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Vecsey: Porzingis Skipped Exit Meeting Due To Feud With Hornacek
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CrushAlot
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8/30/2017  10:21 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:The trolls are singing a different tune now, sounds like a new primary target is being acquired. Poor Jeff - his days as coach are numbered. Wait till every tweet on the internet about why he shouldn't have yelled at KP becomes a new thread. Same **** different target. The script for 2017-18 season is all but set. It will be Jeff's fault that Melo/THJR keep shooting and the offense doesn't flow through KP, or rather the offense doesn't flow,period. To be fai they will also blame the rookie - fire Jeff/Trade Frank. KP will let Dolan know its either him or the coach...he is learning from the best coach killer of all time.

No matter how many Coaches, GMs and Presidents are recycled through the front office for some completely "unknown" reason the dysfunction will continue.


I am curious how you would recommend this situation be handled. Do you trade KP? Do you tell him to man up, vets like Rose and Melo are treated differently because of who they are and their deficiencies and behaviors are not his concern? Do you fire Jeff for not confronting Melo and Rose for their poor play, Rose's AWOL, locker room issues etc. Do you wait to see if things improve because KP's deal isn't up yet?
In my opinion a new gm/pres should hire his own coach that shares his vision. Grunwald's coach was Woodson, Phil's coach was Kerr and the coach that shared his vision last year was Rambis. I think Mills ends up with his own coach after this season but the smart move probably was to bring in a new coach going forward after all the sh@t that went on last year. That isnt on KP. You could make the argument that Jeff didn't get a fair shot last year but he was present for whatever went on.
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
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GustavBahler
Posts: 32321
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Member: #3186

8/30/2017  10:41 PM
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:Popovich

SAN ANTONIO — Gregg Popovich arrived at Tim Duncan's jersey retirement ceremony well prepared. In his suit coat pocket were several tissues, folded neatly, just in case.

The San Antonio Spurs coach nearly needed them when he expressed 20 years' worth of gratitude for what he understands was the singular trait that made Duncan one of the greatest leaders in the history of basketball.

Popovich coaches hard, from the top of the roster to the bottom. And it helps to have a certain kind of team leader when you demand perfection, often at full volume.

In David Robinson, he had a fellow military academy graduate who understood command structure. In Duncan, he discovered a humble superstar, without ego or hint of attitude, willing to be an example for every teammate.


Trying to explain this to a sellout crowd at the Sunday ceremony at the AT&T Center that followed the Spurs' 113-100 win over the New Orleans Pelicans nearly brought Popovich's emotions to the surface.

"If your superstar can take a little hit now and then, everybody else can shut the hell up and fall in line," Popovich said, and then it was clear he felt his throat starting to tighten. He paused, a long delay, then stamped his foot.


Turning to look directly at Duncan, Popovich finally was able to continue.

"So, thank you for letting me coach you, Timmy," Popovich said. "I'm really thankful because you allowed me to coach the team."

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2682681-gregg-popovich-and-spurs-stars-recall-tim-duncans-exemplary-career.amp.html

You are missing the point. The only superstar on that team last season was former MVP Rose, and he was playing like there wasnt anyone else on the team most of the time. Popovich would never have become the coach he became, earn respect not just nationally but internationally, if he had singled out Duncan, and let Tony Parker play the way Rose did. Would never have happened. Completely different situation

I believe if Hornacek had established himself as a coach who doesnt take any BS on the court from ANY player, Porzingis would have taken the heat like everyone else.


I think you are right. Bondy and now Vescey have written about this happening.

In the end KP has to learn how to accept hard coaching of HIM and not be looking at how anyone else is coached as if this is F'n Kindergarten or Peewee League where everyone gets a participation trophy!!! Put your damn big boy pants and GO HARDER. WTF is wrong with people? Since when do we have to accept softness or sensitivity from players? Oakley is face palming right now over this kind of BS!

If someone treated you like that at your job (nevermind the pay) you saw that kind of double standard, doubt you would appreciate that kind of a pep talk.

First off there's no comparison between an office and sports. There's almost a military approach in sports where like a Sergeant might break a soldier down to build him up as a fierce fighter. Football coaches are notorious for being hard on players.

Pushing KP is probably necessary. KP has to learn just how hard he has to play as a Big in this league. I have no problem with this. KP needs to go workout with Oakley and see what he thinks.

