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THJr is going to justify his contract
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meloshouldgo
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10/14/2017  5:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2017  5:27 PM
EnySpree wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:While everyone is falling in love with his numbers - he seems to play less than adequate defense. What little I have seen he looks mostly clueless on defense, like a smaller version of Amare.
He is just standing around rotating late often caught in no man's land, I am hoping he will get better with more reps with different lineups but I am not going to hold my breath.

Being a legit 21pt scorer is not easy. Asking him tho do that and be a lockdown defender is tough. Of course we want him to defend better.... but he wasn't brought here to be Tony Allen.

Easy? Why does any of this have to be easy? Dude's gonna make 18MM a year. I am not asking him to be stellar on defense, but adequate. There's lots of middle ground between clueless and Tony Allen

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CrushAlot
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10/14/2017  6:02 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:While everyone is falling in love with his numbers - he seems to play less than adequate defense. What little I have seen he looks mostly clueless on defense, like a smaller version of Amare.
He is just standing around rotating late often caught in no man's land, I am hoping he will get better with more reps with different lineups but I am not going to hold my breath.

Being a legit 21pt scorer is not easy. Asking him tho do that and be a lockdown defender is tough. Of course we want him to defend better.... but he wasn't brought here to be Tony Allen.

Easy? Why does any of this have to be easy? Dude's gonna make 18MM a year. I am not asking him to be stellar on defense, but adequate. There's lots of middle ground between clueless and Tony Allen

I haven't seen a lot of the Knicks this preseason with the Yankees being on but Hardaway was being touted as a much better defender after playing for coach Bud. Maybe Jeff needs to approach things differently. Hardaway didn't play in Atlanta much when his d was bad.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
mlby1215
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10/14/2017  10:32 PM
In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

CrushAlot
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10/14/2017  10:53 PM
mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
nixluva
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10/14/2017  11:01 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.

I actually think Phil as flawed as he was turned out to be a bridge to Dolan being more hands off. Phil had problems with his interpersonal skills his entire career and they caused problems here. I think he did some good and the Front Office learned from his mistakes.

THJ was a worthwhile signing and I expect that he's going to be a PLUS for this team. The more he plays with CLee, Nitty, Baker and Dotson the better his D will be cuz those guys all get after it on D!

CrushAlot
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10/14/2017  11:04 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.

I actually think Phil as flawed as he was turned out to be a bridge to Dolan being more hands off. Phil had problems with his interpersonal skills his entire career and they caused problems here. I think he did some good and the Front Office learned from his mistakes.

THJ was a worthwhile signing and I expect that he's going to be a PLUS for this team. The more he plays with CLee, Nitty, Baker and Dotson the better his D will be cuz those guys all get after it on D!


I disagree but I can see your point. The bigger issue for me was a poster that joined this forum 6 months ago calling posters player first fans. I tried to respond in a cordial manner but if I typed what I was thinking when I read his post I would be banned.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
arkrud
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10/14/2017  11:25 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.

I actually think Phil as flawed as he was turned out to be a bridge to Dolan being more hands off. Phil had problems with his interpersonal skills his entire career and they caused problems here. I think he did some good and the Front Office learned from his mistakes.

THJ was a worthwhile signing and I expect that he's going to be a PLUS for this team. The more he plays with CLee, Nitty, Baker and Dotson the better his D will be cuz those guys all get after it on D!


I disagree but I can see your point. The bigger issue for me was a poster that joined this forum 6 months ago calling posters player first fans. I tried to respond in a cordial manner but if I typed what I was thinking when I read his post I would be banned.

If will type all we think... this will be some kind of violent pornography..
We are human beings only because we do not do what we think. At last most of us...

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
Zebo13
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10/15/2017  12:56 AM
Gettin a lil deep here lol
mlby1215
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10/15/2017  5:33 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/15/2017  5:37 AM
Okay, I answer you every and single part very seriously.

