[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Kanter Top 10
Author Thread
awe1028
Posts: 20199
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/4/2009
Member: #2780

10/7/2017  7:07 PM
People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

AUTOADVERT
reub
Posts: 21836
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/13/2016
Member: #6227

10/7/2017  8:42 PM
awe1028 wrote:People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

WS48s of .200 don't grow on trees. Melo never had one that high. Kanter contributes to winning and is still young.

TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

10/7/2017  11:23 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:
franco12 wrote:I kinda can't believe we got Kanter for Melo. He's a great talent. Sure, we are kinda crowded up front. I'd like to see if we can showcase him, and then trade him at the deadline to a team that wants to add some firepower heading into the playoffs. I could totally see deals with Boston or Cleveland where we get back one of their top picks.

Kanter is young, and he's great- but he's already getting paid top dollar, and unless there is some reasonable deal for Noah, I don't see how we can keep Kanter & Noah and have both KP & Willy due for big paydays. The math doesn't work.

yes, we will have to trade one of the centers. I hate the idea of buying out Noah with so much length on his deal. We didn't really need Kanter before the trade, but he can play.

Before the trade I would have never said trade Willy but that's what makes the most sense. He is on a great contract, so his value may never be higher. I'd love to keep KP, Willy, Kanter and let Kanter be our sixth man of the year candidate.

That said, if we don't trade one of these guys, we're going to have the same problem we had when it Chandler, Melo, Amar'e and we had to pray for Jeremy Lin to fall from the sky. The money that Willy will make moving forward basically needs to get spent on SF, maybe at PG if Frank doesn't pan out (I know everyone here thinks he's a certain HOFer already, but I'd prefer to wait and see the production)

If Enes Kanter had value to the Cavs or Celtics, they would have traded for him already.

What could the Celtics send as a salary match that would not gut their team?

The Cavs need to trade for yet ANOTHER big man who can't defend the rim?

The Celtics have to build to worry about the Cavs. The Cavs have to worry about the Warriors. Both situations need DEFENSE. Kanter provides none. Zero.

OKC tried to trade dude for a long time, and they couldn't. Because no one wants him at his current AAV and cap hit.

The Knicks want to build around Porzingis, and you guys want to trade his best friend off the roster? A cost controlled guy who MIGHT get better defensively, to rely on Kanter ( expensive and might walk or the Knick will let him walk the offseason after he opts in) and an aging injury prone guy in Noah?

Or maybe if the Celtics and Cavs need some deadline help, they'll trade for EXPIRING CONTRACTS who might show some limited value.

Gordon Hayward and Kyrie Irving can both create their own shot. Tatum is a rookie and can do it more than many NBA veterans now even. Offense is not going to be a problem for this team.

The Cavs have Wade, Love, LBJ, Korver, Crowder, they will be fine on offense.

There's a reason Kanter was available in the first place.

If you guys can see a practical trade for both the Cavs and Celtics, that offers a salary match that won't gut their team to do it, I'm sure all of us here in the forums would like to hear it.

CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
10/8/2017  12:08 AM
awe1028 wrote:People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

The Knicks ad a top 2 offensive player that didn't play good defense but is better than Kanter. They only had 1 gm that tried to build around his strengths and weaknesses. It worked but he was let go. I agree about Kanter's offensive talents but I think he might be more of a situational player. He gets buckets or gets to the line. I also agree that the Knicks should not be rushing to make a trade until they know what they have.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
awe1028
Posts: 20199
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/4/2009
Member: #2780

10/8/2017  2:21 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
awe1028 wrote:People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

The Knicks ad a top 2 offensive player that didn't play good defense but is better than Kanter. They only had 1 gm that tried to build around his strengths and weaknesses. It worked but he was let go. I agree about Kanter's offensive talents but I think he might be more of a situational player. He gets buckets or gets to the line. I also agree that the Knicks should not be rushing to make a trade until they know what they have.

Excellent point. The Knicks wasted all those prime Melo years. Melo was an absolute offensive weapon; one of the best in NBA history. Yes he had flaws but instead of putting players around him to mitigate those weakness thereby capitalizing on his strengths they burdened him with responsibilities best left to other players blunting his impact.

