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The Official Frank Ntilikina Versus DSJr Thread
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newyorknewyork
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10/31/2017  11:03 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/31/2017  11:50 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Welpee wrote:If DSJr had a monster game people would jump all over it. Last night he puts up 17 min, 2 pts, 1 assist, 4 to, -21 +/- and not a peep? Not to mention Dallas is now 1-7.
yea he's just another guy on another team. There were a lot of dudes saying dumb stuff... how not picking him would set us back many years, how Frank was only a wingspan guy, wasnt a PG and my favorite "is only a triangle pick."

Who cares... Frank is here, at 19 playing in the NBA and looks great. He's a true PG, he's shown a drive, a jumper, court vision, great defense and great size. He's a cool dude and all about team. Who knows what his upside is or how good be becomes, but I feel pretty good about the guy we drafted.

Wait wait wait. So Frank 5,2,2( See Nix's many posts of video) and he is now better. I mean I like Frank but lets staty the course. And what happened to all the talk of "Lets wait while to see who pans out" when DSJR has a good game? Lmao. But yes, Dallas is not a good team. If you watch the games, Dirk looks like he broke his hip. But DSJR has been a very good fascilitator, thus far. And yes, he had a bad game. I really hope tha Frank proves me wrong. But my point has always been, the 8th pick is where you take a guy that can be a break out star not a solid defender that can be had in later rounds. So far, bad game or not, if you watch both guys, DSJR seems like he has that break out star potential and Frank seems like the solid defender.

Eyes of the beholder. For me, Frank being a solid defender is the rock bottom of what he could be.

I agree. And btw, this banter is not about Frank, imo. He is a Knick and I will always root for him. This back and forth with Fish (Or anyone else) is about the 8th pick. As I have said many times, think that a player like Frank (Average offensive game but athletic in build for defense) could have been obtained with a later pick. (See DOTSON).

To me its like an NFL team picking a lineman as their first round pick. Yes they are extremely important but to me, I see your first rounder as a QB, RB or WR. Guys that can impact the game with one play. Linemans can be taken in later rounds. Do you pick Steph Curry, who was considered undersized and one dimensional or an Earl Clark, who was considered a physical specimen, in 2009?

This is where we disagree. I don't think you can find Frank's in the later rounds. Dotson is 23 years old. When Dotson was 19 he wouldn't have been drafted, let alone a first round pick, let alone a lottery pick. When Frank is 23 he would be going into his 5th season in the NBA and still not be in his prime yet.

There aren't many examples of a 19 yr old 6'5 floor general with his IQ, with a 7ft wingspan who are had late in the draft in today's NBA. I'm guessing you are speaking on his overall impact or potential or skill set? But the truth is we don't know what Frank's potential is because he is rare. There have been more Dennis Smiths come into the league then there have been Franks.

Not to mention, Smith played a yr in the NCAA, played all summer league, played in preseason. So he was expected to be waay further along than Frank is right now. The fact that the gap doesn't seem thaat wide at this moment even though Frank missed all of that is a testament to Frank. But I also believe Smith is a little nicked up.

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technomaster
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10/31/2017  11:35 AM
DSJr has been stumbling a bit. His averages of ~11ppg/6apg/3rpg are pretty solid for a rookie, though his shooting percentages (39%fg, 45%ft, 22%3pt) are not so good. He's reportedly been having issues with his surgically repaired knee.

I think the talent evaluators drafted him roughly where he should have gone. Had he never torn his ACL, he might have been drafted several slots higher.

As far as Ntilikina is concerned, there have been a number of big PGs drafted over the years - remember we drafted Jerian Grant just a couple of years ago? When you read his pre-draft scouting report, you could have written it about Ntilikina - except the part around age. Grant was one of the oldest in his draft class (23), while Ntilikina is among the youngest.

