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Imagine tanking
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newyorknewyork
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9/8/2017  11:39 AM
Regardless of tanking. The Melo, KP, Willy frontcourt doesn't work defensively. Don't know if KP is ready to be a full time center yet or that Melo is willing to start at PF. If Willy was pushed to be bench in order to start a Lee, Melo, KP frontcourt. Then Willy, Noah, KOQ would all have to share backup mins at the center spot.

Until this get ironed out. The team will probably continue to struggle defensively and will continue to lose games.

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knicks1248
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9/8/2017  11:41 AM
Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

ES
fishmike
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9/8/2017  11:56 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
knicks1248
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9/8/2017  12:17 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2017  12:31 PM
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

ES
GustavBahler
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9/8/2017  12:27 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2017  12:27 PM
arkrud wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
arkrud wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:with all the tanking phili has done and all the young talent they have , Im going to go out on a limb and predict they will be in the lottery again this season, and will finally come to their senses and trade that pick along with one of their talented losers, FOR THE BEST AVAILABLE STAR VET

I would want to wait and see who will be the cream of the crop of next summer before the Knicks made that call. Im not opposed to it, if the right player came along, but I sure wouldnt want to see the Knicks handcuff themselves to that plan.

You just give your young core an environment to grow with big minutes and many shot attempts and then there is no need for tanking.
After you get and grow a stud(s) who start caring the team into competitiveness you start looking at FA and trades to build around them(him).
I would call this process "crop selection" not tanking.
With cap system it is not possible to assemble the team from established stars.
The hybrid system is required.
And when organization is totally fac..ed by starpunching the "crop selection" is the only realistic path back from the dead.

Yes, there are many ways to lose. As long as the players believe its more about their growth, than more draft picks, its a better option than flushing the roster.

Yes, it would be tough assemble a contender from just FAs, and it would also be tough do it mostly through the draft. What happened in Philly was more of a fluke than anything. It about finding the right balance.

I agree that a hybrid approach sounds the most reasonable. But why do you think Philly was more of a fluke? I think their plan was to be as bad as possible and stockpile high lottery players. And I think they were totally fine with Noel and Embiid missing entire seasons and aid the "process."

Look at all the first round picks who got hurt, couldnt play. They werent there to help the team get better, so Philly kept winding up with high draft picks.

How many times in NBA history has that many consecutive top draft picks on one team, miss as many games as theirs did? Thats why I say its a fluke.

With small sample sizes the variance is huge.
It can be any kind of luck or misfortune for specific team and still being not the worst case.
Sticking to the system and method is the only way to ride off the variance.
You may say Spurs, Warriors, Cavs, etc. get lucky but in fact they just keep sticking to the system they selected to run and they still do.
No doubt its boring, no doubt its upsetting to the fans who cannot get it. But the results speak for themselves.
Knicks were contenders only when they were system team in 70th.
Systems are changing, game is changing, but the principals of consistent fundamental approach to team building never changed.

Nothing small about the sample size in this case. More than just a slight variance. They had three top draft picks miss entire seasons, which allowed them to get more high draft picks.

Hinkie made the most of a bad situation, thats a long way from him planning this strategy all along. If Noel and Embid had been healthy they most likely would not have Simmons.

This is not a plan that can be replicated unless your plan is to draft only injured players.

fishmike
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9/8/2017  12:30 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 of seas...cmon fish...that just poor development

its not an excuse. Its a reality. Poor development? He's gotten better in every category from one year to the other. So just stop.

You clearly have no concept on player development and how this works. KP has plenty of things he needs to work on. Who on this board is saying he doesnt? The REALITY is he's 21 and continues to work on his game and continues to get better. You are crying about a zit.

SMH

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
knicks1248
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9/8/2017  12:41 PM
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 of seas...cmon fish...that just poor development

its not an excuse. Its a reality. Poor development? He's gotten better in every category from one year to the other. So just stop.

You clearly have no concept on player development and how this works. KP has plenty of things he needs to work on. Who on this board is saying he doesnt? The REALITY is he's 21 and continues to work on his game and continues to get better. You are crying about a zit.

SMH

so you honestly feel that JH and rambis are doing a good job with him?

ES
GustavBahler
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9/8/2017  12:44 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

Knickoftime
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9/8/2017  1:14 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls,

You are, in fact, making that up.

He was second in total fouls to Cousins. Fouls are like hits in Major League baseball - sometimes your total is the product of a lot of GP/ABs or a lack of walks and not necessarily a high batting average.

