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GustavBahler
Posts: 41138 Alba Posts: 15 Joined: 7/12/2010 Member: #3186 |
9/9/2017 11:38 AM LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017 11:47 AM
knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh Guessing that Hornacek and Rambis will be history if they dont show that they're taking the team in the right direction (not necessarily the playoffs) and the players have bought in. Rambis might be gone first(or demoted)if things go south, as a shot across the bow. Don't believe Perry and Mills want to hitch their wagon to Hornacek amd Rambis, if they don't deliver in some fashion next season. |
nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
9/9/2017 11:38 AM
knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh We will learn a LOT more about this coaching staff from here on. For one thing the combination of DRose and Jennings turned out to be a huge part of the resistance along with Melo! Minus some of them and replacing them with more compliant players WILL make a difference! Not to mention the effort level and buy in should help improve execution a great deal on both ends The Front Office has a good deal of new blood. The fact that Mills may be continuing SOME aspects of what Phil was doing doesn't mean there's no change. Clearly Mills has his own ideas which have already been demonstrated. Perry and his people will bring different ideas and approach as well. If you stop being convinced things won't improve you might be able to see the opportunities for positive change that exist. There are no guarantees but from what I see there's already been some positive changes. The focus is on not just this season but the future. |
Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/9/2017 11:43 AM
nixluva wrote:The focus is on ... the future. Fixed. |
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/25/2003 Member: #452 USA |
9/9/2017 12:46 PM
nixluva wrote:I think things were pretty messy last year. I am not sure how you could add more compliant players then a group that consisted of 8 undrafted players, and only 5 guys that were drafted in the first round. The roster was made up of guys just trying to stay in the league. It seemed like Jax was thinking about bringing Rose back,knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh According to several local media sources, Phil Jackson was greatly impressed with Derrick Rose’s testimony in his exit interview. Plus, Rose has publicly stated that he sincerely wants to return to New York.https://www.fanragsports.com/knicks/rosen-knicks-re-sign-derrick-rose/ I think moving on from Rose was the right move. I also don't think his presence helped KP but only one guy skipped his exit meeting and now we know that at least in part it was because of issues with the coach. I don't think all was fixed with Rose and Jax leaving. I am concerned about Jeff/Rambis after everything that happened last year. Woj reported that players hate Rambis. Rosen said on a podcast that Minny ruined Rambis and that he isn't able to relate to players. Woj seems to enjoy going after Phil but Rosen is Phil's guy. I wish things were cleaned up a bit more (i.e. Melo gone, Rambis gone and possibly Jeff gone). The issues between KP and Jeff were significant. Aside from the undrafted guys, I am not sure what guys on the roster last year were Jeff guys. In my opinion major problems were only partially addressed. I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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Swishfm3
Posts: 23224 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 3/28/2003 Member: #392 |
9/9/2017 2:44 PM
Knickoftime wrote:Knixkik wrote:While landing a once in generation talent like a Lebron or Anthony Davis is great, it doesn't happen that often, and you can also find the next Giannis, Kawhi, etc later in the first round, Jimmy Butler in the late first, or Jokic in the 2nd round. Finding a star outside of the top 10 happens nearly every year. It is a crapshoot...the evidence is there to prove it. |
Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/9/2017 3:00 PM
Swishfm3 wrote:Knickoftime wrote:Knixkik wrote:While landing a once in generation talent like a Lebron or Anthony Davis is great, it doesn't happen that often, and you can also find the next Giannis, Kawhi, etc later in the first round, Jimmy Butler in the late first, or Jokic in the 2nd round. Finding a star outside of the top 10 happens nearly every year. Your odds are VASTLY improved the higher the pick. Picking 20 is not nearly the same as picking 10 which is not nearly the same as picking 5. If you have evidence to dispute that, show it. This is both the forum and the context in which to show, not just say. |
HofstraBBall
Posts: 27186 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 11/21/2015 Member: #6192 |
9/9/2017 6:01 PM LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017 6:25 PM
Knickoftime wrote:Swishfm3 wrote:Knickoftime wrote:Knixkik wrote:While landing a once in generation talent like a Lebron or Anthony Davis is great, it doesn't happen that often, and you can also find the next Giannis, Kawhi, etc later in the first round, Jimmy Butler in the late first, or Jokic in the 2nd round. Finding a star outside of the top 10 happens nearly every year. 2004 5-Devin Harris 10-Luke Jackson 20-Jameer Nelson Crap shoot? 'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
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awe1028
Posts: 20199 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/4/2009 Member: #2780 |
9/9/2017 7:52 PM LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017 8:03 PM
I am quite surprised that some members are debating the idea the idea that the higher a team picks in the draft the greater the chance of obtaining a great player. For me it seems quite obvious. Therefore I decided to look at the best players in the NBA and list the pick at which each was selected. This is not a complex or deep analysis the data is simple and straightforward. And clearly the players chosen are subjective. However I believe the list fairly accurately represents a list of players who most would consider to be among the best in the NBA.
