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Justin Holiday: Did we make a mistake?
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NYKBocker
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10/12/2017  2:53 PM
I really liked Holiday and wish he was signed but losing him and getting THJr is a non issue to me. Unless Justin becomes an All-Star then this was not a mistake. We needed another player that can be viewed as 2nd to KP and Holiday just did not have that clout.
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mlby1215
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10/12/2017  3:41 PM
We need the slots and money to sign some young guys like Sessions or Jack, since they fit pretty well with the timeline of KP.
I can't believe Mills or Perry would sign someone older than 24. It doesn't make sense.

Or we should get more offense players to build our defense first, playing hard team. Someone like THjr or Kanters fit much better than Holidays. Other than shooting the ball, what does Holidays know? He will not fit in the culture we want to build on.

BigDaddyG
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10/12/2017  4:24 PM
martin wrote:For me I think the underlying issue of THJr versus a guy like Holiday is not only the age difference (along with salary), but the continuity you get playing with KP, Willy, Frank, etc.

Maybe you get 2 years of so-so with Holiday... and then what? You still have to find another player to fill that role.

The Knicks aren't competing for playoffs this year or deep playoffs next year, so with THJr you hopefully get a solid starter and build team continuity. With Holiday, you don't.


I gotta be honest....I'm already looking at ways to upgrade two-guard position. Hardaway is solid, but he's easily upgradeable. The problem is that his deal makes hard for that too happen. I just don't see the point in locking in long-term when we are still a long ways from playing winning basketball.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
CrushAlot
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10/12/2017  4:59 PM
If the Knicks could have gotten him for the deal he signed with the Bulls then they made a mistake. He may have really wanted to go back to Chicago.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
Knixkik
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10/12/2017  5:12 PM
martin wrote:For me I think the underlying issue of THJr versus a guy like Holiday is not only the age difference (along with salary), but the continuity you get playing with KP, Willy, Frank, etc.

Maybe you get 2 years of so-so with Holiday... and then what? You still have to find another player to fill that role.

The Knicks aren't competing for playoffs this year or deep playoffs next year, so with THJr you hopefully get a solid starter and build team continuity. With Holiday, you don't.


That's exactly right. The goal is to build chemistry with this group long-term. KP, Ntilikina, and Hardaway are long-term starters to begin with. I see this as trying to build similar to the Memphis Grizzlies did. Gasol, Conley, Randolph, and Allen were the core of a long-term playoff team, who's success was consistently better than the sum of its parts because they had a core team and chemistry.
nixluva
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10/12/2017  5:25 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
martin wrote:For me I think the underlying issue of THJr versus a guy like Holiday is not only the age difference (along with salary), but the continuity you get playing with KP, Willy, Frank, etc.

Maybe you get 2 years of so-so with Holiday... and then what? You still have to find another player to fill that role.

The Knicks aren't competing for playoffs this year or deep playoffs next year, so with THJr you hopefully get a solid starter and build team continuity. With Holiday, you don't.


I gotta be honest....I'm already looking at ways to upgrade two-guard position. Hardaway is solid, but he's easily upgradeable. The problem is that his deal makes hard for that too happen. I just don't see the point in locking in long-term when we are still a long ways from playing winning basketball.

I think across the board there tends to be a fundamental disrespect for Tim Hardaway. Sure he's not the Cream of the Crop but he's not as "easily upgradeable" as you may think!

2016-17 Real Plus-Minus - Shooting Guards
RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM DRPM RPM WINS
1 James Harden HOU 81 36.4 6.38 -1.57 4.81 15.54
2 Klay Thompson GS 78 34.0 2.78 -0.45 2.33 9.53
3 Bradley Beal WSH 77 34.9 3.29 -1.04 2.25 9.26
4 CJ McCollum POR 80 35.0 3.01 -1.87 1.14 7.52
5 Victor Oladipo OKC 67 33.2 0.10 1.56 1.66 6.88
6 Andre Roberson OKC 79 30.1 -1.40 2.64 1.24 6.73
7 Nicolas Batum CHA 77 34.0 1.30 -0.35 0.95 6.73
8 Lou Williams HOU/LAL 81 24.6 3.65 -1.68 1.97 6.73
9 Eric Gordon HOU 75 31.0 1.51 -0.48 1.03 6.36
10 DeMar DeRozan TOR 74 35.4 2.21 -2.04 0.17 5.46
11 Tim Hardaway Jr. ATL 79 27.3 1.90 -1.08 0.82 5.45