1) Thibs wanted to come but Phil didn't want him. It is a fact and I don't think he is right or wrong. It was just his choice and he lived with it. Jeff didn't do well, but Thib did badly with a lot of talents.

2) Jeff didn't do triangle. He didn't know triangle. The team didn't go a lot of triangle until all-star break. They did because "the modern way" didn't work for this team.

3) Prez/coach relationship were good. Didn't people said Jeff was a puppet of Phil a few days ago? Now they were not on the same pages now?

4) The team were losing and the prez wanted to change something and used a system which helped him win 11 rings. Now again it is wrong? He tried one way (triangle). It didn't work. He found a non-triangle coach who promised him he would do something differently, like some offense with triangle aspects. It didn't work either. Since then the prez went back his old way. I mean, why was Jeff too good to be Phil's student? In last two years final, there were two teams and they had two coaches and they were both the former players of Phil Jackson. They sure learned something from him and I don't think Jeff are better than them.

5) You talked a lot how Phil did bad. Do you feel tired? I know it, everyone know it, and actually a lot of us agree with it. So? Now we have a very bad team and we will have a very high pick. You want Steve Mills to choose a guy or Phil Jackson to do it? First round picks have to be in the hands of someone who knows talents. Gaines was the right-hand man of PJ but he was not the right-hand man of Mills. You suddenly have a lot of trust on Dolan's bands? What have Mills done to give you the trust?

6) 5 games later, and 0-5 later, it seems people still mostly talk about the potentials of the guys Phil bought in. Sure, who would want to talk about Sessions or Jack? But Phil is gone. Now Mills keep up his game and see how many good young cheap players he can bring. (Currently he is none but rightfully so)

7) Who are you? Unless you say you are player-first fan, I don't know you are one. Actually I don't know you at all other than you tried super hard in pro-melo (a lot of fans do) and anti-phil (a lot of fan do as well)

So, one of below has to be true:

A) You happened to be Lin, Melo and KP fans and you feel offended.
B) You can represent all of Knicks fans in the world and you are very confident all of them are not player-first.
C) You are a superhero in secret and you can read people mind.


8) I am not confused. Frustrated, sure. Who wouldn't? The day we really needed a guy who knows talents , he got fired. If there is a only one thing Phil has done pretty well as a prez, it is that he knows talents. But it is too bad he didn't last long.


9) Sometimes reality are too funny to be true. Phil said Melo needed to pass the ball to be MJ or Kobe, people got super angry. But Mills and Gaines laughed on Melo's training video, fans were silent. I suggest you should now collect more and more dirty things about Mills and Gaines too.

10) Actually I lied. I know a little about you. You love Melo very much. Too bad he doesn't return the love. Collectively, you tried so hard to show how bad Phil he was in order to help melo "win". It is just like CNN and Trump. (keep in mind I don't say Trump doesn't deserve it) Now, Phil got fired. But suddenly Melo was like "Thanks but no thanks. I always want to have a chance to win a ring. (or play a playoff game)" If there is one who got confused, it is melo's fan, not me.

11) we lost a very good basketball mind, who may not help us win, but it is quite possible he could have helped us to draft next KP. AND we lost another very talented player who is still super good in his later basketball life. We lost them BOTH and have nothing to show for it. I mean if melo said I would stay if Phil gone, I would still have a reason to accept it is a ok deal. But it is not. Melo always wanted to go anyway. If he didn't want to stay here without Phil , of course he would not want to stay with Phil.

12) So confusing, right? Melo fans have to question what they have accomplished other than helping the careers of some guys like Frank Isola or Steve Mills. The one who confused is the guys who try to act normal and suddenly assume Dolan's guys are the one who know how to do operate an NBA team.

13) I have joined here 6 months but I have lurked around almost 4 years. I like to read, and at the past I read this board EVERY SINGLE DAY.

14) If you try to use "You have no right to question me because you are new", then I know you indirectly admit you are on the losing cause. What else can you say? Argue by logic?