Diving even deeper, per 48 mins he was in a four way tie for 97th at 5.4 per, behind players like Daryl Arthur (80), Michael Carter-Williams (72), David West (68), Joakim Noah (65), Joel Embiid & Kyle O'Quinn (39), Roy Hibbert (33), and Andrew Bogut (32) (and 87 more).

But I don't suspect the facts matter to you much.

fishmike
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9/8/2017  1:21 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Letting young players go out and play through their consistent mistakes, is the worst way to develop. I remember when MDA was ask if he would let LIN play through his mistakes, after a 9 turnover game (we still won) and he said normally he wouldn't, but we had no other pg option.

Well 3 wks later MIAMI capitalize on LINS mistakes, the scouting report was out on him, and he was never the same player.
When you let young players play through mistake, it takes much, longer to develop.

Similar to the way no ones taking time to teach KP how defend without fouling (just letting him play through it)and now he's overseas doing the same thing..smh

you look at the 1:09 mark of this clip, he's jumping in the air 8 feet from the hoop trying to block a layup, instead of just putting his hands up and taking a charge. He ends up crashing to the floor, and getting called for a foul.

nice to see you pick one play and say SMH. Go look at the blocks from his last game. A few he never left his feet. How old is KP? Oh yea... 21. Right around junior in college age. You have no perspective. smh

stop using his age as an excuse for everything he's doing wrong, the dude has been playing professionally (4 yrs)long before any of these 21 yr olds in the nba..

Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls, very silly ones at it. When you constantly see the same idiotic fouls game after game, your going to chalk it up to age after 2 yrs in the Nba, and 4 overseas...cmon fish...that just poor development

2 years in the league, 3 different coaches, two different rosters. The defensive coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NBA history, you know that. You arent factoring in that Porzingis's development by this franchise has been sketchy at best. Doesnt mean KP cant or wont improve defensively. You are really jumping the gun here.

He finds new ways to make no sense at all. With no perspective. There is a new front office for starters and KP has had 3 coaches in two years and still continued to get better and improve.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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9/8/2017  1:22 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls,

You are, in fact, making that up.

He was second in total fouls to Cousins. Fouls are like hits in Major League baseball - sometimes your total is the product of a lot of GP/ABs or a lack of walks and not necessarily a high batting average.

Diving even deeper, per 48 mins he was in a four way tie for 97th at 5.4 per, behind players like Daryl Arthur (80), Michael Carter-Williams (72), David West (68), Joakim Noah (65), Joel Embiid & Kyle O'Quinn (39), Roy Hibbert (33), and Andrew Bogut (32) (and 87 more).

But I don't suspect the facts matter to you much.

facts impinge on his brilliant comments. They need not apply.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
arkrud
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9/8/2017  1:48 PM
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls,

You are, in fact, making that up.

He was second in total fouls to Cousins. Fouls are like hits in Major League baseball - sometimes your total is the product of a lot of GP/ABs or a lack of walks and not necessarily a high batting average.

Diving even deeper, per 48 mins he was in a four way tie for 97th at 5.4 per, behind players like Daryl Arthur (80), Michael Carter-Williams (72), David West (68), Joakim Noah (65), Joel Embiid & Kyle O'Quinn (39), Roy Hibbert (33), and Andrew Bogut (32) (and 87 more).

But I don't suspect the facts matter to you much.

facts impinge on his brilliant comments. They need not apply.

He is very normal dude.
Most of the people only accept facts which are proving their view of the world.
Scientific and technological mindset required training and experience of countless mistakes and asserted misgivings about the reality.
Not everyone is up to this painful path.
Accepting that you are mostly wrong (and this always the case about everyone) is huge step in self development and success in life.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Knickoftime
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9/8/2017  1:52 PM
knicks1248 wrote:with all the tanking phili has done and all the young talent they have , Im going to go out on a limb and predict they will be in the lottery again this season, and will finally come to their senses and trade that pick along with one of their talented losers, FOR THE BEST AVAILABLE STAR VET

Ah, so you've come around.

This is exactly why you trade or release Melo.

If your intention is to trade a lottery pick, the better the pick is, the highest its value.

Heck, it almost sounds like you're the only one making argument for "tanking."

PLOT TWIST!!

