Welpee wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Juliano wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/930222499509411840

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.

Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Why are you pretending you dont know what this is all about. Its about who is the better player/prospect. So far Frank has been a solid ROLE player. My point was that you jabe to stop making it sound like he has taken over games with his play. Or that the team would be doimg worse witj Smith on the team. I think they would be even better r8gjt now witj Smith or Mitchell. Btw. Guys that are losing a debate usually resort to emotional stuff like "Ball hogging babies". Specially whem stats dont bacl it up. Nor can it be said of anyome watching him play. I've heard that made up perspective from many on jere before. Same **** people were saying about Lowry, Irving, amd LT. All that "they dont defend" and "let me show you the efficiency numbers" crap.Your missing the whole point. But Probably not. You just like changing the narrative when losing the argument. This thread is about who is the BETER player Smith or Frank. NOT who the better team is. Or ahould we start a whos better Harrison Barnes or LT thread and declare LT better. Or Lebron vs Lee amd declare Lee the wimmer because of gis COMBO stats. Using these type of stats we can come up with another 100 examples of mediocre players that are better than stars. But AGAIN, this is not about hating the Kid or within he fails or not rooting for him. Its about who "I" tgink is the better player and my preferred pick. I hope he proves me wrong. So far I can't say that he has.

Btw, your clearly not watching the Dallas games. Mills was not covered by Smith fyi.

It's not just the advanced stats. Watching DSJ, you can tell he's a bit shot thirsty, pounds the ball way too much to foster ball movement and his D needs work. I'm pretty sure this team would not be playing better is we had Smith instead of Frank. We need a facilitator and defender. Frank is better than DSJ at those things. DSJ is a better scorer, but scoring doesn't seem to be a major problem for us right now. I like Mitchell, but I'm not sure he can run the offense the way it needs to be ran. Plus, his shooting is erratic at this point. Mitchell probably needs to eased in. Unfortunately, Utah doesn't have that luxury.

Did you watch the game? He averages 15 shots a game. Not exactly shot happy. And almost 5 assists per game. Not exactly a bad fascilitator. And if all we needed was a fascilitator and a rookie that can play some defense, why use it with number 8 pick? Come on? Same people that thought Mike Conley was worth all that money for his ROLE skills and bagged Curry, Kyrie, IT etc etc.

Conley is a bad example because dude was balling last season after the contract. I wouldn't have signed him for that type of money because he won't keep it up for the length of his deal, but I think he was one of the best at his position last year.

Your right, bad example. Mike is a great scorer as well. Point is that they overvalued a very good defender.

newyorknewyork wrote:

nychamp wrote:Ah, a dunk. Amazing, almost no one in the NBA can do that. What a rare talent!
On a related note, don't you love the awesome flashing lights in the arena too?!

newyorknewyork wrote:

Your right. Here are some more flashing lights for you champ.

Kind of the same things Frank did against Cavs. Will post the Frank video when he coughed up the ball late in the game, with score tied.

Zebo13 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

That would be exciting to see, unfortunately usually teams guard guards with guards and help comes. He is pretty long too. No brainer I would take Frank. Fox is the ONLY PG rookie I might take over Frank at this point. Still early of course.

HofstraBBall wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Juliano wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/espnstatsinfo/status/930222499509411840

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.

Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Why are you pretending you dont know what this is all about. Its about who is the better player/prospect. So far Frank has been a solid ROLE player. My point was that you jabe to stop making it sound like he has taken over games with his play. Or that the team would be doimg worse witj Smith on the team. I think they would be even better r8gjt now witj Smith or Mitchell. Btw. Guys that are losing a debate usually resort to emotional stuff like "Ball hogging babies". Specially whem stats dont bacl it up. Nor can it be said of anyome watching him play. I've heard that made up perspective from many on jere before. Same **** people were saying about Lowry, Irving, amd LT. All that "they dont defend" and "let me show you the efficiency numbers" crap.Your missing the whole point. But Probably not. You just like changing the narrative when losing the argument. This thread is about who is the BETER player Smith or Frank. NOT who the better team is. Or ahould we start a whos better Harrison Barnes or LT thread and declare LT better. Or Lebron vs Lee amd declare Lee the wimmer because of gis COMBO stats. Using these type of stats we can come up with another 100 examples of mediocre players that are better than stars. But AGAIN, this is not about hating the Kid or within he fails or not rooting for him. Its about who "I" tgink is the better player and my preferred pick. I hope he proves me wrong. So far I can't say that he has.

