Jmpasq wrote:The problem is the Knicks din't have their 2016 draft pick so they lost one year of adding to their core with Porzingis. I believe the best way to build your team if you can't sign star FA's is to try to get 5 or 6 first round picks in a 3 year span. I just don't see how the Knicks will be able to build a contender around Porzingis unless we get our number 1 guy through the 2018 draft. Adding him through FA is out because we spent our wad on Noah and Hardaway jr.

which is why the time will come to trade anyone of our young guys and a draft pick. The idea this season is to build your role players value by focusing on winning and being held accountable, that way they become tradable assets and not liabilities.

BY not acquiring a better pg this off season as the #1 priority over THJ, is a testament to how mills wants to build a team (sign guards session and baker who can't shoot). Without leadership, your going to struggle, hands down.

If frank turns out to be a starter from out the gate, I'll be tooting mills horn like a cheer leader, if he turns into a major project, I'll be bashing mills like a unruly step child.

Our current strategy of becoming a young team is not a good one, it's a incomplete one, it only addresses 1/5 of what it takes. It looks like he wants to use youth and tanking for draft picks as a way to lower the bar and keep is job.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is the Knicks din't have their 2016 draft pick so they lost one year of adding to their core with Porzingis. I believe the best way to build your team if you can't sign star FA's is to try to get 5 or 6 first round picks in a 3 year span. I just don't see how the Knicks will be able to build a contender around Porzingis unless we get our number 1 guy through the 2018 draft. Adding him through FA is out because we spent our wad on Noah and Hardaway jr.

How many high lottery choices did Spurs have to build around Timmy?

You desire to trade KP is lunacy. I would tune out that voice, its not sane. Where was Willy drafted? No.. trading KP and tanking makes no sense. Commit to drafting and developing players. You look at the long sustained winning in the league and its almost always supplemented by quality players in the draft, often selected well out of the lottery. Like the whole Spurs roster.

You need player to pop. Look how good Ariza has been over the years. Dotson is a guy I am really high on to have nice potential for that type of high end role player you surround your big guns with.

Gudris wrote:it is impossible to tank and develop players at the same time

This. Mills spelled it out in the blog. The #1 thing is developing the players here.

I don't think you are answering the question and neither did mills, which is really. Can you develop players in a losing atmosphere, and if your losing, that would have to mean your developing losing habits RIGHT?

I have heard so many great coaches state, when your young talent becomes immune to losing, and losing doesn't hurt, and food still taste the same after a loss, you can still go party up after a loss, it's over.

Demarcus Cousins is perfect example of that.

We could do this all day.

Losing habits? What are winning habits? And when does talent and experience come into play? There is such a thing as a process no? If the Knicks were playing hard but losing because they simply lack the talent and experience to be a +.500 team how would you tell the difference?

What are you basing you "losing habits" on? Do tell.

Demarcus Cousins is a perfect example of drafting a talented player with a HUGE reputation for being head case. Guess what? He's as big a pain in the NBA as he was in college, only there are 3x the number of games and coverage. What else ya got?

knicks1248 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is the Knicks din't have their 2016 draft pick so they lost one year of adding to their core with Porzingis. I believe the best way to build your team if you can't sign star FA's is to try to get 5 or 6 first round picks in a 3 year span. I just don't see how the Knicks will be able to build a contender around Porzingis unless we get our number 1 guy through the 2018 draft. Adding him through FA is out because we spent our wad on Noah and Hardaway jr.

which is why the time will come to trade anyone of our young guys and a draft pick. The idea this season is to build your role players value by focusing on winning and being held accountable, that way they become tradable assets and not liabilities.

BY not acquiring a better pg this off season as the #1 priority over THJ, is a testament to how mills wants to build a team (sign guards session and baker who can't shoot). Without leadership, your going to struggle, hands down.

If frank turns out to be a starter from out the gate, I'll be tooting mills horn like a cheer leader, if he turns into a major project, I'll be bashing mills like a unruly step child.

Our current strategy of becoming a young team is not a good one, it's a incomplete one, it only addresses 1/5 of what it takes. It looks like he wants to use youth and tanking for draft picks as a way to lower the bar and keep is job.

JMPASQ

Signing Hardaway Jr was like keeping their 2013 first rounder. Willy has lottery talent and was like having a 2016 pick. I already laid out how the Knicks can add multiple quality players to build up around or with KP going forward.

