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The psychological state of New York Knicks fans
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mlby1215
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10/16/2017  11:11 AM
This is something I thought about for a few months but I didn't really feel like I was prepared to write it down since I think I
have seen something rather hard to explain which is related to the community as a whole. Knicks fans, in general, are a bunch of weird animals. We seems to love and hate people for no obvious reasons. Such as Cole Aldrich, I still don't understand why people was madly in love with him at the time. He was not a bad guy. He was a okay guy. That is it. The hate lists includes someone like Jose Calderón, Sasha and Noah. They are okay guys too. Gentlemen. Sometimes they played badly but who wouldn't when he was a Knicks?

Knicks fans tend to be player-oriented, and it really shows. I don't think Melo fans are not Knicks fans. I don't think they (or KP fans or Willy fans or anyone) pretend they are Knicks fans. I think they are all real Knicks fans. But for some reasons, they cares about their particular players to a extent that it is not easy to explain.

I have a theory and It probably needs a lot of examination but I think the reasoning behind it is strong. It is all due to the difficult situation this team are always in. New York Knicks was and is a bad team. Bad team are everywhere but I feel like we often lost in a very embarrassing way. We often just gave it up, like having 12 - 32, in first quarter. The team sometimes played in a way that it had no pride, almost like the team wanted the game finished faster and then go home.

Frustrated, anger, emptiness. I think Knicks fans are familiar with those words.

In short, I think we try to escape from those negative emotions by narrowly focusing our attention on a few players instead. When looking at a single player, we again start to feel better because of his own successful story. ( If you are playing in NBA, you are already successful. )

I am going to use an example to illustrate this.

https://www.postingandtoasting.com/2017/10/8/16445768/nets-117-knicks-83-scenes-from-an-injury-marred-blowout

It came from postingandtoasting.com, another knicks fans site. The writer is Joe Flynn a.k.a China Joe. He is super anti-Phil, pro-Melo but it is another topic.

The writing is a short report about that preseason game, Nets 117 Knicks 83. I think people still remember that game and probably no one wants to, though.

Honestly, what could he say about that game? "We suck" is only two words. He needed to write a little bit longer than that. So he wrote about something positive, like Willy had 17pt and 12 rebounds , THjr had some turnovers but okay, Dotson was okay, something something. At last, he showed some highlight of KP to pump up the morale.

The writing is very typical. Nothing special. We probably talked about that game like he wrote. However, it perfectly shows the psychological shift I am going to talk about.

When the team is bad, embarrassingly bad, we just avoid to look at it, and then we try to refocus on something else, like a good performance from a individual player. It is just a human nature. People want to be related to a winner (a player), not a loser (the team). I mean, no one wants to be a loser. Everybody just want to escape from this feeling.

So it means the more loss the team has, the more we just focus on a few good players. At the past, the guy was Melo - for some basketball reasons I am not good enough to explain - it almost looks like he played balls in another dimension. He could play extremely well but the team lost or he could play extremely bad but the team still won. In short, he was the perfect guy for our mind to escape into. If the game is too ugly to watch, how about we just watch him play? Sometimes it seems he could score in a impossible way. His talents is truly amazing, sometimes. (sigh)


Typically, people probably talk like that.

"Today, Knicks lost again."
"Yeah, I know."
"But at least Melo had 25pts. "
"Yeah, KP had 4 blocks too. "
"Sure. They are our only hope. "

Then we look at a player long enough, we start to have attachment to that player. We feel like we really love him, like he is the only light in the eternal darkness. I THINK it is how a knick fans turns to be a Melo fan. Keep in mind that that guy still is a Knicks fan. I am pretty sure there is no fake Knicks fan in this world. I mean, come on, who would want to pretend he is a Knicks fan? We are not GSW.

Looking someone long enough, it turns into a habit, and then it turns into devoted love. KP is our new target. I don't necessarily a bad thing. I assume it is what a sporting fan does. But it has some very bad influence to the team, and the community. And I am going to give an example at below.


We always needed a point guard. Last season, when Knicks realized D.Rose was not suitable for that job, they wanted to make a trade. People threw around a lot of names. (Keep in mind that I am not talking about here. I mean in the internet , in general ) People really hated D.Rose (yeah, he is on the hate list) because they thought he didn't pass the ball to KP. They wanted to find another point guard.

Now we step back a little bit and look at other contenders. In "modern brand of basketballs", almost every good team has a very offense-minded attacking point guard. (Phil called it decisive attack guard? ) The guy is always the first or second option to his team.

Curry: 1 or 2
CP3 : 1 or 2
Kyrie : 2
Thomas: 1
Westbrook: 111111

The only exception was Rocket (They have one now) and Spur. But Harden actually was the one holding the balls on offense and Tony Parker is still very dangerous. So it seems that if you want to play "modern brand of basketballs " instead "slow outdated triangle", you should find a first or second options attack guard , right? Knicks fans would suggest something like that, right?

NO.

People threw around a lot of adv. stats and win share or something fancy to against old stupid Phil but suddenly they wanted a pass-first point guard, like Ricky Rubio. He is very good at everything except shooting the ball. He would be the fifth option at best, behind Melo, KP, Willy and Lee. His type is dying. There is no Jason Kidd anymore.

It is really weird. When it comes to the duty of point guards, suddenly we all went old-school. We think he should just pass, and let other score.

The reason is that while we are all Knicks fans, we are also a fan of our favorite player in secret. A lot of us wanted a PG who could pass the ball to Melo, KP or other favorite player to score, to pump up their stats. We talked about building a team, but actually we wanted to build a team which is a perfect situation for our respective favorite sons.

Here, keep in mind that I am not calling names or I am not saying anyone has done anything wrong. I just try to illustrate the problem. In the age of internet, what the mass wants have a lot of power to the decision makers, collectively. It really affects the game plan, like decrease the trade value of our players or increase the trade value of another players. (Everyone and his dog knew we wanted to throw away D.Rose to get Rubio, of course their stance was tough and hard. They knew we badly wanted it. )

It is just the first drawback when you devoted love is too strong for one player, but I am going to hit the send button, then take a break and write the second part.

AUTOADVERT
Nalod
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10/16/2017  11:22 AM
some fans are starphuchers and get caught up on the hype. When done, they are bitter and embarrassed.
Some still defend the Star. Melo love was like that.
To me Melo played for the knicks. I root for him as a knick. Not as a knugget. I suppose I'll be both happy if OKC succeeds, and if they fail.
Really, I don't care.
I only care about knicks taking care of their business.
I thought phil was a great concept badly executed. By him.
But he did good things by not doing too much bad.
Some of us older fans see phil as a knick. Younger fans hate him because he was the arrogant Bull coach who slayed us.
There are fans who want to be "Right" more than the team to succeed if they feel they have a take on a player. IF "I don't think PHil will succeed" becomes more important than the team succeeding then you have "That type" of fan.
We are crazy bunch.
Im good as long as we are moving forward. IM good as long as we are moving backwards with purpose.
We will fall back some this season, but the kids need to play now.
Anger sells, don't buy!
mlby1215
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10/16/2017  12:53 PM
The second drawback is that we make the coaching jobs very difficult, REAL difficult.

