CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Okay, I answer you every and single part very seriously.

1) Thibs wanted to come but Phil didn't want him. It is a fact and I don't think he is right or wrong. It was just his choice and he lived with it. Jeff didn't do well, but Thib did badly with a lot of talents.

2) Jeff didn't do triangle. He didn't know triangle. The team didn't go a lot of triangle until all-star break. They did because "the modern way" didn't work for this team.

3) Prez/coach relationship were good. Didn't people said Jeff was a puppet of Phil a few days ago? Now they were not on the same pages now?

4) The team were losing and the prez wanted to change something and used a system which helped him win 11 rings. Now again it is wrong? He tried one way (triangle). It didn't work. He found a non-triangle coach who promised him he would do something differently, like some offense with triangle aspects. It didn't work either. Since then the prez went back his old way. I mean, why was Jeff too good to be Phil's student? In last two years final, there were two teams and they had two coaches and they were both the former players of Phil Jackson. They sure learned something from him and I don't think Jeff are better than them.

5) You talked a lot how Phil did bad. Do you feel tired? I know it, everyone know it, and actually a lot of us agree with it. So? Now we have a very bad team and we will have a very high pick. You want Steve Mills to choose a guy or Phil Jackson to do it? First round picks have to be in the hands of someone who knows talents. Gaines was the right-hand man of PJ but he was not the right-hand man of Mills. You suddenly have a lot of trust on Dolan's bands? What have Mills done to give you the trust?

6) 5 games later, and 0-5 later, it seems people still mostly talk about the potentials of the guys Phil bought in. Sure, who would want to talk about Sessions or Jack? But Phil is gone. Now Mills keep up his game and see how many good young cheap players he can bring. (Currently he is none but rightfully so)

7) Who are you? Unless you say you are player-first fan, I don't know you are one. Actually I don't know you at all other than you tried super hard in pro-melo (a lot of fans do) and anti-phil (a lot of fan do as well)

So, one of below has to be true:

A) You happened to be Lin, Melo and KP fans and you feel offended.
B) You can represent all of Knicks fans in the world and you are very confident all of them are not player-first.
C) You are a superhero in secret and you can read people mind.

8) I am not confused. Frustrated, sure. Who wouldn't? The day we really needed a guy who knows talents , he got fired. If there is a only one thing Phil has done pretty well as a prez, it is that he knows talents. But it is too bad he didn't last long.

9) Sometimes reality are too funny to be true. Phil said Melo needed to pass the ball to be MJ or Kobe, people got super angry. But Mills and Gaines laughed on Melo's training video, fans were silent. I suggest you should now collect more and more dirty things about Mills and Gaines too.

10) Actually I lied. I know a little about you. You love Melo very much. Too bad he doesn't return the love. Collectively, you tried so hard to show how bad Phil he was in order to help melo "win". It is just like CNN and Trump. (keep in mind I don't say Trump doesn't deserve it) Now, Phil got fired. But suddenly Melo was like "Thanks but no thanks. I always want to have a chance to win a ring. (or play a playoff game)" If there is one who got confused, it is melo's fan, not me.

11) we lost a very good basketball mind, who may not help us win, but it is quite possible he could have helped us to draft next KP. AND we lost another very talented player who is still super good in his later basketball life. We lost them BOTH and have nothing to show for it. I mean if melo said I would stay if Phil gone, I would still have a reason to accept it is a ok deal. But it is not. Melo always wanted to go anyway. If he didn't want to stay here without Phil , of course he would not want to stay with Phil.

12) So confusing, right? Melo fans have to question what they have accomplished other than helping the careers of some guys like Frank Isola or Steve Mills. The one who confused is the guys who try to act normal and suddenly assume Dolan's guys are the one who know how to do operate an NBA team.

13) I have joined here 6 months but I have lurked around almost 4 years. I like to read, and at the past I read this board EVERY SINGLE DAY.

14) If you try to use "You have no right to question me because you are new", then I know you indirectly admit you are on the losing cause. What else can you say? Argue by logic?