Knicks1248

Realistic PG options were Hill 31, Rondo 31, Collison 29. Paul, Teague, Holiday weren't realistic PG options. Not saying you said that just breaking down our realistic options for PG. Mills could have signed nobody then you would have a stronger case for him attempting to tank. Him signing Hardaway was him looking at a 24 yr old who had a breakout 2nd half of the season. Who the Knicks drafted and was familiar with as a person. In 3 years Hardaway will be in his prime and the Knicks can still land a PG in the future if need be. 6 yrs he could still be on the Knicks while all the realistic PG options would be retired. Hill who is a good player but is often hit with injury bug which will get worse as he enters the ages of 31-33 yet will collect 20 mil per season. Rondo will be a FA again next season is also 31 with injury history who hasn't played a full season since 09-10. Has clashed with many coaches and has a dominant personality that if it doesn't click with KP could create more "dysfunction". Collison is an average player.

Sessions, Baker, Hardaway jr, Frank I believe have all been identified as coach friendly players that JH will be able to get what he wants out of them. Avoiding "dysfunction". Hardaway jr at 24 was added talent for the now while also a core piece for the future.

Mills also signed 29 yr old Beasley over some UDFA to develop with youth movement. So again I don't believe tanking is the goal. Building a team piece by piece is. While preserving assets and cap space in order to add more talent in the future.

Knickoftime wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is the Knicks din't have their 2016 draft pick so they lost one year of adding to their core with Porzingis. I believe the best way to build your team if you can't sign star FA's is to try to get 5 or 6 first round picks in a 3 year span. I just don't see how the Knicks will be able to build a contender around Porzingis unless we get our number 1 guy through the 2018 draft. Adding him through FA is out because we spent our wad on Noah and Hardaway jr.

How many high lottery choices did Spurs have to build around Timmy?

You desire to trade KP is lunacy. I would tune out that voice, its not sane. Where was Willy drafted? No.. trading KP and tanking makes no sense. Commit to drafting and developing players. You look at the long sustained winning in the league and its almost always supplemented by quality players in the draft, often selected well out of the lottery. Like the whole Spurs roster.

You need player to pop. Look how good Ariza has been over the years. Dotson is a guy I am really high on to have nice potential for that type of high end role player you surround your big guns with.

Gudris wrote:it is impossible to tank and develop players at the same time

This. Mills spelled it out in the blog. The #1 thing is developing the players here.

I don't think you are answering the question and neither did mills, which is really. Can you develop players in a losing atmosphere, and if your losing, that would have to mean your developing losing habits RIGHT?

I have heard so many great coaches state, when your young talent becomes immune to losing, and losing doesn't hurt, and food still taste the same after a loss, you can still go party up after a loss, it's over.

Okay, here are some questions, how about answering them?

Anthony Davis has won, 27, 34, 45, 30 and 34 games. Took a wrong turn there in year 4. He damaged goods? Or would you take him on the Knicks?

Wiggins has won, 16, 29, 31. Towns 29, and 31. Damaged goods? Or would you take them on the Knicks?

Emiid has been witness and occasional participant to 18, 10 and 28 wins. Is his career beyond saving?

Markelle Fultz went 9-22 his one NCAA season. Do you think NBA teams cared?

They are clearly suffering from the same thing kP is suffering from, bad habits, new coaches yr after yr, new roster, too young, no leadership, that's why it takes forever, then they get traded, or you bring in better talent(not through the draft, but trades)..

why the hell you think wiggins got traded, Cleveland knew it would take yrs for irving, Bennett and wiggins to start winning

Your player will be always be product of his environment at a young age.

knicks1248 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is the Knicks din't have their 2016 draft pick so they lost one year of adding to their core with Porzingis. I believe the best way to build your team if you can't sign star FA's is to try to get 5 or 6 first round picks in a 3 year span. I just don't see how the Knicks will be able to build a contender around Porzingis unless we get our number 1 guy through the 2018 draft. Adding him through FA is out because we spent our wad on Noah and Hardaway jr.

How many high lottery choices did Spurs have to build around Timmy?

You desire to trade KP is lunacy. I would tune out that voice, its not sane. Where was Willy drafted? No.. trading KP and tanking makes no sense. Commit to drafting and developing players. You look at the long sustained winning in the league and its almost always supplemented by quality players in the draft, often selected well out of the lottery. Like the whole Spurs roster.