Center Power Forward Small Forward Shooting Guard Point Guard Picks 1: 13 What do the numbers tell us (As mentioned above the the data is simple and straightforward) |
HofstraBBall
Posts: 27186 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 11/21/2015 Member: #6192 |
9/9/2017 9:38 PM LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017 9:48 PM
awe1028 wrote:I am quite surprised that some members are debating the idea the idea that the higher a team picks in the draft the greater the chance of obtaining a great player. For me it seems quite obvious. Therefore I decided to look at the best players in the NBA and list the pick at which each was selected. This is not a complex or deep analysis the data is simple and straightforward. And clearly the players chosen are subjective. However I believe the list fairly accurately represents a list of players who most would consider to be among the best in the NBA. Who is arguing that the number 1,2 or 3 pick is a bad thing? Just that the draft is not a sure thing and therefore should not be a reason to intentionally tank a season. And btw, can you list all the top 5 picks that turned out to be duds? Also, saying the draft is a crap shoot does not imply it is not a neccesary part of building a team. Just that it is not a guarantee a chip. Even if you get a high pick. 'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
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awe1028
Posts: 20199 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/4/2009 Member: #2780 |
9/9/2017 10:42 PM LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017 10:45 PM
HofstraBBall wrote: Right back at you: who is arguing the draft is a guarantee? Instead,the argument is that having a high pick increases significantly the chances of acquiring a game changing talent. The question is how high does the pick have to be. The cut off number seems to be right about pick 5/pick 6. Therefore the Knicks should be shooting for no worse than # 5 and of course even higher. Contrast that with the counter argument made by some which suggests building through the draft is akin to playing the powerball. Ludicrous. |
nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
9/10/2017 3:03 AM
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I think things were pretty messy last year. I am not sure how you could add more compliant players then a group that consisted of 8 undrafted players, and only 5 guys that were drafted in the first round. The roster was made up of guys just trying to stay in the league. It seemed like Jax was thinking about bringing Rose back,knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh The ball handlers to start were DRose and Jennings and they along with Melo mounted a MUTINY!!! How the F is that compliant? Yeah we can do a heck of a lot better in terms of players BUYING IN and executing what the coaches want. We can get better Effort Level too! IMO all the other stuff you bring up is being overstated. Part of KP's deal was wanting to do what he's done this summer. The National Team and Videos! Building his brand and profile as a national hero. I don't expect KP will have any major issues with the coaches. I don't think any of this stuff that's been reported is as serious or unresolvable as you're trying to make it seem. |
Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/10/2017 11:47 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:awe1028 wrote:I am quite surprised that some members are debating the idea the idea that the higher a team picks in the draft the greater the chance of obtaining a great player. For me it seems quite obvious. Therefore I decided to look at the best players in the NBA and list the pick at which each was selected. This is not a complex or deep analysis the data is simple and straightforward. And clearly the players chosen are subjective. However I believe the list fairly accurately represents a list of players who most would consider to be among the best in the NBA. As always, this is professional sports, no "guarantees" is the default. And once again, nobody is actually advocating losing games on purpose. Moving on from Melo, the center of gravity of a team that has not made the postseason in four years, is not tanking. |
Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/10/2017 12:15 PM
What a weird turn this conversation has taken.