And in this year's draft, Lonzo Ball at 6'6" is actually taller than Ntilikina, though his 6'9" wingspan is shorter than Frank's absurd 7' wingspan. Ball is basically viewed as Jason Kidd reincarnated. I'm not quite sure what we have with Ntilikina as an offensive player. They say he's a good shooter and pick and roll player, but do we see him as a steady PG or someone who could score 15-20ppg in his prime and be a solid 2nd or 3rd option (Tony Parker?)?

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martin
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10/31/2017  12:08 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Welpee wrote:If DSJr had a monster game people would jump all over it. Last night he puts up 17 min, 2 pts, 1 assist, 4 to, -21 +/- and not a peep? Not to mention Dallas is now 1-7.
yea he's just another guy on another team. There were a lot of dudes saying dumb stuff... how not picking him would set us back many years, how Frank was only a wingspan guy, wasnt a PG and my favorite "is only a triangle pick."

Who cares... Frank is here, at 19 playing in the NBA and looks great. He's a true PG, he's shown a drive, a jumper, court vision, great defense and great size. He's a cool dude and all about team. Who knows what his upside is or how good be becomes, but I feel pretty good about the guy we drafted.

Wait wait wait. So Frank 5,2,2( See Nix's many posts of video) and he is now better. I mean I like Frank but lets staty the course. And what happened to all the talk of "Lets wait while to see who pans out" when DSJR has a good game? Lmao. But yes, Dallas is not a good team. If you watch the games, Dirk looks like he broke his hip. But DSJR has been a very good fascilitator, thus far. And yes, he had a bad game. I really hope tha Frank proves me wrong. But my point has always been, the 8th pick is where you take a guy that can be a break out star not a solid defender that can be had in later rounds. So far, bad game or not, if you watch both guys, DSJR seems like he has that break out star potential and Frank seems like the solid defender.

Eyes of the beholder. For me, Frank being a solid defender is the rock bottom of what he could be.

I agree. And btw, this banter is not about Frank, imo. He is a Knick and I will always root for him. This back and forth with Fish (Or anyone else) is about the 8th pick. As I have said many times, think that a player like Frank (Average offensive game but athletic in build for defense) could have been obtained with a later pick. (See DOTSON).

To me its like an NFL team picking a lineman as their first round pick. Yes they are extremely important but to me, I see your first rounder as a QB, RB or WR. Guys that can impact the game with one play. Linemans can be taken in later rounds. Do you pick Steph Curry, who was considered undersized and one dimensional or an Earl Clark, who was considered a physical specimen, in 2009?

Again, eyes of the beholder. IMHO You are limiting Frank's upside potential. He is not explosive, won't throw a super dunk down like DSJr. High limit potential: elite defender, can run an offense, high percentage shooter.

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Chandler
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10/31/2017  12:14 PM
Magic Johnson wasn't explosive; neither was Jason Kidd; Steph Curry?; Chris Paul (not what I would call him) the list goes on

Let Frank play to his strengths which are brains and length. He's contributing and getting better

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
BigDaddyG
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10/31/2017  12:25 PM
technomaster wrote:DSJr has been stumbling a bit. His averages of ~11ppg/6apg/3rpg are pretty solid for a rookie, though his shooting percentages (39%fg, 45%ft, 22%3pt) are not so good. He's reportedly been having issues with his surgically repaired knee.

I think the talent evaluators drafted him roughly where he should have gone. Had he never torn his ACL, he might have been drafted several slots higher.

As far as Ntilikina is concerned, there have been a number of big PGs drafted over the years - remember we drafted Jerian Grant just a couple of years ago? When you read his pre-draft scouting report, you could have written it about Ntilikina - except the part around age. Grant was one of the oldest in his draft class (23), while Ntilikina is among the youngest.

And in this year's draft, Lonzo Ball at 6'6" is actually taller than Ntilikina, though his 6'9" wingspan is shorter than Frank's absurd 7' wingspan. Ball is basically viewed as Jason Kidd reincarnated. I'm not quite sure what we have with Ntilikina as an offensive player. They say he's a good shooter and pick and roll player, but do we see him as a steady PG or someone who could score 15-20ppg in his prime and be a solid 2nd or 3rd option (Tony Parker?)?