HofstraBBall
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9/8/2017  2:07 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Lee, Noah, Lance, and KOQ's value HAS DIMINISH in the last couple of losing seasons, and it's imperative to get those vets going so they become trade assets.

Noah's contract, his drug suspension, his injury history and his play are four far greater factors (in that order) in his value than the Knicks team record.

I don't buy your premise and I'm pretty certain you have no evidence of it. NBA teams scout, they don't check the standings. Teams are indifferent to where talent comes from. They'd be more than happy to poach talent from a bad team.

Losing 60 games wont help anyone, not mills, not JH, and definitely not the players. There is a 85% chance of us drafting another role player even if we tank

And AGAIN, no one is proposing they tank.

Trading or releasing Melo (the centerpiece of four losing seasons in a row) is not tanking, it's rebuilding.

add that to the diminishing facts, and the young kp and willy walking out on you.

As someone who values precedent, I can't get too worried about KP. A rookie taking a qualifying offer as opposed to a max extension is literally unprecedented. To be concerned about that is hysterical, in the crazy, not humorous sense.

Plus he has two more years and then he's an RFA. Hernangomez is locked up for three more years. What happens in 2017-18 will be pretty ancient history by that stage.

So the benefit of tanking gives you a very small chance of getting a young star, and a very big chance of all the above

And AGAIN, who are you guys talking to and about with this tanking stuff?

Some good points. Disagree that releasing Melo would help rebuilding. Since you are a guy who values precedent, which franchise in recent history has gained anything by releasing their best player (who is healthy) with nothing in return?

Admittedly it is difficult to come up with one.

That said NTCs are very rare making the Knicks options with melo relatively unprecedented.

The question I can't answer is what does melo do for the Knicks?

His game doesn't seem conducive to developing youth. His demeanor doesn't seemed geared to adopting a true mentor role. His production hasn't helped much the last 4 seasons.

So what's the value added of his presence at this stage?

True. A NTC is tricky. But that just quickly moves us to the next option. The one that I disagreed with you about. Buying him out with no return. Kust add zero value.

So we cut him because he does not hel devwlo the youth? Is he now the coach? With that rationale, every player on the team that does not help develop the youth should be bought out. Was that the criteria for signing Beasley, Timmy? If so, they failed. Should we now buy out guys like KO, Kuz and Noah? Dint see hiw they help.

As for mentoring. How can you or I measure if he is a good Mentor? And what kind of mentoring are we talkimg about? Do you mean mentoring the youth on how to run the Triangle? Agreed, Melo can't do that. But dont think anyone can, including the 3 coaches that tried. Mayne you mean mentoring the youth by showing them how a pro stays in shape, is a good team mate, works hard on his craft, handles pressure, is not afraid to take a big shot and keeps his mouth shut and plays ball(even if front office is publicly criticizing him)? He can do that. Can he Mentor someone on offensive moves? He can. Mentor someone on defense, nope, let's cut him? .

The value he adds is that he gives them a better chance to win. Judging by their record without him. However, I agree that he should and will be traded. Just not bought out. In my opinion (and the new front office's) buying him out adds less value than keeping him on the team.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
fishmike
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9/8/2017  2:52 PM
arkrud wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Im not making this stuff up, he was tops in the NBA in fouls,

You are, in fact, making that up.

He was second in total fouls to Cousins. Fouls are like hits in Major League baseball - sometimes your total is the product of a lot of GP/ABs or a lack of walks and not necessarily a high batting average.

Diving even deeper, per 48 mins he was in a four way tie for 97th at 5.4 per, behind players like Daryl Arthur (80), Michael Carter-Williams (72), David West (68), Joakim Noah (65), Joel Embiid & Kyle O'Quinn (39), Roy Hibbert (33), and Andrew Bogut (32) (and 87 more).

But I don't suspect the facts matter to you much.

facts impinge on his brilliant comments. They need not apply.

He is very normal dude.
Most of the people only accept facts which are proving their view of the world.
Scientific and technological mindset required training and experience of countless mistakes and asserted misgivings about the reality.
Not everyone is up to this painful path.
Accepting that you are mostly wrong (and this always the case about everyone) is huge step in self development and success in life.

I think you need to broaden your circles.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knickoftime
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9/8/2017  2:55 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:So we cut him because he does not hel devwlo the youth? Is he now the coach? With that rationale, every player on the team that does not help develop the youth should be bought out. Was that the criteria for signing Beasley, Timmy? If so, they failed. Should we now buy out guys like KO, Kuz and Noah? Dint see hiw they help.