People lamented the things Melo couldn't do. They said he couldn't pass or play defense. Instead of focusing on the things he could not do the Knicks should have brought in players to handle those roles and let him do what he did best - score the ball.

In 2012-2013 the Knicks did just that bought in Kidd Rasheed, Tyson Chandler and they won 54 games.

The Knicks have a similar situation with Kanter though obviously he is not quite as good as Melo. Fortunately, Perry seems to have recognized this and is bringing in players to take advantage of Kanter's offensive firepower.

franco12
Posts: 33184
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
10/8/2017  7:28 AM
awe1028 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
awe1028 wrote:People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

The Knicks ad a top 2 offensive player that didn't play good defense but is better than Kanter. They only had 1 gm that tried to build around his strengths and weaknesses. It worked but he was let go. I agree about Kanter's offensive talents but I think he might be more of a situational player. He gets buckets or gets to the line. I also agree that the Knicks should not be rushing to make a trade until they know what they have.

Excellent point. The Knicks wasted all those prime Melo years. Melo was an absolute offensive weapon; one of the best in NBA history. Yes he had flaws but instead of putting players around him to mitigate those weakness thereby capitalizing on his strengths they burdened him with responsibilities best left to other players blunting his impact.

People lamented the things Melo couldn't do. They said he couldn't pass or play defense. Instead of focusing on the things he could not do the Knicks should have brought in players to handle those roles and let him do what he did best - score the ball.

In 2012-2013 the Knicks did just that bought in Kidd Rasheed, Tyson Chandler and they won 54 games.

The Knicks have a similar situation with Kanter though obviously he is not quite as good as Melo. Fortunately, Perry seems to have recognized this and is bringing in players to take advantage of Kanter's offensive firepower.

Look- the problem with Kanter is he is already getting paid big bucks - $18m.

We have Noah still at his position, getting paid the same kind of money.

And then KP and Willy are eventually going to get paid that kind of money.

I'm not saying trade him today.

But, if he plays we'll, there will be a team - and please don't ask me to NBA trade machine a ****ing deal- willing to give us a nice package of youth/draft picks.

And that is more valuable where we are to our future, than Kanter who is nice, but needs defensive help.

franco12
Posts: 33184
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
10/8/2017  7:29 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
franco12 wrote:I kinda can't believe we got Kanter for Melo. He's a great talent. Sure, we are kinda crowded up front. I'd like to see if we can showcase him, and then trade him at the deadline to a team that wants to add some firepower heading into the playoffs. I could totally see deals with Boston or Cleveland where we get back one of their top picks.

Kanter is young, and he's great- but he's already getting paid top dollar, and unless there is some reasonable deal for Noah, I don't see how we can keep Kanter & Noah and have both KP & Willy due for big paydays. The math doesn't work.

yes, we will have to trade one of the centers. I hate the idea of buying out Noah with so much length on his deal. We didn't really need Kanter before the trade, but he can play.

Before the trade I would have never said trade Willy but that's what makes the most sense. He is on a great contract, so his value may never be higher. I'd love to keep KP, Willy, Kanter and let Kanter be our sixth man of the year candidate.

That said, if we don't trade one of these guys, we're going to have the same problem we had when it Chandler, Melo, Amar'e and we had to pray for Jeremy Lin to fall from the sky. The money that Willy will make moving forward basically needs to get spent on SF, maybe at PG if Frank doesn't pan out (I know everyone here thinks he's a certain HOFer already, but I'd prefer to wait and see the production)

If Enes Kanter had value to the Cavs or Celtics, they would have traded for him already.

What could the Celtics send as a salary match that would not gut their team?

The Cavs need to trade for yet ANOTHER big man who can't defend the rim?

The Celtics have to build to worry about the Cavs. The Cavs have to worry about the Warriors. Both situations need DEFENSE. Kanter provides none. Zero.

OKC tried to trade dude for a long time, and they couldn't. Because no one wants him at his current AAV and cap hit.

The Knicks want to build around Porzingis, and you guys want to trade his best friend off the roster? A cost controlled guy who MIGHT get better defensively, to rely on Kanter ( expensive and might walk or the Knick will let him walk the offseason after he opts in) and an aging injury prone guy in Noah?