In some ways he reminds me of mike bibby. Im not saying their the same player or have much in common. Bibby was a better athlete and Frank is bigger. But i see similarities in the way they run the pick and roll with patience. Bibby wasn't the fastest, but he could penetrate. He did so at his own pace. He had no problem stepping back and taking the jumper when it was there. In fact, i remember he killed the Lakers with that play in the playoffs. He was also compared to another point guard drafted after in Jason Williams. Williams was flashier, a better athlete and more entertaining. But he didn't learn how to play winning ball like Bibby until later in his career.

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10/31/2017  12:28 PM
Chandler wrote:Magic Johnson wasn't explosive; neither was Jason Kidd; Steph Curry?; Chris Paul (not what I would call him) the list goes on

Let Frank play to his strengths which are brains and length. He's contributing and getting better

I think frank is so unique, I have a feeling we will be in for a treat like no other like KP the world is his oyster. Some hard work and I cant imagine how good he will be by 22. The K Leonard of pg’s with j Kidd like vision a true floor general with sharpshooting ability. But most importantly a winning team first mentality

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10/31/2017  12:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/31/2017  12:39 PM
Smith jr is having troubles with his knee now.

Smith may have the better upside now, but I like Frank over the long haul. He is the 4th piece to a solid starting five. The truth is that if NY could find the right 3 and D SF, they would be a playoff team now, thanks to Kanter, KP, Hardaway, Jack and Lee and KOQ (edit)

Frank does not hurt the team when he is in the game. His D is getting contagious.

Yet another mistake by Dolan. When will it end?
Chandler
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10/31/2017  12:36 PM
fitzfarm wrote:
Chandler wrote:Magic Johnson wasn't explosive; neither was Jason Kidd; Steph Curry?; Chris Paul (not what I would call him) the list goes on

Let Frank play to his strengths which are brains and length. He's contributing and getting better

I think frank is so unique, I have a feeling we will be in for a treat like no other like KP the world is his oyster. Some hard work and I cant imagine how good he will be by 22. The K Leonard of pg’s with j Kidd like vision a true floor general with sharpshooting ability. But most importantly a winning team first mentality

I agree. Can only hope at this point but his D against Wade the other night was amazing -- real competitor, no deer-in-the-headlights

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
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10/31/2017  2:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/31/2017  2:40 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Welpee wrote:If DSJr had a monster game people would jump all over it. Last night he puts up 17 min, 2 pts, 1 assist, 4 to, -21 +/- and not a peep? Not to mention Dallas is now 1-7.
yea he's just another guy on another team. There were a lot of dudes saying dumb stuff... how not picking him would set us back many years, how Frank was only a wingspan guy, wasnt a PG and my favorite "is only a triangle pick."

Who cares... Frank is here, at 19 playing in the NBA and looks great. He's a true PG, he's shown a drive, a jumper, court vision, great defense and great size. He's a cool dude and all about team. Who knows what his upside is or how good be becomes, but I feel pretty good about the guy we drafted.

Wait wait wait. So Frank 5,2,2( See Nix's many posts of video) and he is now better. I mean I like Frank but lets staty the course. And what happened to all the talk of "Lets wait while to see who pans out" when DSJR has a good game? Lmao. But yes, Dallas is not a good team. If you watch the games, Dirk looks like he broke his hip. But DSJR has been a very good fascilitator, thus far. And yes, he had a bad game. I really hope tha Frank proves me wrong. But my point has always been, the 8th pick is where you take a guy that can be a break out star not a solid defender that can be had in later rounds. So far, bad game or not, if you watch both guys, DSJR seems like he has that break out star potential and Frank seems like the solid defender.

Eyes of the beholder. For me, Frank being a solid defender is the rock bottom of what he could be.

I agree. And btw, this banter is not about Frank, imo. He is a Knick and I will always root for him. This back and forth with Fish (Or anyone else) is about the 8th pick. As I have said many times, think that a player like Frank (Average offensive game but athletic in build for defense) could have been obtained with a later pick. (See DOTSON).