15) Don't be afraid to get banned, unless you intend to use a weapon called "personal attack", and I assume you don't want to. Right?

16) Actually you can. English is not my first language. You have a very good chance to win if we exchange dirt.

17) But I am too lazy.

18) At last, I actually feel bad for you. I was once a melo fan. I still remember clearly how happy he was when Derrick Williams tipped, tipped, tipped, tipped in the ball. I thought he changed and he would put the team above all ( I was wrong) Melo fans assumed he was very loyal until the end but he wanted to go away. People would think he would give us more team choices so we could have better deal but he did not. It feel like you trusted someone like a friend but it turns out he is not a friend at all.

19) At last, don't think too big about yourself. I didn't talk about you. I talked about a phenomenon. The cultural problem of New York Knicks fans. The team was so bad for so long time. People intend to shift their attention to a player to lessen the pain. Since a player can have a very successful career (relatively) when the team is super bad. (Again I feel like I talked about melo)

What else do you want me to respond? Just ask me and I answer it.

CrushAlot wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.

Great post. I have seen this tendency to use how long someone has posted here a the basis of being right and above being challenged by new people who join, repeated ad nauseum. You did a great job of addressing that. Also the team first mindset isn't the same for all fans. Some people only care about what entertainment they get in the short term and could care less if it hurts the team in the long term. And that's not wrong, people can want what they want. A forum will always provide plenty of people of both types and we will argue incessantly about the merits and demerits of one position over another. It's what we do. And English is not my first language either, it's irrelevant really.

Interesting. That is what you got out of this?

I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters.

I think you know full still that's not the comment MBLY was responding to. He was responding tho this

I disagree but I can see your point. The bigger issue for me was a poster that joined this forum 6 months ago calling posters player first fans. I tried to respond in a cordial manner but if I typed what I was thinking when I read his post I would be banned.

This is the "type" of comment I am reffering to. How long someone else posts on this forum has zero relevance to a poster being s player first fan. But my post was an observation about how I have seem this type of posts on this forum from multiple posters. Definitely wasn't trying to single anyone out. This turns a basketball disussion into some type of right of passage related exchange and completely changed the subject.

nixluva wrote:

Kemet wrote:THJ contract is still outrageous when we could have had Jonathan Simmons n resign Holiday for half the price of THJ contract.
THJ had one decent game in the preseason games, and it wasn't his scoring that made his performance decent, it was THJ verbal screaming leadership on the court that made him valuable in the game, plus playing relentless defense so his teammates could follow suit. I don't give THJ much credit for having a better performance than the Wizards Beal because Beal is used to following Wall leadership controlling the tempo of the game on both sides of the court.
THJ averaging 21 pts this season will be easy being the Knicks first option on offense receiving 30 shot attempts per game just like Iso-Melo .. THJ will get my praise when he average 21 pts on above 45% fg shooting, 3 ast, 2 turn-overs, plus go to the foul line 3 or more times for 32 minutes of playing-time.

Basically you seem to be missing the point of taking a 25 yr old who is getting better. You bring up 2 guards who are older than THJ and it's clear you forgot about Dotson!!! This is a better long term plan than your idea Holiday and Simmons.

Unclear if Simmons would have signed for the 3/18 with the Knicks that he did with the Magic. Baseline issue for the Knicks is they have to offer more years or higher AAV to get the same player a different time signs, if that situation would exist at all. Odds are the Knicks would have had to offer a four year deal to get him.

Simmons and Holiday can both play defense. There isn't much push/pull to that.

Together, Kemet is right, from a market based perspective, they are worth more and more valuable than THJr on his current deal and Dotson. It's not clear if Dotson will ever be a functional NBA rotation player. He looks good now, but it's early. The value of the cap space difference matters too.

Michele Roberts was told, but either did not care or could not sell it differently. Many teams are going into the tax zone to keep their core. There are not enough teams moving forward with cap flexibility to absorb those contracts. Meaning more teams will enter the tax zone than ever before. The long term ripple is the owners, despite spending dumb in many cases, will punish the players long term in the next labor war. They'll want a better deal.