Or maybe if the Celtics and Cavs need some deadline help, they'll trade for EXPIRING CONTRACTS who might show some limited value.

Gordon Hayward and Kyrie Irving can both create their own shot. Tatum is a rookie and can do it more than many NBA veterans now even. Offense is not going to be a problem for this team.

The Cavs have Wade, Love, LBJ, Korver, Crowder, they will be fine on offense.

There's a reason Kanter was available in the first place.

If you guys can see a practical trade for both the Cavs and Celtics, that offers a salary match that won't gut their team to do it, I'm sure all of us here in the forums would like to hear it.

How about the Cavs trade us Frye, Shumbert and Brooklyn's first rounder for Kanter?

Paris907
Posts: 21146
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/4/2015
Member: #6099
USA
10/8/2017  9:10 AM
EnySpree wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:Defends like Amare as well, brutal. Offensively one of the most talented bigs in the NBA.

Can't punish him entirely. He's got too get better. Drawing defenders on him is going too open the whole court as we know. The game plan for us will change. All of a sudden the Knicks have a plethora of shooters. We will be in the pick and roll often. On defense, he's got KP lurking like Serge did in OKC. He's 25 now... we can only hope experience will kick in. The team has got to do a good job of sealing space so we don't have to force Kanter to be Ewing in his prime on defense

Kanter the great. Kanter the 20 point scorer. But Kanter either won’t or can’t play Defense and that is still how championships are won. If your seeking to squeeze into the playoffs and get eliminated NEXT YEAR then he’s your guy! If you wAnt to challenge Boston in 3 years, then question what this guy really brings.

Kanter the great indeed.

BigRedDog
Posts: 22118
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2004
Member: #569
10/8/2017  9:13 AM
franco12 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
franco12 wrote:I kinda can't believe we got Kanter for Melo. He's a great talent. Sure, we are kinda crowded up front. I'd like to see if we can showcase him, and then trade him at the deadline to a team that wants to add some firepower heading into the playoffs. I could totally see deals with Boston or Cleveland where we get back one of their top picks.

Kanter is young, and he's great- but he's already getting paid top dollar, and unless there is some reasonable deal for Noah, I don't see how we can keep Kanter & Noah and have both KP & Willy due for big paydays. The math doesn't work.

yes, we will have to trade one of the centers. I hate the idea of buying out Noah with so much length on his deal. We didn't really need Kanter before the trade, but he can play.

Before the trade I would have never said trade Willy but that's what makes the most sense. He is on a great contract, so his value may never be higher. I'd love to keep KP, Willy, Kanter and let Kanter be our sixth man of the year candidate.

That said, if we don't trade one of these guys, we're going to have the same problem we had when it Chandler, Melo, Amar'e and we had to pray for Jeremy Lin to fall from the sky. The money that Willy will make moving forward basically needs to get spent on SF, maybe at PG if Frank doesn't pan out (I know everyone here thinks he's a certain HOFer already, but I'd prefer to wait and see the production)

If Enes Kanter had value to the Cavs or Celtics, they would have traded for him already.

What could the Celtics send as a salary match that would not gut their team?

The Cavs need to trade for yet ANOTHER big man who can't defend the rim?

The Celtics have to build to worry about the Cavs. The Cavs have to worry about the Warriors. Both situations need DEFENSE. Kanter provides none. Zero.

OKC tried to trade dude for a long time, and they couldn't. Because no one wants him at his current AAV and cap hit.

The Knicks want to build around Porzingis, and you guys want to trade his best friend off the roster? A cost controlled guy who MIGHT get better defensively, to rely on Kanter ( expensive and might walk or the Knick will let him walk the offseason after he opts in) and an aging injury prone guy in Noah?

Or maybe if the Celtics and Cavs need some deadline help, they'll trade for EXPIRING CONTRACTS who might show some limited value.

Gordon Hayward and Kyrie Irving can both create their own shot. Tatum is a rookie and can do it more than many NBA veterans now even. Offense is not going to be a problem for this team.

