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fishmike
Posts: 53040 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA |
9/8/2017 11:56 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh "winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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knicks1248
Posts: 42059 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 2/3/2004 Member: #582 |
9/8/2017 12:17 PM LAST EDITED: 9/8/2017 12:31 PM
fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba.. Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development ES
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GustavBahler
Posts: 41138 Alba Posts: 15 Joined: 7/12/2010 Member: #3186 |
9/8/2017 12:27 PM LAST EDITED: 9/8/2017 12:27 PM
arkrud wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Welpee wrote:GustavBahler wrote:I agree that a hybrid approach sounds the most reasonable. But why do you think Philly was more of a fluke? I think their plan was to be as bad as possible and stockpile high lottery players. And I think they were totally fine with Noel and Embiid missing entire seasons and aid the "process."arkrud wrote:GustavBahler wrote:knicks1248 wrote:with all the tanking phili has done and all the young talent they have , Im going to go out on a limb and predict they will be in the lottery again this season, and will finally come to their senses and trade that pick along with one of their talented losers, FOR THE BEST AVAILABLE STAR VET Nothing small about the sample size in this case. More than just a slight variance. They had three top draft picks miss entire seasons, which allowed them to get more high draft picks. Hinkie made the most of a bad situation, thats a long way from him planning this strategy all along. If Noel and Embid had been healthy they most likely would not have Simmons. This is not a plan that can be replicated unless your plan is to draft only injured players. |
fishmike
Posts: 53040 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA |
9/8/2017 12:30 PM
knicks1248 wrote:its not an excuse. Its a reality. Poor development? He's gotten better in every category from one year to the other. So just stop.fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh You clearly have no concept on player development and how this works. KP has plenty of things he needs to work on. Who on this board is saying he doesnt? The REALITY is he's 21 and continues to work on his game and continues to get better. You are crying about a zit. SMH "winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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knicks1248
Posts: 42059 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 2/3/2004 Member: #582 |
9/8/2017 12:41 PM
fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:its not an excuse. Its a reality. Poor development? He's gotten better in every category from one year to the other. So just stop.fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh so you honestly feel that JH and rambis are doing a good job with him? ES
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GustavBahler
Posts: 41138 Alba Posts: 15 Joined: 7/12/2010 Member: #3186 |
9/8/2017 12:44 PM
knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh 2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here. |
Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/8/2017 1:14 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, You are, in fact, making that up. He was second in total fouls to Cousins. Fouls are like hits in Major League baseball - sometimes your total is the product of a lot of GP/ABs or a lack of walks and not necessarily a high batting average. Diving even deeper, per 48 mins he was in a four way tie for 97th at 5.4 per, behind players like Daryl Arthur (80), Michael Carter-Williams (72), David West (68), Joakim Noah (65), Joel Embiid & Kyle O'Quinn (39), Roy Hibbert (33), and Andrew Bogut (32) (and 87 more). But I don't suspect the facts matter to you much. |
fishmike
Posts: 53040 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA |
9/8/2017 1:21 PM
GustavBahler wrote:He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.knicks1248 wrote:fishmike wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh "winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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fishmike
Posts: 53040 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA |
9/8/2017 1:22 PM
Knickoftime wrote:facts impinge on his brilliant comments. They need not apply.knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, "winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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arkrud
Posts: 32217 Alba Posts: 7 Joined: 8/31/2005 Member: #995 USA |
9/8/2017 1:48 PM
fishmike wrote:Knickoftime wrote:facts impinge on his brilliant comments. They need not apply.knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, He is very normal dude. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/8/2017 1:52 PM
knicks1248 wrote:with all the tanking phili has done and all the young talent they have , Im going to go out on a limb and predict they will be in the lottery again this season, and will finally come to their senses and trade that pick along with one of their talented losers, FOR THE BEST AVAILABLE STAR VET Ah, so you've come around. This is exactly why you trade or release Melo. If your intention is to trade a lottery pick, the better the pick is, the highest its value. Heck, it almost sounds like you're the only one making argument for "tanking." PLOT TWIST!! |
HofstraBBall
Posts: 27152 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 11/21/2015 Member: #6192 |
9/8/2017 2:07 PM
Knickoftime wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Knickoftime wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Lee, Noah, Lance, and KOQ's value HAS DIMINISH in the last couple of losing seasons, and it's imperative to get those vets going so they become trade assets. True. A NTC is tricky. But that just quickly moves us to the next option. The one that I disagreed with you about. Buying him out with no return. Kust add zero value. So we cut him because he does not hel devwlo the youth? Is he now the coach? With that rationale, every player on the team that does not help develop the youth should be bought out. Was that the criteria for signing Beasley, Timmy? If so, they failed. Should we now buy out guys like KO, Kuz and Noah? Dint see hiw they help. As for mentoring. How can you or I measure if he is a good Mentor? And what kind of mentoring are we talkimg about? Do you mean mentoring the youth on how to run the Triangle? Agreed, Melo can't do that. But dont think anyone can, including the 3 coaches that tried. Mayne you mean mentoring the youth by showing them how a pro stays in shape, is a good team mate, works hard on his craft, handles pressure, is not afraid to take a big shot and keeps his mouth shut and plays ball(even if front office is publicly criticizing him)? He can do that. Can he Mentor someone on offensive moves? He can. Mentor someone on defense, nope, let's cut him? . The value he adds is that he gives them a better chance to win. Judging by their record without him. However, I agree that he should and will be traded. Just not bought out. In my opinion (and the new front office's) buying him out adds less value than keeping him on the team. 'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