To me its like an NFL team picking a lineman as their first round pick. Yes they are extremely important but to me, I see your first rounder as a QB, RB or WR. Guys that can impact the game with one play. Linemans can be taken in later rounds. Do you pick Steph Curry, who was considered undersized and one dimensional or an Earl Clark, who was considered a physical specimen, in 2009?

This is where we disagree. I don't think you can find Frank's in the later rounds. Dotson is 23 years old. When Dotson was 19 he wouldn't have been drafted, let alone a first round pick, let alone a lottery pick. When Frank is 23 he would be going into his 5th season in the NBA and still not be in his prime yet.

There aren't many examples of a 19 yr old 6'5 floor general with his IQ, with a 7ft wingspan who are had late in the draft in today's NBA. I'm guessing you are speaking on his overall impact or potential or skill set? But the truth is we don't know what Frank's potential is because he is rare. There have been more Dennis Smiths come into the league then there have been Franks.

Not to mention, Smith played a yr in the NCAA, played all summer league, played in preseason. So he was expected to be waay further along than Frank is right now. The fact that the gap doesn't seem thaat wide at this moment even though Frank missed all of that is a testament to Frank. But I also believe Smith is a little nicked up.

Hopefully your right. But so far he has played like an athletic second rounder. But agreed. 19 years old is impressive. And he has shown a lot potential. Cant keep repeating this enough. I hope he turns out to be better, the last 2 games gives me confidence. My argument was on the rational of the type of pick. But that is just IMHO.

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10/31/2017  6:18 PM
You just cannot evaluate Frank with using his age as a primary consideration. For those of us over the age of say 25, think of how much more --of a man -- you become from around 18 to 23. Physically, mentally emotionally. That this kid seems to have the physical gifts and skills to be a very good player at his age -- well who can set the limit? Since he apparently works hard, I'm very optimistic. But his best is a few years away.
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11/1/2017  2:03 PM
Happy for his contributions, and impressed with his vision, but cannot help but notice the issues are still real that we saw in the scouting reports (videos) regarding keeping his handle. That one sequence was quite jarring to see for a PG.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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11/2/2017  1:15 AM
8 assists and FIVE steals tonight against Harden and the Rockets. I see Hornacek using him more and more. His defense is already elite and I believe that his offense will get better almost by the game for the next few years. He's a real treasure!
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11/2/2017  5:46 AM
reub wrote:8 assists and FIVE steals tonight against Harden and the Rockets. I see Hornacek using him more and more. His defense is already elite and I believe that his offense will get better almost by the game for the next few years. He's a real treasure!

His defense is the real deal and his vision is better than I expected the concerns about his ability to score and handle are legitimate

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Ira
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11/2/2017  6:40 AM
Frank needs to work on his shot. He had improved his shot to where it was good when he joined the French national team. I think he's been neglecting it to work on other parts of his game.
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11/2/2017  10:27 AM
I honestly have zero problems with the way Frank's progressing

He should be focusing on D and team mgmt. first. Besides our need for D, it will help team chemistry as the last thing this team needs is a pg most concerned with his own shot.

for now, he should be making the other team pay, if they ignore him; nothing more aggressive than that

K.Leonard started out as D-first player; and if frank turns out to be half the player of Leonard that's awesome

I think it was at the end of the 3d quarter when Harden tried to cross him up with some razzle dazzle and Frank stuck his squid-arm in there and poked it away -- same as he did multiple times with Wade

those are two players with elite handles

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
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11/2/2017  10:31 AM
Chandler wrote:I honestly have zero problems with the way Frank's progressing

He should be focusing on D and team mgmt. first. Besides our need for D, it will help team chemistry as the last thing this team needs is a pg most concerned with his own shot.

for now, he should be making the other team pay, if they ignore him; nothing more aggressive than that

K.Leonard started out as D-first player; and if frank turns out to be half the player of Leonard that's awesome