Im sure some folks in Iraq and Afghanistan would take issue with that remark. Of course they compare, its a multi-billion dollar business, these athletes are corporations unto themselves. Its very much work, and millions of people are watching.

As a fan, I have no problem with Hornacek pushing KP, probably needs it. But if you are singling out a player, and letting others get away with worse, actual stars, then it doesnt come off as "tough love" comes off as being an *******

Whatever! I come from a Military and Police Family. I really don't think it's acceptable to make excuses for KP by bringing up DRose. This is about KP and how he handles coaching and being challenged. I don't wanna hear any Whining or crying what about so and so! No MF what about YOU manning up and handling your business? You wanna be great or not! Get your ass in gear and be a leader.

Dont care, no one is shooting at them, trying to blow them up. Its closer to a regular paycheck than it is to actual combat. Get a grip.

Suddenly culture change isnt so important. Keeping future stars who will be FAs on a team already with the worst rep in the league isn't so important. Just KP "manning up" and leading this **** show all by himself.

KP cant lead while he's bending over. Maybe you can, IDK. Thats not leadership to me. He held to his convictions, Porzingis is still here. Phil is in Montana. Sounds like a leader to me.

You get a grip! Contact sports is more close to the mentality of military than Office work unless you think people are throwing bows and posting up at the water cooler. You can't be serious with this take.

I don't get you at all. You tried to push this as a fairness issue rather than one of personal responsibility. KP needs to man up and accept the challenge and not wuss out pointing to others not getting as much attention. As I said KP needs to worry about his own effort level and be an example for others to follow. Don't remember having to make excuses for Oakley or Ewing. Why are we going to allow KP to play soft?

No, they post up on the weekend, for fun, and get the same injuries, only worse because they're older.

This notion of blind loyalty to a team/employer who is clearly disrespecting you by giving other players carte blanche, no matter how it affects the team, I dont get myself. Its not family or country, its work.

Personal responsibility at work only means something if its applied equally. Why would any player want anything else? The player who is third in touches, shouldnt get most of the heat.

Personal responsibility means nothing if its selectively enforced, by anyone. Thats not a team concept.

All you're doing is obfuscating the real issue. You've selected DRose as an excuse for KP NOT accepting personal responsibility. You're assuming that nothing was said to DRose and that's a valid excuse for KP not manning up to his coaches challenge. It's a WEAK argument because in fact KP is the one that still needed to step up his game regardless of what DRose did or didn't do. KP STILL needed to raise his game. PERIOD. He doesn't have to like it. KP's job is to respond with greater effort.

You're the one who brought in the military, not I. Exactly what was KP's cardinal sin other than blowing off the exit meeting? Was he a selfish ball stopper? Did he play Matador D? Was he a difficult teammate to get along with? Did he embarrass the team off the court, other than a few failed attempts at a booty call? What the hell did he do that has caused some folks to get sand in their nether regions?

You keep repeating "personal responsibility" like a mantra. Porzingis numbers got better, in spite of all the dysfunction. He held up his end of the bargain. Coaching, mgmt, thats another story.

The Military analogy is common in sports. I don't understand why this is even a talking point. Of course it's not literally life and death but many of the concepts of sports originated with mock war and they treat Training Camp like Boot Camp. You know what the F I'm talking about. SMH.

As for why this is an issue if the stories are true, that's because KP decided to skip his Exit Meeting and then cut off communication with his Coach for an extended period. What was KP hoping to achieve with his highly publicized act of defiance? It surely wasn't to resolve his unhappiness and not become a source of controversy and embarrassment. The Manly thing to do would be to go meet with Phil and Jeff and talk it out. You can't explain your way around this fact. KP WAS WRONG!

I know exactly what you are talking about, and in this age of perpetual war, I believe it is in poor taste. I see commentators on TV catch themselves sometimes after they invoke this metaphor because they know that actual men an women are dying overseas in our name, as we speak. Not appropriate anymore, if it ever was. There are some common expressions, but drawing a direct comparison goes too far.

If you are going to claim that blowing off one meeting negates everything. In spite of KP's improvement as a player in a very difficult situation. His more than willingness to admit what he did and didn't do right as a player, to millions of fans, and apparently spending the summer working on it.

If you believe that isn't enough personal responsibility, then you should at least be holding his coach and teammates to the same standard. Certainly Hornacek should hold himself responsible for giving other players a pass for far worse behavior. Like going AWOL during the season, not after it.