15) Don't be afraid to get banned, unless you intend to use a weapon called "personal attack", and I assume you don't want to. Right?

16) Actually you can. English is not my first language. You have a very good chance to win if we exchange dirt.

17) But I am too lazy.

18) At last, I actually feel bad for you. I was once a melo fan. I still remember clearly how happy he was when Derrick Williams tipped, tipped, tipped, tipped in the ball. I thought he changed and he would put the team above all ( I was wrong) Melo fans assumed he was very loyal until the end but he wanted to go away. People would think he would give us more team choices so we could have better deal but he did not. It feel like you trusted someone like a friend but it turns out he is not a friend at all.

19) At last, don't think too big about yourself. I didn't talk about you. I talked about a phenomenon. The cultural problem of New York Knicks fans. The team was so bad for so long time. People intend to shift their attention to a player to lessen the pain. Since a player can have a very successful career (relatively) when the team is super bad. (Again I feel like I talked about melo)

What else do you want me to respond? Just ask me and I answer it.

CrushAlot wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.
EnySpree
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10/15/2017  6:06 AM
One thing I believe we have now is better leadership. Even a kid like Dotson seems to talk the game really well. That in turn should mean guys are talking amongst themselves and criticing each other on how to get better. You saw that in preseason. Guys were huddling up and all 5 guys were talking and at the end someone was shaking their head in agreement. That's real team leadership. Haven't seen that since Kidd was here
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Bonn1997
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10/15/2017  9:00 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:While everyone is falling in love with his numbers - he seems to play less than adequate defense. What little I have seen he looks mostly clueless on defense, like a smaller version of Amare.
He is just standing around rotating late often caught in no man's land, I am hoping he will get better with more reps with different lineups but I am not going to hold my breath.

Why does one of the two teams have to be stupid? Different teams have different needs and different financial situations. Even if either we or Atlanta made a mistake, you can't call a team stupid because of one medium-sized signing. Stupid means lots of huge mistakes.

Quoted the wrong post?


Oops!
Bonn1997
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10/15/2017  9:03 AM
mlby1215 wrote:How the situation of Hawk are different from us? They are rebuilding, we are rebuilding. All teams have the same cap limit.

If THjr is a changed man, of course they are stupid for not paying him 72 mil / 4 years.

But if he is the same guy as before, I don't think it is an good idea.

One way or another, one team will be laughed on.

I am not saying he is not worth the money, but if Hawk called tomorrow and wanted to take him back, would you want it? I know I'd because I like to trade the cap room for picks.

If Holidays is too old for KP, of course THjr is too old for Frank.

Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:While everyone is falling in love with his numbers - he seems to play less than adequate defense. What little I have seen he looks mostly clueless on defense, like a smaller version of Amare.
He is just standing around rotating late often caught in no man's land, I am hoping he will get better with more reps with different lineups but I am not going to hold my breath.

Why does one of the two teams have to be stupid? Different teams have different needs and different financial situations. Even if either we or Atlanta made a mistake, you can't call a team stupid because of one medium-sized signing. Stupid means lots of huge mistakes.

What if in the summer of 2017, there was a 50-50 shot he was a "changed man"? Decisions are made before the future plays out. This was an ambiguous case - not clear-cut enough to label either side stupid. It's not like the Eddy Curry signing!
mlby1215
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10/15/2017  9:05 AM
I really don't want to talk bad about Melo. He is not a bad guy. He is genuine. He might not know how to lead or request his players to do something, but it is okay not to be a leader. He still can contribute. In my book, he is a guy who has a big heart but soft ears, and this is the problem.

I don't hate Melo, but I really hate those people around him. They kept talking how great he was. A bunch of suckers.

For example, his college coach. He still praises how great Melo is and how he was got treated unfairly by Knicks. Did he realize he should have been the one teaching him how to be a pro? Like Dean Smith to MJ? When Melo doesn't know what to do, he looks back and see this guy. He kept saying "yeah, you have done nothing wrong. It is all on Karl, D'Antoni and Phil." then Melo believed it. This old man really wasted his talents.