Last season, Woj wrote something like "When players needed teaching and directions, Rambis only knew how to yell. " It was interesting. I thought a lot about he said. Of course he was inciting. He wanted people feel angry, and of course, he lied. Rambis won 4 champs as a player and 2 champ as a assistant coach. 6 rings are good enough to confirm he knows more than yelling. But why did woj write it that way? It is a weird thing to say, as if he assumed NBA players are children.

If a guy served in army, then he came back and said "When I needed teaching and directions, they only knew how to yell at me." I think everyone would look at him strangely. Come on, you are a grown ass man. Don't tell me being yelled would kill you.

So, why did woj say so? Because he knew what Knicks fans are in secret.

Parents.

We are not very far from some crazy parents who yell at the coach because "The coach is mean to my son" "They don't treat my son well." "My son deserves better than that." The parents think they are helping their sons by giving pressure to the coach.

It really looks like what we always wanted to do.

Again, I use an example, and it is about the defense.

The defense of Knicks are always bad. Our offense sometimes are good, sometime are bad but defense are always bad. What is the difference between Offense and Defense? A team probably needs only 1 or 2 guys to play good offense, but it really needs five guys to play good defense.

In short, defense need teamwork. Individuals help but teamwork is the most important thing. Step Curry is not a very good defender but GSW defense is real good.

So it means Knicks lacks teamwork. Keep in mind that I didn't say we don't need individuals. It is just that we don't have teamwork.

Where does teamwork come from? I think it is just like army training. You need disciplines. Take your order. Do your part. No question asked.

But it is easier to ask young man to do that in a army than asking a young man to do the same in NBA because NBA players are different.

What is NBA players? they have many kinds but they always have 2 things in common.

1) They know how to play basketballs.
2) They are all too young to have too much money.


The second point is very important. It means as a coach he is really difficult to exercise his authority. He requires the discipline to do his job but the balance of power is not on his side. The difference of income is huge. Players can ignore you if they want to.

Their only weapon is that they can control the minutes of a player. If you don't follow the game plan, you will not play, or something like that. A coach cannot ban a player or cut off his income because players unions. So it is the ONLY weapon to make sure the team has disciplines.

Then we go back to history. It is about Rambis.

We really didn't hate him when he was an assistant coach to Fisher. Actually we didn't know him at all. It is just like, how many of us can name the name of all assistant coaches Jeff have? For many of us, 2014-15 was awful, but Rambis was innocent and, well, not important.

When Fisher got replaced by Rambis, we celebrated, like we celebrated about the firing of Phil Jackson. We said something like "fresh air", "He is fair and tough", "finally have a coach, not a robot."

For many, it is distant memory. We liked him, for a while. When did the public opinion change?

José Calderón.

Remember that name, right? the guy we once hated the most. distant memory, again. Looking back, why did we hate him? Because he was not good enough? Come on, even CP3 probably couldn't save that 17-65 team.

We really hated Rambis when he refused to play our first round pick, Jerian Grant, the guy we thought would be our future. We cursed, we rioted, we said every dirty words in the universe to him, like a crazy father knew his son got rejected because favoritism. This Rambis must have wanted to pump his win/lose so he played Jose instead of Grant, Fu ck him!!

Or maybe , he was just trying to use his only weapon to discipline his player? He did not murder Jerian Grant. Probably he just required his PG to do his job, like follow the game plan and play defense? Besides, playing time is not always good for a player. If a player plays, he cannot train. If he trains, he doesn't have enough energy to play. This is why the training is always very light in season.

But no, we attacked him. To this day, we still attack him. We really want to ruin his career. we still badmouth him whenever we can. Just because he didn't play Jerian Grant at the time. They really make me see the dark side of human being.

THjr went to D-league and then learned how to defense. This kind of story will never happen to us. Sending our favorite sons to D-league to learn how to play defense? Knicks fans will riot.

To this day, THjr is a better player just because, you know, something happened to him which would never happen when he wore Knicks uniform.

This is the second part.

In short, we castrate our coaches, then we mourn our players lack of disciplines. It is all come from we devoted love to our respective favorite sons, like a bunch of crazy parents.

Don't blame Jeff goes too easy for his players. He knows what happened to Rambis, and Phil.

The third and fourth part will be on next day. It is draining to write that long.

mlby1215
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10/16/2017  1:06 PM
I am not old enough to see him play as a Knicks but I have read his books. He talked a lot how Red Holzman drove him around in the city. He talked a lot how the days as a Knicks changed him forever.

His love to Knicks is true. The guy is not a bad guy but Knicks fans are crazy parents. At the end I think It is not about a game plan at all. It is not about basketballs at all. It is about the cultural difference and generations gap.

Nalod wrote:Some of us older fans see phil as a knick. Younger fans hate him because he was the arrogant Bull coach who slayed us.
There are fans who want to be "Right" more than the team to succeed if they feel they have a take on a player. IF "I don't think PHil will succeed" becomes more important than the team succeeding then you have "That type" of fan.
We are crazy bunch.
Nalod
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10/16/2017  1:19 PM
mlby1215, Good take.
I have written often about "Blame" and the assignment of it. Its hardly knick fans exclusive.
Its easy to point and blame, but another to actually fix it.
For knick fans we really don't know the actual culprit. We thought Rambis was here for only being friends with Phil and yet the man is an accomplished person with 6 rings, was a head coach in a bad situation, and one he did not help. But we assume Rambis was what Rambis is today. Coaches can't grow?
Why did he yell? Was KP at fault with his exit? If Rambis was a problem, why did we keep him? Dolan let PHil walk out with 24million and Rambis makes about a mil a year? If Jeff did not want him, certainly the time to speak up would be offered to him.
I don't have the answers and we read the same stuff but some of us take away absolutes where others just more questions.

We are full of optimism yet the reality is the team might not win but 15 games. Our New GM kind of hinted that we need to be patient. I think we are tanking.
That means Jeff is in a bad situation.

Anger sells, don't buy!
arkrud
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10/16/2017  2:57 PM
The problem we fans see with our team are not happening in the Garden.
They are happening in our small minds.
It is hard to get the detailed picture and accept that the state of the team is objective reality and not the result of some evil people conspiracy.
We are sport fans to have fun not to spend time analyzing and god forbid supporting team building process over immediate pleasure of winning now.
Rather we will chase the evil people away and rejoice.
Organizations who are truing to please the fans age doomed to mediocrity.