As I said, KP earned his paycheck, did Jeff and Rambis? Did Phil? Hell no.

CrushAlot
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8/30/2017  11:00 PM
I read the Berman article but did not see more of the quotes from Vescey in the KNicks Blog article. If true this one puts Jeff in a bad light,
"Willy Hernangomez is Porzingis' best friend on the Knicks," Vescey reported. "Mindlessly, Hornacek got Hernangomez alone one dreadful day and conveyed to him what he should've to Porzingis face-to-face: "Tell your guy to stop playing like a pu--y!"
https://www.sny.tv/knicks/news/kristaps-porzingis-skipped-exit-interview-because-of-jeff-hornacek-not-phil-jackson/251419716
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
nixluva
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8/30/2017  11:27 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:Popovich

SAN ANTONIO — Gregg Popovich arrived at Tim Duncan's jersey retirement ceremony well prepared. In his suit coat pocket were several tissues, folded neatly, just in case.

The San Antonio Spurs coach nearly needed them when he expressed 20 years' worth of gratitude for what he understands was the singular trait that made Duncan one of the greatest leaders in the history of basketball.

Popovich coaches hard, from the top of the roster to the bottom. And it helps to have a certain kind of team leader when you demand perfection, often at full volume.

In David Robinson, he had a fellow military academy graduate who understood command structure. In Duncan, he discovered a humble superstar, without ego or hint of attitude, willing to be an example for every teammate.


Trying to explain this to a sellout crowd at the Sunday ceremony at the AT&T Center that followed the Spurs' 113-100 win over the New Orleans Pelicans nearly brought Popovich's emotions to the surface.

"If your superstar can take a little hit now and then, everybody else can shut the hell up and fall in line," Popovich said, and then it was clear he felt his throat starting to tighten. He paused, a long delay, then stamped his foot.


Turning to look directly at Duncan, Popovich finally was able to continue.

"So, thank you for letting me coach you, Timmy," Popovich said. "I'm really thankful because you allowed me to coach the team."

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2682681-gregg-popovich-and-spurs-stars-recall-tim-duncans-exemplary-career.amp.html

You are missing the point. The only superstar on that team last season was former MVP Rose, and he was playing like there wasnt anyone else on the team most of the time. Popovich would never have become the coach he became, earn respect not just nationally but internationally, if he had singled out Duncan, and let Tony Parker play the way Rose did. Would never have happened. Completely different situation

I believe if Hornacek had established himself as a coach who doesnt take any BS on the court from ANY player, Porzingis would have taken the heat like everyone else.


I think you are right. Bondy and now Vescey have written about this happening.

In the end KP has to learn how to accept hard coaching of HIM and not be looking at how anyone else is coached as if this is F'n Kindergarten or Peewee League where everyone gets a participation trophy!!! Put your damn big boy pants and GO HARDER. WTF is wrong with people? Since when do we have to accept softness or sensitivity from players? Oakley is face palming right now over this kind of BS!

If someone treated you like that at your job (nevermind the pay) you saw that kind of double standard, doubt you would appreciate that kind of a pep talk.

First off there's no comparison between an office and sports. There's almost a military approach in sports where like a Sergeant might break a soldier down to build him up as a fierce fighter. Football coaches are notorious for being hard on players.

Pushing KP is probably necessary. KP has to learn just how hard he has to play as a Big in this league. I have no problem with this. KP needs to go workout with Oakley and see what he thinks.

Im sure some folks in Iraq and Afghanistan would take issue with that remark. Of course they compare, its a multi-billion dollar business, these athletes are corporations unto themselves. Its very much work, and millions of people are watching.

As a fan, I have no problem with Hornacek pushing KP, probably needs it. But if you are singling out a player, and letting others get away with worse, actual stars, then it doesnt come off as "tough love" comes off as being an *******

Whatever! I come from a Military and Police Family. I really don't think it's acceptable to make excuses for KP by bringing up DRose. This is about KP and how he handles coaching and being challenged. I don't wanna hear any Whining or crying what about so and so! No MF what about YOU manning up and handling your business? You wanna be great or not! Get your ass in gear and be a leader.

Dont care, no one is shooting at them, trying to blow them up. Its closer to a regular paycheck than it is to actual combat. Get a grip.

Suddenly culture change isnt so important. Keeping future stars who will be FAs on a team already with the worst rep in the league isn't so important. Just KP "manning up" and leading this **** show all by himself.

