters can pull up the stats of some other rookie PG from another era. Different game, different rules. Frustrating to see a top ten PG lottery pick (even as raw as Frank) being so allergic to the rim. Knicks need another answer for next season. Cant wait on Frank.

so after 4 months you are pretty set on his next season?

For me, same types of things were being said about KP and his ability to do typical big man stuff like post up and back players down.

Patience

On that aspect of his game, yes. When we talk about players being "raw" it usually means their offense shows promise, but needs polish, maybe a lot. I dont see an offense.

I believe Frank has a high BBall IQ, the coaches and players have said as much. But there is more to it than being smart. To be a starting PG in the NBA, you need a chip on your shoulder. On the court. I see someone who after half a season, still cant wait to give up the ball.

Not a big deal for a future backup. For a future starting PG, very big deal. Frank knows what he needs to work on. If he comes back, and its still 4 on 5 on offense too often. Yes, my guess is that this will likely be who he is as long as he is a Knick. Hope Im wrong.

As far as not waiting on him. His progess over the summer would have to be most improved player of the year caliber, for the Knicks not to need a better option to start next season.

A point guard who wants to pass and feed his teammates. Man, such a horrible thing!

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Welpee wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Really hope Frank comes back with some offense next season. If he still wont attack, pretty sure that will be his ceiling. Posters can pull up the stats of some other rookie PG from another era. Different game, different rules. Frustrating to see a top ten PG lottery pick (even as raw as Frank) being so allergic to the rim. Knicks need another answer for next season. Cant wait on Frank.

so after 4 months you are pretty set on his next season?

For me, same types of things were being said about KP and his ability to do typical big man stuff like post up and back players down.

Patience

On that aspect of his game, yes. When we talk about players being "raw" it usually means their offense shows promise, but needs polish, maybe a lot. I dont see an offense.

I believe Frank has a high BBall IQ, the coaches and players have said as much. But there is more to it than being smart. To be a starting PG in the NBA, you need a chip on your shoulder. On the court. I see someone who after half a season, still cant wait to give up the ball.

Not a big deal for a future backup. For a future starting PG, very big deal. Frank knows what he needs to work on. If he comes back, and its still 4 on 5 on offense too often. Yes, my guess is that this will likely be who he is as long as he is a Knick. Hope Im wrong.

As far as not waiting on him. His progess over the summer would have to be most improved player of the year caliber, for the Knicks not to need a better option to start next season.

A point guard who wants to pass and feed his teammates. Man, such a horrible thing!

Wanting to pass to your teammates is great. Sometimes it appears that he wants to be relieved of ball handling duties as quickly as possible. Point guards usually try to create and put pressure on the defense. Moving the ball in the flow is fine but Frank often looks to move the ball as soon as he crosses half court sometimes by doing a 180 to pass to the last person crossing half court.

Pretty sure this is by design. Jack does it a lot too, not as often but a lot.

Player movement, ball movement unless there is another particular set called. For a young rookie still learning NBA and PG position, it's a way to take some decision making out of his hands as well as make sure the team as a whole doesn't become stagnant.

The Knicks Drafted Frank knowing he was going to need time to develop on the offensive end. They seem to have been taking in slow and allowing him to try and grow into the role. Sure he could just go wild and call his own number but he's trying to learn how to do things in the flow. It's not easy as other Rookies are also finding out. Ball, Fox and Monk aren't exactly tearing it up this year either. All have lower Offensive Ratings than Frank. NBA PG is HARD even for scorers.

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:The thing that I look for is to see if he is a special player. And "Special" players have a killer insticnt, ability to know when take over a game, embracing the spotlight, ridiculous level of self confidence and are never afraid to take the big shot. Things I dont think Frank has naturally. And to be fair, not too many do. Hopefully he will improve in some but most of these are not something you can teach or learn with time. You either have it or you dont. Its what seperates the special from the average. IMO, DS and Mitchell have IT.

You are also describing JR Smith and Monta Ellis. Why does scoring seem to be the only facet of the game to make one "special?"