Every child is taught if you try to please everyone, you end up upsetting everyone.
Richard Engel
He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
fwk00
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10/16/2017  4:53 PM
There are Knick archetypes that need to be identified that are often confused as Knicks fans.

Exhibit A.) The ticket scalpers, their primary motivation is driving up ticket prices and they've succeeded for decades in the star-phuck revolving door of useless but recognizable players who sell tickets for cheap thrills. As long as the cash keeps flowing they are good. This year will be hell for the coaches and management because of this cohort - loud, obnoxious, and toxic on social media.

Exhibit B.) A hostile NY media. They sell their wares by inventing dysfunction, capitalizing on misfortune, rewriting sports history, and constant recrimination and caustic criticism. They enrage the general public into thinking the Knicks are hopeless, dysfunctional, and in perpetual chaos.

Exhibit C.) The whip masters - the Individuals who pick out a whipping boy from the team, the coaching staff, and the administration that they take round-robin turns at flogging to submission.

Exhibit D.) The fan-boy/fan-girl - blind to performance and team chemistry, these parasites stick so closely with individual players that their compulsive devotion to the player makes it impossible for the coach to coach him, impossible for the management to rid themselves of him, and impossible for the team to work-around him.

HofstraBBall
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10/16/2017  4:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/16/2017  6:25 PM
Imo. You have some general insight but have many more fan types to describe. You may be right about some. Although they may not want to admit it. Fans range from those that are looking for a sports team success to fill the lack of success in their own lives to the fans that could not care less about the teams success and just want to have some fun and a couple of beers watching some basketball. Think to try to classify each type in between is long tasked.

Long time Knick fans who have not witnessed a championship are extremely frustrated but loyal fans. Ofcourse everyone has their own take on the cause of each years failure. But that's what fuels discussion boards like this. If we didn't have different opinions then we would not all enjoy the dialogue. Even, inmy case, when everyone else's opinion is wrong.

Do Think your missing what most of us Melo defenders are really arguing about though. Don't think that there is anyone on here claiming Melo was LBJ or Kobe type level talent. Don't think Melo fans enjoyed bragging that Melo scored 25 but we won 17 games. Melo represents just another example, in our opinion, of what we feel the Knicks franchise failed to do. Mainly the believe that our FO was incapable of building a team around a very good player. Of course we don't think Melo was a the perfect all around player with no deficiencies. We just believed he was one of very few good players, besides STAT, who wanted to come here, and that we may have been able to do something more with better talent around him. Of course we know the FO/Dolan should have waited with Denver and kept assets. Of course we realize there were cap issues. Of course we thought STAT was a big contract to overcome. But most these errors lead back to the FO. So, at least for me, it's attacking the FO as oppose to defending Melos talent or lack of.

Do agree that for most it's not about the knicks success but rather about their record of being right. Many will defend bad judgements or opinions based on what side they are on record for. But that's human nature.

Think this years team is actually rather deep. And although frustrated we are back to 2001, think we have some young guys to root for and good talent to watch.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
TripleThreat
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10/17/2017  12:03 AM
mlby1215 wrote:This is something I thought about for a few months but I didn't really feel like I was prepared to write it down since I think I
have seen something rather hard to explain which is related to the community as a whole. Knicks fans, in general, are a bunch of weird animals. We seems to love and hate people for no obvious reasons.

Most Americans are actually really lousy at math.

Out of the entire legion of Knicks fans around the world, only a very small percentage of them participate online in various forums or sites designed to talk about the Knicks. Out of the people who visit, only a certain percentage even bother to register. Out of those that register, only a small percentage decided to post. Out of those that post, only a small percentage do a majority of the posting.

So when I hear the time honored mindless narrative "blame the fans", I think to myself, you mean blame the same 8-10 guys who do 80 percent of all the posting, out of the tens of thousands upon tens of thousands total fans out there?

The opinions of a few guys ( count guys like Briggs, nixluva, knicks1248 and EnySpree) are not the total reflection of all Knicks fans everywhere. Yes, if you just read the posts of those four, and extended their viewpoints onto all Knicks fans, of course someone on the outside would think all Knicks fans are a bunch of mindless drones who lack any kind of critical thinking skills.

Because someone screams the loudest and longest doesn't mean they actually have something useful to say or share.

A few times, blkexec has said, "Blame the fans!" And I laugh. I literally laugh and think, you mean blame the same 8-9 guys who commit the crime of not thinking exactly like you do?

Sometimes, all you can do is just laugh.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
mlby1215
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10/17/2017  11:18 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/17/2017  11:28 AM
The third part is about management. This part is probably no fans wants to be aligned with. That part is always under Dolan's control.

Before we go further, we step back and look at the structure of a team. There are always three parts.

1) Players
2) Coaches
3) Management

Just like our government having 3 branches, organizations have 3 parts as well, and they hold each other in balance.

A) Players always look to maximize their income, play with very good teammates and win immediately.
B) Coaches wants to win now, but they also look for the future of the team. They are not willing to give up the future in order to strengthen the team now, unless they know they will not be with the team in future. Usually they are ex-players or professional trainers. It means they are pretty old-school, in general. They would require an environment that their authority are respected.
C) Management usually thinks in a long term. They cares about trading, caps and long term financial stability. They doesn't really care about losing, unless they know the owner is impatient about their jobs. They talk to agents, and try to be friendly with the powerful one.

It is easy to see that it would be a lot of conflicts. Players would say " Give me some helps. Take the tax! I need help now! My window is closing!" Management would say "Nah, We really don't have the room, and we have to re-sign our free agents next year. " Coaches in the middle would say " Next year? Will I still have a job next year? They don't listen to me. I really need some vets who knows where to go on the floor. "

If three parts are in balance, the team usually are in a good place. If the management is too strong, the team would look like sh it and not really fun to watch, like LA Clippers at the past or Hinkie's 76ers. If the coaches are too strong, the team would look like in the control of a tyrant and the players look like pawns because they are discarded easily. (It does not happen in NBA since coaches usually are the weakest here)

If the players are too strong, the team would always look to win now, and get some instant help immediately. The team would look for quick fix because the players' life is short and they don't really care about "long term". And, they hate to tank.

No tank. Quick fix. Win now. Trade for instant help.

Do those words make people start to think about something? It all sounds like New York Knicks. Yes, it is very revealing.

People usually assume Dolan is the evil king and the players are abused workers, but the truth is that we always put the players' needs first. On the front, players look like they are helpless. Behind the doors, their power is incredible. They and their agents have a lot of say on how the team operates.

New York Knicks were and are usually dominated and controlled by their superstars.

Before people reject this idea by nature, think about something. Phil Jackson got fired just before the rumor about him willing to trading away KP.

