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Imagine tanking
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knicks1248
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9/6/2017  3:19 PM
Tanking For a few yrs, and the Bold names were the guys we picked, would we be any closer to contending after 4 seasons..

Aside from TOWNS, KP, AND MAYBE SIMMONS(JURY STILL OUT) these are all decent role players that you could trade for or wait until they become FA

That's why I can never understand the tanking logic for a role player

2013 top 6

Bennett
olapido
potter
zeller
len
noel

2014

wiggens
embiid
parker
Gordon
exum
smart

2015

towns
russel
okafor
kp
hezonja
cauley stein

2016

simmons
ingram
j brown
dragon bender
dunn
heild

ES
AUTOADVERT
meloshouldgo
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9/6/2017  3:23 PM
Good morning sunshine!!!! 😀
The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
BRIGGS
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9/6/2017  3:26 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Tanking For a few yrs, and the Bold names were the guys we picked, would we be any closer to contending after 4 seasons..

Aside from TOWNS, KP, AND MAYBE SIMMONS(JURY STILL OUT) these are all decent role players that you could trade for or wait until they become FA

That's why I can never understand the tanking logic for a role player

2013 top 6

Bennett
olapido
potter
zeller
len
noel

2014

wiggens
embiid
parker
Gordon
exum
smart

2015

towns
russel
okafor
kp
hezonja
cauley stein

2016

simmons
ingram
j brown
dragon bender
dunn
heild


Durant Lebron Harden Wall etc..--most of the really great players are high picks. You need to execute with the pick. Nothing guaranteed. I dont think the Knicks will be that bad now--I think with the extra fire power with THJ and Beasley that our+- increased just enough to get us on the fringe of playoffs or back end lottery---32-38 wins. So we might be in no mans land anyway

Knixkik
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9/6/2017  3:34 PM
Tanking is a bad trend that started not too long ago. No team has successfully "tanked" their way into a contender to date. The best option is always going to be to try and compete, but not trade any picks. While landing a once in generation talent like a Lebron or Anthony Davis is great, it doesn't happen that often, and you can also find the next Giannis, Kawhi, etc later in the first round, Jimmy Butler in the late first, or Jokic in the 2nd round. Finding a star outside of the top 10 happens nearly every year.
Bonn1997
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9/6/2017  3:34 PM
Is there any approach that never fails?
awe1028
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9/6/2017  4:29 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Tanking For a few yrs, and the Bold names were the guys we picked, would we be any closer to contending after 4 seasons..

Aside from TOWNS, KP, AND MAYBE SIMMONS(JURY STILL OUT) these are all decent role players that you could trade for or wait until they become FA

That's why I can never understand the tanking logic for a role player

2013 top 6

Bennett
olapido
potter
zeller
len
noel

2014

wiggens
embiid
parker
Gordon
exum
smart

2015

towns
russel
okafor
kp
hezonja
cauley stein

2016

simmons
ingram
j brown
dragon bender
dunn
heild

Imagine not building through the draft and these were the guys the Knicks signed or traded for instead: Noah (70+ Million), CLee (50+ Million)and DRose (20+ Million. You don't have to imagine because that's exactly what the Knicks did and are they any closer to contending?

An argument could be made that the Knicks are actually closer to contending than they otherwise would be because though Phil was foolish to acquire those bloated contracts he was smart enough to simultaneously keep the picks so the rebuild continue.

Regarding your comment about role players and the draft you seemed to have forgotten Steph, Klay Draymond, KD, Lebron, Kyrie, Westbrook, Harden Blake Griffin.... Have you forgotten that we missed out on Steph by one pick and ended up with the immortal Jordan Hill because we won some meaningless games in 2009.

That's why I can never understand advocating not building through the draft in order to bring in bloated budget and cap killing contracts.

knicks1248
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9/6/2017  4:45 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Is there any approach that never fails?

IF You go all in for FA like walsh, the FA you want may go elsewhere

IF you trade away all your assets for a star like melo, you won't have the proper role players or another star to compliment him

If you tank you have a strong possibility drafting a flop.

In order for us to get better sooner than later, one of our young boys and a future pick will need to be traded for a proven star in his mid to upper 20's.

Like briggs said, this roster is in no mans land, to good to get a high pick, and to bad to make more than a 8th seed. It's a horrible place to be in, because you don't know weather to go all in for a tank, or try to do it through FA

ES
knicks1248
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9/6/2017  5:19 PM
awe1028 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Tanking For a few yrs, and the Bold names were the guys we picked, would we be any closer to contending after 4 seasons..

