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The Official Frank Ntilikina Versus DSJr Thread
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meloshouldgo
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12/16/2017  11:10 PM
Welpee wrote:
Ira wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Nalod wrote:I too want a bonafide star. We don't get Tim, who is a bonafide 25 year old at a not so crazy salary playing up to it in his first year as a starter, we might have endangered losing KP as there are few bonafide ready made stars out of the draft.
Without timmy we are a bonafide tank and culturally not moving in the right direction. While we have cap, I doubt no top tier alpha star would touch us.
Lets just say that If LeBron wants to play with frank, Tim, KP with Enes that's not a bad team. Is it on paper enough to make the finals? Not without some imagination.
I don't have that kind of mind. Im not saying Lebron does this, but we better with Timmy than without. We better with KP being the man with Tim and its good nobody made a demand that we had to look at a SmithJr because of the short run. OR perhaps chemistry problems with KP.
There is a lot to consider. Many angles and its complicated.
But yeah, I want a superdupermegastar at the 3!!!!
Who doesn't?
Lebron has a lot of miles on his odometer. At some point he's going to start showing noticeable decline while making the most money he's ever made. Do the Knicks really want to be part of that?

No we don't. But if LeBron goes to the Lakers as some are predicting, that may leave Paul George hanging. He'd fit very nicely here - maybe we can do another sign and trade with Orlando.

I think Paul George is a done deal going to the Lakers. Heck, they paid a stiff tampering fine behind it. Lebron is the wild card. I don't think it's either/or. George is a lock. The question is whether Lebron joins him.

He can join wherever he wants as long as it's not the Knicks. Don't want nothing to do with him, he will destroy every thing we are trying to build. Him and his precious CAA can take their talents to wherever.

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Vmart
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12/16/2017  11:15 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Ira wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Nalod wrote:I too want a bonafide star. We don't get Tim, who is a bonafide 25 year old at a not so crazy salary playing up to it in his first year as a starter, we might have endangered losing KP as there are few bonafide ready made stars out of the draft.
Without timmy we are a bonafide tank and culturally not moving in the right direction. While we have cap, I doubt no top tier alpha star would touch us.
Lets just say that If LeBron wants to play with frank, Tim, KP with Enes that's not a bad team. Is it on paper enough to make the finals? Not without some imagination.
I don't have that kind of mind. Im not saying Lebron does this, but we better with Timmy than without. We better with KP being the man with Tim and its good nobody made a demand that we had to look at a SmithJr because of the short run. OR perhaps chemistry problems with KP.
There is a lot to consider. Many angles and its complicated.
But yeah, I want a superdupermegastar at the 3!!!!
Who doesn't?
Lebron has a lot of miles on his odometer. At some point he's going to start showing noticeable decline while making the most money he's ever made. Do the Knicks really want to be part of that?

No we don't. But if LeBron goes to the Lakers as some are predicting, that may leave Paul George hanging. He'd fit very nicely here - maybe we can do another sign and trade with Orlando.

I think Paul George is a done deal going to the Lakers. Heck, they paid a stiff tampering fine behind it. Lebron is the wild card. I don't think it's either/or. George is a lock. The question is whether Lebron joins him.

He can join wherever he wants as long as it's not the Knicks. Don't want nothing to do with him, he will destroy every thing we are trying to build. Him and his precious CAA can take their talents to wherever.

I total agree with you.

Nalod
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12/17/2017  2:13 AM
Welpee wrote:
Nalod wrote:I too want a bonafide star. We don't get Tim, who is a bonafide 25 year old at a not so crazy salary playing up to it in his first year as a starter, we might have endangered losing KP as there are few bonafide ready made stars out of the draft.
Without timmy we are a bonafide tank and culturally not moving in the right direction. While we have cap, I doubt no top tier alpha star would touch us.
Lets just say that If LeBron wants to play with frank, Tim, KP with Enes that's not a bad team. Is it on paper enough to make the finals? Not without some imagination.
I don't have that kind of mind. Im not saying Lebron does this, but we better with Timmy than without. We better with KP being the man with Tim and its good nobody made a demand that we had to look at a SmithJr because of the short run. OR perhaps chemistry problems with KP.
There is a lot to consider. Many angles and its complicated.
But yeah, I want a superdupermegastar at the 3!!!!
Who doesn't?
Lebron has a lot of miles on his odometer. At some point he's going to start showing noticeable decline while making the most money he's ever made. Do the Knicks really want to be part of that?

My post was you have to have talent to attract talent and drafting a star is not as easy as said.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
reub
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1/7/2018  9:57 AM
Their first head to head meeting is tonight. Should be interesting.
reub
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1/7/2018  9:47 PM
Frank was dominating on defense tonight and pretty good on offense too. The first meeting, and win, goes to Frank who was our best player tonight.
nixluva
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1/7/2018  10:11 PM
reub wrote:Frank was dominating on defense tonight and pretty good on offense too. The first meeting, and win, goes to Frank who was our best player tonight.