2016-17 Real Plus-Minus - Shooting Guards
RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM DRPM RPM WINS
1 James Harden HOU 81 36.4 6.38 -1.57 4.81 15.54
2 Manu Ginobili SA 69 18.7 1.43 1.00 2.43 4.64
3 Klay Thompson GS 78 34.0 2.78 -0.45 2.33 9.53
4 Bradley Beal WSH 77 34.9 3.29 -1.04 2.25 9.26
5 Lou Williams HOU/LAL 81 24.6 3.65 -1.68 1.97 6.73
6 Victor Oladipo OKC 67 33.2 0.10 1.56 1.66 6.88
7 Vince Carter MEM 73 24.7 1.36 -0.06 1.30 4.81
8 Kyle Anderson SA 72 14.2 -1.81 3.11 1.30 2.84
9 Danny Green SA 68 26.6 -0.45 1.71 1.26 4.83
10 Andre Roberson OKC 79 30.1 -1.40 2.64 1.24 6.73
11 CJ McCollum POR 80 35.0 3.01 -1.87 1.14 7.52
12 Eric Gordon HOU 75 31.0 1.51 -0.48 1.03 6.36
13 Nicolas Batum CHA 77 34.0 1.30 -0.35 0.95 6.73
14 Tim Hardaway Jr. ATL 79 27.3 1.90 -1.08 0.82 5.45


http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/2

Hardaway has his Defensive Consistency issues but when he's dialed in he's actually one of the better SGs in the entire league.

MS
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10/12/2017  6:03 PM
How is Frank a long term starter. The guy didn’t play in summer league and has played one preseason game and could barely score.

Let’s not anoint him just yet.

nixluva
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10/12/2017  7:10 PM
MS wrote:How is Frank a long term starter. The guy didn’t play in summer league and has played one preseason game and could barely score.

Let’s not anoint him just yet.


Kid was a top 8 pick so of course you're going to look at him as a long term starter. Ntilikina is only 18 but If you can't project even a little bit then that's one thing but for those who see his talent and BBIQ as well as his shooting form, he projects to be a very good 2Way player.
Knixkik
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10/12/2017  7:48 PM
MS wrote:How is Frank a long term starter. The guy didn’t play in summer league and has played one preseason game and could barely score.

Let’s not anoint him just yet.

The plan is for him to develop into a starter. Nothing is guaranteed but it's obvious the franchise views him as the PG of the future. That's not even debatable.

TripleThreat
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10/12/2017  8:33 PM
MS wrote:A little perplexing the way they are building the roster with maringal point guards and centers.


Yes and No

No, for long term purposes. He's an interesting player. He at least is a grinder. But he's not reliable as a starter level player. He's got a bit of "Carl Pavano Disease" to him , i.e. will produce with nothing at stake. His current burn is based on the Bulls roster gutting/health situation. His production rate is likely unsustainable.

Yes, for short term reflipping in a trade purposes. His skill set might have been a useful flier for a team at the deadline.

Hardaway Jr has far more talent. Holiday makes more of the talent he has in place. The 4th year player option for THJr makes him pretty much untradeable at this point.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
HofstraBBall
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10/12/2017  10:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/12/2017  10:14 PM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Holiday is 28 and THJ just turned 25. The Knicks also drafted Dotson. I think it was based on the KP Timeline. They clearly want players who will be closer to his age so they can run together.

So let's overpay for guys that similar just because they are three years apart?

you really think THjr and Holiday are similar? They are not.