In opposite, JR Smith had the courage to say something like, "Dude, the way you play doesn't work." I consider this guy as a real friend because he is not afraid of hurting your feeling to tell you the truth. Triangle may or may not be outdated. But one man iso is sure the thing of the past. No one could do it better than Westbrook but even he couldn't get pass the first round.

EnySpree wrote:One thing I believe we have now is better leadership. Even a kid like Dotson seems to talk the game really well. That in turn should mean guys are talking amongst themselves and criticing each other on how to get better. You saw that in preseason. Guys were huddling up and all 5 guys were talking and at the end someone was shaking their head in agreement. That's real team leadership. Haven't seen that since Kidd was here
mlby1215
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10/15/2017  9:08 AM
If you think I used a too strong word, It is okay I take it back.

I could say one team would come out looking like they did not make a clever decision.

Bonn1997 wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:How the situation of Hawk are different from us? They are rebuilding, we are rebuilding. All teams have the same cap limit.

If THjr is a changed man, of course they are stupid for not paying him 72 mil / 4 years.

But if he is the same guy as before, I don't think it is an good idea.

One way or another, one team will be laughed on.

I am not saying he is not worth the money, but if Hawk called tomorrow and wanted to take him back, would you want it? I know I'd because I like to trade the cap room for picks.

If Holidays is too old for KP, of course THjr is too old for Frank.

Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:While everyone is falling in love with his numbers - he seems to play less than adequate defense. What little I have seen he looks mostly clueless on defense, like a smaller version of Amare.
He is just standing around rotating late often caught in no man's land, I am hoping he will get better with more reps with different lineups but I am not going to hold my breath.

Why does one of the two teams have to be stupid? Different teams have different needs and different financial situations. Even if either we or Atlanta made a mistake, you can't call a team stupid because of one medium-sized signing. Stupid means lots of huge mistakes.

What if in the summer of 2017, there was a 50-50 shot he was a "changed man"? Decisions are made before the future plays out. This was an ambiguous case - not clear-cut enough to label either side stupid. It's not like the Eddy Curry signing!
Bonn1997
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10/15/2017  9:11 AM
mlby1215 wrote:If you think I used a too strong word, It is okay I take it back.

I could say one team would come out looking like they did not make a clever decision.

Bonn1997 wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:How the situation of Hawk are different from us? They are rebuilding, we are rebuilding. All teams have the same cap limit.

If THjr is a changed man, of course they are stupid for not paying him 72 mil / 4 years.

But if he is the same guy as before, I don't think it is an good idea.

One way or another, one team will be laughed on.

I am not saying he is not worth the money, but if Hawk called tomorrow and wanted to take him back, would you want it? I know I'd because I like to trade the cap room for picks.

If Holidays is too old for KP, of course THjr is too old for Frank.

Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:While everyone is falling in love with his numbers - he seems to play less than adequate defense. What little I have seen he looks mostly clueless on defense, like a smaller version of Amare.
He is just standing around rotating late often caught in no man's land, I am hoping he will get better with more reps with different lineups but I am not going to hold my breath.

Why does one of the two teams have to be stupid? Different teams have different needs and different financial situations. Even if either we or Atlanta made a mistake, you can't call a team stupid because of one medium-sized signing. Stupid means lots of huge mistakes.

What if in the summer of 2017, there was a 50-50 shot he was a "changed man"? Decisions are made before the future plays out. This was an ambiguous case - not clear-cut enough to label either side stupid. It's not like the Eddy Curry signing!

Fair enough. One team might regret their decision. That's probably how I'd put it.
fishmike
Posts: 47712
Alba Posts: 1
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Member: #298
USA
10/15/2017  9:48 AM
Atl... they lose Horford, Milsap and THjr to FA. Three of their most productive players. They retain Bazemore for the same money that THjr got. Bazemore is a very good defender, better than THjr, but he's a bad offensive player. I would much rather have THjr for the same money, especially considering THjr is also 3 years younger.