Yes, in these 17 years, New York Knicks probably cared too much about the need of their respective superstars (or their agents) It is true that it is Dolan's fault. (He really likes stars and usually want the former one siting with him to watch the game. )

But at the same time, it is our faults too. we are always on the players' side and assume they are helpless. Come on, they are powerful people, okay? They have money, they have media backing them, they have fans, and they have unions. The real weak guy is actually the coaches. They are nothing if management doesn't support them.

I use an example to illustrate this situation.

We heard a lot about "Knicks did Melo wrong because it didn't give him enough help to win. " It is an interesting take, and I think there are a lot of truth in it.

But fans rarely say "Melo did Knicks wrong because he didn't lead the players Knicks gave him. " It is two-way streets. Knicks are always capped. It means the money are always paid, and every year management and coaches must have asked which players he wanted, or at least they would ask if he wanted to work someone or someone. He would talk about names, like Arron Afflalo. Management thought he could work, but he didn't. It was the fault of the management. But Melo should take some heats too. It is all because he was the most important player of Knicks at the time. Everything were all built around him, and he said the wrong name.

Keep in mind that I am not here to blame the fans. I do not say Melo fans or KP fans or anyone was wrong. I don't want to judge, as it is already too many people throwing around right or wrong to incite the anger. Look at our political climate.

The problem is that in the past 17 years, it seems that Knicks always lacked the balance of power. One "branch" was too big, and made another two too weak. We made quick fix decisions because the players wanted it and to be fair , who could blame them? They just wanted to win. Dolan was not very wise. But our "favorite son" mentality didn't help. We always thought we should find someone to help Melo. But the focus should always be we find someone to help Knicks in the long term instead. Melo (or KP or Nitty or Willy) is not Knicks. They are just a part of Knicks. The team should be above all. However, our devoted love to our favorite sons clouded our mind, and always asked for quick help.

Keep in mind that I am not talking people here. I talked about the internet, local paper and the media.

Another example is about Phil Jackson.

If you step away from players and look at him from the viewpoint of management. He did Knicks no wrong. He always put the team first. He kept picks, caps and tried to hold the disciplines. He were not moved by media, fans or anyone. He just didn't give a sh it. He was a coach, but he put the interest of Knicks above everything, like the leader of management should always do.

He wanted to trade Melo. We were angry and he was fired. Then we wanted to trade Melo.

He wanted to trade KP. To be fair, this dude was only 21 and he skipped the exit meeting and Phil was in the business for 50 years and he haven't seen anyone did it personally. (Actually Shaq did it but he apologized immediately) The attitude of this young dude worried him a lot. He was worried that if KP was so angry he could walk away when the contract is up. So he said he had to "protect the organization." it means we cannot lose KP for nothing. If we are to lose him then at least we should trade him for something now.

But favorite son mentality came in and we were real angry because we thought KP = Knicks. Phil was murdering Knicks. We tried our hardest to push him away and we did it. No one realize management should be open-minded and "buy low sell high". If a player is worth to be traded, then he is valuable. If he is valuable, of course he is a favorite son of many fans. We are not doing Knicks any favor by always empowering the players.

Now, look at what happened and what will happen. KP is the king now. We give him every reason and every incentives to be a diva. He will or will not, but he can.

If he asks Mills throws away some first round picks to get some instant help, Mills will. KP can threaten him that he will not re-sign if he doesn't get any help. Mills will bend his knee, like our pre-Phil management always did. Fans are not on his side. In short, KP will be the new Melo, and the history can repeat itself.

Keep in mind that I am not here to blame KP. It is just human nature. His income and his place in NBA history books are related to his win/loss and the number of his rings. He has to think about himself. However, the balance of power is already broken. If he wants to bring us back to the dark age of New York Knicks, he has the power.

This is the third part. I will try to finish it at the fourth if I have enough energy (and coffee )

BRIGGS
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10/17/2017  2:17 PM
mlby1215 wrote:This is something I thought about for a few months but I didn't really feel like I was prepared to write it down since I think I
have seen something rather hard to explain which is related to the community as a whole. Knicks fans, in general, are a bunch of weird animals. We seems to love and hate people for no obvious reasons. Such as Cole Aldrich, I still don't understand why people was madly in love with him at the time. He was not a bad guy. He was a okay guy. That is it. The hate lists includes someone like Jose Calderón, Sasha and Noah. They are okay guys too. Gentlemen. Sometimes they played badly but who wouldn't when he was a Knicks?

Knicks fans tend to be player-oriented, and it really shows. I don't think Melo fans are not Knicks fans. I don't think they (or KP fans or Willy fans or anyone) pretend they are Knicks fans. I think they are all real Knicks fans. But for some reasons, they cares about their particular players to a extent that it is not easy to explain.

I have a theory and It probably needs a lot of examination but I think the reasoning behind it is strong. It is all due to the difficult situation this team are always in. New York Knicks was and is a bad team. Bad team are everywhere but I feel like we often lost in a very embarrassing way. We often just gave it up, like having 12 - 32, in first quarter. The team sometimes played in a way that it had no pride, almost like the team wanted the game finished faster and then go home.

Frustrated, anger, emptiness. I think Knicks fans are familiar with those words.

In short, I think we try to escape from those negative emotions by narrowly focusing our attention on a few players instead. When looking at a single player, we again start to feel better because of his own successful story. ( If you are playing in NBA, you are already successful. )

I am going to use an example to illustrate this.

https://www.postingandtoasting.com/2017/10/8/16445768/nets-117-knicks-83-scenes-from-an-injury-marred-blowout

It came from postingandtoasting.com, another knicks fans site. The writer is Joe Flynn a.k.a China Joe. He is super anti-Phil, pro-Melo but it is another topic.

The writing is a short report about that preseason game, Nets 117 Knicks 83. I think people still remember that game and probably no one wants to, though.

Honestly, what could he say about that game? "We suck" is only two words. He needed to write a little bit longer than that. So he wrote about something positive, like Willy had 17pt and 12 rebounds , THjr had some turnovers but okay, Dotson was okay, something something. At last, he showed some highlight of KP to pump up the morale.

The writing is very typical. Nothing special. We probably talked about that game like he wrote. However, it perfectly shows the psychological shift I am going to talk about.

When the team is bad, embarrassingly bad, we just avoid to look at it, and then we try to refocus on something else, like a good performance from a individual player. It is just a human nature. People want to be related to a winner (a player), not a loser (the team). I mean, no one wants to be a loser. Everybody just want to escape from this feeling.

So it means the more loss the team has, the more we just focus on a few good players. At the past, the guy was Melo - for some basketball reasons I am not good enough to explain - it almost looks like he played balls in another dimension. He could play extremely well but the team lost or he could play extremely bad but the team still won. In short, he was the perfect guy for our mind to escape into. If the game is too ugly to watch, how about we just watch him play? Sometimes it seems he could score in a impossible way. His talents is truly amazing, sometimes. (sigh)


Typically, people probably talk like that.