Okay. What do you think they do so differently? I think similar in that they are sparks off the bench. Dont see Timmy as more than that. Amd i like them both. Holiday better on defense.

Well Timmy wasnt the spark off the bench. Once Korver was moved he was the starter, the 2nd scorer for that team during that stretch, did so for a winning team that went to the playoffs and during so posted a .560 TS%. By comparison Melo's TS% the last 3 years has been .530 and you call him a superstar. So there is that.

Timmy did that for a 2 month span. Maybe too small a sample size to award that contract... one could certainly make that argument but only time will tell that. Point is Timmy showed it for an extended stretch and for a winning team. Holiday has never shown anything close to that.

Why are we acting like were talking about a guy that just got into the league? I like Tim. Know how he plays.
Did not want him traded. But to take a guy that was okay here, mainly a bench player, sent to the D league and pay him for 4 years with a NTC after "2 months" of good play? Nah, thats asking for trouble. Makes no sense.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
Sangfroid
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10/13/2017  12:56 AM
fishmike wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:How could we not? But don't worry, someone would tell your it is just pre-season.
or maybe they will just say it didnt make sense to lock up a 28 year old player who is likely never starting material in the league on a rebuilding team. Instead we gave the same money Holiday got to Baker. He's 4 years younger. Dotson replaces Holiday which is the better fit

I have to believe that a back court of Holiday and Dotson would be better than Baker and anybody. Unless this is a thinly veiled tank job. 10 million in NY is just as good in Chi town, maybe better. They missed out on a good player. Did I mention that his defense is head and shoulders above THJ's? Really not trying to win anything this year.

"We are playing a game. We are playing at not playing a game..."
nixluva
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10/13/2017  1:15 AM
Sangfroid wrote:
fishmike wrote:
mlby1215 wrote:How could we not? But don't worry, someone would tell your it is just pre-season.
or maybe they will just say it didnt make sense to lock up a 28 year old player who is likely never starting material in the league on a rebuilding team. Instead we gave the same money Holiday got to Baker. He's 4 years younger. Dotson replaces Holiday which is the better fit

I have to believe that a back court of Holiday and Dotson would be better than Baker and anybody. Unless this is a thinly veiled tank job. 10 million in NY is just as good in Chi town, maybe better. They missed out on a good player. Did I mention that his defense is head and shoulders above THJ's? Really not trying to win anything this year.

The same way you now appreciate Holidays game just remember he just achieved this level last year! So what's to say the same can't happen with a Baker? Hindsight is 20/20 but when we got Holiday he hadn't done anything in his career. So now he's improved but is 28! We have THJ, Dotson and Baker who are all younger.

fishmike
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10/13/2017  8:39 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Holiday is 28 and THJ just turned 25. The Knicks also drafted Dotson. I think it was based on the KP Timeline. They clearly want players who will be closer to his age so they can run together.

So let's overpay for guys that similar just because they are three years apart?

you really think THjr and Holiday are similar? They are not.

Okay. What do you think they do so differently? I think similar in that they are sparks off the bench. Dont see Timmy as more than that. Amd i like them both. Holiday better on defense.

Well Timmy wasnt the spark off the bench. Once Korver was moved he was the starter, the 2nd scorer for that team during that stretch, did so for a winning team that went to the playoffs and during so posted a .560 TS%. By comparison Melo's TS% the last 3 years has been .530 and you call him a superstar. So there is that.

Timmy did that for a 2 month span. Maybe too small a sample size to award that contract... one could certainly make that argument but only time will tell that. Point is Timmy showed it for an extended stretch and for a winning team. Holiday has never shown anything close to that.

Why are we acting like were talking about a guy that just got into the league? I like Tim. Know how he plays.
Did not want him traded. But to take a guy that was okay here, mainly a bench player, sent to the D league and pay him for 4 years with a NTC after "2 months" of good play? Nah, thats asking for trouble. Makes no sense.

