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The Official Frank Ntilikina Versus DSJr Thread
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fishmike
Posts: 47695
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Member: #298
USA
11/14/2017  2:01 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
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Gudris
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11/14/2017  3:18 PM
Frank "The Thief" Nilikina
HofstraBBall
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11/14/2017  4:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2017  4:12 PM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
GustavBahler
Posts: 32931
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11/14/2017  4:21 PM
Nice write up...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2744159-save-your-frank-ntilikina-slander-hes-worthy-of-knicks-lottery-pick


NEW YORK — Forget, for a moment, the image from Monday night, that of a 19-year-old Frank Ntilikina, chest puffed out at LeBron James, like a kid standing up to the bully on the playground for the first time, and the chants of "Frank-ie" filling Madison Square Garden. It's a fun picture, and a telling one, but also secondary to the real story.

Instead, go back to the clips of him using his quick feet to stifle James Harden, or his seven-foot wingspan to overwhelm Dwyane Wade. Go back to the snappy bounce passes he's dropped into the waiting hands of cutters. Go back even further, to the way New York Knicks head coach Jeff Hornacek spoke about Ntilikina during the preseason.

"I think the surprising thing for me as a coach is how knowledgeable he is of the game and how he reads things," Hornacek told reporters in during training camp. "You saw some of his raw talent, you saw his length on tape. But when you're here watching him play every day, seeing the plays that he makes, finding the mismatches and getting the ball to that guy quickly—it's probably something he's not even thinking about it, it's just natural. That's something not many guys have, so that's what's been impressive."

Now take this package and sprinkle in the temerity to stand up to the coolest kid in school and you have a prospect that every team in the league would love to have. It's way too early in the respective careers of both he and Dennis Smith Jr. to fall into the binary trap, expertly laid by James over the weekend, of comparing the two. But 11 games into his NBA career, Ntilikina has proven himself worthy of his lottery selection.

He's already one of the top perimeter defenders in the league. GMs and coaches will tell you the ability to stop penetration is one of the most valuable and rare skills. And his physical profile means he's capable of guarding both point guards and wings.

He's first in steals per 100 possessions and second in deflections per 36 minutes (both stats minimum five games games), according to NBA.com. He's able to jump passing lanes and pick pockets without bailing on assignments. A film junkie—he mentions watching film nearly every time he speaks with the media—he's rapidly picking up the flows of opposing NBA attacks.

"He's starting to become a lot more vocal, calling out screens and coverages. He's really grown a lot," Knicks forward Lance Thomas told Bleacher Report.

His offensive game is still raw. He's passive with the ball, and is often reluctant to drive or shoot. Ninety-eight percent of players take a larger chunk of their shots at the rim, according to Cleaning the Glass. Ntilikina is also only shooting 50 percent at the hoop (per Basketball Reference), a below-average rate, part of which can be chalked up to him frequently hesitating while attacking. And the 23.8 percent he's shooting from deep is not a strong enough clip.

And yet none of these struggles should be alarming. Ntilikina drilled 38 percent of his treys in France last year. He has the ability to stroke it from deep, it's just a matter of just a matter of finding his comfort zone. He's also not the first international rookie to struggle with the NBA's farther three-point line. As Chris Herring's 2015 Wall Street Journal study pointed out, various marksmen, from Dirk Nowitzki to Peja Stojakovic, have seen dramatic improvements in their long-range shooting following their rookie seasons.

He'll eventually grow comfortable from there. That will open more lanes for him, which will likely make him more aggressive. He's also still just a teenager in a foreign country playing among grown men. It's not surprising that he might feel a bit subservient to his teammates, that he might be working extra hard to hit them for open looks as opposed to hunting his own.

"The NBA is not a huge adjustment, but there are things I need to get used to," Ntilikina told Bleacher Report earlier this year. "The physicality a little bit, the pace of the game, the speed of players. But I'm ready for this."

Perhaps most telling is how his head coach seems to feel the same way. Hornacek, after all, is the same coach who's relegated Willy Hernangomez, a member of the NBA's All-Rookie team last year, to the end of the bench. He prefers veterans, yet is already giving Ntilikina the majority of the team's crunch-time minutes, and for good reason: The Knicks have been 12.1 points per 100 possessions better with him on the floor, according to Basketball Reference.