Frank was impressive and I don't wanna hear anymore BS about his game given how he's progressed so far this season already. The kid is just getting started.

StarksEwing1
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1/7/2018  10:18 PM
Wasnt too impressed with DSJ. Frank on the other hand was doing a bit of everything.
Welpee
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1/7/2018  10:29 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:Wasnt too impressed with DSJ. Frank on the other hand was doing a bit of everything.
Just like we shouldn't go overboard when Frank has a subpar game, we shouldn't pass judgment on Smith off of this one non-impact game he played.
nixluva
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1/7/2018  10:42 PM
Welpee wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:Wasnt too impressed with DSJ. Frank on the other hand was doing a bit of everything.
Just like we shouldn't go overboard when Frank has a subpar game, we shouldn't pass judgment on Smith off of this one non-impact game he played.

I have no doubt that DSJ can and has had more impressive games. I just don't really think he's close to being able to run a team at this level yet. I think Frank is closer. He's having a more positive impact on his team.

Dennis Smith Jr.
eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% ORtg
On Court -.033 +54.9 +5.9 +3.6 +13.6 -9.3
Off Court +.013 +61.4 +7.7 +3.8 +13.4 +2.5
On/Off Diff -.046 -6.5 -1.8 -0.2 +0.2 -11.8

Frank Ntilikina
eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% ORtg
On Court +.003 +55.8 +8.1 +5.7 +15.8 +0.3
Off Court -.009 +56.5 +6.6 +3.6 +15.8 -1.4
On/Off Diff +.012 -0.7 +1.5 +2.1 +0.0 +1.7

StarksEwing1
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1/7/2018  10:47 PM
Welpee wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:Wasnt too impressed with DSJ. Frank on the other hand was doing a bit of everything.
Just like we shouldn't go overboard when Frank has a subpar game, we shouldn't pass judgment on Smith off of this one non-impact game he played.
not passing judgment...just saying that i feel frank is a more complete player
Welpee
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1/7/2018  11:06 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
Welpee wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:Wasnt too impressed with DSJ. Frank on the other hand was doing a bit of everything.
Just like we shouldn't go overboard when Frank has a subpar game, we shouldn't pass judgment on Smith off of this one non-impact game he played.
not passing judgment...just saying that i feel frank is a more complete player
Agreed. I don't recall seeing DSJ try to set up a teammate for an easy shot at all. I bet most of his assists were just the last pass before somebody hit a shot. We actually saw Frank trying to set people up for easy looks. And we don't even need to discuss defense.
Welpee
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1/7/2018  11:07 PM
nixluva wrote:
Welpee wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:Wasnt too impressed with DSJ. Frank on the other hand was doing a bit of everything.
Just like we shouldn't go overboard when Frank has a subpar game, we shouldn't pass judgment on Smith off of this one non-impact game he played.

I have no doubt that DSJ can and has had more impressive games. I just don't really think he's close to being able to run a team at this level yet. I think Frank is closer. He's having a more positive impact on his team.

Dennis Smith Jr.
eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% ORtg
On Court -.033 +54.9 +5.9 +3.6 +13.6 -9.3
Off Court +.013 +61.4 +7.7 +3.8 +13.4 +2.5
On/Off Diff -.046 -6.5 -1.8 -0.2 +0.2 -11.8

Frank Ntilikina
eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% ORtg
On Court +.003 +55.8 +8.1 +5.7 +15.8 +0.3
Off Court -.009 +56.5 +6.6 +3.6 +15.8 -1.4
On/Off Diff +.012 -0.7 +1.5 +2.1 +0.0 +1.7

Where do you find your stats?
nixluva
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1/8/2018  12:10 AM
Welpee wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Welpee wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:Wasnt too impressed with DSJ. Frank on the other hand was doing a bit of everything.
Just like we shouldn't go overboard when Frank has a subpar game, we shouldn't pass judgment on Smith off of this one non-impact game he played.

I have no doubt that DSJ can and has had more impressive games. I just don't really think he's close to being able to run a team at this level yet. I think Frank is closer. He's having a more positive impact on his team.

Dennis Smith Jr.
eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% ORtg
On Court -.033 +54.9 +5.9 +3.6 +13.6 -9.3
Off Court +.013 +61.4 +7.7 +3.8 +13.4 +2.5
On/Off Diff -.046 -6.5 -1.8 -0.2 +0.2 -11.8

Frank Ntilikina
eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% ORtg
On Court +.003 +55.8 +8.1 +5.7 +15.8 +0.3
Off Court -.009 +56.5 +6.6 +3.6 +15.8 -1.4
On/Off Diff +.012 -0.7 +1.5 +2.1 +0.0 +1.7

Where do you find your stats?