That's the long term impact, the short term is that open cap space is going to be more VALUABLE this coming offseason, than it ever has before in the last 5 years.

Both Simmons and Holiday could have given the Knick some usage and been trade fodder at the deadline. THJr is close to being untradable with his current deal. Age does matter, but the Knicks to "churn" assets to reload more assets for a rebuild. Signing THJr is a net negative strategic decision.

Younger can't always been seen in a vacuum.

Anybody that takes time to put there thoughts on this forum are true NYK follwers, fans, or trolls....how many years they have been on this forum means nothing.....everybody bleeds Knicks....but we all have different opinions...great debates since I have been on this forum.....yes things can get out of hand and as with any group that have been together for years clics develop but that is part and parcel...as long as we keep it civil...or close to it...

Not related, but I think you probably should let the hatred go away. In term of basketballs, Phil Jackson is dead, at least he is dead to Knicks. He sold his house. He has already left. He has done a lot of harm, but they are all temporary. He has done a lot of good, and they are all lasting. Young cores, draft picks, Gaines, and he taught Mills what a basketball is.

He is gone for good. Melo could come back to play for us before he retires, but Phil will not come back, for sure. He is too old for that.

I look at it that way. It is all about giving out proper funeral. We don't have to like our enemies, but at least we can respect them, especially they are already dead. Don't trash the dead man at his funeral, or something like that.

Phil Jackson is finished, and I think you should just let it go.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:Okay, I answer you every and single part very seriously.

1) Thibs wanted to come but Phil didn't want him. It is a fact and I don't think he is right or wrong. It was just his choice and he lived with it. Jeff didn't do well, but Thib did badly with a lot of talents.

2) Jeff didn't do triangle. He didn't know triangle. The team didn't go a lot of triangle until all-star break. They did because "the modern way" didn't work for this team.

3) Prez/coach relationship were good. Didn't people said Jeff was a puppet of Phil a few days ago? Now they were not on the same pages now?

4) The team were losing and the prez wanted to change something and used a system which helped him win 11 rings. Now again it is wrong? He tried one way (triangle). It didn't work. He found a non-triangle coach who promised him he would do something differently, like some offense with triangle aspects. It didn't work either. Since then the prez went back his old way. I mean, why was Jeff too good to be Phil's student? In last two years final, there were two teams and they had two coaches and they were both the former players of Phil Jackson. They sure learned something from him and I don't think Jeff are better than them.

5) You talked a lot how Phil did bad. Do you feel tired? I know it, everyone know it, and actually a lot of us agree with it. So? Now we have a very bad team and we will have a very high pick. You want Steve Mills to choose a guy or Phil Jackson to do it? First round picks have to be in the hands of someone who knows talents. Gaines was the right-hand man of PJ but he was not the right-hand man of Mills. You suddenly have a lot of trust on Dolan's bands? What have Mills done to give you the trust?

6) 5 games later, and 0-5 later, it seems people still mostly talk about the potentials of the guys Phil bought in. Sure, who would want to talk about Sessions or Jack? But Phil is gone. Now Mills keep up his game and see how many good young cheap players he can bring. (Currently he is none but rightfully so)

7) Who are you? Unless you say you are player-first fan, I don't know you are one. Actually I don't know you at all other than you tried super hard in pro-melo (a lot of fans do) and anti-phil (a lot of fan do as well)

So, one of below has to be true:

A) You happened to be Lin, Melo and KP fans and you feel offended.
B) You can represent all of Knicks fans in the world and you are very confident all of them are not player-first.
C) You are a superhero in secret and you can read people mind.

8) I am not confused. Frustrated, sure. Who wouldn't? The day we really needed a guy who knows talents , he got fired. If there is a only one thing Phil has done pretty well as a prez, it is that he knows talents. But it is too bad he didn't last long.