You need player to pop. Look how good Ariza has been over the years. Dotson is a guy I am really high on to have nice potential for that type of high end role player you surround your big guns with.

Gudris wrote:it is impossible to tank and develop players at the same time

This. Mills spelled it out in the blog. The #1 thing is developing the players here.

I don't think you are answering the question and neither did mills, which is really. Can you develop players in a losing atmosphere, and if your losing, that would have to mean your developing losing habits RIGHT?

I have heard so many great coaches state, when your young talent becomes immune to losing, and losing doesn't hurt, and food still taste the same after a loss, you can still go party up after a loss, it's over.

Okay, here are some questions, how about answering them?

Anthony Davis has won, 27, 34, 45, 30 and 34 games. Took a wrong turn there in year 4. He damaged goods? Or would you take him on the Knicks?

Wiggins has won, 16, 29, 31. Towns 29, and 31. Damaged goods? Or would you take them on the Knicks?

Emiid has been witness and occasional participant to 18, 10 and 28 wins. Is his career beyond saving?

Markelle Fultz went 9-22 his one NCAA season. Do you think NBA teams cared?

They are clearly suffering from the same thing kP is suffering from, bad habits, new coaches yr after yr, new roster, too young, no leadership, that's why it takes forever, then they get traded, or you bring in better talent(not through the draft, but trades)..

why the hell you think wiggins got traded, Cleveland knew it would take yrs for irving, Bennett and wiggins to start winning

Your player will be always be product of his environment at a young age.

So Davis, Wiggins, Towns and Emiid's 'values' have been harmed, yes or no?

Knickoftime wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

KEEPCAMBYNY wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Tanking? We talkin bout tanking? Tanking?

How's Philly doing? Like Simmons last season? How's those thirty whole Embid games you got to see? Looking good? MCW is heading to China now, right? He was your first round pg of the great 5 year plan...

This:

GustavBahler wrote:We arent going to lose our way into a ring, no matter how hard we try.

Philly's first round lotto picks missed an enormous amount of games over several years, entire seasons, which led to more high draft picks. Do we go that route as well? "The process" was cashing in on players who couldn't stay healthy. I doubt that was Hinkie's master plan.

We have our own picks, not all top of the lottery. Doesn't mean they arent good enough to try and build around. Tanking will drive good players away.

Again, mostly irrelevant as no one is advocating they lose any games on purpose.

Cmon man, take off the training wheels. Why didn't you comment on the biggest move of the offseason? What were you afraid of?

Flagging me for taking this conversation (along with others) in a slightly different direction is just filler, and thats all I get from you. Makes for very boring conversation.

That might be why you're here, but it sure as hell isnt why I am. This happens all the time, you're the only one it really seems to bother. You've been harping on this for days.

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:The problem is the Knicks din't have their 2016 draft pick so they lost one year of adding to their core with Porzingis. I believe the best way to build your team if you can't sign star FA's is to try to get 5 or 6 first round picks in a 3 year span. I just don't see how the Knicks will be able to build a contender around Porzingis unless we get our number 1 guy through the 2018 draft. Adding him through FA is out because we spent our wad on Noah and Hardaway jr.

How many high lottery choices did Spurs have to build around Timmy?

You desire to trade KP is lunacy. I would tune out that voice, its not sane. Where was Willy drafted? No.. trading KP and tanking makes no sense. Commit to drafting and developing players. You look at the long sustained winning in the league and its almost always supplemented by quality players in the draft, often selected well out of the lottery. Like the whole Spurs roster.

You need player to pop. Look how good Ariza has been over the years. Dotson is a guy I am really high on to have nice potential for that type of high end role player you surround your big guns with.

Gudris wrote:it is impossible to tank and develop players at the same time

This. Mills spelled it out in the blog. The #1 thing is developing the players here.

I don't think you are answering the question and neither did mills, which is really. Can you develop players in a losing atmosphere, and if your losing, that would have to mean your developing losing habits RIGHT?

I have heard so many great coaches state, when your young talent becomes immune to losing, and losing doesn't hurt, and food still taste the same after a loss, you can still go party up after a loss, it's over.

Demarcus Cousins is perfect example of that.