"Today, Knicks lost again."
"Yeah, I know."
"But at least Melo had 25pts. "
"Yeah, KP had 4 blocks too. "
"Sure. They are our only hope. "

Then we look at a player long enough, we start to have attachment to that player. We feel like we really love him, like he is the only light in the eternal darkness. I THINK it is how a knick fans turns to be a Melo fan. Keep in mind that that guy still is a Knicks fan. I am pretty sure there is no fake Knicks fan in this world. I mean, come on, who would want to pretend he is a Knicks fan? We are not GSW.

Looking someone long enough, it turns into a habit, and then it turns into devoted love. KP is our new target. I don't necessarily a bad thing. I assume it is what a sporting fan does. But it has some very bad influence to the team, and the community. And I am going to give an example at below.


We always needed a point guard. Last season, when Knicks realized D.Rose was not suitable for that job, they wanted to make a trade. People threw around a lot of names. (Keep in mind that I am not talking about here. I mean in the internet , in general ) People really hated D.Rose (yeah, he is on the hate list) because they thought he didn't pass the ball to KP. They wanted to find another point guard.

Now we step back a little bit and look at other contenders. In "modern brand of basketballs", almost every good team has a very offense-minded attacking point guard. (Phil called it decisive attack guard? ) The guy is always the first or second option to his team.

Curry: 1 or 2
CP3 : 1 or 2
Kyrie : 2
Thomas: 1
Westbrook: 111111

The only exception was Rocket (They have one now) and Spur. But Harden actually was the one holding the balls on offense and Tony Parker is still very dangerous. So it seems that if you want to play "modern brand of basketballs " instead "slow outdated triangle", you should find a first or second options attack guard , right? Knicks fans would suggest something like that, right?

NO.

People threw around a lot of adv. stats and win share or something fancy to against old stupid Phil but suddenly they wanted a pass-first point guard, like Ricky Rubio. He is very good at everything except shooting the ball. He would be the fifth option at best, behind Melo, KP, Willy and Lee. His type is dying. There is no Jason Kidd anymore.

It is really weird. When it comes to the duty of point guards, suddenly we all went old-school. We think he should just pass, and let other score.

The reason is that while we are all Knicks fans, we are also a fan of our favorite player in secret. A lot of us wanted a PG who could pass the ball to Melo, KP or other favorite player to score, to pump up their stats. We talked about building a team, but actually we wanted to build a team which is a perfect situation for our respective favorite sons.

Here, keep in mind that I am not calling names or I am not saying anyone has done anything wrong. I just try to illustrate the problem. In the age of internet, what the mass wants have a lot of power to the decision makers, collectively. It really affects the game plan, like decrease the trade value of our players or increase the trade value of another players. (Everyone and his dog knew we wanted to throw away D.Rose to get Rubio, of course their stance was tough and hard. They knew we badly wanted it. )

It is just the first drawback when you devoted love is too strong for one player, but I am going to hit the send button, then take a break and write the second part.

Boy I dont think this is true at all. Maybe the Knicks think that way? I think most fans--I mean a high majority dont care about the name on the back other than KNicks.

This will be an interesting year in terms of fans psyche. We have been bad while not trying to be bad--this is the first season they are coming out and saying---"we bad" so the KNicks fan will have to accept it for the greater good.
The main things I want to see out of the year

A. and its by far the biggest. Can KP stay healthy and play a nice team basketball game that raises the level of play. Id be happy with something less than a franchise player--Im not putting him on that level bt Id like to see CLOSE to it. The more I think about it--can he give me a career similar to Lemarcus Aldidge with a little more 3 point shooting and a % better block shots? Can we stone him into the 4 slot--know hes going to play 75 games and playoff ready--and get back 18/20-8-2.5-1.5 --I think that is attainable. Key is health

B. We need a season long evaluation on our guards. No names needed

C. Lets see what Kanter can do with 30 minutes--hes still young --so we need a full season to look at him with an open mind

D. Make Willy G the 4-5 back up--so that KP gets 27-30 Willy gets 23-27 Kanter gets 30 and one of Noah Oquinn etc.. mop up the rest.

E. Keep an open look out all season for a 3--I dont think we have a long term solution on the roster. We couldve had Troy Williams early last year--kind of fits the mold of what we are looking for at that position

F Be opportunistic--take reasonable chances on cheap players but steer clear of a major deal that involves draft picks over the next 3 years. If there is one bit of evidence we can look back at--trading draft picks that are unprotected is not a smart idea.

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10/17/2017  3:08 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
Boy I dont think this is true at all. Maybe the Knicks think that way? I think most fans--I mean a high majority dont care about the name on the back other than KNicks.

This will be an interesting year in terms of fans psyche. We have been bad while not trying to be bad--this is the first season they are coming out and saying---"we bad" so the KNicks fan will have to accept it for the greater good.
The main things I want to see out of the year

A. and its by far the biggest. Can KP stay healthy and play a nice team basketball game that raises the level of play. Id be happy with something less than a franchise player--Im not putting him on that level bt Id like to see CLOSE to it. The more I think about it--can he give me a career similar to Lemarcus Aldidge with a little more 3 point shooting and a % better block shots? Can we stone him into the 4 slot--know hes going to play 75 games and playoff ready--and get back 18/20-8-2.5-1.5 --I think that is attainable. Key is health

B. We need a season long evaluation on our guards. No names needed

C. Lets see what Kanter can do with 30 minutes--hes still young --so we need a full season to look at him with an open mind

D. Make Willy G the 4-5 back up--so that KP gets 27-30 Willy gets 23-27 Kanter gets 30 and one of Noah Oquinn etc.. mop up the rest.

E. Keep an open look out all season for a 3--I dont think we have a long term solution on the roster. We couldve had Troy Williams early last year--kind of fits the mold of what we are looking for at that position

F Be opportunistic--take reasonable chances on cheap players but steer clear of a major deal that involves draft picks over the next 3 years. If there is one bit of evidence we can look back at--trading draft picks that are unprotected is not a smart idea.

I agree with your take. Most fans may love certain players but not over the TEAM. IMO If you're a fan for decades you simply can't love players over Team.

I agree this year is huge. We're going to learn so much about this team. So many players that need to play and demonstrate who and what they are!

I anticipate some kind of trade this season. Just seems to be a necessary to continue to balance and improve this roster.

mlby1215
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10/18/2017  12:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/18/2017  12:09 PM
I am going to write the fourth part, and it will be final. It is about infighting.

In first part, I talked about the psychological shift. It is not that people to be a Melo fan (or anyone's fan) then come here and pretend to be a Knicks fan. It is just a mental practice which helps us to feel better. Humans want to be related to a winner rather than a loser. Subconsciously he would focus on a single player instead. Then the devoted love is born, and this player turns into this fan's favorite son. While it is not a bad thing, sometimes it has a number of drawback, like affecting a team to discipline or trade their players.