I wrote conducive. That has a meaning.

Melo's issues are often exaggerated, but they're also not illegitimate. He will be the floor and locker room alpha dog so long as he's here, and his defensive effort is legitimately questionable.

On offense he is the center of gravity while on the floor, and does have a legitimate tendency to hold the ball on the wing curtaining ball movement.

He's not the coach, no. But to analogize his place and influence on the team with Beasley, Hardaway (who is one of the youth), KO, Kuz and Noah is off-base.

As for mentoring. How can you or I measure if he is a good Mentor? And what kind of mentoring are we talkimg about? Do you mean mentoring the youth on how to run the Triangle? Agreed, Melo can't do that. But dont think anyone can, including the 3 coaches that tried. Mayne you mean mentoring the youth by showing them how a pro stays in shape, is a good team mate, works hard on his craft, handles pressure, is not afraid to take a big shot and keeps his mouth shut and plays ball(even if front office is publicly criticizing him)? He can do that. Can he Mentor someone on offensive moves? He can. Mentor someone on defense, nope, let's cut him? .

Judgment call, arrived upon by observation. I wrote "seems" which is a direct acknowledgment it is based on my impression. And perhaps "mentor" was the wrong word. I don't get the sense he's ready to give up his alpha dog status. My impression is so long as he's here he'll consider himself the best player other players should defer to.

I'm by no means a Melo hater. I think he is who is and that's fine. I just don't see him taking a step back and turning keys over willingly, which is what I meant. I think the long term interests of this team now puts KP and Hardaway (that's what he was brought here for) at the heads of the table. Again my opinion is I don't think Melo is ready for a side chair, at least not on this team.

The value he adds is that he gives them a better chance to win.

There's an argument to be made that's not a good thing. I'm not for losing games on purpose. I'm for at this stage letting the young core sink or swim. Either way I don't think the Knicks are a legitimate playoff team. If they happen to thrive without Melo - great. They should win every game he can and strive to make the postseason.

But if his lack of presence ultimately nets a few extra ping pong balls, that to me is the value added of his absence (along with all the other stuff I just detailed).

fishmike
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9/8/2017  4:01 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Lee, Noah, Lance, and KOQ's value HAS DIMINISH in the last couple of losing seasons, and it's imperative to get those vets going so they become trade assets.

Noah's contract, his drug suspension, his injury history and his play are four far greater factors (in that order) in his value than the Knicks team record.

I don't buy your premise and I'm pretty certain you have no evidence of it. NBA teams scout, they don't check the standings. Teams are indifferent to where talent comes from. They'd be more than happy to poach talent from a bad team.

Losing 60 games wont help anyone, not mills, not JH, and definitely not the players. There is a 85% chance of us drafting another role player even if we tank

And AGAIN, no one is proposing they tank.

Trading or releasing Melo (the centerpiece of four losing seasons in a row) is not tanking, it's rebuilding.

add that to the diminishing facts, and the young kp and willy walking out on you.

As someone who values precedent, I can't get too worried about KP. A rookie taking a qualifying offer as opposed to a max extension is literally unprecedented. To be concerned about that is hysterical, in the crazy, not humorous sense.

Plus he has two more years and then he's an RFA. Hernangomez is locked up for three more years. What happens in 2017-18 will be pretty ancient history by that stage.

So the benefit of tanking gives you a very small chance of getting a young star, and a very big chance of all the above

And AGAIN, who are you guys talking to and about with this tanking stuff?

Some good points. Disagree that releasing Melo would help rebuilding. Since you are a guy who values precedent, which franchise in recent history has gained anything by releasing their best player (who is healthy) with nothing in return?

Admittedly it is difficult to come up with one.

That said NTCs are very rare making the Knicks options with melo relatively unprecedented.

The question I can't answer is what does melo do for the Knicks?

His game doesn't seem conducive to developing youth. His demeanor doesn't seemed geared to adopting a true mentor role. His production hasn't helped much the last 4 seasons.

So what's the value added of his presence at this stage?

True. A NTC is tricky. But that just quickly moves us to the next option. The one that I disagreed with you about. Buying him out with no return. Kust add zero value.

So we cut him because he does not hel devwlo the youth? Is he now the coach? With that rationale, every player on the team that does not help develop the youth should be bought out. Was that the criteria for signing Beasley, Timmy? If so, they failed. Should we now buy out guys like KO, Kuz and Noah? Dint see hiw they help.