Aside from TOWNS, KP, AND MAYBE SIMMONS(JURY STILL OUT) these are all decent role players that you could trade for or wait until they become FA

That's why I can never understand the tanking logic for a role player

2013 top 6

Bennett
olapido
potter
zeller
len
noel

2014

wiggens
embiid
parker
Gordon
exum
smart

2015

towns
russel
okafor
kp
hezonja
cauley stein

2016

simmons
ingram
j brown
dragon bender
dunn
heild

Imagine not building through the draft and these were the guys the Knicks signed or traded for instead: Noah (70+ Million), CLee (50+ Million)and DRose (20+ Million. You don't have to imagine because that's exactly what the Knicks did and are they any closer to contending?

An argument could be made that the Knicks are actually closer to contending than they otherwise would be because though Phil was foolish to acquire those bloated contracts he was smart enough to simultaneously keep the picks so the rebuild continue.

Regarding your comment about role players and the draft you seemed to have forgotten Steph, Klay Draymond, KD, Lebron, Kyrie, Westbrook, Harden Blake Griffin.... Have you forgotten that we missed out on Steph by one pick and ended up with the immortal Jordan Hill because we won some meaningless games in 2009.

That's why I can never understand advocating not building through the draft in order to bring in bloated budget and cap killing contracts.


wasn't kp picked higher then curry and Kla,y a lower pick than frank

if we have frank, willy, kp and Kuz and still suck, are we going to keep hoping to find that curry/labron, harden in the draft every yr..there's gotta be a better way or a better strategy

ES
GustavBahler
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9/6/2017  6:06 PM
Brilliant idea! We can spend the next 3 years tanking, KP/ Willy, anyone worth their salt, will be running for the door when their contract is up, because they want to contend.

But what about the Knicks getting amazing draft picks that will fall into our lap? What about the fact that we have drafted below where we were supposed to pick 2 years in a row? I guess we can sort that out while the Knicks wait for 3-4 more years for those picks to develop.

Sure, lets kick the can down the road for another 5-6 years, then we'll be really ready. SMDH.

F losing, I want to see the Knicks compete again. I want a championship as much as anyone. Was in grammar school the last time they won. I loved the late 80s and early 90s Knicks, and they didnt win a damned thing, outside a conference championship.

We arent going to lose our way into a ring, no matter how hard we try.

newyorknewyork
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9/6/2017  6:10 PM
I don't believe the Knicks are in tank mode #1. They are more in trying to get something for Carmelo before he leaves for nothing mode. If no-brainer deals come along I doubt they are going to turn them down because they want to tank. All the Knicks have done have been try to acquire players that fit the same age range to grow together for the long term. There have been no deals that we know of that have been presented that made the Knicks a stable playoff team.

Wiggins was able to land Cleveland Kevin Love straight up. Top 5 picks hold value for stud players. Cavs could have moved the #1 pick for a number of quality players or traded down got a vet and another draft pick if they chose.

Welpee
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9/6/2017  6:26 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Is there any approach that never fails?
No, but I bet there are more examples of great teams being built via sound trades and smart draft decisions (regardless of where the pick fell) than teams who go into the season planning to tank.
Knickoftime
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9/6/2017  7:38 PM
Knixkik wrote:While landing a once in generation talent like a Lebron or Anthony Davis is great, it doesn't happen that often, and you can also find the next Giannis, Kawhi, etc later in the first round, Jimmy Butler in the late first, or Jokic in the 2nd round. Finding a star outside of the top 10 happens nearly every year.

All of these things are true by themselves, but you're still misrepresenting the facts.

This seems to suggest the draft is a total crapshoot.

The facts are your chances of getting a star is GREATLY enhanced the higher you select.

That's just math.

Just because there are stars that have been picked later does not change this math.

nixluva
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9/6/2017  7:50 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/6/2017  7:51 PM
knicks1248 wrote:wasn't kp picked higher then curry and Kla,y a lower pick than frank

if we have frank, willy, kp and Kuz and still suck, are we going to keep hoping to find that curry/labron, harden in the draft every yr..there's gotta be a better way or a better strategy


This is really a warped way of looking at this. Curry, Klay had to go thru a development process!!! You can't just go from being bad enough to draft high picks to immediately winning. Still the way that Phil/Mills/Gaines managed this it's possible that things will start to take off this season.

2015
Kristaps Porzingis
Jerian Grant
Willy Hernangomez

2017
Frank Ntilikina
Damyean Dotson
Ognjen Jaramaz

Of course Phil/Mills/Gaines also added UDFA's along the way but aside from the very first draft the last 2 seem to have some very good prospects. This is still the start of the process and not the end so I don't get the "Knicks Suck" aspect of your take. You have to allow some time for the young draft picks to develop. Heck this year's draft picks HAVEN'T EVEN PLAYED YET!!!