So your declaring a first year player the same as guys that have dissapointed in the league for years and can score, just to try to throw some dirt on Smith, yeah that's not generalizing. Seems logical and factual. To answer your question about scoring. Have you been watching the NBA LATELY? Who is winning chips. Teams with ONE good defender? Defense is a team concept. The teams that are winning chips are teams that have multiple high level scorers. Period. It's no longer the YMCA, 80' Piston type basketball winning. So everyone can keep pretending that this is why we all looked forward to the draft after a ****ty season. And that Frank was a solid 8 pick. But sure..let's wait and see. Im just worried because it seems like the same guys arguing with me about Frank are the same ones who thought Phil would be around for ever. Triangle was going to be our future offense. Grant was a good player. It was ok that Timmy, JR and Shump were traded for basically nothing. And that Noah was a good value pick up. But what do I know, maybe I am wrong on this ones.

You're talking about basically two scenarios: 1) GSW - one of the greatest collections of talent in NBA history; or 2) any team the greatest player of this generation played on (Lebron). [b]Those are the teams who have won a championship lately...unless you count the Spurs, or the Lakers, or the Mavericks, or the Pistons. But I'm sure you find a way to say they don't count, right?

"The teams that are winning chips are teams that have multiple high level scorers"

Yes GS is one. Lebron never won a chip by himself. He needed multiple high level scorers as well. Unless you don't consider Bosh and Wade in that category. My point.

"Who is winning chips. Teams with ONE good defender? Defense is a team concept"

Name the team?

"Those are the teams who have won a championship lately...unless you count the Spurs, or the Lakers, or the Mavericks, or the Pistons. But I'm sure you find a way to say they don't count, right?"

Really? Lakers didn't have multiple high level scorers? Shaq and Kobe? The Spurs had other teams best players lined up to play for Vets minimum. You may want to check those teams rosters before you claim they won it with ONE elite defender. And again, as I said above, defense is a TEAM concept.

Sure... defense is a TEAM concept. Until you have half a roster of guys who cant and dont play it. Than its a team PROBLEM.

You win nothing without top flight defense.

Okay. Winning Basketball talk? I'll play.... you win nothing without at least 3 elite scorers and NO liabilities on offense. Of course you need a good defense. My argument was with someone stating you need just ONE elite defender. Btw. You put Smith or Mitchell on this team and we have at least a 5 to 10 game differential.

But okay. Again, you guys can keep defending Frank playing like a successful lottery pick and making it about me dogging the kid.

I will start including the links to the Suns site where they are still defended Alex Len, the Kings defending Nik Stauskas as 8th pcik, Sixer fans posting Noels defensive stats, etc etc.

Once again, I hope he turns it around. Not willing to trade him. Not willing to give up on him. Just stating the facts. He has to pick up his play. He needs to work on his offensive confidence. And he has not played like a excellent lottery pick. To his defense, I have always said the draft is like playing Lotto. However, picking a 19 year old foreign player seemed like even tougher odds to me.

You have to put things in proper perspective! How is Frank showing he's somehow not in the conversation as far as Prospects? Just increase his scoring and you're talking about a heck of player!

http://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&PlayerPosition=G&PlayerExperience=Rookie&DateTo=01%2F21%2F2018&CF=GP*GE*32

Fuzzy Math!

Fixed:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:The thing that I look for is to see if he is a special player. And "Special" players have a killer insticnt, ability to know when take over a game, embracing the spotlight, ridiculous level of self confidence and are never afraid to take the big shot. Things I dont think Frank has naturally. And to be fair, not too many do. Hopefully he will improve in some but most of these are not something you can teach or learn with time. You either have it or you dont. Its what seperates the special from the average. IMO, DS and Mitchell have IT.

You are also describing JR Smith and Monta Ellis. Why does scoring seem to be the only facet of the game to make one "special?"

So your declaring a first year player the same as guys that have dissapointed in the league for years and can score, just to try to throw some dirt on Smith, yeah that's not generalizing. Seems logical and factual. To answer your question about scoring. Have you been watching the NBA LATELY? Who is winning chips. Teams with ONE good defender? Defense is a team concept. The teams that are winning chips are teams that have multiple high level scorers. Period. It's no longer the YMCA, 80' Piston type basketball winning. So everyone can keep pretending that this is why we all looked forward to the draft after a ****ty season. And that Frank was a solid 8 pick. But sure..let's wait and see. Im just worried because it seems like the same guys arguing with me about Frank are the same ones who thought Phil would be around for ever. Triangle was going to be our future offense. Grant was a good player. It was ok that Timmy, JR and Shump were traded for basically nothing. And that Noah was a good value pick up. But what do I know, maybe I am wrong on this ones.