The Cavs have Wade, Love, LBJ, Korver, Crowder, they will be fine on offense.

There's a reason Kanter was available in the first place.

If you guys can see a practical trade for both the Cavs and Celtics, that offers a salary match that won't gut their team to do it, I'm sure all of us here in the forums would like to hear it.

How about the Cavs trade us Frye, Shumbert and Brooklyn's first rounder for Kanter?

Cavs aren't trading the Nets pick for Kanter. I would love it but its not happening. Frye and Shumpert suck, we don't need them. Keep Kanter and Willy and we have our center position for the next 5-10 yrs. Maybe Kanter loves NY and gives us a discount in resigning in the future?

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
Jmpasq
Posts: 25242
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/10/2012
Member: #4182

10/8/2017  10:50 AM
awe1028 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
awe1028 wrote:People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

The Knicks ad a top 2 offensive player that didn't play good defense but is better than Kanter. They only had 1 gm that tried to build around his strengths and weaknesses. It worked but he was let go. I agree about Kanter's offensive talents but I think he might be more of a situational player. He gets buckets or gets to the line. I also agree that the Knicks should not be rushing to make a trade until they know what they have.

Excellent point. The Knicks wasted all those prime Melo years. Melo was an absolute offensive weapon; one of the best in NBA history. Yes he had flaws but instead of putting players around him to mitigate those weakness thereby capitalizing on his strengths they burdened him with responsibilities best left to other players blunting his impact.

People lamented the things Melo couldn't do. They said he couldn't pass or play defense. Instead of focusing on the things he could not do the Knicks should have brought in players to handle those roles and let him do what he did best - score the ball.

In 2012-2013 the Knicks did just that bought in Kidd Rasheed, Tyson Chandler and they won 54 games.

The Knicks have a similar situation with Kanter though obviously he is not quite as good as Melo. Fortunately, Perry seems to have recognized this and is bringing in players to take advantage of Kanter's offensive firepower.


The Knicks would of loved to sign guys around Melo but do you remember FA's flocking to play with Melo?
Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
awe1028
Posts: 20199
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/4/2009
Member: #2780

10/8/2017  11:28 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
awe1028 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
awe1028 wrote:People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

The Knicks ad a top 2 offensive player that didn't play good defense but is better than Kanter. They only had 1 gm that tried to build around his strengths and weaknesses. It worked but he was let go. I agree about Kanter's offensive talents but I think he might be more of a situational player. He gets buckets or gets to the line. I also agree that the Knicks should not be rushing to make a trade until they know what they have.

Excellent point. The Knicks wasted all those prime Melo years. Melo was an absolute offensive weapon; one of the best in NBA history. Yes he had flaws but instead of putting players around him to mitigate those weakness thereby capitalizing on his strengths they burdened him with responsibilities best left to other players blunting his impact.

People lamented the things Melo couldn't do. They said he couldn't pass or play defense. Instead of focusing on the things he could not do the Knicks should have brought in players to handle those roles and let him do what he did best - score the ball.

In 2012-2013 the Knicks did just that bought in Kidd Rasheed, Tyson Chandler and they won 54 games.

The Knicks have a similar situation with Kanter though obviously he is not quite as good as Melo. Fortunately, Perry seems to have recognized this and is bringing in players to take advantage of Kanter's offensive firepower.


The Knicks would of loved to sign guys around Melo but do you remember FA's flocking to play with Melo?

Please. Players not coming to the Knicks had more to do with the dysfunctional toxic ownership and management than it had to do with Melo.

KD in a recent interview talked about why he had no intention of signing with the Knicks while he was free agent. Paraphrasing he said "it start at the top".

CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
10/8/2017  12:10 PM
awe1028 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
awe1028 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
awe1028 wrote:People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

The Knicks ad a top 2 offensive player that didn't play good defense but is better than Kanter. They only had 1 gm that tried to build around his strengths and weaknesses. It worked but he was let go. I agree about Kanter's offensive talents but I think he might be more of a situational player. He gets buckets or gets to the line. I also agree that the Knicks should not be rushing to make a trade until they know what they have.