Basketball Reference under On/Off 2017 on player pages
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/ntilila01/on-off/2018
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/smithde03/on-off/2018
nyknickzingis
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1/8/2018  8:23 AM
nixluva wrote:
Welpee wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:Wasnt too impressed with DSJ. Frank on the other hand was doing a bit of everything.
Just like we shouldn't go overboard when Frank has a subpar game, we shouldn't pass judgment on Smith off of this one non-impact game he played.

I have no doubt that DSJ can and has had more impressive games. I just don't really think he's close to being able to run a team at this level yet. I think Frank is closer. He's having a more positive impact on his team.

Dennis Smith Jr.
eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% ORtg
On Court -.033 +54.9 +5.9 +3.6 +13.6 -9.3
Off Court +.013 +61.4 +7.7 +3.8 +13.4 +2.5
On/Off Diff -.046 -6.5 -1.8 -0.2 +0.2 -11.8

Frank Ntilikina
eFG% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% ORtg
On Court +.003 +55.8 +8.1 +5.7 +15.8 +0.3
Off Court -.009 +56.5 +6.6 +3.6 +15.8 -1.4
On/Off Diff +.012 -0.7 +1.5 +2.1 +0.0 +1.7

Frank has been a big part of the change in défense and even sharing the ball mentality we have this year. He has some lousy games but I've seen him be a major part of the culture change on the team. The way we were playing defense yesterday in the fourth was a sight to see.

On offense if he has good team numbers it's because he's the only guard on the team that can push the ball up and start the offense early in the shot clock. However that says less about him and more about how weak our starters can play on offense. Too slow too predictable.

GoNyGoNyGo
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1/8/2018  9:53 AM
Frank's D is very good now. Can be elite level as he learns more.

His passing is very good. His shot is smooth. He hesitates and defers to his teammates sometimes too much but all in all, he is solid and his future looks very good.

Yet another mistake by Dolan. When will it end?
fishmike
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1/8/2018  11:16 AM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Frank's D is very good now. Can be elite level as he learns more.

His passing is very good. His shot is smooth. He hesitates and defers to his teammates sometimes too much but all in all, he is solid and his future looks very good.


http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM
Check this out. Frank is holding his opponents to an EFG of 40%. That is mind numbingly low.
Some others for context:
Chris Paul .472
Frank .400
Patty Mills .504
Lowry .484
Chris Dunn .494
Steph Curry .452
Kemba .475
Lilliard .489
Wall .467
Kyrie .433
Dennis Smith .543
Jarrtt Jack .512

Eye test, metrics, stats... everything already says Frank's defense is already elite, and everyone watching knows he's only going to improve.

I just dont get how Frank's defense doesnt have him in the conversation of best in his draft class. Surely Tatum has been great but in league where opposing PGs run amok nightly the Knicks might just have one of the most valueable chips on their roster. Combine him with KP and another and you are building an iron curtain.

Frank hung with Kryie and locked him down in the 4th while the Knicks won that game. Will Irving adjust and come back? Of course, but highlight dunks are nice. Lockdown 4th qtr defense for wins against elite talent? Priceless. But that's just one's guy's opinion.

Last night he played great D again, 7pts, 7rebs, 5assists, 2TOs, 1 steal and 2 blocks. He was -2 in 25 minutes in a close game.

Welpee
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1/8/2018  11:30 AM
fishmike wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Frank's D is very good now. Can be elite level as he learns more.

His passing is very good. His shot is smooth. He hesitates and defers to his teammates sometimes too much but all in all, he is solid and his future looks very good.


http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM
Check this out. Frank is holding his opponents to an EFG of 40%. That is mind numbingly low.
Some others for context:
Chris Paul .472
Frank .400
Patty Mills .504
Lowry .484
Chris Dunn .494
Steph Curry .452
Kemba .475
Lilliard .489
Wall .467
Kyrie .433
Dennis Smith .543
Jarrtt Jack .512

Eye test, metrics, stats... everything already says Frank's defense is already elite, and everyone watching knows he's only going to improve.

I just dont get how Frank's defense doesnt have him in the conversation of best in his draft class. Surely Tatum has been great but in league where opposing PGs run amok nightly the Knicks might just have one of the most valueable chips on their roster. Combine him with KP and another and you are building an iron curtain.

Frank hung with Kryie and locked him down in the 4th while the Knicks won that game. Will Irving adjust and come back? Of course, but highlight dunks are nice. Lockdown 4th qtr defense for wins against elite talent? Priceless. But that's just one's guy's opinion.