You're talking about basically two scenarios: 1) GSW - one of the greatest collections of talent in NBA history; or 2) any team the greatest player of this generation played on (Lebron). [b]Those are the teams who have won a championship lately...unless you count the Spurs, or the Lakers, or the Mavericks, or the Pistons. But I'm sure you find a way to say they don't count, right?

"The teams that are winning chips are teams that have multiple high level scorers"

Yes GS is one. Lebron never won a chip by himself. He needed multiple high level scorers as well. Unless you don't consider Bosh and Wade in that category. My point.

"Who is winning chips. Teams with ONE good defender? Defense is a team concept"

Name the team?

"Those are the teams who have won a championship lately...unless you count the Spurs, or the Lakers, or the Mavericks, or the Pistons. But I'm sure you find a way to say they don't count, right?"

Really? Lakers didn't have multiple high level scorers? Shaq and Kobe? The Spurs had other teams best players lined up to play for Vets minimum. You may want to check those teams rosters before you claim they won it with ONE elite defender. And again, as I said above, defense is a TEAM concept.

Sure... defense is a TEAM concept. Until you have half a roster of guys who cant and dont play it. Than its a team PROBLEM.

You win nothing without top flight defense.

Okay. Winning Basketball talk? I'll play.... you win nothing without at least 3 elite scorers and NO liabilities on offense. Of course you need a good defense. My argument was with someone stating you need just ONE elite defender. Btw. You put Smith or Mitchell on this team and we have at least a 5 to 10 game differential.

But okay. Again, you guys can keep defending Frank playing like a successful lottery pick and making it about me dogging the kid.

I will start including the links to the Suns site where they are still defended Alex Len, the Kings defending Nik Stauskas as 8th pcik, Sixer fans posting Noels defensive stats, etc etc.

Once again, I hope he turns it around. Not willing to trade him. Not willing to give up on him. Just stating the facts. He has to pick up his play. He needs to work on his offensive confidence. And he has not played like a excellent lottery pick. To his defense, I have always said the draft is like playing Lotto. However, picking a 19 year old foreign player seemed like even tougher odds to me.

You have to put things in proper perspective! How is Frank showing he's somehow not in the conversation as far as Prospects? Just increase his scoring and you're talking about a heck of player!

http://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&PlayerPosition=G&PlayerExperience=Rookie&DateTo=01%2F21%2F2018&CF=GP*GE*32

Fuzzy Math!

Fixed:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie

In fact let me edit out guys who haven't played at least 32 games:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:The thing that I look for is to see if he is a special player. And "Special" players have a killer insticnt, ability to know when take over a game, embracing the spotlight, ridiculous level of self confidence and are never afraid to take the big shot. Things I dont think Frank has naturally. And to be fair, not too many do. Hopefully he will improve in some but most of these are not something you can teach or learn with time. You either have it or you dont. Its what seperates the special from the average. IMO, DS and Mitchell have IT.

You are also describing JR Smith and Monta Ellis. Why does scoring seem to be the only facet of the game to make one "special?"

So your declaring a first year player the same as guys that have dissapointed in the league for years and can score, just to try to throw some dirt on Smith, yeah that's not generalizing. Seems logical and factual. To answer your question about scoring. Have you been watching the NBA LATELY? Who is winning chips. Teams with ONE good defender? Defense is a team concept. The teams that are winning chips are teams that have multiple high level scorers. Period. It's no longer the YMCA, 80' Piston type basketball winning. So everyone can keep pretending that this is why we all looked forward to the draft after a ****ty season. And that Frank was a solid 8 pick. But sure..let's wait and see. Im just worried because it seems like the same guys arguing with me about Frank are the same ones who thought Phil would be around for ever. Triangle was going to be our future offense. Grant was a good player. It was ok that Timmy, JR and Shump were traded for basically nothing. And that Noah was a good value pick up. But what do I know, maybe I am wrong on this ones.

You're talking about basically two scenarios: 1) GSW - one of the greatest collections of talent in NBA history; or 2) any team the greatest player of this generation played on (Lebron). [b]Those are the teams who have won a championship lately...unless you count the Spurs, or the Lakers, or the Mavericks, or the Pistons. But I'm sure you find a way to say they don't count, right?

"The teams that are winning chips are teams that have multiple high level scorers"

Yes GS is one. Lebron never won a chip by himself. He needed multiple high level scorers as well. Unless you don't consider Bosh and Wade in that category. My point.