Excellent point. The Knicks wasted all those prime Melo years. Melo was an absolute offensive weapon; one of the best in NBA history. Yes he had flaws but instead of putting players around him to mitigate those weakness thereby capitalizing on his strengths they burdened him with responsibilities best left to other players blunting his impact.

People lamented the things Melo couldn't do. They said he couldn't pass or play defense. Instead of focusing on the things he could not do the Knicks should have brought in players to handle those roles and let him do what he did best - score the ball.

In 2012-2013 the Knicks did just that bought in Kidd Rasheed, Tyson Chandler and they won 54 games.

The Knicks have a similar situation with Kanter though obviously he is not quite as good as Melo. Fortunately, Perry seems to have recognized this and is bringing in players to take advantage of Kanter's offensive firepower.


The Knicks would of loved to sign guys around Melo but do you remember FA's flocking to play with Melo?

Please. Players not coming to the Knicks had more to do with the dysfunctional toxic ownership and management than it had to do with Melo.

KD in a recent interview talked about why he had no intention of signing with the Knicks while he was free agent. Paraphrasing he said "it start at the top".

This. Also, there was never any cap space.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
knicks1248
Posts: 42059
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
10/8/2017  2:27 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
awe1028 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
awe1028 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
awe1028 wrote:People advocating trading Kanter are being way too premature. Kanter is a beast in the post as we all know and it is not hyperbole to say he is the best low post player in the NBA. And as the NBA drifts further and further toward small ball lineups he will become even more impossible to stop.

This means Kanter has the chance to become the focal point to everything the Knicks do on the offensive end. As he increasingly draws double teams the perimeter players will be left wide open.

The Knicks have acquired more and more shooters to take advantage of this. KP, THJr, Dougie Mcbuckets, DD, CLee, Frank and even the Beas can all fill it up from outside. And as the shooters thrive it stretches the floor making Kanter's job even easier. The offense has a chance of being a nightmare for teams to defend.

The problem of course is Kanter's defense. However the way to fix it is not to trade his offense away but to surround him with players that can defend thereby mitigating his defensive shortcomings.

The Knicks already have Frank and DD who are exhibiting strong defensive ability and KP is also showing flashes of solid defense as well.

To all this young talent the Knicks could potentially add Michael Porter or Luca Doncic. For my money I prefer MP because he has the chance to be the better defensive player but I certainly woould not quibble if Doncic is the pick

The point is what I said before it is premature to talk about trades. Give the young players a chance to develop. let's see what we have. IMHO the foundation for a bright future is on the horizon.

The Knicks ad a top 2 offensive player that didn't play good defense but is better than Kanter. They only had 1 gm that tried to build around his strengths and weaknesses. It worked but he was let go. I agree about Kanter's offensive talents but I think he might be more of a situational player. He gets buckets or gets to the line. I also agree that the Knicks should not be rushing to make a trade until they know what they have.

Excellent point. The Knicks wasted all those prime Melo years. Melo was an absolute offensive weapon; one of the best in NBA history. Yes he had flaws but instead of putting players around him to mitigate those weakness thereby capitalizing on his strengths they burdened him with responsibilities best left to other players blunting his impact.

People lamented the things Melo couldn't do. They said he couldn't pass or play defense. Instead of focusing on the things he could not do the Knicks should have brought in players to handle those roles and let him do what he did best - score the ball.

In 2012-2013 the Knicks did just that bought in Kidd Rasheed, Tyson Chandler and they won 54 games.

The Knicks have a similar situation with Kanter though obviously he is not quite as good as Melo. Fortunately, Perry seems to have recognized this and is bringing in players to take advantage of Kanter's offensive firepower.


The Knicks would of loved to sign guys around Melo but do you remember FA's flocking to play with Melo?

Please. Players not coming to the Knicks had more to do with the dysfunctional toxic ownership and management than it had to do with Melo.

KD in a recent interview talked about why he had no intention of signing with the Knicks while he was free agent. Paraphrasing he said "it start at the top".

This. Also, there was never any cap space.