In second part, I talked about how we actually acts like over-protective parents in secret. We treat the player we love like a favorite son. It really makes the job of coaching very difficult.

In third part, I talked about how this mentality affects management. We always treated our players very well, at least we always tried to do what they wanted. I am not here to blame the players. They are all good and well. It is all about the balance of power, like we should not give a U.S prez too much power even though he is the best politician ever.


I said it before and I said it again. Everything I wrote is not to aim to any specific person. It is like, if I write something about global warming, I say humans caused global warming. Some dudes jump out and protest "I did not cause global warming!" Yeah, you are right. You did not cause it. I know that. I just go to a place and it happens to be here. I talk about it and I look at it in a very board sense. It is about the community as a whole. It is totally not personal.


In this final part, I will talk about the relationship among players and fans alike.

In these few years, we hated a lot of people. Jose, Sasha, Rambis, Phil, Noah, D.Rose. Sometimes it was Quinn (when he plays badly ) or Lance (when he was awful). They were all gentlemen and made no trouble. They didn't break any law. (I see D.Rose no wrong as he were brave enough to go to court means he really thought he was innocent ) The hatred made me think a lot about who we are, collectively. Again I have to repeat I don't mean anyone doing any wrong here. It is just that the hatred made me feel strange. Sure, we are sporting fans. Sure, there is trash talking. Sure, it was just trolling. But still, they were/are all Knicks. Especially Noah, that dude wanted announcers called him coming from Hell Kitchen. Well, I am not sure if he still feels he is at home now.

Hatred usually comes from love. We hate someone who hurts our love. This was the starting point for me to examine this topic. How the psychological shift changed the focus from the team to a single player, and we start to feel like that player = Knicks, and pushed a lot of things which was not helpful to the situation. For example, we trashed D.Rose not passing the ball to KP enough, and badmouthed him wherever we go in the internet. Very soon his name was ruined (who wouldn't when he was related to Knicks?) and his trade value dropped, then in return the team couldn't trade him for anything.

The same thing happened to Melo. We really wanted to side with him so we tried so hard to show the world outside NY how unlucky he was. How bad he was handled, and how evil Phil were. Phil even used his friend Charley Rosen to write something bad about Melo! Sure Melo's media friends and everyone knowing him did the same things to Phil but you know, Melo didn't ask them to do so (and Phil must have asked Charley Rosen) so it doesn't count. At the end, every team looked at the situation and low-balled us. Their stance were very tough because they thought we had no choice at all.

Before we really start the this part, we can think about something first.

We are Americans, right? We are all different but at the end, it is something we still can share with.
However, if people put something like Democrats or Republicans before "Americans", this country will be divided. (Actually, it has already happened. )

If people put something like "I am black", "you are white" before "Americans", this country will be divided. ( unfortunately, I feel like it is where the society are going now )

It is the same that if we put our favorite son before the team, Knicks fans will be divided too. I have a feeling we treated outsiders very poorly. D.Rose and Melo both didn't play defense and both played like a black hole, but people treated them totally differently. Rose was new to the team and Melo were always with us so it is understandable. But still, shouldn't we put the team first? Phil traded a lot for this guy and we just let him walked away for nothing. JR Smith was like "we got him for nothing." Total gain for Cav, total loss for us.

KP vs Melo, Melo vs Lin, or someone vs someone. It was always a topic among us. We really want to support our favorite sons, and in this way we start to look at our fellow Knicks fans differently. In order to our son to get to the upper hand, we are not hesitant to paint his "enemy" in a very negative way. It is like Democrats to Trump or Republicans to Hillary Clinton. (Besides, if what both side said is true, I have a strong feeling they both should go to jail. )

Jose had done nothing wrong, but he was the starter while Jerian Grant was not. So Jose = enemy.

Sasha had done nothing wrong, but he took away the minutes from younger guys and he was a pet of Phil Jackson so Sasha = enemy.

Noah had done nothing wrong (except he played poorly), but again he is a center and he takes away the minutes from KP and Willy. Noah = enemy.

They played for Knicks. They made no trouble. They didn't deserve the hostility. Before last reason started, Noah told Rose something like " I played at your place, now you come here and play at my place. " At the end, NY is not Noah's place, no one looked at him like he was part of Knicks. I don't want to think about how Noah would feel now.

We actually are one of the reason to make the environment so toxic. Keep in mind that I am not here to blame people. I just try to be objective and look at things from outside. If there is a lot of infighting, we have to understand we often put a single player above the team. In this way, the infighting must happen, and soon enough we start to hurt other Knicks players in order to help our favorite sons "win".

This part is about to end. The idea is that, as sporting fans, we can't help but love some players. It is just human nature. But we should not take New York Knicks as a public battleground for our favorite sons to advance his career.

At the end, thanks for reading. I would like to express that I don't write for fame or attention. I don't do twitter. I don't try to change people. Of course I don't try to show how smart ass I am or something like that. If there is a reason I try to write that much, it is my conscience. I really feel like I have seen something which I can't say it is right. I would feel bad if I didn't express it at all. Again, I don't aim to anyone here. I post here just because people here are willing to give me a chance to express my thought.

The day Phil Jackson got fired, I immediately had a feeling that it is a great unjust. (I can understand a lot of people would not agree with me, and it is fine. I totally understand your viewpoints ) It is not that he didn't make mistake. It is just like things shouldn't have been worked that way. It is like you are a soldier, even you don't agree with Iraq war you should not walk away from your post. By firing Phil that way, the balance of power has been destroyed, and management has no authority anymore. He could have been replaced in a way that it would not hurt the authority but what is done is done , and the king (Dolan) has spoken. He likes his star more than anything. No one can touch his star.

Well, if you are a older dude, you sure now realize that I am actually quite naive. Yeah, that is why I write this stuff. I don't know much about b-ball. I am not Gaines. I just don't know which player will be better. I am sure not Phil Jackson. I didn't understand triangle and I still don't.

So I just write it for my conscience, if you believe me.

Thanks for reading.

(I will reply to anyone who bothered to reply this thread. But currently I have to get some sleep. I moved to Hong Kong last year and here now is mid-night. )

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10/18/2017  4:29 PM
nixluva wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
Boy I dont think this is true at all. Maybe the Knicks think that way? I think most fans--I mean a high majority dont care about the name on the back other than KNicks.

This will be an interesting year in terms of fans psyche. We have been bad while not trying to be bad--this is the first season they are coming out and saying---"we bad" so the KNicks fan will have to accept it for the greater good.
The main things I want to see out of the year

A. and its by far the biggest. Can KP stay healthy and play a nice team basketball game that raises the level of play. Id be happy with something less than a franchise player--Im not putting him on that level bt Id like to see CLOSE to it. The more I think about it--can he give me a career similar to Lemarcus Aldidge with a little more 3 point shooting and a % better block shots? Can we stone him into the 4 slot--know hes going to play 75 games and playoff ready--and get back 18/20-8-2.5-1.5 --I think that is attainable. Key is health

B. We need a season long evaluation on our guards. No names needed

C. Lets see what Kanter can do with 30 minutes--hes still young --so we need a full season to look at him with an open mind

D. Make Willy G the 4-5 back up--so that KP gets 27-30 Willy gets 23-27 Kanter gets 30 and one of Noah Oquinn etc.. mop up the rest.