Knicks believe he is trending upward and at his age that is certainly feasible. Knicks are saying he's not the same the guy he was the first 3 years in the league. Thats what they are betting on, that this 25 year old still has another level to get to and what he showed last year is trending and not a hot streak. You can disagree with that assessment. But makes no sense? Makes perfect sense. They are essentially spending high and buy low. If Timmy was a lock to be what they hope they wouldnt have been able to sign him. There is risk, thats how we got him and why he was available.

But regardless Timmy is a real scorer. Holiday is not. He knocks down the open jumper and plays defense. I just dont get how you see them as similar.

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meloshouldgo
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10/13/2017  3:50 PM
nixluva wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
martin wrote:For me I think the underlying issue of THJr versus a guy like Holiday is not only the age difference (along with salary), but the continuity you get playing with KP, Willy, Frank, etc.

Maybe you get 2 years of so-so with Holiday... and then what? You still have to find another player to fill that role.

The Knicks aren't competing for playoffs this year or deep playoffs next year, so with THJr you hopefully get a solid starter and build team continuity. With Holiday, you don't.


I gotta be honest....I'm already looking at ways to upgrade two-guard position. Hardaway is solid, but he's easily upgradeable. The problem is that his deal makes hard for that too happen. I just don't see the point in locking in long-term when we are still a long ways from playing winning basketball.

I think across the board there tends to be a fundamental disrespect for Tim Hardaway. Sure he's not the Cream of the Crop but he's not as "easily upgradeable" as you may think!

2016-17 Real Plus-Minus - Shooting Guards
RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM DRPM RPM WINS
1 James Harden HOU 81 36.4 6.38 -1.57 4.81 15.54
2 Klay Thompson GS 78 34.0 2.78 -0.45 2.33 9.53
3 Bradley Beal WSH 77 34.9 3.29 -1.04 2.25 9.26
4 CJ McCollum POR 80 35.0 3.01 -1.87 1.14 7.52
5 Victor Oladipo OKC 67 33.2 0.10 1.56 1.66 6.88
6 Andre Roberson OKC 79 30.1 -1.40 2.64 1.24 6.73
7 Nicolas Batum CHA 77 34.0 1.30 -0.35 0.95 6.73
8 Lou Williams HOU/LAL 81 24.6 3.65 -1.68 1.97 6.73
9 Eric Gordon HOU 75 31.0 1.51 -0.48 1.03 6.36
10 DeMar DeRozan TOR 74 35.4 2.21 -2.04 0.17 5.46
11 Tim Hardaway Jr. ATL 79 27.3 1.90 -1.08 0.82 5.45

2016-17 Real Plus-Minus - Shooting Guards
RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM DRPM RPM WINS
1 James Harden HOU 81 36.4 6.38 -1.57 4.81 15.54
2 Manu Ginobili SA 69 18.7 1.43 1.00 2.43 4.64
3 Klay Thompson GS 78 34.0 2.78 -0.45 2.33 9.53
4 Bradley Beal WSH 77 34.9 3.29 -1.04 2.25 9.26
5 Lou Williams HOU/LAL 81 24.6 3.65 -1.68 1.97 6.73
6 Victor Oladipo OKC 67 33.2 0.10 1.56 1.66 6.88
7 Vince Carter MEM 73 24.7 1.36 -0.06 1.30 4.81
8 Kyle Anderson SA 72 14.2 -1.81 3.11 1.30 2.84
9 Danny Green SA 68 26.6 -0.45 1.71 1.26 4.83
10 Andre Roberson OKC 79 30.1 -1.40 2.64 1.24 6.73
11 CJ McCollum POR 80 35.0 3.01 -1.87 1.14 7.52
12 Eric Gordon HOU 75 31.0 1.51 -0.48 1.03 6.36
13 Nicolas Batum CHA 77 34.0 1.30 -0.35 0.95 6.73
14 Tim Hardaway Jr. ATL 79 27.3 1.90 -1.08 0.82 5.45


http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/2

Hardaway has his Defensive Consistency issues but when he's dialed in he's actually one of the better SGs in the entire league.