How about Steph Curry? How about Kevin Durant? Chauncy Billups? How about Paul Pierce? Did Kevin Garnett turn out ok?

We could do this all day.

Losing habits? What are winning habits? And when does talent and experience come into play? There is such a thing as a process no? If the Knicks were playing hard but losing because they simply lack the talent and experience to be a +.500 team how would you tell the difference?

What are you basing you "losing habits" on? Do tell.

Demarcus Cousins is a perfect example of drafting a talented player with a HUGE reputation for being head case. Guess what? He's as big a pain in the NBA as he was in college, only there are 3x the number of games and coverage. What else ya got?

im glad you brought those names up, because you will notice that aside from pp and steph, (and if Kd did not join GS, Cleveland would have gotten another ring) the rest won rings on teams that did not draft them...not to mention those guys were still making the playoffs playing avg ball.

We lost soooooooo many games last yr in the last few minutes of a game, failing to execute and committing the same foolish defensive lapses, bad shots, turnovers, and just deer in the headlights and utter confusions. Those are losing habits. Did you forget that we couldn't not win 2 games in a row for 4 months, that had never happen in the history of the nba.

The talent (at best) on the knicks is .500 or slightly above, and thats with lance and NOAH contributing consistently(which they didn't), and JH having a system that benefits his roster defensively and offensively (which he didn't).

NOW to comeback the very next yr with 85% of the same roster and have a tank type season with similar numbers across the board, would you define that as GOOD DEVELOPMENT?

IMO the roster should be improved over last season. Better defense on the perimeter is a starting point. More 3pt shooters. I view the returning players as a good thing for some continuity. There should also be some internal growth from our young returning players.

The TYPE of players we have are more Team Oriented and that should help to produce better execution than last season. All in all this is only incremental progress but that isn't a bad thing.

The only thing up in the air is the Melo situation. Hopefully Perry can make better deals than the last few regimes.

GustavBahler wrote:So when THJ was signed, I thought you had the perfect opportunity to drop some knowledge. But nothing. Crickets.

Again, if doesn't matter to you that you made that up, it won't matter to you that you're wrong. People who make things up don't care if they're right or wrong.

Nothing false about the fact that these exchanges never have to do with hoops. I love a good debate, but your coming at me with minutia. Its boring, and I would appreciate it if you would wait until you want to talk about something more interesting.

Again, you're the only one it really seems to bother. You made your point, let it go.

I'm not hoops, but you keep posting about me.

The Knicks tanking or not is hoops, and no one here has argued they should. You need to work on getting that hoops argument right in your head.

Knickoftime wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Tanking? We talkin bout tanking? Tanking?

How's Philly doing? Like Simmons last season? How's those thirty whole Embid games you got to see? Looking good? MCW is heading to China now, right? He was your first round pg of the great 5 year plan...

This:

GustavBahler wrote:We arent going to lose our way into a ring, no matter how hard we try.

This is rhetorical running in place.

Anyone can easily show teams that went all in on free agency and teams that have taken a more balanced approach with nothing to show for it as well.

That fact is the last 40 years show in any given year, 22-28 teams don't have a shot, and the teams that do generally hang around for a while.

Naming a team that didn't (yet) succeed with the method you oppose does nothing to advance any argument and attempting it undermines yours.

Ah yes, yet another Captain of the "everyone knows" approach to argumentation. Mr. True Scotsman, we love you.

Premise: Hinkie advocated gleefully and baldfacedly tanking games as a part of the process? Fact? Yes or No?
Premise: The Sixers suhuck Donkeykong for years and no one anywhere in or around Philly thinks they were trying to win games. The fanbase (of which I'm one Knicks fan in the middle of 4000 Philly-area coworkers) all agree and swallowed the whole jug of tank-aid as they happily looked forward to draft day. Each and every year.

The argument isn't that other approaches work or do not work. Explain why tanking is a valid proposal for the Knicks. Or why it's even worth being a fan of.

You continually say the Knicks are a lottery team. So, in essence, you've already tanked as a fan. Spare everyone the tedious exercises in logic circles and just don't bother watching or posting here unless you have some Briggsian insights to the NCAA or Euroleague. Then you can save a lot of time and energy and just say hello to everyone next June.

Or you can log back in during April and explain how games can be "strategically managed" into allowing for better chances at a higher draft selection.