As for mentoring. How can you or I measure if he is a good Mentor? And what kind of mentoring are we talkimg about? Do you mean mentoring the youth on how to run the Triangle? Agreed, Melo can't do that. But dont think anyone can, including the 3 coaches that tried. Mayne you mean mentoring the youth by showing them how a pro stays in shape, is a good team mate, works hard on his craft, handles pressure, is not afraid to take a big shot and keeps his mouth shut and plays ball(even if front office is publicly criticizing him)? He can do that. Can he Mentor someone on offensive moves? He can. Mentor someone on defense, nope, let's cut him? .

The value he adds is that he gives them a better chance to win. Judging by their record without him. However, I agree that he should and will be traded. Just not bought out. In my opinion (and the new front office's) buying him out adds less value than keeping him on the team.

Josh Smith led the Piston's in minutes played and shots taken. He was waived the following year.

How do you quantify Melo's value in terms of the Knicks winning? How do you quantify Melo as the Knick's best player? He's certainly not the best defender. He leads the team shots taken for sure, but he was 7th on the team in true shooting %, He was 9th in FG% on the team. 9th on the team in EFG%.

So you have a guy who a terrible defender last year. They track this stuff. His defensive metrics, rankings... everything was abysmal. So that leaves you with a guy who is a scorer. Well he sure takes a lot of shots, but he's between 7-9th, ON HIS OWN TEAM in like every measurable efficiency category.

Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message. This is a marriage that can end gracefully and it should. Melo is a HOF player. He came and took the blame (and the shots). Melo isnt a bum. He IS a bad fit on a young developing team. Why? You know why. Everyone knows why. Having Melo hold the ball, struggle on D as he continues to age and slow and take 20+ shots a game is doing nothing to aid the development on anyone on this roster. That time as simply passed. The young players should be taking those shots hit or miss. The young guy should be playing better defense, and if they dont thats why they are getting the minutes.. to learn and be evaluated by the FO.

I can see that many's desire to jettison Melo rubs you the wrong way, but you speak of him like he's the 54 win Melo and its just been a couple tough years. That player has been gone for awhile and his game has been in steady decline, regardless of who his teammates are.

Does winning 38 games with Melo make sense vs. winning 32 games without him? Do those 6 wins help us? I dont see how they do. What would help us is seeing Dotson for 50+ games and seeing what he's got. Or Kuz.

Melo actually has some upside for the team that gets him. He will be better than he was with the Knicks. Thats more human nature than anything else. Is he bringing leadership and intangibles we need to hang onto? I hope so! I really do (if he's around in the fall).

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knickoftime
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9/8/2017  4:36 PM
fishmike wrote:Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message.

I agree with most everything that you said obviously, since I wrote much of it in my own reply.

Don't agree with us though. Waiving him means he gets all his money, and goes to Houston, where he wants to go. It's a win-win for him. Knicks would be doing him a favor.

No Houston doesn't get his bird rights, but I don't think the fact that the knicks aren't giving him a win-win-win would be viewed negatively.

newyorknewyork
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9/8/2017  5:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/8/2017  5:14 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message.

I agree with most everything that you said obviously, since I wrote much of it in my own reply.

Don't agree with us though. Waiving him means he gets all his money, and goes to Houston, where he wants to go. It's a win-win for him. Knicks would be doing him a favor.

No Houston doesn't get his bird rights, but I don't think the fact that the knicks aren't giving him a win-win-win would be viewed negatively.

If he gets waived a team could claim him off waivers correct? Not saying that's what should be done. Just looming for info.

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Knickoftime
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9/8/2017  5:23 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
fishmike wrote:Personally I think waiving him is a terrible idea on 100 levels, starting with the fact that its simply stupid. We all know he's liked around the league, a big cheese in the player's association. Bad message.

I agree with most everything that you said obviously, since I wrote much of it in my own reply.

Don't agree with us though. Waiving him means he gets all his money, and goes to Houston, where he wants to go. It's a win-win for him. Knicks would be doing him a favor.

No Houston doesn't get his bird rights, but I don't think the fact that the knicks aren't giving him a win-win-win would be viewed negatively.

If he gets waived a team could claim him off waivers correct? Not saying that's what should be done. Just looming for info.

Yes.

He would be available to the teams with $26m in cap space to spare and don't mind spending it on a disgruntled player.

Imagine tanking

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