I will ask directly - do you exoect the WS to hold up? If not is it really helping you make your case?

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Cartman718
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10/13/2017  4:03 PM
i understand what martin said about 2 years from holiday and thjr provides longevity in that sense. would still rather have holiday than baker though.
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
HofstraBBall
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10/13/2017  4:53 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/13/2017  4:59 PM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Holiday is 28 and THJ just turned 25. The Knicks also drafted Dotson. I think it was based on the KP Timeline. They clearly want players who will be closer to his age so they can run together.

So let's overpay for guys that similar just because they are three years apart?

you really think THjr and Holiday are similar? They are not.

Okay. What do you think they do so differently? I think similar in that they are sparks off the bench. Dont see Timmy as more than that. Amd i like them both. Holiday better on defense.

Well Timmy wasnt the spark off the bench. Once Korver was moved he was the starter, the 2nd scorer for that team during that stretch, did so for a winning team that went to the playoffs and during so posted a .560 TS%. By comparison Melo's TS% the last 3 years has been .530 and you call him a superstar. So there is that.

Timmy did that for a 2 month span. Maybe too small a sample size to award that contract... one could certainly make that argument but only time will tell that. Point is Timmy showed it for an extended stretch and for a winning team. Holiday has never shown anything close to that.

Why are we acting like were talking about a guy that just got into the league? I like Tim. Know how he plays.
Did not want him traded. But to take a guy that was okay here, mainly a bench player, sent to the D league and pay him for 4 years with a NTC after "2 months" of good play? Nah, thats asking for trouble. Makes no sense.

Knicks believe he is trending upward and at his age that is certainly feasible. Knicks are saying he's not the same the guy he was the first 3 years in the league. Thats what they are betting on, that this 25 year old still has another level to get to and what he showed last year is trending and not a hot streak. You can disagree with that assessment. But makes no sense? Makes perfect sense. They are essentially spending high and buy low. If Timmy was a lock to be what they hope they wouldnt have been able to sign him. There is risk, thats how we got him and why he was available.

But regardless Timmy is a real scorer. Holiday is not. He knocks down the open jumper and plays defense. I just dont get how you see them as similar.

What you just described makes sense if your taking a chance on a guy for 1 maybe 2 years. Makes no sense when signing a guy to 4 years with NTC. Again, as you said, "they are betting on" him. Him being 2 months worth of success. Just dont think that is a smart bet. IMO. There was no reason to sign a guy like to Timmy to that type of contract when the team is in rebuild mode. As we will probably have a high pick and could add any need (Player like Timmy) at that point. Specially when we already have Lee.

But okay, lets see how this pans out. So far we disagree about most things. Noah, Frank, Smith Jr., and now Timmy being worth the contract. Hope you are right about all. But then again you thought Phil (Triangle) was the right guy(system) for our rebuild.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
Andrew
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10/13/2017  5:09 PM
Wait....are people saying THJ has a no trade clause? Don't think that is correct. Trade kicker yes...but that is entirely different.
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nixluva
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10/13/2017  6:05 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
nixluva wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
martin wrote:For me I think the underlying issue of THJr versus a guy like Holiday is not only the age difference (along with salary), but the continuity you get playing with KP, Willy, Frank, etc.

Maybe you get 2 years of so-so with Holiday... and then what? You still have to find another player to fill that role.

The Knicks aren't competing for playoffs this year or deep playoffs next year, so with THJr you hopefully get a solid starter and build team continuity. With Holiday, you don't.


I gotta be honest....I'm already looking at ways to upgrade two-guard position. Hardaway is solid, but he's easily upgradeable. The problem is that his deal makes hard for that too happen. I just don't see the point in locking in long-term when we are still a long ways from playing winning basketball.

I think across the board there tends to be a fundamental disrespect for Tim Hardaway. Sure he's not the Cream of the Crop but he's not as "easily upgradeable" as you may think!