"Who is winning chips. Teams with ONE good defender? Defense is a team concept"

Name the team?

"Those are the teams who have won a championship lately...unless you count the Spurs, or the Lakers, or the Mavericks, or the Pistons. But I'm sure you find a way to say they don't count, right?"

Really? Lakers didn't have multiple high level scorers? Shaq and Kobe? The Spurs had other teams best players lined up to play for Vets minimum. You may want to check those teams rosters before you claim they won it with ONE elite defender. And again, as I said above, defense is a TEAM concept.

Sure... defense is a TEAM concept. Until you have half a roster of guys who cant and dont play it. Than its a team PROBLEM.

You win nothing without top flight defense.

Okay. Winning Basketball talk? I'll play.... you win nothing without at least 3 elite scorers and NO liabilities on offense. Of course you need a good defense. My argument was with someone stating you need just ONE elite defender. Btw. You put Smith or Mitchell on this team and we have at least a 5 to 10 game differential.

But okay. Again, you guys can keep defending Frank playing like a successful lottery pick and making it about me dogging the kid.

I will start including the links to the Suns site where they are still defended Alex Len, the Kings defending Nik Stauskas as 8th pcik, Sixer fans posting Noels defensive stats, etc etc.

Once again, I hope he turns it around. Not willing to trade him. Not willing to give up on him. Just stating the facts. He has to pick up his play. He needs to work on his offensive confidence. And he has not played like a excellent lottery pick. To his defense, I have always said the draft is like playing Lotto. However, picking a 19 year old foreign player seemed like even tougher odds to me.

You have to put things in proper perspective! How is Frank showing he's somehow not in the conversation as far as Prospects? Just increase his scoring and you're talking about a heck of player!

http://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&PlayerPosition=G&PlayerExperience=Rookie&DateTo=01%2F21%2F2018&CF=GP*GE*32

Fuzzy Math!

Fixed:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerExperience=Rookie

REALLY? This is what you think makes your case and somehow refutes mine? OK i'll use your stat which is only one of many but let's play your game. If you filter for just guards this is what you get and look at where Mitchell is, Fox, DSJ and Monk. Frank is not on the bottom but closer to the top even with this stat. In fact in terms of actual PG's he's doing quite well. So added to the other stats i've been posting I think it makes my case pretty solidly!!!

In fact let me edit out guys who haven't played at least 32 games:

My stat? That is the main stat used by the NBA to rank defense among players? He is 131 among all. Melo is 38! Lol But okay, So you just went from Frank is "The best defender around" to he is doing "Quite well"? Think I made my point. Which is stop posting adjusted favorable stats for him and trying to make it as he is the best defender around. Fair enough, lets make it about rookie PG's... Again, Brooks is ranked higher than him and he was a second rounder. Should Griz fans be saying he is playing like a lottery pick? And Mitchell, one of the guys I wanted, is ranked higher and is a phenomenal offensive player. I still dont get why everyone is so uptight about judging Frank half way through season. Kepp being accused of saying he is career is done, but it seems like the guys that are the most defensive are the ones that feel that more than I do. It will be a while before we know what he turns out to be.

CrushAlot wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Smith Jr has a 94 offensive rating, 109 defensive rating, 48 TS%, -1.1OWS, 1.0DWS, -0.1WS, -00005 WS48, -1.2OBPM, -0.5DBPM, -1.8BPM 0.1VORP

And Dallas has 16 wins on the season.

I will care for Smith jr when he is actually leading Dallas to playoffs while upping his advanced stats. If he is doing that during a time Frank is not down the road. Then I can say damn we missed on a good one. Right now he is a rookie being featured putting up numbers on a bad basketball team. Same knocks he had on his scouting report. He dropped 3 straight 20pt games in 3 loses and was -7, +1, -2. They just had a good win vs Wash wanna throw that in there, but seemed more like Wash didn't really come to play really.

Carlisle is extremely tough on point guards. Check out his quotes on Smith. Also, Smith's #s are improving as the year has gone on. https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-mavericks/mavericks/2018/01/22/dennis-smith-jr-shows-explosiveness-mentor-john-wall

He is improving, I'm also sure Dallas decided a while ago that their season was in the gutter and are more so committed to his development at this point then anything else. The question still remains can he be a feature player on a winning team. Nobody questioned if he can produce numbers. Those questions will remain until he does it. Just like questions on Franks offensive craft capabilities.