What is Atl doing? They knew after losing Milsap they were not going to be very good and I suspect they simply didnt want to pay THjr that much money when they had Bazemore at the same position. I think they wanted to avoid a situation like Portland where they ended up with redundant guys getting paid.

Atl doesnt have a strong history to lean on here

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
meloshouldgo
Posts: 23997
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Member: #5801

10/15/2017  9:55 AM
mlby1215 wrote:Okay, I answer you every and single part very seriously.

1) Thibs wanted to come but Phil didn't want him. It is a fact and I don't think he is right or wrong. It was just his choice and he lived with it. Jeff didn't do well, but Thib did badly with a lot of talents.

2) Jeff didn't do triangle. He didn't know triangle. The team didn't go a lot of triangle until all-star break. They did because "the modern way" didn't work for this team.

3) Prez/coach relationship were good. Didn't people said Jeff was a puppet of Phil a few days ago? Now they were not on the same pages now?

4) The team were losing and the prez wanted to change something and used a system which helped him win 11 rings. Now again it is wrong? He tried one way (triangle). It didn't work. He found a non-triangle coach who promised him he would do something differently, like some offense with triangle aspects. It didn't work either. Since then the prez went back his old way. I mean, why was Jeff too good to be Phil's student? In last two years final, there were two teams and they had two coaches and they were both the former players of Phil Jackson. They sure learned something from him and I don't think Jeff are better than them.

5) You talked a lot how Phil did bad. Do you feel tired? I know it, everyone know it, and actually a lot of us agree with it. So? Now we have a very bad team and we will have a very high pick. You want Steve Mills to choose a guy or Phil Jackson to do it? First round picks have to be in the hands of someone who knows talents. Gaines was the right-hand man of PJ but he was not the right-hand man of Mills. You suddenly have a lot of trust on Dolan's bands? What have Mills done to give you the trust?

6) 5 games later, and 0-5 later, it seems people still mostly talk about the potentials of the guys Phil bought in. Sure, who would want to talk about Sessions or Jack? But Phil is gone. Now Mills keep up his game and see how many good young cheap players he can bring. (Currently he is none but rightfully so)

7) Who are you? Unless you say you are player-first fan, I don't know you are one. Actually I don't know you at all other than you tried super hard in pro-melo (a lot of fans do) and anti-phil (a lot of fan do as well)

So, one of below has to be true:

A) You happened to be Lin, Melo and KP fans and you feel offended.
B) You can represent all of Knicks fans in the world and you are very confident all of them are not player-first.
C) You are a superhero in secret and you can read people mind.


8) I am not confused. Frustrated, sure. Who wouldn't? The day we really needed a guy who knows talents , he got fired. If there is a only one thing Phil has done pretty well as a prez, it is that he knows talents. But it is too bad he didn't last long.


9) Sometimes reality are too funny to be true. Phil said Melo needed to pass the ball to be MJ or Kobe, people got super angry. But Mills and Gaines laughed on Melo's training video, fans were silent. I suggest you should now collect more and more dirty things about Mills and Gaines too.

10) Actually I lied. I know a little about you. You love Melo very much. Too bad he doesn't return the love. Collectively, you tried so hard to show how bad Phil he was in order to help melo "win". It is just like CNN and Trump. (keep in mind I don't say Trump doesn't deserve it) Now, Phil got fired. But suddenly Melo was like "Thanks but no thanks. I always want to have a chance to win a ring. (or play a playoff game)" If there is one who got confused, it is melo's fan, not me.

11) we lost a very good basketball mind, who may not help us win, but it is quite possible he could have helped us to draft next KP. AND we lost another very talented player who is still super good in his later basketball life. We lost them BOTH and have nothing to show for it. I mean if melo said I would stay if Phil gone, I would still have a reason to accept it is a ok deal. But it is not. Melo always wanted to go anyway. If he didn't want to stay here without Phil , of course he would not want to stay with Phil.