Right, phil had to take whatever cap space he had and divide into 8 players with his constant reset button

ES
TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

10/8/2017  2:41 PM
awe1028 wrote:Excellent point. The Knicks wasted all those prime Melo years. Melo was an absolute offensive weapon; one of the best in NBA history. Yes he had flaws but instead of putting players around him to mitigate those weakness thereby capitalizing on his strengths they burdened him with responsibilities best left to other players blunting his impact.

People lamented the things Melo couldn't do. They said he couldn't pass or play defense. Instead of focusing on the things he could not do the Knicks should have brought in players to handle those roles and let him do what he did best - score the ball.

I've seen this type of reasoning/argument used before and IMHO, it never adds up from a "resource management perspective" because

1) The Salary Cap ( even if it is technically a "soft cap")
AND
2) The general scarcity of talent acquisition and turnover in the NBA ( 2 round draft, limited choices in free agency, limited talent pool in general because of height/athleticism requirements for NBA game speed)

To win in the NBA, you need to play DEFENSE. You need, at MINIMUM, a center who can DEFEND/PROTECT THE RIM. And hopefully not be a total offensive liability and not be a dud at the free throw line and not be injured all the time. You also need, at MINIMUM, two wings who can defend on the perimeter and space the floor with an effective three point shot.

You can get this, the BARE MINIMUM, in two ways

A) You can draft and hope to get them all or nearly all on their rookie contracts, in a cost controlled cycle where you can spend your cap elsewhere.

or

B) You can pay "market" salary rates in free agency (if you can find a FA who can do this to sign in the first place) or reup your own rookies into their 2nd or 3rd contracts at about market rate for their production or hopeful production.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a power forward AT MELOS CAP HIT who doesn't play defense because he doesn't give a damn and refuses to play actual team basketball and find the other elements you need to win and win consistently.

Theoretically its possible. But in theory, the sun won't come up tomorrow morning.

Functionally and practically, it's impossible in an actual cap environment.

People talk about Olympic Melo. You mean on a team constrained by no salary cap, full of future HOF players, with injury replacements from the All NBA/All Star caliber, going against non NBA competition, using handpicked coaches, and having the resource base of the most powerful nation state in all of human history?

If Melo wanted to win, then lose the extra weight, get in elite condition, play team ball, commit to defense and be that elite WING that the team needs. Then you need another wing and pivot to help build a core. That's far more manageable than a guy making 28-30 million who creates more questions than answers.

People, some, focused on the things Melo REFUSED TO DO BECAUSE HE JUST DID NOT GIVE A SH*T. If you are Chris Mullin and you can't stay in front of an NBA wing, it's because the dude was slow as f**k. That's one thing. When you literally CANNOT DO SOMETHING because you physically are incapable of doing it. Melo didn't do it because he simply DID NOT CARE TO PUT IN THE MAX EFFORT.

Any player, ANY LAST ONE OF THEM, who refuses to play the game the right way, put winning first and put in max effort, but puts on that beloved Knicks jersey can literally go f**k themselves. Because not doing so is really saying f**k you to each and every fan here. To the franchise, to the coaches ,to the game itself.

There is a difference between Blame and Accountability. A huge difference. Lots of people say some are too harsh on Melo because they want to BLAME HIM. Instead, I see peope who HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE for not playing in a manner, that he could, but simply didn't give a ****, to actually honor what it means to be a Knick. What it means to be a true NYer.

Anyone who believes a team could be built around Melos self inflicted apathy, has likely a poor understanding of how the market based resource management aspect of the game works. That two teams even existed where Melo might have had this opportunity is mind boggling ( The Bulls in the Rose/Noah/Deng/Gibson era and the Pistons when they drafted Darko instead of Melo) Those were his chances, rare chances and he picked the money instead when he had a choice.

TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

10/8/2017  4:03 PM
franco12 wrote:How about the Cavs trade us Frye, Shumbert and Brooklyn's first rounder for Kanter?


Use "The Mirror Test" here

( i.e. flip the situations of both teams in opposite of each other. I.E. The Knicks have LBJ, Rose, Wade, Korver, Love, etc, etc)

Would you want your beloved Knicks to trade Brooklyns pick plus filler for Enes Kanter?

Then why would the Cavs do it given the actual situation?