That the higher you pick in the NBA draft, the demonstratively better your chances of getting an impact player is has already been litigated and ruled on. It is an objective fact. As it applies to the Knicks, this has never been a choice between legitimately competing or losing as many games as possible to get a top pick. That's a false pretense. This is a choice between the likely non-man's land of 31-37 wins - the new normal with Melo - and seeing what happens without him. Good or bad, inevitable life without him will be a transition/adjustment. If that happens in 2017-18, two things may occur: 1.) The Knick young core may perform better than expected without him and get a whole year under the belt transitioning, in which case, great. or 2.) The inevitable transition may be difficult and they may qualify for a higher (better) lottery pick than they likely would've qualified for with Melo. In which case, great. |
awe1028
Posts: 20199 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/4/2009 Member: #2780 |
9/10/2017 12:29 PM LAST EDITED: 9/10/2017 12:54 PM
Knickoftime wrote:HofstraBBall wrote: Precisely. Exactly who is advocating losing on purpose or making any guarantees. It is possible to lose despite trying to win, SMH. The Nets lost a lot of games last season. Were they trying to lose on purpose? The Lakers, Phoenix also lost a lot of games. Were they trying to lose on purpose? What is being suggested is that the Knicks become like the Nets or LA or Phoenix lose a lot of games so they can pick at the very highest levels of the draft. The Knicks are one star piece away from having a dominant young core. The numbers above clearly demonstrate picking at the highest levels of the draft significantly increases a team's chance of acquiring said star player. |
Welpee
Posts: 23162 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/22/2016 Member: #6239 |
9/10/2017 12:45 PM
awe1028 wrote:I am quite surprised that some members are debating the idea the idea that the higher a team picks in the draft the greater the chance of obtaining a great player. For me it seems quite obvious. Therefore I decided to look at the best players in the NBA and list the pick at which each was selected. This is not a complex or deep analysis the data is simple and straightforward. And clearly the players chosen are subjective. However I believe the list fairly accurately represents a list of players who most would consider to be among the best in the NBA. Conclusion to the wrong question. Nobody questioned whether the best players a generally picked higher. The question is whether tanking and betting on two things happening simultaneously is the best way to build a team: 1) you lose enough to have highest chance with the ping pong balls yielding the top pick and 2) betting that the particular draft that you have the #1 pick yields an all-time franchise building player. Suppose you tanked in 2000 and got the #1 pick and had to choose between Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles, Mike Miller or Marcus Fizer? If tanking is a team's strategy you're basically playing the lotto to build your team. |
HofstraBBall
Posts: 27186 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 11/21/2015 Member: #6192 |
9/10/2017 1:36 PM
Knickoftime wrote:What a weird turn this conversation has taken. You brought up the draft not being a crap shoot? Specifically 5 vs 10 vs 20 . Most agree that top 3 picks are the true game changers.. Knicks needing to move on from Melo is not being argued by anyone on here except maybe 2 posters. So why keep presenting the same case? 'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
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CrushAlot
Posts: 59764 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 7/25/2003 Member: #452 USA |
9/10/2017 1:45 PM
nixluva wrote:I wish it was as simple as, just take care of the three villains and everything will be fixed. Melo is coming back. KP and Jeff did have issues and KP did skip his exit meeting and not respond to Jeff's texts earlier in the summer. Rambis isn't liked by the players. The Knicks finally have some roster/coaching continuity heading into a season where they probably would have been better off moving on from some of their players and coaches.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I think things were pretty messy last year. I am not sure how you could add more compliant players then a group that consisted of 8 undrafted players, and only 5 guys that were drafted in the first round. The roster was made up of guys just trying to stay in the league. It seemed like Jax was thinking about bringing Rose back,knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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nixluva
Posts: 56258 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 10/5/2004 Member: #758 USA |
9/10/2017 3:12 PM
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I wish it was as simple as, just take care of the three villains and everything will be fixed. Melo is coming back. KP and Jeff did have issues and KP did skip his exit meeting and not respond to Jeff's texts earlier in the summer. Rambis isn't liked by the players. The Knicks finally have some roster/coaching continuity heading into a season where they probably would have been better off moving on from some of their players and coaches.CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:I think things were pretty messy last year. I am not sure how you could add more compliant players then a group that consisted of 8 undrafted players, and only 5 guys that were drafted in the first round. The roster was made up of guys just trying to stay in the league. It seemed like Jax was thinking about bringing Rose back,knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh The only time KP showed any problems on the court came after his Achilles injury. By the end of the year KP was on an upswing until tweaking his back in Boston. I don't think or expect KP to come to camp with any lingering issues that would stop him from performing at his best. You're stuck on this meanwhile the players and coaches are busy preparing for the new season. Jeff and KP can work on their communication all Camp and Preseason. IMO you're making a bit too much of this issue. No doubt KP felt some kinda way but I don't think it's something irreparable. |