Knickoftime
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9/6/2017  8:01 PM
Welpee wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Is there any approach that never fails?
No, but I bet there are more examples of great teams being built via sound trades and smart draft decisions (regardless of where the pick fell) than teams who go into the season planning to tank.

This is the internet.

There is no reason to be uncertain.

Knickoftime
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9/6/2017  8:09 PM
GustavBahler wrote:F losing, I want to see the Knicks compete again.

You wanting the Knicks to win, and the Knicks being in position to win have no relationship to one another.

Best-case, long-odds scenario is the Knicks are first round fodder.

Overwhelmingly the odds favor a another lottery selection.

The argument is mostly between people who want to mathematically enhance the Knicks odds of getting a difference maker in the draft, and those who think there is some significant long-term benefit to going from 31 wins to a 37 give or take a couple.

GustavBahler
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9/6/2017  8:20 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:F losing, I want to see the Knicks compete again.

You wanting the Knicks to win, and the Knicks being in position to win have no relationship to one another.

Best-case, long-odds scenario is the Knicks are first round fodder.

Overwhelmingly the odds favor a another lottery selection.

The argument is mostly between people who want to mathematically enhance the Knicks odds of getting a difference maker in the draft, and those who think there is some significant long-term benefit to going from 31 wins to a 37 give or take a couple.

The topic at hand is the Knicks intentionally tanking, losing, for the next few years to acquire draft picks. Thats what my comment was in reference to. You are talking about something entirely different.

Knickoftime
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9/6/2017  8:21 PM
Magic
Bird
Jordan
Thomas
Olajuwon
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Lebron
Curry (Green)

As folks are contemplating the best 'method' to build an NBA champion, let's not forget these 10 players have more or less dominated the last 37 years.

You need a transcendent superstar (sometimes 2) is what history teaches us.

Knickoftime
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9/6/2017  8:26 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:F losing, I want to see the Knicks compete again.

You wanting the Knicks to win, and the Knicks being in position to win have no relationship to one another.

Best-case, long-odds scenario is the Knicks are first round fodder.

Overwhelmingly the odds favor a another lottery selection.

The argument is mostly between people who want to mathematically enhance the Knicks odds of getting a difference maker in the draft, and those who think there is some significant long-term benefit to going from 31 wins to a 37 give or take a couple.

The topic at hand is the Knicks intentionally tanking, losing, for the next few years to acquire draft picks. Thats what my comment was in reference to. You are talking about something entirely different.

Not really.

Get rid of Melo (we take back a good younger player if offered), let nature take its course.

I don't believe anyone here advocates manipulating the roster any further than that in order to lose.

Hell, the so-called 'tankers' are probably more prepared to let Ntilikina play a lot than the 'competers' are.

jrodmc
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9/6/2017  8:27 PM
Tanking? We talkin bout tanking? Tanking?

How's Philly doing? Like Simmons last season? How's those thirty whole Embid games you got to see? Looking good? MCW is heading to China now, right? He was your first round pg of the great 5 year plan...


This:

GustavBahler wrote:We arent going to lose our way into a ring, no matter how hard we try.
You guys spend a lot of time commenting on the internet?
GustavBahler
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9/6/2017  8:37 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:F losing, I want to see the Knicks compete again.

You wanting the Knicks to win, and the Knicks being in position to win have no relationship to one another.

Best-case, long-odds scenario is the Knicks are first round fodder.

Overwhelmingly the odds favor a another lottery selection.

The argument is mostly between people who want to mathematically enhance the Knicks odds of getting a difference maker in the draft, and those who think there is some significant long-term benefit to going from 31 wins to a 37 give or take a couple.

The topic at hand is the Knicks intentionally tanking, losing, for the next few years to acquire draft picks. Thats what my comment was in reference to. You are talking about something entirely different.

Not really.

Get rid of Melo (we take back a good younger player if offered), let nature take its course.

I don't believe anyone here advocates manipulating the roster any further than that in order to lose.

Hell, the so-called 'tankers' are probably more prepared to let Ntilikina play a lot than the 'competers' are.

All you are saying is that the Knicks will be so bad next season that tanking wont make much of a difference. The thread is about the benefits of tanking for the next few years, not just next season

Some posters here (not 1248) believe we can tank our way to prosperity. F that, I want to see the Knicks win.

Imagine tanking

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