It might take years for us to learn whether the Knicks erred by choosing Ntilikina over Smith, whose 48-inch vertical and Russell Westbrook-like burst make him the flashier player. But that doesn't mean Ntilikina is a stiff. With his defense, passing (8.3 assists per 36 minutes, per Basketball Reference) and overall feel for the game, he's shown that he's a prospect the Knicks can feel comfortable building around.

Couple him with Kristaps Porzingis and suddenly the future of the team looks bright. It's been a while since anyone could say that of the Knicks. Porzingis is clearly the reason why, but Ntilikina's quiet emergence means the unicorn has a parter to help him carry the load.

Yaron Weitzman covers the Knicks and NBA for Bleacher Report. Follow Yaron on Twitter, @YaronWeitzman, and listen to his Knicks-themed podcast here.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 25022
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Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

11/14/2017  4:42 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fishmike
Posts: 47695
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
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11/14/2017  5:02 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.
This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.
fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
HofstraBBall
Posts: 22344
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Joined: 11/21/2015
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11/14/2017  6:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2017  6:03 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

You do know what this thread is about right? If your tired of the comparisons, fair enough, but why post on the thread dedicated to it.

On topic
How is Smith such a bad passer but averaging more dimes than Frank? Fyi, He is number 4 in scoring AND assists among all rookies. Frank is the better defender because of his length. Thats it.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
Chandler
Posts: 22313
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/26/2015
Member: #6197

11/14/2017  6:03 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


serious question: if DSJ falters will you confess to be a DSL "blowhard" or will it be some explanation that you thought he was going to be good -- honest mistake

For the record, I was agnostic about Jerian, but confess to being a homer and liking all our picks

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
HofstraBBall
Posts: 22344
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11/14/2017  6:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2017  6:16 PM
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.
This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
Welpee
Posts: 21615
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11/14/2017  6:18 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/14/2017  6:20 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

You do know what this thread is about right? If your tired of the comparisons, fair enough, but why post on the thread dedicated to it.

On topic
How is Smith such a bad passer but averaging more dimes than Frank? Fyi, He is number 4 in scoring AND assists among all rookies. Frank is the better defender because of his length. Thats it.

There are a lot of long dudes who can't play defense, so Frank isn't a better defender just because of his length. And not that I'm a big advocate of advanced stats, but according to basketballreference.com per 36 mins Frank is 16th in the NBA in assists, Smith is 46. Per 100 possessions Frank is 15th in the NBA, Smith is 45th.

I wouldn't say Smith is a bad passer, but if you go by this very limited sample size I think it's safe to say Frank has a more positive impact on his team than Smith does. Having short arms shouldn't prevent Smith from giving better effort on defense.

newyorknewyork
Posts: 27058
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Member: #541
11/14/2017  6:40 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

Dotson wouldnt have the games or mins played nessesary for it to be a valid comparison. And you compared a few mins of one game vs the compiled stats of 10-11. He clearly has his flaws. But doesn't the on-off court differential show that his positives based on what he has currently demonstrated far out weight his negatives? The fact that he is able to produce these type of advanced stats this early in his career is worth praise. Don't think anyone would have guessed this type of contribution this early in his career.

Frank and KP at 19-22 yrs old having the highest combined net efficiency in the NBA. Out of all the possible duos in the NBA. That's amazing.

ekstarks94
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11/14/2017  9:05 PM

Stephen A is a court jester....

GustavBahler
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11/14/2017  10:03 PM
Brought up about a month ago that Frank should spend some time at Rucker or the Drew league next summer. A month later, feel even stronger about it.

Look back at the great PGs of all time, going back to Cousy. How many of them didn't cut their teeth on the playground? Thats whats missing from Frank's game. Some might take what I said to suggest that I want some fancy dribbling for no purpose. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Playground basketball has been a laboratory for NBA players going back more than 50 years. This would be a great crash course for Ntilikina.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 25022
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Member: #3049

11/14/2017  11:06 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.

You do know what this thread is about right? If your tired of the comparisons, fair enough, but why post on the thread dedicated to it.

On topic
How is Smith such a bad passer but averaging more dimes than Frank? Fyi, He is number 4 in scoring AND assists among all rookies. Frank is the better defender because of his length. Thats it.