9) Sometimes reality are too funny to be true. Phil said Melo needed to pass the ball to be MJ or Kobe, people got super angry. But Mills and Gaines laughed on Melo's training video, fans were silent. I suggest you should now collect more and more dirty things about Mills and Gaines too.

10) Actually I lied. I know a little about you. You love Melo very much. Too bad he doesn't return the love. Collectively, you tried so hard to show how bad Phil he was in order to help melo "win". It is just like CNN and Trump. (keep in mind I don't say Trump doesn't deserve it) Now, Phil got fired. But suddenly Melo was like "Thanks but no thanks. I always want to have a chance to win a ring. (or play a playoff game)" If there is one who got confused, it is melo's fan, not me.

11) we lost a very good basketball mind, who may not help us win, but it is quite possible he could have helped us to draft next KP. AND we lost another very talented player who is still super good in his later basketball life. We lost them BOTH and have nothing to show for it. I mean if melo said I would stay if Phil gone, I would still have a reason to accept it is a ok deal. But it is not. Melo always wanted to go anyway. If he didn't want to stay here without Phil , of course he would not want to stay with Phil.

12) So confusing, right? Melo fans have to question what they have accomplished other than helping the careers of some guys like Frank Isola or Steve Mills. The one who confused is the guys who try to act normal and suddenly assume Dolan's guys are the one who know how to do operate an NBA team.

13) I have joined here 6 months but I have lurked around almost 4 years. I like to read, and at the past I read this board EVERY SINGLE DAY.

14) If you try to use "You have no right to question me because you are new", then I know you indirectly admit you are on the losing cause. What else can you say? Argue by logic?

15) Don't be afraid to get banned, unless you intend to use a weapon called "personal attack", and I assume you don't want to. Right?

16) Actually you can. English is not my first language. You have a very good chance to win if we exchange dirt.

17) But I am too lazy.

18) At last, I actually feel bad for you. I was once a melo fan. I still remember clearly how happy he was when Derrick Williams tipped, tipped, tipped, tipped in the ball. I thought he changed and he would put the team above all ( I was wrong) Melo fans assumed he was very loyal until the end but he wanted to go away. People would think he would give us more team choices so we could have better deal but he did not. It feel like you trusted someone like a friend but it turns out he is not a friend at all.

19) At last, don't think too big about yourself. I didn't talk about you. I talked about a phenomenon. The cultural problem of New York Knicks fans. The team was so bad for so long time. People intend to shift their attention to a player to lessen the pain. Since a player can have a very successful career (relatively) when the team is super bad. (Again I feel like I talked about melo)

What else do you want me to respond? Just ask me and I answer it.

CrushAlot wrote:

mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.

Great post. I have seen this tendency to use how long someone has posted here a the basis of being right and above being challenged by new people who join, repeated ad nauseum. You did a great job of addressing that. Also the team first mindset isn't the same for all fans. Some people only care about what entertainment they get in the short term and could care less if it hurts the team in the long term. And that's not wrong, people can want what they want. A forum will always provide plenty of people of both types and we will argue incessantly about the merits and demerits of one position over another. It's what we do. And English is not my first language either, it's irrelevant really.

Interesting. That is what you got out of this?

I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters.

I think you know full still that's not the comment MBLY was responding to. He was responding tho this

I disagree but I can see your point. The bigger issue for me was a poster that joined this forum 6 months ago calling posters player first fans. I tried to respond in a cordial manner but if I typed what I was thinking when I read his post I would be banned.

This is the "type" of comment I am reffering to. How long someone else posts on this forum has zero relevance to a poster being s player first fan. But my post was an observation about how I have seem this type of posts on this forum from multiple posters. Definitely wasn't trying to single anyone out. This turns a basketball disussion into some type of right of passage related exchange and completely changed the subject.

I couldn't believe what he posted. And my point was that I was posting here for 8 years before the Melo trade. I also am a life long fan of the team not a fan of a particular player. So I was offended at the suggestion that posters here just root for players, not the team, want the coach fired if he takes a stand on against a players lack of effort etc.