Last night he played great D again, 7pts, 7rebs, 5assists, 2TOs, 1 steal and 2 blocks. He was -2 in 25 minutes in a close game.

I'm not sure what the metrics say, but Frank's defense is solid, especially for a rookie, but I wouldn't call it elite by any stretch YET. He's not making any all defensive teams as a rookie, so I wouldn't call it elite. Now, I definitely see the potential for it to get to that level but he's not there now. And there's nothing wrong with that. He still has plenty of room and time to grow.
newyorknewyork
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1/8/2018  11:36 AM
fishmike wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Frank's D is very good now. Can be elite level as he learns more.

His passing is very good. His shot is smooth. He hesitates and defers to his teammates sometimes too much but all in all, he is solid and his future looks very good.


http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM
Check this out. Frank is holding his opponents to an EFG of 40%. That is mind numbingly low.
Some others for context:
Chris Paul .472
Frank .400
Patty Mills .504
Lowry .484
Chris Dunn .494
Steph Curry .452
Kemba .475
Lilliard .489
Wall .467
Kyrie .433
Dennis Smith .543
Jarrtt Jack .512

Eye test, metrics, stats... everything already says Frank's defense is already elite, and everyone watching knows he's only going to improve.

I just dont get how Frank's defense doesnt have him in the conversation of best in his draft class. Surely Tatum has been great but in league where opposing PGs run amok nightly the Knicks might just have one of the most valueable chips on their roster. Combine him with KP and another and you are building an iron curtain.

Frank hung with Kryie and locked him down in the 4th while the Knicks won that game. Will Irving adjust and come back? Of course, but highlight dunks are nice. Lockdown 4th qtr defense for wins against elite talent? Priceless. But that's just one's guy's opinion.

Last night he played great D again, 7pts, 7rebs, 5assists, 2TOs, 1 steal and 2 blocks. He was -2 in 25 minutes in a close game.

The vision most likely when drafting Frank was a defensive guard who can shoot and create within the flow of an offense. As well as provide all types of flexibility and versatility. This is what we should look to build with. Frank won't be a great scorer. But needs to work toward being an efficient 15pts per game 5rebs 7ast 2stls and lock down defense type of player. KP being a defensive stud who gets efficient buckets within the flow given his potential to score anywhere on the court. While working on his passing. Pieces need to be put in place around their skills and weaknesses. Need an all around combo forward that can complete the length defensively between Frank and KP while providing playmake passing ability that KP lacks and Frank needs more support with. Would like another big that can pass which hopefully Willy could step up to the plate.

With a PG like Frank the vision is to have the ball flow amount multiple ball movers. Rather then just given him the ball and telling him to be Steve Nash or Stockton. Thats the type of style that makes offensives unguardable while also having stud defensive pieces in place.

martin
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1/8/2018  11:53 AM
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fishmike
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1/8/2018  11:57 AM
Welpee wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:Frank's D is very good now. Can be elite level as he learns more.

His passing is very good. His shot is smooth. He hesitates and defers to his teammates sometimes too much but all in all, he is solid and his future looks very good.


http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTM
Check this out. Frank is holding his opponents to an EFG of 40%. That is mind numbingly low.
Some others for context:
Chris Paul .472
Frank .400
Patty Mills .504
Lowry .484
Chris Dunn .494
Steph Curry .452
Kemba .475
Lilliard .489
Wall .467
Kyrie .433
Dennis Smith .543
Jarrtt Jack .512

Eye test, metrics, stats... everything already says Frank's defense is already elite, and everyone watching knows he's only going to improve.

I just dont get how Frank's defense doesnt have him in the conversation of best in his draft class. Surely Tatum has been great but in league where opposing PGs run amok nightly the Knicks might just have one of the most valueable chips on their roster. Combine him with KP and another and you are building an iron curtain.

Frank hung with Kryie and locked him down in the 4th while the Knicks won that game. Will Irving adjust and come back? Of course, but highlight dunks are nice. Lockdown 4th qtr defense for wins against elite talent? Priceless. But that's just one's guy's opinion.

Last night he played great D again, 7pts, 7rebs, 5assists, 2TOs, 1 steal and 2 blocks. He was -2 in 25 minutes in a close game.

I'm not sure what the metrics say, but Frank's defense is solid, especially for a rookie, but I wouldn't call it elite by any stretch YET. He's not making any all defensive teams as a rookie, so I wouldn't call it elite. Now, I definitely see the potential for it to get to that level but he's not there now. And there's nothing wrong with that. He still has plenty of room and time to grow.
I want to agree with you. Everything you say makes sense. So who are the elite guys playing better D than Frank? Who are the guys who's level you want Frank to get to? Not trolling... honest question.
The Official Frank Ntilikina Versus DSJr Thread

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