You're right, this is a DSJ vs. Frank thread. But how about we wait until DSJ does something noteworthy. As for assists, Frank has a higher assist percentage and per minute assist average than Smith. You, LeBron and maybe Smith's dad are the only ones who think Smith is as good a passer as Frank. Frank contributes to winners. DSJ gets highlight dunks in blowout losses.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fishmike
Posts: 47695
Alba Posts: 1
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Member: #298
USA
11/15/2017  9:49 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.
This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
Welpee
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11/15/2017  9:52 AM
ekstarks94 wrote:

Stephen A is a court jester....

Shocker. I wouldn't be surprised if Stephen A. Smith worked part time as Lebron's butler.

Speaking of which, SAS didn't think Lebron was ready for the NBA coming out of high school. So his talent evaluation skills appear to be lacking.

Welpee
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11/15/2017  9:57 AM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.
This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Smith also had the second lowest +/- of all players in that game.
Chandler
Posts: 22313
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/26/2015
Member: #6197

11/15/2017  10:37 AM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.
This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Also check out their clutch stats!

With stats like those we're going to need to nickname DSJ "Wilt" (no not in honor of Wilt C)

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
Welpee
Posts: 21615
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/22/2016
Member: #6239

11/15/2017  10:47 AM
Who would you rather have: Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki or Paul Pierce? All three came out of the 1998 draft. Vince made noise early with flashy numbers and highlight dunks. However, long term most would prefer having the other two.
HofstraBBall
Posts: 22344
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

11/15/2017  11:00 AM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Juliano wrote:
nixluva wrote:

Now that's a very impressive statistic! Early days, obviously, but at 19 and 22 and with only a dozen games together this hints at a decade of playoffs potential partnership.

http://www.82games.com/1718/17NYK3.HTMFrank's positive impact is not imaginary. Look at all his on/off stats. The Knicks are better on both sides of the ball measurably with Frank on the floor. Look at them, its very impressive.

By comparison:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17DAL2.HTM
Mavs are barely better offsively with DS on the floor. When he's on their defense takes a huge hit.

Just to throw a 3rd in there here's Monk's:
http://www.82games.com/1718/17CHA5.HTM
Monk's #s are terrible.

no fair. you're using facts!

With this type of acute fact gathering, Dotson, was the better pick and he should be playinh over everybody. The kid stood up for himself. His length is a problem for opposing players but let's not Rose it up roo much. He got the ball taken away from him with game tied late in the 4th. And was invisible on offense. We need to stay constructive when evaluating. Let's not start making him out to be the next Gerian Grant. Anyine remember all the blow hards with that kid?

No. As one who was very happy with that trade here is what I remember: 1) being happy we moved a struggling SG for a PG who was a fantastic college player and 2) that Grant didnt look very good as a pro.

I dont ever remember gushing about how good Grant was in the NBA, or how he was doing x,y or z in the NBA, or how he was helping us win games. I dont remember Grant being on of the best +/- players in the NBA, or playing top flight defense against elite player in the NBA. I dont remember Grant earning extended minutes while the Knicks won games.

I see zero similarity. Frank's praise and "hope" is coming from wins and his impact on the floor.

My question was does anyone remember the blow hards that propted up Grant after the draft? Or during the first few weeks of season and then went on to excuse all his visible faults? I do, maybe we should bump those threads. And when did I mention anything that you just expanded on? The whole point was something you have said many many times....lets not get all excited so early in the season. Yet the kid has a good game on one side of the floor and he is promounced the better player? lmao

Again, this is a friendly debate on who the better pick was. Not "We hate Frank" vs "We love Frank" We are all Knick fans and if he plays well and we win, we are all happy. But if we are going to have a friendly debate on who is the better player then we need to stop with the inflated analysis and praise of Frank and and the over emphasis on Smiths weaknesses. Fact is, the Frank is fiesty and I like him. But he has a long way to go to catch up to some of the other draft picks, including Smith. As well as other that I wanted. This does not mean I am crying about it every day. Or want Frank to fail. But, right now, Dennis is the better player. Now if we are arguing if Frank helps the team or not, that is a different story. Because I think he does. But I am not going to inflate his worth and say he is the reason we are having such a good start. Some on here are acting like he has been the main reason for the good start? Failing to mention KP's MVP year, Lee's best start since signing on, having a legitimate center that can score, having several guys that can get hot as secondary scorers and a much deeper bench that can all shoot the three. Not to mention how its a given that we would all of a sudden be winless if we had picked Smith, Mitchell or Monk instead. Nah.