E. Keep an open look out all season for a 3--I dont think we have a long term solution on the roster. We couldve had Troy Williams early last year--kind of fits the mold of what we are looking for at that position

F Be opportunistic--take reasonable chances on cheap players but steer clear of a major deal that involves draft picks over the next 3 years. If there is one bit of evidence we can look back at--trading draft picks that are unprotected is not a smart idea.

I agree with your take. Most fans may love certain players but not over the TEAM. IMO If you're a fan for decades you simply can't love players over Team.

I agree this year is huge. We're going to learn so much about this team. So many players that need to play and demonstrate who and what they are!

I anticipate some kind of trade this season. Just seems to be a necessary to continue to balance and improve this roster.

Agree with both takes.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
mlby1215
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10/19/2017  9:11 AM
We are fans, of course we couldn't know what is behind the door. This is how local media control us. The situation of New York Knicks is highly unusual as a sporting organization. The owner is hugely unpopular among fans, and thus he refuses to communicate with them. Because of it the local media totally control the narrative.

Behind the door, I think when Rambis really wanted to install the "true triangle" system, it was backfired. Melo really hated it. He didn't believe in triangle at all, or maybe he didn't think the system would be good for him. We have to understand Local media is very close to Melo and later everything wrong about Rambis started to emerge. At the end, his win/loss was 9-19, but if you listened to the local media, it was like he was the worst person in this world.

The truth is that Melo was a very smart politician. He didn't win that much on the court, but he won a lot of trust off the court. He made the management in a very difficult situation. You couldn't sit him. You had to play him but he would not listen to your plan. And you couldn't say anything little bad about him (like holding the ball too long) , He would use the local media and his fans getting back to you in X 10 power.

Like Phil Jackson, Rambis didn't know how basketball politics being played out in NY, he was doomed to fail. But it is okay, we always kill off a lot of legends. From Larry Brown to D' Antoni to Phil Jackson. Sure we can say it is all their faults, but it is starting to look fishy. We just cannot provide an environment for coaches and management to succeed. The power of players are too strong in New York Knicks.

As usual, everything can lead back to Dolan.

Jeff knows he will be fired. He is smiling and waiting for it. It is okay, he knows the deal. New Prez , new GM, and one losing streak, he will be a dead man.


Nalod wrote:mlby1215, Good take.
I have written often about "Blame" and the assignment of it. Its hardly knick fans exclusive.
Its easy to point and blame, but another to actually fix it.
For knick fans we really don't know the actual culprit. We thought Rambis was here for only being friends with Phil and yet the man is an accomplished person with 6 rings, was a head coach in a bad situation, and one he did not help. But we assume Rambis was what Rambis is today. Coaches can't grow?
Why did he yell? Was KP at fault with his exit? If Rambis was a problem, why did we keep him? Dolan let PHil walk out with 24million and Rambis makes about a mil a year? If Jeff did not want him, certainly the time to speak up would be offered to him.
I don't have the answers and we read the same stuff but some of us take away absolutes where others just more questions.

We are full of optimism yet the reality is the team might not win but 15 games. Our New GM kind of hinted that we need to be patient. I think we are tanking.
That means Jeff is in a bad situation.

mlby1215
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10/19/2017  10:28 AM
That "super team" doomed Phil Jackson. He never said it was contender materials. He said the goal was payoff. Even his friend Rosen predicted 42-40, at the time he was one of most negative. (and thus he was closest to the truth. Irony )

But the fan connected the dot and thought it must have been ECF. The time of Knicks is coming! The Knicks is back! (Yeah, back to its old form ) It didn't help that D.Rose moved his mouth and said something about "super team", then all the people of other teams looked at Knicks.

Then we failed, in a very impressive way. (like a point short or something like that) We are always the champion of "almost win" and "fake comeback"

Knicks Fans were disappointed, then were very embarrassed when were being laughed at by other fans. At the end we were so angry we needed to find a "escape goat". Then Phil's friend suddenly spoke up in order to protect Phil or lay blame on players, or both. Then we started to turn our guns on Phil because he failed us. He didn't promise us ECF, but we thought he did anyway.

Then, you know, everything else is history.


arkrud wrote:The problem we fans see with our team are not happening in the Garden.
They are happening in our small minds.
It is hard to get the detailed picture and accept that the state of the team is objective reality and not the result of some evil people conspiracy.
We are sport fans to have fun not to spend time analyzing and god forbid supporting team building process over immediate pleasure of winning now.
Rather we will chase the evil people away and rejoice.
Organizations who are truing to please the fans age doomed to mediocrity.

Every child is taught if you try to please everyone, you end up upsetting everyone.
Richard Engel
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10/19/2017  10:38 AM
My psychological state as a Knicks fan will be tested if Blatt is brought in to coach next year. It will show that this is more about Perry and Mills bringing in their old buddies, than winning.
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10/19/2017  11:28 AM
I don't like NY media. They are too political for my taste. I don't feel like they are reporting news about Knicks. It is more like they try to "influence" the team. They spread good words about someone they like, and spread ugly words for the one they dislike. Then when the team they wanted turns out to be bad, they will step back and pretend they have nothing to do with it.

They will blame Knicks firing Phil so soon if Mills can't produce. Well, someone like Frank Isola can't live if Knicks are not the big bad evil organization.

C and D are actually the same one. D will turn into C when the time comes. If he/she thinks some dudes are obstacles for their beloved stars, they will attack them "objectively".

I don't blame them, as they should not blame others for the difficulty their star has faced. Someone like Melo has to change his game when he is getting older. It is just something everyone has to experience. People will get old, and we should accept it.


fwk00 wrote:There are Knick archetypes that need to be identified that are often confused as Knicks fans.

Exhibit A.) The ticket scalpers, their primary motivation is driving up ticket prices and they've succeeded for decades in the star-phuck revolving door of useless but recognizable players who sell tickets for cheap thrills. As long as the cash keeps flowing they are good. This year will be hell for the coaches and management because of this cohort - loud, obnoxious, and toxic on social media.

Exhibit B.) A hostile NY media. They sell their wares by inventing dysfunction, capitalizing on misfortune, rewriting sports history, and constant recrimination and caustic criticism. They enrage the general public into thinking the Knicks are hopeless, dysfunctional, and in perpetual chaos.

Exhibit C.) The whip masters - the Individuals who pick out a whipping boy from the team, the coaching staff, and the administration that they take round-robin turns at flogging to submission.