I think it was at the end of the 3d quarter when Harden tried to cross him up with some razzle dazzle and Frank stuck his squid-arm in there and poked it away -- same as he did multiple times with Wade

those are two players with elite handles

The thing with Frank is that his reach is deceptive the way he positions himself is ideal for steals with arms out....when he stripped Harden going up for the 3 on the left wing you can see it...at the end of the third he held his ground as Harden could not get the handle tight enuff to get around his length....same with D wade...when Frank learns how not jump on the hessys and fakes....he will lock MFer's DOWN

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11/2/2017  10:35 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
reub wrote:8 assists and FIVE steals tonight against Harden and the Rockets. I see Hornacek using him more and more. His defense is already elite and I believe that his offense will get better almost by the game for the next few years. He's a real treasure!

His defense is the real deal and his vision is better than I expected the concerns about his ability to score and handle are legitimate

His handle is great. Scoring is a wait and see. There is a speed of game adjustment he needs to make with his shooting. It make come it may not. He certainly doesnt seem to lack any tool that would hinder his offense.

I was concerned about his handle at first, but I think its great and I like how he uses his length to pass over or around other players.

Frank is 19. He was not drafted to be Lebron. What looks great is he's showing what he was drafted for at an NBA level... at 19. You see his defense and length he could be one of the best stoppers. Ever. Thats kinda exciting.

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11/2/2017  10:39 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/2/2017  11:43 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
reub wrote:8 assists and FIVE steals tonight against Harden and the Rockets. I see Hornacek using him more and more. His defense is already elite and I believe that his offense will get better almost by the game for the next few years. He's a real treasure!

His defense is the real deal and his vision is better than I expected the concerns about his ability to score and handle are legitimate

Handles can be developed and while he'll probably never be an elite scorer you really don't need 20 ppg from him. Just look at Rondo. Why people expect him to be a finished product at age 19 and 7 games into his career beats me.
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11/2/2017  11:02 AM
fishmike wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
reub wrote:8 assists and FIVE steals tonight against Harden and the Rockets. I see Hornacek using him more and more. His defense is already elite and I believe that his offense will get better almost by the game for the next few years. He's a real treasure!

His defense is the real deal and his vision is better than I expected the concerns about his ability to score and handle are legitimate

His handle is great. Scoring is a wait and see. There is a speed of game adjustment he needs to make with his shooting. It make come it may not. He certainly doesnt seem to lack any tool that would hinder his offense.

I was concerned about his handle at first, but I think its great and I like how he uses his length to pass over or around other players.

Frank is 19. He was not drafted to be Lebron. What looks great is he's showing what he was drafted for at an NBA level... at 19. You see his defense and length he could be one of the best stoppers. Ever. Thats kinda exciting.

This is right. On draft night, I debuted a Kawhi Leonard comparison. Frank has defensive potential beyond just good and those margins may warp that end of the floor.

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11/2/2017  12:43 PM
Welpee wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
reub wrote:8 assists and FIVE steals tonight against Harden and the Rockets. I see Hornacek using him more and more. His defense is already elite and I believe that his offense will get better almost by the game for the next few years. He's a real treasure!

His defense is the real deal and his vision is better than I expected the concerns about his ability to score and handle are legitimate

Handles can be developed and while he'll probably never be an elite scorer you really don't need 20 ppg from him. Just look at Rondo. Why people expect him to be a finished product at age 19 and 7 games into his career beats me.

good point but I don't like the Rondo comparison -- Rondo simply can't shoot reliably

Frank can shoot. He needs to find some rhythm of when to look for his shot and when not too (that will come). He needs to learn to use his length to his advantage. Yes he's 6'5" or so but with those arms he must have an amazing standing reach for a point guard. Like KP he will be able to shoot over opponents without having to jump over them. Nice little floater in the lane under control and well balanced for transition or rebound if he misses (as opposed to the kamikaze approach of D. Rose and his ilk, where if they don't score they create a fast break opportunity for the other team as they crawl back on the court)

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
The Official Frank Ntilikina Versus DSJr Thread

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