Think about it, LBJ is going to walk. Thomas might walk and the Cavs might just let him. So their team would consist of Tristan Thompson, Kevin Love and an opting in Enes Kanter as their core. Think about that, nearly 60 million in power forwards and ZERO RIM PROTECTION.

Then here's another problem right now, the Cavs would take in a NON DEFENDER who CANNOT PROTECT THE RIM and is a LATE GAME LIABILITY TO THE POINT WHERE HE HAS TO BE BENCHED and give up an expiring Stretch 5 who can occasionally defend the rim AND space the floor and give up one of their better wing defenders to do it.

Here's another problem. Love is better defensively than he was before, but he's still subpar. You can't roll Kanter and Love on the floor at the same time. So you are taking in a player who only COMPOUNDS the problems you do have and causes roster fit problems for the strengths of a player already there.

And this of course brings up the most obvious point. If the Cavs would be willing to give up the Brooklyn pick for Kanter and Kanter was really worth that much, why didn't OKC just trade Kanter to them directly in the first place for the pick? Someone will say, because they needed Melo, no they took Melo and dumped a bad contract to get him.

This might not be sinking in here guys, but Enes Kanter right now IS A BAD CONTRACT. It's why no one wanted him until he was functional to move in basically a trade where he's salary filler, just one with a shorter contract than Ryan Anderson.

The trade you propose if FANTASTIC for the Knicks, in that they get everything that helps them, and they horsef**k the Cavs. That's not how real NBA trades usually operate.

Why a trade is fantastic for the Knicks is not enough. One has to look at why the other team, long term and short term and cap wise, would want to make the deal. The same reason the Cavs won't want Kanter is also the same reason no one else wants him either, which is WHY HE WAS AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE to be salary filler in a Melo dump trade.

franco12
Posts: 33184
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
10/8/2017  5:27 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
franco12 wrote:How about the Cavs trade us Frye, Shumbert and Brooklyn's first rounder for Kanter?


Use "The Mirror Test" here

( i.e. flip the situations of both teams in opposite of each other. I.E. The Knicks have LBJ, Rose, Wade, Korver, Love, etc, etc)

Would you want your beloved Knicks to trade Brooklyns pick plus filler for Enes Kanter?

Then why would the Cavs do it given the actual situation?

Think about it, LBJ is going to walk. Thomas might walk and the Cavs might just let him. So their team would consist of Tristan Thompson, Kevin Love and an opting in Enes Kanter as their core. Think about that, nearly 60 million in power forwards and ZERO RIM PROTECTION.

Then here's another problem right now, the Cavs would take in a NON DEFENDER who CANNOT PROTECT THE RIM and is a LATE GAME LIABILITY TO THE POINT WHERE HE HAS TO BE BENCHED and give up an expiring Stretch 5 who can occasionally defend the rim AND space the floor and give up one of their better wing defenders to do it.

Here's another problem. Love is better defensively than he was before, but he's still subpar. You can't roll Kanter and Love on the floor at the same time. So you are taking in a player who only COMPOUNDS the problems you do have and causes roster fit problems for the strengths of a player already there.

And this of course brings up the most obvious point. If the Cavs would be willing to give up the Brooklyn pick for Kanter and Kanter was really worth that much, why didn't OKC just trade Kanter to them directly in the first place for the pick? Someone will say, because they needed Melo, no they took Melo and dumped a bad contract to get him.

This might not be sinking in here guys, but Enes Kanter right now IS A BAD CONTRACT. It's why no one wanted him until he was functional to move in basically a trade where he's salary filler, just one with a shorter contract than Ryan Anderson.

The trade you propose if FANTASTIC for the Knicks, in that they get everything that helps them, and they horsef**k the Cavs. That's not how real NBA trades usually operate.

Why a trade is fantastic for the Knicks is not enough. One has to look at why the other team, long term and short term and cap wise, would want to make the deal. The same reason the Cavs won't want Kanter is also the same reason no one else wants him either, which is WHY HE WAS AVAILABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE to be salary filler in a Melo dump trade.

Mirror test- if Kanter were the missing piece and trading for him helps me win a championship, yes. I trade the pick.