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fishmike
Posts: 53040 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA |
9/8/2017 2:52 PM
arkrud wrote:I think you need to broaden your circles.fishmike wrote:Knickoftime wrote:facts impinge on his brilliant comments. They need not apply.knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, "winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/8/2017 2:55 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:So we cut him because he does not hel devwlo the youth? Is he now the coach? With that rationale, every player on the team that does not help develop the youth should be bought out. Was that the criteria for signing Beasley, Timmy? If so, they failed. Should we now buy out guys like KO, Kuz and Noah? Dint see hiw they help. I wrote conducive. That has a meaning. Melo's issues are often exaggerated, but they're also not illegitimate. He will be the floor and locker room alpha dog so long as he's here, and his defensive effort is legitimately questionable. On offense he is the center of gravity while on the floor, and does have a legitimate tendency to hold the ball on the wing curtaining ball movement. He's not the coach, no. But to analogize his place and influence on the team with Beasley, Hardaway (who is one of the youth), KO, Kuz and Noah is off-base. As for mentoring. How can you or I measure if he is a good Mentor? And what kind of mentoring are we talkimg about? Do you mean mentoring the youth on how to run the Triangle? Agreed, Melo can't do that. But dont think anyone can, including the 3 coaches that tried. Mayne you mean mentoring the youth by showing them how a pro stays in shape, is a good team mate, works hard on his craft, handles pressure, is not afraid to take a big shot and keeps his mouth shut and plays ball(even if front office is publicly criticizing him)? He can do that. Can he Mentor someone on offensive moves? He can. Mentor someone on defense, nope, let's cut him? . Judgment call, arrived upon by observation. I wrote "seems" which is a direct acknowledgment it is based on my impression. And perhaps "mentor" was the wrong word. I don't get the sense he's ready to give up his alpha dog status. My impression is so long as he's here he'll consider himself the best player other players should defer to. I'm by no means a Melo hater. I think he is who is and that's fine. I just don't see him taking a step back and turning keys over willingly, which is what I meant. I think the long term interests of this team now puts KP and Hardaway (that's what he was brought here for) at the heads of the table. Again my opinion is I don't think Melo is ready for a side chair, at least not on this team. The value he adds is that he gives them a better chance to win. There's an argument to be made that's not a good thing. I'm not for losing games on purpose. I'm for at this stage letting the young core sink or swim. Either way I don't think the Knicks are a legitimate playoff team. If they happen to thrive without Melo - great. They should win every game he can and strive to make the postseason. But if his lack of presence ultimately nets a few extra ping pong balls, that to me is the value added of his absence (along with all the other stuff I just detailed). |
fishmike
Posts: 53040 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA |
9/8/2017 4:01 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:Josh Smith led the Piston's in minutes played and shots taken. He was waived the following year.Knickoftime wrote:HofstraBBall wrote:Knickoftime wrote:knicks1248 wrote:Lee, Noah, Lance, and KOQ's value HAS DIMINISH in the last couple of losing seasons, and it's imperative to get those vets going so they become trade assets. How do you quantify Melo's value in terms of the Knicks winning? How do you quantify Melo as the Knick's best player? He's certainly not the best defender. He leads the team shots taken for sure, but he was 7th on the team in true shooting %, He was 9th in FG% on the team. 9th on the team in EFG%. So you have a guy who a terrible defender last year. They track this stuff. His defensive metrics, rankings... everything was abysmal. So that leaves you with a guy who is a scorer. Well he sure takes a lot of shots, but he's between 7-9th, ON HIS OWN TEAM in like every measurable efficiency category. Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message. This is a marriage that can end gracefully and it should. Melo is a HOF player. He came and took the blame (and the shots). Melo isnt a bum. He IS a bad fit on a young developing team. Why? You know why. Everyone knows why. Having Melo hold the ball, struggle on D as he continues to age and slow and take 20+ shots a game is doing nothing to aid the development on anyone on this roster. That time as simply passed. The young players should be taking those shots hit or miss. The young guy should be playing better defense, and if they dont thats why they are getting the minutes.. to learn and be evaluated by the FO. I can see that many's desire to jettison Melo rubs you the wrong way, but you speak of him like he's the 54 win Melo and its just been a couple tough years. That player has been gone for awhile and his game has been in steady decline, regardless of who his teammates are. Does winning 38 games with Melo make sense vs. winning 32 games without him? Do those 6 wins help us? I dont see how they do. What would help us is seeing Dotson for 50+ games and seeing what he's got. Or Kuz. Melo actually has some upside for the team that gets him. He will be better than he was with the Knicks. Thats more human nature than anything else. Is he bringing leadership and intangibles we need to hang onto? I hope so! I really do (if he's around in the fall). "winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/8/2017 4:36 PM
fishmike wrote:Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message. I agree with most everything that you said obviously, since I wrote much of it in my own reply. Don't agree with us though. Waiving him means he gets all his money, and goes to Houston, where he wants to go. It's a win-win for him. Knicks would be doing him a favor. No Houston doesn't get his bird rights, but I don't think the fact that the knicks aren't giving him a win-win-win would be viewed negatively. |
newyorknewyork
Posts: 29852 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 1/16/2004 Member: #541 |
9/8/2017 5:13 PM LAST EDITED: 9/8/2017 5:14 PM
Knickoftime wrote:fishmike wrote:Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message. If he gets waived a team could claim him off waivers correct? Not saying that's what should be done. Just looming for info. https://vote.nba.com/en Vote for your Knicks.
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Knickoftime
Posts: 24159 Alba Posts: 0 Joined: 1/13/2011 Member: #3370 |
9/8/2017 5:23 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:Knickoftime wrote:fishmike wrote:Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message. Yes. He would be available to the teams with $26m in cap space to spare and don't mind spending it on a disgruntled player. |