12) So confusing, right? Melo fans have to question what they have accomplished other than helping the careers of some guys like Frank Isola or Steve Mills. The one who confused is the guys who try to act normal and suddenly assume Dolan's guys are the one who know how to do operate an NBA team.

13) I have joined here 6 months but I have lurked around almost 4 years. I like to read, and at the past I read this board EVERY SINGLE DAY.

14) If you try to use "You have no right to question me because you are new", then I know you indirectly admit you are on the losing cause. What else can you say? Argue by logic?

15) Don't be afraid to get banned, unless you intend to use a weapon called "personal attack", and I assume you don't want to. Right?

16) Actually you can. English is not my first language. You have a very good chance to win if we exchange dirt.

17) But I am too lazy.

18) At last, I actually feel bad for you. I was once a melo fan. I still remember clearly how happy he was when Derrick Williams tipped, tipped, tipped, tipped in the ball. I thought he changed and he would put the team above all ( I was wrong) Melo fans assumed he was very loyal until the end but he wanted to go away. People would think he would give us more team choices so we could have better deal but he did not. It feel like you trusted someone like a friend but it turns out he is not a friend at all.

19) At last, don't think too big about yourself. I didn't talk about you. I talked about a phenomenon. The cultural problem of New York Knicks fans. The team was so bad for so long time. People intend to shift their attention to a player to lessen the pain. Since a player can have a very successful career (relatively) when the team is super bad. (Again I feel like I talked about melo)

What else do you want me to respond? Just ask me and I answer it.

CrushAlot wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.

Great post. I have seen this tendency to use how long someone has posted here a the basis of being right and above being challenged by new people who join, repeated ad nauseum. You did a great job of addressing that. Also the team first mindset isn't the same for all fans. Some people only care about what entertainment they get in the short term and could care less if it hurts the team in the long term. And that's not wrong, people can want what they want. A forum will always provide plenty of people of both types and we will argue incessantly about the merits and demerits of one position over another. It's what we do. And English is not my first language either, it's irrelevant really.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Bonn1997
Posts: 58320
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Joined: 2/2/2004
Member: #581
USA
10/15/2017  10:13 AM
fishmike wrote:Atl... they lose Horford, Milsap and THjr to FA. Three of their most productive players. They retain Bazemore for the same money that THjr got. Bazemore is a very good defender, better than THjr, but he's a bad offensive player. I would much rather have THjr for the same money, especially considering THjr is also 3 years younger.

What is Atl doing? They knew after losing Milsap they were not going to be very good and I suspect they simply didnt want to pay THjr that much money when they had Bazemore at the same position. I think they wanted to avoid a situation like Portland where they ended up with redundant guys getting paid.

Atl doesnt have a strong history to lean on here


I'm sure Atlanta fans say the same thing about us!
fishmike
Posts: 47712
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
10/15/2017  10:27 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
fishmike wrote:Atl... they lose Horford, Milsap and THjr to FA. Three of their most productive players. They retain Bazemore for the same money that THjr got. Bazemore is a very good defender, better than THjr, but he's a bad offensive player. I would much rather have THjr for the same money, especially considering THjr is also 3 years younger.

What is Atl doing? They knew after losing Milsap they were not going to be very good and I suspect they simply didnt want to pay THjr that much money when they had Bazemore at the same position. I think they wanted to avoid a situation like Portland where they ended up with redundant guys getting paid.