Btw, your clearly not watching the Dallas games. Mills was not covered by Smith fyi.

It's not just the advanced stats. Watching DSJ, you can tell he's a bit shot thirsty, pounds the ball way too much to foster ball movement and his D needs work. I'm pretty sure this team would not be playing better is we had Smith instead of Frank. We need a facilitator and defender. Frank is better than DSJ at those things. DSJ is a better scorer, but scoring doesn't seem to be a major problem for us right now. I like Mitchell, but I'm not sure he can run the offense the way it needs to be ran. Plus, his shooting is erratic at this point. Mitchell probably needs to eased in. Unfortunately, Utah doesn't have that luxury.

Did you watch the game? He averages 15 shots a game. Not exactly shot happy. And almost 5 assists per game. Not exactly a bad fascilitator. And if all we needed was a fascilitator and a rookie that can play some defense, why use it with number 8 pick? Come on? Same people that thought Mike Conley was worth all that money for his ROLE skills and bagged Curry, Kyrie, IT etc etc.

Many of these pass first point guards don't fare great in scoring in their rookie year. Frank will get better at picking his spots, but I don't envision him being a 20 points a night scorer. He wasn't picked by Phil Jackson for that. What Phil wanted is what we're seeing. A player that will transform how we play defense, a leader, a player who is an extension of the coach.

Lock this thread!

EnySpree wrote:Frank is on a winning team.... DSJr is on the NBA worse team

Lock this thread!

Because we already saw drose up close.....we saw his injury prone body break down......and mediocre defense. Here comes a drose clone with similar knee issues and explosiveness....

I think we reached for Frank but I'm ok with that because he fits out team chemistry and very unselfish but condifident.

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Ira wrote:Frank brings two things to the Knicks - incredible defense and good ball movement. These were two things we were sorely lacking last season - especially at point guard. I respect what Smith has brought to Dallas, but it hasn't helped them win and, considering Smith's injury history, drafting Frank was the obvious choice.

agreed. I look at how a player impact the team. DSJ has been impressive offensively but the team isn't winning at all. Frank on the other hand have had a huge impact on our wins even though he isnt scoring yet. Just imagine how much better we will be when his offense blossoms

Not to conrinue the whole DSjr vs Frank thing but it is the thread topic but is anyone saying Frank has not contributed?

We are talking about who is the better player and better pick at 8. Unfortunately arguing this point makes me out to hate the Kid. To me, a 8 pick is a franchise player. Yes, sometimes those can go bad. But a risk worth taking at that spot. Don't think the 8th pick is for just a good role player. We could have otten one, and did in Jack, with FA or later draft pick.

Im alsoo fighting the Rose colored glasses fans.

Btw last night.
Frank 1st half. 3 fouls, 1 brick, TO in six minutes.
2nd half TO and foul in first minute in.
Made 2 good buckets.
With steal misses lay up instead of holding to run clock. Lucky the 3 that followed was with 1 second left.
Not that I was at the game or anything. And ROOTING for Frank.

But the Rose colored fans defending him over Smith will say "But he was why we won". No...Timmy was. He just played a small role. And saying he is better than Smith because Dallas sucks (Watch them and you will see why. And it's not Smith) is like saying LT is better than Barnes.

It must really suck for you seeing the Knicks winning. Frank helps it and you can’t stand it. Like Fish said if he ain’t AAU your not liking him. He doesn’t fit your style of basketball player. If winning isn’t your cup of tea and the ooh and ahh of dunking and breaking ankles is it you just need to watch highlights. You want a player who is a highlight reel.

You like the name on the back and not the front of the jersey.