2016-17 Real Plus-Minus - Shooting Guards
RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM DRPM RPM WINS
1 James Harden HOU 81 36.4 6.38 -1.57 4.81 15.54
2 Klay Thompson GS 78 34.0 2.78 -0.45 2.33 9.53
3 Bradley Beal WSH 77 34.9 3.29 -1.04 2.25 9.26
4 CJ McCollum POR 80 35.0 3.01 -1.87 1.14 7.52
5 Victor Oladipo OKC 67 33.2 0.10 1.56 1.66 6.88
6 Andre Roberson OKC 79 30.1 -1.40 2.64 1.24 6.73
7 Nicolas Batum CHA 77 34.0 1.30 -0.35 0.95 6.73
8 Lou Williams HOU/LAL 81 24.6 3.65 -1.68 1.97 6.73
9 Eric Gordon HOU 75 31.0 1.51 -0.48 1.03 6.36
10 DeMar DeRozan TOR 74 35.4 2.21 -2.04 0.17 5.46
11 Tim Hardaway Jr. ATL 79 27.3 1.90 -1.08 0.82 5.45

2016-17 Real Plus-Minus - Shooting Guards
RK NAME TEAM GP MPG ORPM DRPM RPM WINS
1 James Harden HOU 81 36.4 6.38 -1.57 4.81 15.54
2 Manu Ginobili SA 69 18.7 1.43 1.00 2.43 4.64
3 Klay Thompson GS 78 34.0 2.78 -0.45 2.33 9.53
4 Bradley Beal WSH 77 34.9 3.29 -1.04 2.25 9.26
5 Lou Williams HOU/LAL 81 24.6 3.65 -1.68 1.97 6.73
6 Victor Oladipo OKC 67 33.2 0.10 1.56 1.66 6.88
7 Vince Carter MEM 73 24.7 1.36 -0.06 1.30 4.81
8 Kyle Anderson SA 72 14.2 -1.81 3.11 1.30 2.84
9 Danny Green SA 68 26.6 -0.45 1.71 1.26 4.83
10 Andre Roberson OKC 79 30.1 -1.40 2.64 1.24 6.73
11 CJ McCollum POR 80 35.0 3.01 -1.87 1.14 7.52
12 Eric Gordon HOU 75 31.0 1.51 -0.48 1.03 6.36
13 Nicolas Batum CHA 77 34.0 1.30 -0.35 0.95 6.73
14 Tim Hardaway Jr. ATL 79 27.3 1.90 -1.08 0.82 5.45


http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS/position/2

Hardaway has his Defensive Consistency issues but when he's dialed in he's actually one of the better SGs in the entire league.

I will ask directly - do you exoect the WS to hold up? If not is it really helping you make your case?

Bruh I can go with RPM or TS% and still make a case for THJ! He's not a perfect player but he's still one of the more talented SG's in the league.

TripleThreat
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10/13/2017  9:59 PM
fishmike wrote:Thats what they are betting on, that this 25 year old still has another level to get to and what he showed last year is trending and not a hot streak. You can disagree with that assessment. But makes no sense? Makes perfect sense. They are essentially spending high and buy low.


If one looks at it strictly from a market based perspective, i.e. Hardaway Jr as a raw asset given the current trends around the league and the push/pull of wing value against opportunity cost, the signing was a horrible long range decision. It's not defensible from a market based perspective.

If one looks at it strictly from "Steve Mills Is Lame Duck And Wants To Keep His Job" perspective, then it makes sense why Mills did it. It's not good for the team across the long haul, but Mills is not thinking 4 years from now, he's thinking of the next four weeks, the next four months.

This is why lame duck situations are bad for ANY sports franchise. They are better off just firing someone.

A few more wins might mean Mills keeps his job versus not. He's very much in a bad situation like Rod Higgins was when he was between Rich Cho and Michael Jordan ( despite a long standing history with other people in the league, people stopped talking to Rod Higgins, they just called Rich Cho instead, because Higgins could not actually answer any questions and had no real decision making power) All Mills is right now is a hindrance to Perry from doing his job the right way.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Justin Holiday: Did we make a mistake?

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