Atl doesnt have a strong history to lean on here


I'm sure Atlanta fans say the same thing about us!
Knick FA hasnt been bad at all in recent years. Lee, THjr, Tyson, Amare, Noah, Lopez, was Felton a FA? I mean the thing with the Knicks is they have overpaid for health risks like Amare and Noah, but if you look at the guys they were actually able to sign in the last 8 years or so its not bad. No really big fish but otherwise some good players. Considering how hard its been to get guys to play under Dolan's dumpster fire the Knicks FA signings actually strike me as pretty good. We phucked up the draft and made terrible trades. FAs were not bad IMO
fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
CrushAlot
Posts: 55259
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Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
10/15/2017  1:25 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:Okay, I answer you every and single part very seriously.

1) Thibs wanted to come but Phil didn't want him. It is a fact and I don't think he is right or wrong. It was just his choice and he lived with it. Jeff didn't do well, but Thib did badly with a lot of talents.

2) Jeff didn't do triangle. He didn't know triangle. The team didn't go a lot of triangle until all-star break. They did because "the modern way" didn't work for this team.

3) Prez/coach relationship were good. Didn't people said Jeff was a puppet of Phil a few days ago? Now they were not on the same pages now?

4) The team were losing and the prez wanted to change something and used a system which helped him win 11 rings. Now again it is wrong? He tried one way (triangle). It didn't work. He found a non-triangle coach who promised him he would do something differently, like some offense with triangle aspects. It didn't work either. Since then the prez went back his old way. I mean, why was Jeff too good to be Phil's student? In last two years final, there were two teams and they had two coaches and they were both the former players of Phil Jackson. They sure learned something from him and I don't think Jeff are better than them.

5) You talked a lot how Phil did bad. Do you feel tired? I know it, everyone know it, and actually a lot of us agree with it. So? Now we have a very bad team and we will have a very high pick. You want Steve Mills to choose a guy or Phil Jackson to do it? First round picks have to be in the hands of someone who knows talents. Gaines was the right-hand man of PJ but he was not the right-hand man of Mills. You suddenly have a lot of trust on Dolan's bands? What have Mills done to give you the trust?

6) 5 games later, and 0-5 later, it seems people still mostly talk about the potentials of the guys Phil bought in. Sure, who would want to talk about Sessions or Jack? But Phil is gone. Now Mills keep up his game and see how many good young cheap players he can bring. (Currently he is none but rightfully so)

7) Who are you? Unless you say you are player-first fan, I don't know you are one. Actually I don't know you at all other than you tried super hard in pro-melo (a lot of fans do) and anti-phil (a lot of fan do as well)

So, one of below has to be true:

A) You happened to be Lin, Melo and KP fans and you feel offended.
B) You can represent all of Knicks fans in the world and you are very confident all of them are not player-first.
C) You are a superhero in secret and you can read people mind.


8) I am not confused. Frustrated, sure. Who wouldn't? The day we really needed a guy who knows talents , he got fired. If there is a only one thing Phil has done pretty well as a prez, it is that he knows talents. But it is too bad he didn't last long.


9) Sometimes reality are too funny to be true. Phil said Melo needed to pass the ball to be MJ or Kobe, people got super angry. But Mills and Gaines laughed on Melo's training video, fans were silent. I suggest you should now collect more and more dirty things about Mills and Gaines too.

10) Actually I lied. I know a little about you. You love Melo very much. Too bad he doesn't return the love. Collectively, you tried so hard to show how bad Phil he was in order to help melo "win". It is just like CNN and Trump. (keep in mind I don't say Trump doesn't deserve it) Now, Phil got fired. But suddenly Melo was like "Thanks but no thanks. I always want to have a chance to win a ring. (or play a playoff game)" If there is one who got confused, it is melo's fan, not me.

11) we lost a very good basketball mind, who may not help us win, but it is quite possible he could have helped us to draft next KP. AND we lost another very talented player who is still super good in his later basketball life. We lost them BOTH and have nothing to show for it. I mean if melo said I would stay if Phil gone, I would still have a reason to accept it is a ok deal. But it is not. Melo always wanted to go anyway. If he didn't want to stay here without Phil , of course he would not want to stay with Phil.