Look- everything is timing. Wait until the deadline, and there may be some team that is right there in contention with a situation where Kanter is a desired piece, especially if he performs with us. Young, reasonable contract - a highly desirable asset.

So are Willy and KP - I'm not trading them.

And if I could trade Noah, I would, but no team is taking him.

TripleThreat
Posts: 23106
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

10/8/2017  9:22 PM
franco12 wrote:Mirror test- if Kanter were the missing piece and trading for him helps me win a championship, yes. I trade the pick.

Look- everything is timing. Wait until the deadline, and there may be some team that is right there in contention with a situation where Kanter is a desired piece, especially if he performs with us. Young, reasonable contract - a highly desirable asset.

How does Kanter help the Cavs win a championship? (i.e. help them beat the Warriors)

Love and Tristan Thompson got roasted by the Warriors in the last finals, both were horrible in matchups against the Golden State squad. Both are better defenders than Kanter. Think about how far down the road of crappy defense you have to get to call Kevin Love a better defender to anyone.

Kanter DOES NOT PROTECT THE RIM.

HE. DOES. NOT. PROTECT. THE. RIM.

HE

DOES

NOT

PROTECT

THE

RIM

Kevin Love can space the floor and hit the three ball, but he cannot defend the rim

Tristan Thompson is an overpaid energy guy who cannot space the floor with long range shooting and can only occasionally defend the rim.

Both are power forwards miscast at times at center because the Cavs have nothing else.

You are proposing a team that could NOT DEFEND the Warriors last year ( and to be fair, who can...) should trade away it's ONLY CENTER WHO CAN ACTUALLY PLAY CENTER, DEFEND THE RIM AND SPACE THE FLOOR and one it's better wing defenders ( so you don't get stuck with Rose, Wade, Korver and Calderon trying to stop Klay Thompson) to take in one of the worst pivot defenders in the entire league.

Contending teams are usually cap locked or close to it. How do said hypothetical team take in a nearly 20 million AAV player without gutting players who can actually help them? Why would they want a player they have to bench in the 4th quarter because offenses will target him specifically.

We are not just talking the entire league, we are also talking about the Warriors. They would destroy Kanter in ways no one could imagine. Kanter on the floor would mean Love would need to be off of it, and then that clogs the floor spacing ( Since Kanter can't hit a three ball) and they still get NO RIM PROTECTION.

Why would a team want a player who can't defend the rim to add to guys they already have that can't defend the rim? When defense is going to be so critical in the playoffs?

Would a team want Kanter in a trade? Yes, but ONLY if they could dump a bad contract equaling his out that doesn't mean a longer timeline than his commitment. That's it guys. A bad contract for a bad contract is a CHALLENGE TRADE. Gilbert Arenas for Rashard Lewis was a classic challenge trade. My overpaid problem for your overpaid problem, nothing to lose since the money is spent anyway.

IF, and it's a huge IF, a team had two players who were catastrophically injured and the salaries matched Kanters, and they had two more years each, then MAYBE, a team would want Kanter. Because he'd be more useful than 2 injured guys.

Kanter is not a rookie, he's not on his rookie contract. He's young-ish still, but what you see is likely all you will get. This entire, he might still develop into X or Y is not practical to how players actually develop in the NBA.

He's a bad contract. He's useful, but not at his AAV and contract situation now. NO team wants him. Which is why he was available in the first place.

Your stance seems to be "Well, you never know" No dude, OKC tried to trade this dude for a long time. Everyone except you seems to know. This dude is a bad contract and his contract was part of the price to get Melo off this roster.

Nothing you say actually applies to actual NBA market conditions. I'm not trying to pick on you, but it just does not. I'm giving multiple cogent reasons why no one wants Kanter, your only reasoning is because you said so. The list of reasons I'm giving is how actual NBA GMs are going to look at the situation. How it actually applies to the current market in place.

PresIke
Posts: 27640
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/26/2001
Member: #33
USA
10/8/2017  10:14 PM
My sense is we should play a high octane offense with his skill set. Problem is we will give up just as much.

Too similar to KP in certain ways (I think KP is a better defender btw).

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Kanter Top 10

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy