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Knickoftime
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9/9/2017  10:12 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Just don't Thu k it's smart to release/buy him out.

Let's forget about the issue of the perception of him for second. What's not tie this into the issue of people who exaggerate his shortcomings or exaggerate his worth.

You agree it's best the Knicks move on. Why does a return or lack thereof turn that completely 180 degrees?

He has an NTC and a trade kicker. That ship has sailed.

Why is this team better in 2019-20 for having kept him, independent of the reasons why?

Think your smart enough to answer that. But okay....Getting nothing in return for a player of Melo's caliber is a failure by that franchise/GM. Don't see how you can continue to argue that?

I'm not smart enough to answer that and I continue to argue if because you didn't answer my question. I asked how is the team better? That it's a failure of the front office doesn't that answer question.

The bulk of the failure has already occurred and can't be undone - giving him the NTC and the trade kicker. What limited options Perry has because of that isn't really on Perry. He is at the mercy of Melo.

That rationale strikes me as similar to holding on to a losing stock for too long. Selling a stock at a loss is a mental hurdle some people have difficulty with, so they hold it so they can sell it for a push or a small gain to feel like they didn't make a bad investment. But if you can sell it for a loss and reinvest in something that outperforms what you're holding in that same time span, that's a smarter strategy - cutting your losses can lead to a gain.

You seem to agree that it's best from a team standpoint if they move on, but you're willing to take that on-court/locker room loss on the promise of recouping some of that investment.

Given the NTC, kicker and his $26m salary, I don't share your confidence he's ultimately going to acquiesce AND give a team incentive to offer something of quality, though I agree the Knicks should wait until the regular season before considering the nuclear option.

I am not sure. If you waive him you owe him 53 mil fr 2 years. I don't think you can buy him out for much less. The guy was team captain lat year, held the off season workouts and was voted best teammate by his peers.

And won 31 games.

Not saying he's a cancer, it just isn't working. Kp, hernamgomez, hardaway, etc, hopefully have significant upside and in future years hopefully will be part of a competitive team.

There's just no long playoff run left in melo's time here and probably/maybe not even a postseason appearance.

Melo is s terrific NBA player, it's just time to move on.


There is a formula that is very successful with Melo. Good guard play and good shooters on the wing. When you emphasize a system that minimizes point guard play and doesn't value the three, I think you subtract 5-10 wins minimally from a team with Melo as its best player. Phil did that for the last years of Melo's prime.

Perhaps, but still not the point. Knicks can't get those three years back. They screwed up but can't play the next two seasons as proof of concept. Add 5-10 to 31 and what's 36-41 doing for anyone?

His window as a Knicks is just closed. The guys under 25 hopefully have a window years down the line.

Just a numbers game.

AUTOADVERT
knicks1248
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9/9/2017  10:51 AM
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.

The same guy who had everything to do with this roster is still here with even more power, how exactly is that a new FO. Is that because we added perry.

I get it, you're a knick fan, and you're being optimistic.

Trust me when i say, I hope I'm so wrong about mills, but i seriously doubt it. One thing Im very confident about, is that the coaching staff is not right for the direction of this team.

To me signing THJ before you signed a play making veteran pg, was like buying the carriage and having to settle for a pony to pull it because you had no more money for a horse. Thats ass backwards

Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Walt Frazier and breen kept reminding us every game that KP was leading the league in fouls right up until he got injured.

The question you keep avoiding is weather or not you feel we have the best coaching staff and front office in place to build, teach, develop, and lead this franchise to the next level in 2 to 3 yrs

I don't know how you equate a new front office as being in place when only one person has been replace.
If Griffin got the job, you and i both know majority of the front office would have followed Phill or been demoted.
To me, that would have been classified as change. If mills is continuing from where phill left off (like some you have claimed)what's NEW?

Perry is slight breath of fresh air, but we'll see how much impact he has in the coming days.

ES
GustavBahler
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9/9/2017  11:38 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017  11:47 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.

The same guy who had everything to do with this roster is still here with even more power, how exactly is that a new FO. Is that because we added perry.

I get it, you're a knick fan, and you're being optimistic.

Trust me when i say, I hope I'm so wrong about mills, but i seriously doubt it. One thing Im very confident about, is that the coaching staff is not right for the direction of this team.

To me signing THJ before you signed a play making veteran pg, was like buying the carriage and having to settle for a pony to pull it because you had no more money for a horse. Thats ass backwards

Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Walt Frazier and breen kept reminding us every game that KP was leading the league in fouls right up until he got injured.

The question you keep avoiding is weather or not you feel we have the best coaching staff and front office in place to build, teach, develop, and lead this franchise to the next level in 2 to 3 yrs

I don't know how you equate a new front office as being in place when only one person has been replace.
If Griffin got the job, you and i both know majority of the front office would have followed Phill or been demoted.
To me, that would have been classified as change. If mills is continuing from where phill left off (like some you have claimed)what's NEW?

Perry is slight breath of fresh air, but we'll see how much impact he has in the coming days.

Guessing that Hornacek and Rambis will be history if they dont show that they're taking the team in the right direction (not necessarily the playoffs) and the players have bought in. Rambis might be gone first(or demoted)if things go south, as a shot across the bow.

Don't believe Perry and Mills want to hitch their wagon to Hornacek amd Rambis, if they don't deliver in some fashion next season.

nixluva
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9/9/2017  11:38 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.

The same guy who had everything to do with this roster is still here with even more power, how exactly is that a new FO. Is that because we added perry.

I get it, you're a knick fan, and you're being optimistic.

Trust me when i say, I hope I'm so wrong about mills, but i seriously doubt it. One thing Im very confident about, is that the coaching staff is not right for the direction of this team.

To me signing THJ before you signed a play making veteran pg, was like buying the carriage and having to settle for a pony to pull it because you had no more money for a horse. Thats ass backwards

Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Walt Frazier and breen kept reminding us every game that KP was leading the league in fouls right up until he got injured.

The question you keep avoiding is weather or not you feel we have the best coaching staff and front office in place to build, teach, develop, and lead this franchise to the next level in 2 to 3 yrs

I don't know how you equate a new front office as being in place when only one person has been replace.
If Griffin got the job, you and i both know majority of the front office would have followed Phill or been demoted.
To me, that would have been classified as change. If mills is continuing from where phill left off (like some you have claimed)what's NEW?

Perry is slight breath of fresh air, but we'll see how much impact he has in the coming days.

We will learn a LOT more about this coaching staff from here on. For one thing the combination of DRose and Jennings turned out to be a huge part of the resistance along with Melo! Minus some of them and replacing them with more compliant players WILL make a difference! Not to mention the effort level and buy in should help improve execution a great deal on both ends

The Front Office has a good deal of new blood. The fact that Mills may be continuing SOME aspects of what Phil was doing doesn't mean there's no change. Clearly Mills has his own ideas which have already been demonstrated. Perry and his people will bring different ideas and approach as well.

If you stop being convinced things won't improve you might be able to see the opportunities for positive change that exist. There are no guarantees but from what I see there's already been some positive changes. The focus is on not just this season but the future.

Knickoftime
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9/9/2017  11:43 AM
nixluva wrote:The focus is on ... the future.

Fixed.

CrushAlot
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9/9/2017  12:46 PM
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.

The same guy who had everything to do with this roster is still here with even more power, how exactly is that a new FO. Is that because we added perry.

I get it, you're a knick fan, and you're being optimistic.

Trust me when i say, I hope I'm so wrong about mills, but i seriously doubt it. One thing Im very confident about, is that the coaching staff is not right for the direction of this team.

To me signing THJ before you signed a play making veteran pg, was like buying the carriage and having to settle for a pony to pull it because you had no more money for a horse. Thats ass backwards

Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Walt Frazier and breen kept reminding us every game that KP was leading the league in fouls right up until he got injured.

The question you keep avoiding is weather or not you feel we have the best coaching staff and front office in place to build, teach, develop, and lead this franchise to the next level in 2 to 3 yrs

I don't know how you equate a new front office as being in place when only one person has been replace.
If Griffin got the job, you and i both know majority of the front office would have followed Phill or been demoted.
To me, that would have been classified as change. If mills is continuing from where phill left off (like some you have claimed)what's NEW?

Perry is slight breath of fresh air, but we'll see how much impact he has in the coming days.

We will learn a LOT more about this coaching staff from here on. For one thing the combination of DRose and Jennings turned out to be a huge part of the resistance along with Melo! Minus some of them and replacing them with more compliant players WILL make a difference! Not to mention the effort level and buy in should help improve execution a great deal on both ends

The Front Office has a good deal of new blood. The fact that Mills may be continuing SOME aspects of what Phil was doing doesn't mean there's no change. Clearly Mills has his own ideas which have already been demonstrated. Perry and his people will bring different ideas and approach as well.

If you stop being convinced things won't improve you might be able to see the opportunities for positive change that exist. There are no guarantees but from what I see there's already been some positive changes. The focus is on not just this season but the future.

I think things were pretty messy last year. I am not sure how you could add more compliant players then a group that consisted of 8 undrafted players, and only 5 guys that were drafted in the first round. The roster was made up of guys just trying to stay in the league. It seemed like Jax was thinking about bringing Rose back,
According to several local media sources, Phil Jackson was greatly impressed with Derrick Rose’s testimony in his exit interview. Plus, Rose has publicly stated that he sincerely wants to return to New York.
https://www.fanragsports.com/knicks/rosen-knicks-re-sign-derrick-rose/
I think moving on from Rose was the right move. I also don't think his presence helped KP but only one guy skipped his exit meeting and now we know that at least in part it was because of issues with the coach. I don't think all was fixed with Rose and Jax leaving. I am concerned about Jeff/Rambis after everything that happened last year. Woj reported that players hate Rambis. Rosen said on a podcast that Minny ruined Rambis and that he isn't able to relate to players. Woj seems to enjoy going after Phil but Rosen is Phil's guy. I wish things were cleaned up a bit more (i.e. Melo gone, Rambis gone and possibly Jeff gone). The issues between KP and Jeff were significant. Aside from the undrafted guys, I am not sure what guys on the roster last year were Jeff guys. In my opinion major problems were only partially addressed.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
Swishfm3
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9/9/2017  2:44 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
Knixkik wrote:While landing a once in generation talent like a Lebron or Anthony Davis is great, it doesn't happen that often, and you can also find the next Giannis, Kawhi, etc later in the first round, Jimmy Butler in the late first, or Jokic in the 2nd round. Finding a star outside of the top 10 happens nearly every year.

All of these things are true by themselves, but you're still misrepresenting the facts.

This seems to suggest the draft is a total crapshoot.

The facts are your chances of getting a star is GREATLY enhanced the higher you select.

That's just math.

Just because there are stars that have been picked later does not change this math.

It is a crapshoot...the evidence is there to prove it.

Knickoftime
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9/9/2017  3:00 PM
Swishfm3 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Knixkik wrote:While landing a once in generation talent like a Lebron or Anthony Davis is great, it doesn't happen that often, and you can also find the next Giannis, Kawhi, etc later in the first round, Jimmy Butler in the late first, or Jokic in the 2nd round. Finding a star outside of the top 10 happens nearly every year.

All of these things are true by themselves, but you're still misrepresenting the facts.

This seems to suggest the draft is a total crapshoot.

The facts are your chances of getting a star is GREATLY enhanced the higher you select.

That's just math.

Just because there are stars that have been picked later does not change this math.

It is a crapshoot...the evidence is there to prove it.

Your odds are VASTLY improved the higher the pick.

Picking 20 is not nearly the same as picking 10 which is not nearly the same as picking 5.

If you have evidence to dispute that, show it.

This is both the forum and the context in which to show, not just say.

HofstraBBall
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9/9/2017  6:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017  6:25 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Knixkik wrote:While landing a once in generation talent like a Lebron or Anthony Davis is great, it doesn't happen that often, and you can also find the next Giannis, Kawhi, etc later in the first round, Jimmy Butler in the late first, or Jokic in the 2nd round. Finding a star outside of the top 10 happens nearly every year.

All of these things are true by themselves, but you're still misrepresenting the facts.

This seems to suggest the draft is a total crapshoot.

The facts are your chances of getting a star is GREATLY enhanced the higher you select.

That's just math.

Just because there are stars that have been picked later does not change this math.

It is a crapshoot...the evidence is there to prove it.

Your odds are VASTLY improved the higher the pick.

Picking 20 is not nearly the same as picking 10 which is not nearly the same as picking 5.

If you have evidence to dispute that, show it.

This is both the forum and the context in which to show, not just say.

2004 5-Devin Harris 10-Luke Jackson 20-Jameer Nelson
2005 5-Raymond Felton 10-Andrew Bynum 20-Juias Hodge
2006 5-Sheldon Williams 10-Mouhamed Sene 20-Renaldo Balkman
2007 5-Jeff Green 10-Spencer Hawes 20-Jason Smith
2008 5-Kevin Love 10-Brook Lopez 20-Alexis Ajenca
2009 5-Ricky Rubio 10-Brandon Jennings 20-Eric Maynor
2010 5-Demarcus Cousin 10-Paul George 20-James Anderson

Crap shoot?

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
awe1028
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9/9/2017  7:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017  8:03 PM
I am quite surprised that some members are debating the idea the idea that the higher a team picks in the draft the greater the chance of obtaining a great player. For me it seems quite obvious. Therefore I decided to look at the best players in the NBA and list the pick at which each was selected. This is not a complex or deep analysis the data is simple and straightforward. And clearly the players chosen are subjective. However I believe the list fairly accurately represents a list of players who most would consider to be among the best in the NBA.

Center
Wilt Chamberlain #1 1959 #1
Bill Russell #3 1956 #3
Kareem 1969 #1
Hakeem 1984 #1
Patrick 1985 #1
Shaq 1992 #1
Admiral 1987 #1

Power Forward
Tim Duncan 1999 #1
Charles Barkley 1984 #5
Karl Malone 1985 #13
Dirk Nowitzki 1996 # 6
Kevin Garnett 1995 #5
Kevin Mchale 1980 # 6
Blake Griffin #1

Small Forward
Lebron James 2003 #1
Larry Bird 1978 #6
Dr. J 1972 # 12
Kevin Durant 2007 #2
Kawhi Leonard 2011 # 15
Scottie Pippen 1987 #5
Dominique Wilkins 1982 # 3
Carmelo Anthony 2003 #3

Shooting Guard
Michael Jordan 1984 #3
Kobe Bryant 1996 #13
Oscar Robertson 1960 #1
Jerry West 1960 #2
Dwayne Wade 2003 #5
Reggie Miller 1987 #11
Tracy Mcgrady 1997 #9
Vince Carter 1998 # 5

Point Guard
Magic Johnson 1970 #1
Steve Nash 1996 #15
Isiah Thomas 1981 #2
Jason Kidd 1994 #2
John Stockton 1984 # 16
Allen Iverson #1 1996 #1
Steph Curry 2009 #7
Russell Westbrook 2008 #4
James Harden 2009 #3
Kyrie Irving 2011 #1

Picks 1: 13
Picks 2 : 4
Picks 3: 5
Picks 4: 1
Picks 5: 5
Picks 6: 4
Picks 7: 1
Picks 8: 0
Picks 9: 1
Picks 10: 0
Picks 11: 1
Picks 12: 1
Picks 13: 1
Picks 14: 0
Picks 15: 2
Picks 16: 1
Total Players: 40

What do the numbers tell us (As mentioned above the the data is simple and straightforward)
1. Unsurprisingly, the # 1 pick gave teams the greatest chance to acquire a great player (32.5%)
2. The cutoff point is the # 6 pick 80% of the best players were chosen at that point or higher
3. Looking at the top 10 the percentage is 85%
4. in the lottery(ie top 14)(92.5%)
5. CONCLUSION: Simple the higher the pick...

HofstraBBall
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9/9/2017  9:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017  9:48 PM
awe1028 wrote:I am quite surprised that some members are debating the idea the idea that the higher a team picks in the draft the greater the chance of obtaining a great player. For me it seems quite obvious. Therefore I decided to look at the best players in the NBA and list the pick at which each was selected. This is not a complex or deep analysis the data is simple and straightforward. And clearly the players chosen are subjective. However I believe the list fairly accurately represents a list of players who most would consider to be among the best in the NBA.

Center
Wilt Chamberlain #1 1959 #1
Bill Russell #3 1956 #3
Kareem 1969 #1
Hakeem 1984 #1
Patrick 1985 #1
Shaq 1992 #1
Admiral 1987 #1

Power Forward
Tim Duncan 1999 #1
Charles Barkley 1984 #5
Karl Malone 1985 #13
Dirk Nowitzki 1996 # 6
Kevin Garnett 1995 #5
Kevin Mchale 1980 # 6
Blake Griffin #1

Small Forward
Lebron James 2003 #1
Larry Bird 1978 #6
Dr. J 1972 # 12
Kevin Durant 2007 #2
Kawhi Leonard 2011 # 15
Scottie Pippen 1987 #5
Dominique Wilkins 1982 # 3
Carmelo Anthony 2003 #3

Shooting Guard
Michael Jordan 1984 #3
Kobe Bryant 1996 #13
Oscar Robertson 1960 #1
Jerry West 1960 #2
Dwayne Wade 2003 #5
Reggie Miller 1987 #11
Tracy Mcgrady 1997 #9
Vince Carter 1998 # 5

Point Guard
Magic Johnson 1970 #1
Steve Nash 1996 #15
Isiah Thomas 1981 #2
Jason Kidd 1994 #2
John Stockton 1984 # 16
Allen Iverson #1 1996 #1
Steph Curry 2009 #7
Russell Westbrook 2008 #4
James Harden 2009 #3
Kyrie Irving 2011 #1

Picks 1: 13
Picks 2 : 4
Picks 3: 5
Picks 4: 1
Picks 5: 5
Picks 6: 4
Picks 7: 1
Picks 8: 0
Picks 9: 1
Picks 10: 0
Picks 11: 1
Picks 12: 1
Picks 13: 1
Picks 14: 0
Picks 15: 2
Picks 16: 1
Total Players: 40

What do the numbers tell us (As mentioned above the the data is simple and straightforward)
1. Unsurprisingly, the # 1 pick gave teams the greatest chance to acquire a great player (32.5%)
2. The cutoff point is the # 6 pick 80% of the best players were chosen at that point or higher
3. Looking at the top 10 the percentage is 85%
4. in the lottery(ie top 14)(92.5%)
5. CONCLUSION: Simple the higher the pick...

Who is arguing that the number 1,2 or 3 pick is a bad thing? Just that the draft is not a sure thing and therefore should not be a reason to intentionally tank a season. And btw, can you list all the top 5 picks that turned out to be duds? Also, saying the draft is a crap shoot does not imply it is not a neccesary part of building a team. Just that it is not a guarantee a chip. Even if you get a high pick.

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
awe1028
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9/9/2017  10:42 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/9/2017  10:45 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Who is arguing that the number 1,2 or 3 pick is a bad thing? Just that the draft is not a sure thing and therefore should not be a reason to intentionally tank a season. And btw, can you list all the top 5 picks that turned out to be duds? Also, saying the draft is a crap shoot does not imply it is not a neccesary part of building a team. Just that it is not a guarantee a chip. Even if you get a high pick.

Right back at you: who is arguing the draft is a guarantee? Instead,the argument is that having a high pick increases significantly the chances of acquiring a game changing talent. The question is how high does the pick have to be. The cut off number seems to be right about pick 5/pick 6. Therefore the Knicks should be shooting for no worse than # 5 and of course even higher.

Contrast that with the counter argument made by some which suggests building through the draft is akin to playing the powerball. Ludicrous.

nixluva
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9/10/2017  3:03 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.

The same guy who had everything to do with this roster is still here with even more power, how exactly is that a new FO. Is that because we added perry.

I get it, you're a knick fan, and you're being optimistic.

Trust me when i say, I hope I'm so wrong about mills, but i seriously doubt it. One thing Im very confident about, is that the coaching staff is not right for the direction of this team.

To me signing THJ before you signed a play making veteran pg, was like buying the carriage and having to settle for a pony to pull it because you had no more money for a horse. Thats ass backwards

Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Walt Frazier and breen kept reminding us every game that KP was leading the league in fouls right up until he got injured.

The question you keep avoiding is weather or not you feel we have the best coaching staff and front office in place to build, teach, develop, and lead this franchise to the next level in 2 to 3 yrs

I don't know how you equate a new front office as being in place when only one person has been replace.
If Griffin got the job, you and i both know majority of the front office would have followed Phill or been demoted.
To me, that would have been classified as change. If mills is continuing from where phill left off (like some you have claimed)what's NEW?

Perry is slight breath of fresh air, but we'll see how much impact he has in the coming days.

We will learn a LOT more about this coaching staff from here on. For one thing the combination of DRose and Jennings turned out to be a huge part of the resistance along with Melo! Minus some of them and replacing them with more compliant players WILL make a difference! Not to mention the effort level and buy in should help improve execution a great deal on both ends

The Front Office has a good deal of new blood. The fact that Mills may be continuing SOME aspects of what Phil was doing doesn't mean there's no change. Clearly Mills has his own ideas which have already been demonstrated. Perry and his people will bring different ideas and approach as well.

If you stop being convinced things won't improve you might be able to see the opportunities for positive change that exist. There are no guarantees but from what I see there's already been some positive changes. The focus is on not just this season but the future.

I think things were pretty messy last year. I am not sure how you could add more compliant players then a group that consisted of 8 undrafted players, and only 5 guys that were drafted in the first round. The roster was made up of guys just trying to stay in the league. It seemed like Jax was thinking about bringing Rose back,
According to several local media sources, Phil Jackson was greatly impressed with Derrick Rose’s testimony in his exit interview. Plus, Rose has publicly stated that he sincerely wants to return to New York.
https://www.fanragsports.com/knicks/rosen-knicks-re-sign-derrick-rose/
I think moving on from Rose was the right move. I also don't think his presence helped KP but only one guy skipped his exit meeting and now we know that at least in part it was because of issues with the coach. I don't think all was fixed with Rose and Jax leaving. I am concerned about Jeff/Rambis after everything that happened last year. Woj reported that players hate Rambis. Rosen said on a podcast that Minny ruined Rambis and that he isn't able to relate to players. Woj seems to enjoy going after Phil but Rosen is Phil's guy. I wish things were cleaned up a bit more (i.e. Melo gone, Rambis gone and possibly Jeff gone). The issues between KP and Jeff were significant. Aside from the undrafted guys, I am not sure what guys on the roster last year were Jeff guys. In my opinion major problems were only partially addressed.

The ball handlers to start were DRose and Jennings and they along with Melo mounted a MUTINY!!! How the F is that compliant? Yeah we can do a heck of a lot better in terms of players BUYING IN and executing what the coaches want. We can get better Effort Level too!

IMO all the other stuff you bring up is being overstated. Part of KP's deal was wanting to do what he's done this summer. The National Team and Videos! Building his brand and profile as a national hero. I don't expect KP will have any major issues with the coaches. I don't think any of this stuff that's been reported is as serious or unresolvable as you're trying to make it seem.

Knickoftime
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9/10/2017  11:47 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
awe1028 wrote:I am quite surprised that some members are debating the idea the idea that the higher a team picks in the draft the greater the chance of obtaining a great player. For me it seems quite obvious. Therefore I decided to look at the best players in the NBA and list the pick at which each was selected. This is not a complex or deep analysis the data is simple and straightforward. And clearly the players chosen are subjective. However I believe the list fairly accurately represents a list of players who most would consider to be among the best in the NBA.

Center
Wilt Chamberlain #1 1959 #1
Bill Russell #3 1956 #3
Kareem 1969 #1
Hakeem 1984 #1
Patrick 1985 #1
Shaq 1992 #1
Admiral 1987 #1

Power Forward
Tim Duncan 1999 #1
Charles Barkley 1984 #5
Karl Malone 1985 #13
Dirk Nowitzki 1996 # 6
Kevin Garnett 1995 #5
Kevin Mchale 1980 # 6
Blake Griffin #1

Small Forward
Lebron James 2003 #1
Larry Bird 1978 #6
Dr. J 1972 # 12
Kevin Durant 2007 #2
Kawhi Leonard 2011 # 15
Scottie Pippen 1987 #5
Dominique Wilkins 1982 # 3
Carmelo Anthony 2003 #3

Shooting Guard
Michael Jordan 1984 #3
Kobe Bryant 1996 #13
Oscar Robertson 1960 #1
Jerry West 1960 #2
Dwayne Wade 2003 #5
Reggie Miller 1987 #11
Tracy Mcgrady 1997 #9
Vince Carter 1998 # 5

Point Guard
Magic Johnson 1970 #1
Steve Nash 1996 #15
Isiah Thomas 1981 #2
Jason Kidd 1994 #2
John Stockton 1984 # 16
Allen Iverson #1 1996 #1
Steph Curry 2009 #7
Russell Westbrook 2008 #4
James Harden 2009 #3
Kyrie Irving 2011 #1

Picks 1: 13
Picks 2 : 4
Picks 3: 5
Picks 4: 1
Picks 5: 5
Picks 6: 4
Picks 7: 1
Picks 8: 0
Picks 9: 1
Picks 10: 0
Picks 11: 1
Picks 12: 1
Picks 13: 1
Picks 14: 0
Picks 15: 2
Picks 16: 1
Total Players: 40

What do the numbers tell us (As mentioned above the the data is simple and straightforward)
1. Unsurprisingly, the # 1 pick gave teams the greatest chance to acquire a great player (32.5%)
2. The cutoff point is the # 6 pick 80% of the best players were chosen at that point or higher
3. Looking at the top 10 the percentage is 85%
4. in the lottery(ie top 14)(92.5%)
5. CONCLUSION: Simple the higher the pick...

Who is arguing that the number 1,2 or 3 pick is a bad thing? Just that the draft is not a sure thing and therefore should not be a reason to intentionally tank a season. And btw, can you list all the top 5 picks that turned out to be duds? Also, saying the draft is a crap shoot does not imply it is not a neccesary part of building a team. Just that it is not a guarantee a chip. Even if you get a high pick.

As always, this is professional sports, no "guarantees" is the default.

And once again, nobody is actually advocating losing games on purpose.

Moving on from Melo, the center of gravity of a team that has not made the postseason in four years, is not tanking.

Knickoftime
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9/10/2017  12:15 PM
What a weird turn this conversation has taken.

That the higher you pick in the NBA draft, the demonstratively better your chances of getting an impact player is has already been litigated and ruled on. It is an objective fact.

As it applies to the Knicks, this has never been a choice between legitimately competing or losing as many games as possible to get a top pick. That's a false pretense.

This is a choice between the likely non-man's land of 31-37 wins - the new normal with Melo - and seeing what happens without him.

Good or bad, inevitable life without him will be a transition/adjustment. If that happens in 2017-18, two things may occur:

1.) The Knick young core may perform better than expected without him and get a whole year under the belt transitioning, in which case, great.

or

2.) The inevitable transition may be difficult and they may qualify for a higher (better) lottery pick than they likely would've qualified for with Melo.

In which case, great.

awe1028
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9/10/2017  12:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/10/2017  12:54 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:

Who is arguing that the number 1,2 or 3 pick is a bad thing? Just that the draft is not a sure thing and therefore should not be a reason to intentionally tank a season. And btw, can you list all the top 5 picks that turned out to be duds? Also, saying the draft is a crap shoot does not imply it is not a neccesary part of building a team. Just that it is not a guarantee a chip. Even if you get a high pick.

As always, this is professional sports, no "guarantees" is the default.

And once again, nobody is actually advocating losing games on purpose.

Moving on from Melo, the center of gravity of a team that has not made the postseason in four years, is not tanking.

Precisely. Exactly who is advocating losing on purpose or making any guarantees.

It is possible to lose despite trying to win, SMH. The Nets lost a lot of games last season. Were they trying to lose on purpose? The Lakers, Phoenix also lost a lot of games. Were they trying to lose on purpose?

What is being suggested is that the Knicks become like the Nets or LA or Phoenix lose a lot of games so they can pick at the very highest levels of the draft.

The Knicks are one star piece away from having a dominant young core. The numbers above clearly demonstrate picking at the highest levels of the draft significantly increases a team's chance of acquiring said star player.

Welpee
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9/10/2017  12:45 PM
awe1028 wrote:I am quite surprised that some members are debating the idea the idea that the higher a team picks in the draft the greater the chance of obtaining a great player. For me it seems quite obvious. Therefore I decided to look at the best players in the NBA and list the pick at which each was selected. This is not a complex or deep analysis the data is simple and straightforward. And clearly the players chosen are subjective. However I believe the list fairly accurately represents a list of players who most would consider to be among the best in the NBA.

Center
Wilt Chamberlain #1 1959 #1
Bill Russell #3 1956 #3
Kareem 1969 #1
Hakeem 1984 #1
Patrick 1985 #1
Shaq 1992 #1
Admiral 1987 #1

Power Forward
Tim Duncan 1999 #1
Charles Barkley 1984 #5
Karl Malone 1985 #13
Dirk Nowitzki 1996 # 6
Kevin Garnett 1995 #5
Kevin Mchale 1980 # 6
Blake Griffin #1

Small Forward
Lebron James 2003 #1
Larry Bird 1978 #6
Dr. J 1972 # 12
Kevin Durant 2007 #2
Kawhi Leonard 2011 # 15
Scottie Pippen 1987 #5
Dominique Wilkins 1982 # 3
Carmelo Anthony 2003 #3

Shooting Guard
Michael Jordan 1984 #3
Kobe Bryant 1996 #13
Oscar Robertson 1960 #1
Jerry West 1960 #2
Dwayne Wade 2003 #5
Reggie Miller 1987 #11
Tracy Mcgrady 1997 #9
Vince Carter 1998 # 5

Point Guard
Magic Johnson 1970 #1
Steve Nash 1996 #15
Isiah Thomas 1981 #2
Jason Kidd 1994 #2
John Stockton 1984 # 16
Allen Iverson #1 1996 #1
Steph Curry 2009 #7
Russell Westbrook 2008 #4
James Harden 2009 #3
Kyrie Irving 2011 #1

Picks 1: 13
Picks 2 : 4
Picks 3: 5
Picks 4: 1
Picks 5: 5
Picks 6: 4
Picks 7: 1
Picks 8: 0
Picks 9: 1
Picks 10: 0
Picks 11: 1
Picks 12: 1
Picks 13: 1
Picks 14: 0
Picks 15: 2
Picks 16: 1
Total Players: 40

What do the numbers tell us (As mentioned above the the data is simple and straightforward)
1. Unsurprisingly, the # 1 pick gave teams the greatest chance to acquire a great player (32.5%)
2. The cutoff point is the # 6 pick 80% of the best players were chosen at that point or higher
3. Looking at the top 10 the percentage is 85%
4. in the lottery(ie top 14)(92.5%)
5. CONCLUSION: Simple the higher the pick...


Conclusion to the wrong question. Nobody questioned whether the best players a generally picked higher.

The question is whether tanking and betting on two things happening simultaneously is the best way to build a team: 1) you lose enough to have highest chance with the ping pong balls yielding the top pick and 2) betting that the particular draft that you have the #1 pick yields an all-time franchise building player.

Suppose you tanked in 2000 and got the #1 pick and had to choose between Kenyon Martin, Stromile Swift, Darius Miles, Mike Miller or Marcus Fizer? If tanking is a team's strategy you're basically playing the lotto to build your team.

HofstraBBall
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9/10/2017  1:36 PM
Knickoftime wrote:What a weird turn this conversation has taken.

That the higher you pick in the NBA draft, the demonstratively better your chances of getting an impact player is has already been litigated and ruled on. It is an objective fact.

As it applies to the Knicks, this has never been a choice between legitimately competing or losing as many games as possible to get a top pick. That's a false pretense.

This is a choice between the likely non-man's land of 31-37 wins - the new normal with Melo - and seeing what happens without him.

Good or bad, inevitable life without him will be a transition/adjustment. If that happens in 2017-18, two things may occur:

1.) The Knick young core may perform better than expected without him and get a whole year under the belt transitioning, in which case, great.

or

2.) The inevitable transition may be difficult and they may qualify for a higher (better) lottery pick than they likely would've qualified for with Melo.

In which case, great.

You brought up the draft not being a crap shoot? Specifically 5 vs 10 vs 20 . Most agree that top 3 picks are the true game changers..

Knicks needing to move on from Melo is not being argued by anyone on here except maybe 2 posters. So why keep presenting the same case?

Melo Haters = Lin lovers who are mad Houston paid so much for his 15 Minutes,
CrushAlot
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9/10/2017  1:45 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.

The same guy who had everything to do with this roster is still here with even more power, how exactly is that a new FO. Is that because we added perry.

I get it, you're a knick fan, and you're being optimistic.

Trust me when i say, I hope I'm so wrong about mills, but i seriously doubt it. One thing Im very confident about, is that the coaching staff is not right for the direction of this team.

To me signing THJ before you signed a play making veteran pg, was like buying the carriage and having to settle for a pony to pull it because you had no more money for a horse. Thats ass backwards

Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Walt Frazier and breen kept reminding us every game that KP was leading the league in fouls right up until he got injured.

The question you keep avoiding is weather or not you feel we have the best coaching staff and front office in place to build, teach, develop, and lead this franchise to the next level in 2 to 3 yrs

I don't know how you equate a new front office as being in place when only one person has been replace.
If Griffin got the job, you and i both know majority of the front office would have followed Phill or been demoted.
To me, that would have been classified as change. If mills is continuing from where phill left off (like some you have claimed)what's NEW?

Perry is slight breath of fresh air, but we'll see how much impact he has in the coming days.

We will learn a LOT more about this coaching staff from here on. For one thing the combination of DRose and Jennings turned out to be a huge part of the resistance along with Melo! Minus some of them and replacing them with more compliant players WILL make a difference! Not to mention the effort level and buy in should help improve execution a great deal on both ends

The Front Office has a good deal of new blood. The fact that Mills may be continuing SOME aspects of what Phil was doing doesn't mean there's no change. Clearly Mills has his own ideas which have already been demonstrated. Perry and his people will bring different ideas and approach as well.

If you stop being convinced things won't improve you might be able to see the opportunities for positive change that exist. There are no guarantees but from what I see there's already been some positive changes. The focus is on not just this season but the future.

I think things were pretty messy last year. I am not sure how you could add more compliant players then a group that consisted of 8 undrafted players, and only 5 guys that were drafted in the first round. The roster was made up of guys just trying to stay in the league. It seemed like Jax was thinking about bringing Rose back,
According to several local media sources, Phil Jackson was greatly impressed with Derrick Rose’s testimony in his exit interview. Plus, Rose has publicly stated that he sincerely wants to return to New York.
https://www.fanragsports.com/knicks/rosen-knicks-re-sign-derrick-rose/
I think moving on from Rose was the right move. I also don't think his presence helped KP but only one guy skipped his exit meeting and now we know that at least in part it was because of issues with the coach. I don't think all was fixed with Rose and Jax leaving. I am concerned about Jeff/Rambis after everything that happened last year. Woj reported that players hate Rambis. Rosen said on a podcast that Minny ruined Rambis and that he isn't able to relate to players. Woj seems to enjoy going after Phil but Rosen is Phil's guy. I wish things were cleaned up a bit more (i.e. Melo gone, Rambis gone and possibly Jeff gone). The issues between KP and Jeff were significant. Aside from the undrafted guys, I am not sure what guys on the roster last year were Jeff guys. In my opinion major problems were only partially addressed.

The ball handlers to start were DRose and Jennings and they along with Melo mounted a MUTINY!!! How the F is that compliant? Yeah we can do a heck of a lot better in terms of players BUYING IN and executing what the coaches want. We can get better Effort Level too!

IMO all the other stuff you bring up is being overstated. Part of KP's deal was wanting to do what he's done this summer. The National Team and Videos! Building his brand and profile as a national hero. I don't expect KP will have any major issues with the coaches. I don't think any of this stuff that's been reported is as serious or unresolvable as you're trying to make it seem.

I wish it was as simple as, just take care of the three villains and everything will be fixed. Melo is coming back. KP and Jeff did have issues and KP did skip his exit meeting and not respond to Jeff's texts earlier in the summer. Rambis isn't liked by the players. The Knicks finally have some roster/coaching continuity heading into a season where they probably would have been better off moving on from some of their players and coaches.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
nixluva
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Member: #758
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9/10/2017  3:12 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.

The same guy who had everything to do with this roster is still here with even more power, how exactly is that a new FO. Is that because we added perry.

I get it, you're a knick fan, and you're being optimistic.

Trust me when i say, I hope I'm so wrong about mills, but i seriously doubt it. One thing Im very confident about, is that the coaching staff is not right for the direction of this team.

To me signing THJ before you signed a play making veteran pg, was like buying the carriage and having to settle for a pony to pull it because you had no more money for a horse. Thats ass backwards

Mills had everything to do with this roster? That is even more made up than your KP leads the NBA in fouls. Rambis actually made all the choices.

I hope you're being sarcastic. Walt Frazier and breen kept reminding us every game that KP was leading the league in fouls right up until he got injured.

The question you keep avoiding is weather or not you feel we have the best coaching staff and front office in place to build, teach, develop, and lead this franchise to the next level in 2 to 3 yrs

I don't know how you equate a new front office as being in place when only one person has been replace.
If Griffin got the job, you and i both know majority of the front office would have followed Phill or been demoted.
To me, that would have been classified as change. If mills is continuing from where phill left off (like some you have claimed)what's NEW?

Perry is slight breath of fresh air, but we'll see how much impact he has in the coming days.

We will learn a LOT more about this coaching staff from here on. For one thing the combination of DRose and Jennings turned out to be a huge part of the resistance along with Melo! Minus some of them and replacing them with more compliant players WILL make a difference! Not to mention the effort level and buy in should help improve execution a great deal on both ends

The Front Office has a good deal of new blood. The fact that Mills may be continuing SOME aspects of what Phil was doing doesn't mean there's no change. Clearly Mills has his own ideas which have already been demonstrated. Perry and his people will bring different ideas and approach as well.

If you stop being convinced things won't improve you might be able to see the opportunities for positive change that exist. There are no guarantees but from what I see there's already been some positive changes. The focus is on not just this season but the future.

I think things were pretty messy last year. I am not sure how you could add more compliant players then a group that consisted of 8 undrafted players, and only 5 guys that were drafted in the first round. The roster was made up of guys just trying to stay in the league. It seemed like Jax was thinking about bringing Rose back,
According to several local media sources, Phil Jackson was greatly impressed with Derrick Rose’s testimony in his exit interview. Plus, Rose has publicly stated that he sincerely wants to return to New York.
https://www.fanragsports.com/knicks/rosen-knicks-re-sign-derrick-rose/
I think moving on from Rose was the right move. I also don't think his presence helped KP but only one guy skipped his exit meeting and now we know that at least in part it was because of issues with the coach. I don't think all was fixed with Rose and Jax leaving. I am concerned about Jeff/Rambis after everything that happened last year. Woj reported that players hate Rambis. Rosen said on a podcast that Minny ruined Rambis and that he isn't able to relate to players. Woj seems to enjoy going after Phil but Rosen is Phil's guy. I wish things were cleaned up a bit more (i.e. Melo gone, Rambis gone and possibly Jeff gone). The issues between KP and Jeff were significant. Aside from the undrafted guys, I am not sure what guys on the roster last year were Jeff guys. In my opinion major problems were only partially addressed.

The ball handlers to start were DRose and Jennings and they along with Melo mounted a MUTINY!!! How the F is that compliant? Yeah we can do a heck of a lot better in terms of players BUYING IN and executing what the coaches want. We can get better Effort Level too!

IMO all the other stuff you bring up is being overstated. Part of KP's deal was wanting to do what he's done this summer. The National Team and Videos! Building his brand and profile as a national hero. I don't expect KP will have any major issues with the coaches. I don't think any of this stuff that's been reported is as serious or unresolvable as you're trying to make it seem.

I wish it was as simple as, just take care of the three villains and everything will be fixed. Melo is coming back. KP and Jeff did have issues and KP did skip his exit meeting and not respond to Jeff's texts earlier in the summer. Rambis isn't liked by the players. The Knicks finally have some roster/coaching continuity heading into a season where they probably would have been better off moving on from some of their players and coaches.

The only time KP showed any problems on the court came after his Achilles injury. By the end of the year KP was on an upswing until tweaking his back in Boston. I don't think or expect KP to come to camp with any lingering issues that would stop him from performing at his best.

You're stuck on this meanwhile the players and coaches are busy preparing for the new season. Jeff and KP can work on their communication all Camp and Preseason. IMO you're making a bit too much of this issue. No doubt KP felt some kinda way but I don't think it's something irreparable.

Imagine tanking

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