12) So confusing, right? Melo fans have to question what they have accomplished other than helping the careers of some guys like Frank Isola or Steve Mills. The one who confused is the guys who try to act normal and suddenly assume Dolan's guys are the one who know how to do operate an NBA team.

13) I have joined here 6 months but I have lurked around almost 4 years. I like to read, and at the past I read this board EVERY SINGLE DAY.

14) If you try to use "You have no right to question me because you are new", then I know you indirectly admit you are on the losing cause. What else can you say? Argue by logic?

15) Don't be afraid to get banned, unless you intend to use a weapon called "personal attack", and I assume you don't want to. Right?

16) Actually you can. English is not my first language. You have a very good chance to win if we exchange dirt.

17) But I am too lazy.

18) At last, I actually feel bad for you. I was once a melo fan. I still remember clearly how happy he was when Derrick Williams tipped, tipped, tipped, tipped in the ball. I thought he changed and he would put the team above all ( I was wrong) Melo fans assumed he was very loyal until the end but he wanted to go away. People would think he would give us more team choices so we could have better deal but he did not. It feel like you trusted someone like a friend but it turns out he is not a friend at all.

19) At last, don't think too big about yourself. I didn't talk about you. I talked about a phenomenon. The cultural problem of New York Knicks fans. The team was so bad for so long time. People intend to shift their attention to a player to lessen the pain. Since a player can have a very successful career (relatively) when the team is super bad. (Again I feel like I talked about melo)

What else do you want me to respond? Just ask me and I answer it.

CrushAlot wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:In Atlanta, he would not want to be sent back to D-league again so he played hard. They have disciplines.

Here, if a coach calls his player "*****", he should be fired. If a prez says a player should pass the ball, he should be fired too. We are always on the players side and now we want them to grow up and be accountable? I think they would not. They just play the way they want and if management don't like it, easy. Just call his media friends and they will create a lot of things and incite the anger.

People fired, players' lives go on. It is just the life of Knicks.

At the end, we don't actually root for the success of the team. We root for the careers of our favorite players. It doesn't matter if he is Lin, Melo or KP. It just repeats the history.

Quite a few people here were hoping Thibs would be hired when Phil decided not to give Rambis the job. I think most posters here long for a coach in the mold of Riley or JVG but the previous Pres wanted a coach that would let him choose the system, have input into what was being done on the court and in practice. Guys like Riles, JVG, Thibs and Coach Bud don't fit that mold. GM/Coach relationships that are successful involve a gm getting a guy to coach that has the same vision for the team and then letting him coach and giving him input into what players are brought in. That wasn't what was set up with Phil and Jeff and it isn't the situation now. I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters. Again, being frustrated with mismanagement, and incompetent management is not the same as what you describe. Phil had a tremendous opportunity. He was the only guy that ever had autonomy to run the club and he sucked really bad. Phil had full autonomy for every move made during his tenure. Rosen talked about it on a podcast right after Phil was fired. He said it was the only way Phil would do the job. He sucked at it but he had an amazing opportunity no one else has had since Dolan owned the team.

Great post. I have seen this tendency to use how long someone has posted here a the basis of being right and above being challenged by new people who join, repeated ad nauseum. You did a great job of addressing that. Also the team first mindset isn't the same for all fans. Some people only care about what entertainment they get in the short term and could care less if it hurts the team in the long term. And that's not wrong, people can want what they want. A forum will always provide plenty of people of both types and we will argue incessantly about the merits and demerits of one position over another. It's what we do. And English is not my first language either, it's irrelevant really.


Interesting. That is what you got out of this?
I think you are confusing posters being frustrated with incompetent management, and mismanagement with being star player first fans. I think you are underestimating guys that post here and their loyalties and I am not sure why. I look at this forum as a community of fans. Many of the guys that post here have been here well over a decade. When I started posting here my oldest son was 7. He is going to be 22 in a few months. I think that is the case for a lot of posters.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
THJr is going to justify his contract

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