Exhibit D.) The fan-boy/fan-girl - blind to performance and team chemistry, these parasites stick so closely with individual players that their compulsive devotion to the player makes it impossible for the coach to coach him, impossible for the management to rid themselves of him, and impossible for the team to work-around him.

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10/19/2017  12:27 PM
It is okay I don't include every fan. I mean why should I do that? I am not here to judge. I have no right to judge. Some of them love Knicks so much but they love their team probably in a harmful way. I just want to bring up the topic and say "Hey, look, maybe we can look at this thing that way. "

I may be wrong, and most possibly I get a lot of things wrong, but it is totally fine to me. I am not here to be right. I am not here to show I am smart or nice or "holier than you" or anything. I just want to show something to people, and let them think about it. If a dude tells me " I am not the one you talked about." it is actually a very good thing to hear. In short, I don't mind I am wrong.

HofstraBBall wrote:Imo. You have some general insight but have many more fan types to describe. You may be right about some. Although they may not want to admit it. Fans range from those that are looking for a sports team success to fill the lack of success in their own lives to the fans that could not care less about the teams success and just want to have some fun and a couple of beers watching some basketball. Think to try to classify each type in between is long tasked.

I think this is where we actually got the thing wrong. Melo =/= Knicks. His window was closing, while Knicks' window was always wide. It is not that we shouldn't take care our stars. But it shouldn't change our long-term plan. If we didn't have enough ammo to be a serious contender, then we should trade them to a place they can win. In short, we should have traded Melo to a place he could actually have a chance to win it all, not we changed our rebuilding plan then messed everything up.

Not related, but it was what Phil tried to do. While Melo said NTC protected him to be traded a place he didn't want, and thus blamed Phil only wanted to get rid of him and send him to bad teams. But look at the history. It was not how Phil Jackson has done at all.

Every single player he sent away was in a good place. Cav, Dallas, Bulls, Rockets. He took care of people. Maybe I missed something, but the idea is that maybe Melo truly hated Phil or misunderstood him.

Again unrelated, it is again day by day it looks like Phil was not the one giving out 120mil contract. I mean, this old man gave you 120mil and you hated him just because he wanted to trade you later? I think Melo would have a little bit more thankful things to say to Phil if he were actually the one giving him this 120mil contract.


HofstraBBall wrote:Do Think your missing what most of us Melo defenders are really arguing about though. Don't think that there is anyone on here claiming Melo was LBJ or Kobe type level talent. Don't think Melo fans enjoyed bragging that Melo scored 25 but we won 17 games. Melo represents just another example, in our opinion, of what we feel the Knicks franchise failed to do. Mainly the believe that our FO was incapable of building a team around a very good player.

Long time Knick fans who have not witnessed a championship are extremely frustrated but loyal fans. Ofcourse everyone has their own take on the cause of each years failure. But that's what fuels discussion boards like this. If we didn't have different opinions then we would not all enjoy the dialogue. Even, inmy case, when everyone else's opinion is wrong.


Well, sometimes I really thought Melo was the only thing I could look at. (in 2014-15) I can understand. =) This is why I said we sometimes put too much of love on a single player.

HofstraBBall wrote:Do Think your missing what most of us Melo defenders are really arguing about though. Don't think that there is anyone on here claiming Melo was LBJ or Kobe type level talent. Don't think Melo fans enjoyed bragging that Melo scored 25 but we won 17 games.


Melo is that type of player who are really hard to be built around. His game is clearly flawed, while his talent is truly amazing.
The management tried, and couldn't succeed. It is really interesting to see if OKC could do better than we could to Melo.

HofstraBBall wrote: Melo represents just another example, in our opinion, of what we feel the Knicks franchise failed to do. Mainly the believe that our FO was incapable of building a team around a very good player. Of course we don't think Melo was a the perfect all around player with no deficiencies. We just believed he was one of very few good players, besides STAT, who wanted to come here, and that we may have been able to do something more with better talent around him. Of course we know the FO/Dolan should have waited with Denver and kept assets. Of course we realize there were cap issues. Of course we thought STAT was a big contract to overcome. But most these errors lead back to the FO. So, at least for me, it's attacking the FO as oppose to defending Melos talent or lack of.


It is okay. I am not here to blame people. Just write for people to think about. A lot of dudes here are actually die-hard long time fans. I always don't think what I write about are to aim to them.

I just mention something happened in our community.

HofstraBBall wrote:Do agree that for most it's not about the knicks success but rather about their record of being right. Many will defend bad judgements or opinions based on what side they are on record for. But that's human nature.

Think this years team is actually rather deep. And although frustrated we are back to 2001, think we have some young guys to root for and good talent to watch.

jrodmc
Posts: 30601
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
10/19/2017  1:29 PM
It's been discussed previously here (like every other topic) that there are myriad types of fans.
The geographically loyal fan; this is my hood, my team, my players, my coach, my GM, my prez, my dysfunctional owner, my security guards, etc, etc, good, bad or indifferent.
The classic front runner fans, those who watch and like basketball, but tie their hats to the latest and greatest super team, whether it be some starphucqued triumvirate or the classic Spurs and GS 'fans' who love basketball played the right way (which also happens to be the way THEY think it should be played).
The player lovers; Lil'Nate, DLee, Gallo, Linsanity, Cole, Jimmer... these fans come and go and really don't GAS about the team, per se.
And guess what, none of this is bad, not even the front runners or the player lovers.

The group that is hardest to own up to, but the easiest to psychoanalyze, or the ones who are fans of Self.

You can spot their posts a mile away. Constantly deriding others while pontificating about their tremendous knowledge and ability to express things in the most logical, incredibly competent way, to the point that if they weren't actually spending time trying to explain to you unwashed idiots how this Knicks franchise (and every franchise for that matter) should be run, they would have already cured cancer, made billions for charity as a captain of all industries, and bartered for world peace. And they have some underlying statistics and slightly over-strained analogies to back this stance up. Of course, most of these types couldn't hit a free throw or haven't played or loved the game at any level. But like little gnome-like sports reporters who make a living ragging on athletes and critiquing how they play, if you can't play, act like you know how you would if you could. And be loud and use as many paragraphs as possible.

What's funny, or not really funny, is that most of the first groups may realize, to some extent, that they are just a bunch of shmoes typing on the internet. The last group never quite seems to believe that about themselves. Which IMO, is where the most amount of friction arises on the board. Having friendly debates with demi-gods normally only works well in Avengers movies.

You can deal with homers (me being one). You can deal with the constant street-smart-cool/doom and gloom NYC standard fan. But the profile who gets on here to do nothing but tout their own brilliance? Tiring.

End of rant. Their will be no further "parts".

You guys spend a lot of time commenting on the internet?
The psychological state of New York Knicks fans

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