Frank and Jack started getting minutes, our offense and defense starting looking better, we started winning games. I'd say you have to give Frank a decent amount of credit for out turnaround. Dennis Smith is a better scorer, but both players leave a lot to be desired in that category. To say that DSJ is better outright is wrong. For all the Marbury comparisons, id say Marbury was a better playmaker in college and his rookie year than DSJ. Defense and passing goes to Frank hands down. DSJ is facing a much steeper curve than Frank when it comes to the mental aspects of the position. Lastly, the comparisons are getting tiresome. DSJ'S team sucks and I really have no interest in anything that goes over there anymore. Let's stop focusing on a struggling rookie on a crappy team every time Frank and Knicks have a bad game.
This. Combined with the #s that are glowing about Frank's impact. Go back and read some of the posts in this thread. Some folks got a lot of skin in the game and its old and annoying, especially when Frank is showing to be everything the player DSjr is. They are completely different but since Frank's minutes have come the impact has been undeniable.

Skin in the game? True, yiu have the most. Lol

You mean the #'s where Frank and KP are +44? By that measure Dotson had the most impact as he and KP were +53. And btw updated combo numbers Lee and KP are +25. LT and KP +24. Frank and KP +23.

Amd I Repeat, this is not about his positive influence. So do yiu think KP scoring over 30 every game and shooting 50% and Kanter monster games habe had less influence?

Im sorry your not making sense. IF its not about his positive influence what is it about? Thats all I care about. Not AAU ball hogging babies that get their numbers. Ive had my share of them. I want guys who win. I have said repeatedly I would have been good with whoever we drafted. I am not fan of Phil but we drafted well under him and I think we got it right again. Frank's offense is way behind the other 3 guys, but his passing and play making might be the best of the 4. His defense is already at a high level for NBA standards, which at 19 with his barely developed body is unreal. These AAU kids have been scoring since they were 11. Frank is from a different mold and a different mindset.

You can say aw shucks fishmike thats really sweet but give me the guy who's a dominating player. Im saying we are seeing in the numbers that Frank is bringing just as much to the table as the other 3 guys.

Frank plays off the bench. He gets more time with KOQ than KP and Kanter.

In the last 6 games (since the Houston loss) Knicks are 4-2.
They are +43 with Frank on the floor during that 6 game stretch.
For all Frank's offensive woes he's shot 44% in the 4th qtr, and 40% (4-10) from 3 in the 4th
During that 6 game stretch Frank is averaging 23mpg. Just under half the PG time.

What I am saying is Frank is hitting his stride.
The changes to our FG% and opposing FG% with Frank on off the floor is dramatic. We are better on both sides of the ball.

Knicks are winning games.

Also... not sure if I mentioned it, but the Knicks are winning games.

Dennis Smith with another big scoring game last night. Another Mavs loss. Patty Mills dropped 19, the dude averages like 9ppg. Smith Jr had 2 assists and 6 turnovers. Im good with Frank!!!!!!

Oh... Knicks are winning. Smith's dunks are otherworldly. So were KP's putback dunks over guy's backs, and we were losing then also. I am enjoying the wins more.

Why are you pretending you dont know what this is all about. Its about who is the better player/prospect. So far Frank has been a solid ROLE player. My point was that you jabe to stop making it sound like he has taken over games with his play. Or that the team would be doimg worse witj Smith on the team. I think they would be even better r8gjt now witj Smith or Mitchell. Btw. Guys that are losing a debate usually resort to emotional stuff like "Ball hogging babies". Specially whem stats dont bacl it up. Nor can it be said of anyome watching him play. I've heard that made up perspective from many on jere before. Same **** people were saying about Lowry, Irving, amd LT. All that "they dont defend" and "let me show you the efficiency numbers" crap.Your missing the whole point. But Probably not. You just like changing the narrative when losing the argument. This thread is about who is the BETER player Smith or Frank. NOT who the better team is. Or ahould we start a whos better Harrison Barnes or LT thread and declare LT better. Or Lebron vs Lee amd declare Lee the wimmer because of gis COMBO stats. Using these type of stats we can come up with another 100 examples of mediocre players that are better than stars. But AGAIN, this is not about hating the Kid or within he fails or not rooting for him. Its about who "I" tgink is the better player and my preferred pick. I hope he proves me wrong. So far I can't say that he has.

Btw, your clearly not watching the Dallas games. Mills was not covered by Smith fyi.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
The Official Frank Ntilikina Versus DSJr Thread

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