KP cant lead while he's bending over. Maybe you can, IDK. Thats not leadership to me. He held to his convictions, Porzingis is still here. Phil is in Montana. Sounds like a leader to me.

You get a grip! Contact sports is more close to the mentality of military than Office work unless you think people are throwing bows and posting up at the water cooler. You can't be serious with this take.

I don't get you at all. You tried to push this as a fairness issue rather than one of personal responsibility. KP needs to man up and accept the challenge and not wuss out pointing to others not getting as much attention. As I said KP needs to worry about his own effort level and be an example for others to follow. Don't remember having to make excuses for Oakley or Ewing. Why are we going to allow KP to play soft?

No, they post up on the weekend, for fun, and get the same injuries, only worse because they're older.

This notion of blind loyalty to a team/employer who is clearly disrespecting you by giving other players carte blanche, no matter how it affects the team, I dont get myself. Its not family or country, its work.

Personal responsibility at work only means something if its applied equally. Why would any player want anything else? The player who is third in touches, shouldnt get most of the heat.

Personal responsibility means nothing if its selectively enforced, by anyone. Thats not a team concept.

All you're doing is obfuscating the real issue. You've selected DRose as an excuse for KP NOT accepting personal responsibility. You're assuming that nothing was said to DRose and that's a valid excuse for KP not manning up to his coaches challenge. It's a WEAK argument because in fact KP is the one that still needed to step up his game regardless of what DRose did or didn't do. KP STILL needed to raise his game. PERIOD. He doesn't have to like it. KP's job is to respond with greater effort.

You're the one who brought in the military, not I. Exactly what was KP's cardinal sin other than blowing off the exit meeting? Was he a selfish ball stopper? Did he play Matador D? Was he a difficult teammate to get along with? Did he embarrass the team off the court, other than a few failed attempts at a booty call? What the hell did he do that has caused some folks to get sand in their nether regions?

You keep repeating "personal responsibility" like a mantra. Porzingis numbers got better, in spite of all the dysfunction. He held up his end of the bargain. Coaching, mgmt, thats another story.

The Military analogy is common in sports. I don't understand why this is even a talking point. Of course it's not literally life and death but many of the concepts of sports originated with mock war and they treat Training Camp like Boot Camp. You know what the F I'm talking about. SMH.

As for why this is an issue if the stories are true, that's because KP decided to skip his Exit Meeting and then cut off communication with his Coach for an extended period. What was KP hoping to achieve with his highly publicized act of defiance? It surely wasn't to resolve his unhappiness and not become a source of controversy and embarrassment. The Manly thing to do would be to go meet with Phil and Jeff and talk it out. You can't explain your way around this fact. KP WAS WRONG!

I know exactly what you are talking about, and in this age of perpetual war, I believe it is in poor taste. I see commentators on TV catch themselves sometimes after they invoke this metaphor because they know that actual men an women are dying overseas in our name, as we speak. Not appropriate anymore, if it ever was. There are some common expressions, but drawing a direct comparison goes too far.

If you are going to claim that blowing off one meeting negates everything. In spite of KP's improvement as a player in a very difficult situation. His more than willingness to admit what he did and didn't do right as a player, to millions of fans, and apparently spending the summer working on it.

If you believe that isn't enough personal responsibility, then you should at least be holding his coach and teammates to the same standard. Certainly Hornacek should hold himself responsible for giving other players a pass for far worse behavior. Like going AWOL during the season, not after it.

As I said, KP earned his paycheck, did Jeff and Rambis? Did Phil? Hell no.

Again your taking the Military analogy too far and out of context for how I'm using it. I'm not saying sports IS WAR! It is however common to use THE SAME training techniques to break players bad habits and build them up with good habits and as well as bonding as a team. I'm NOT equating sports with soldiers fighting and dying so stop it. Like I said Military and Law Enforcement family. When my Dad was in Vietnam we lived at Fort Dix. Civil War, WWI, WWII, Nam, Afghan & Iraq vets in my Family.

Also never said KP missing Exit Meeting negates everything. It's simple that was a poor decision and then he compounded it by refusing to return calls and texts. You can't excuse that when the right thing would be for KP to behave like an adult and voice his displeasure directly.

GustavBahler
Posts: 32321
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
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8/30/2017  11:53 PM
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
nixluva wrote:Popovich

SAN ANTONIO — Gregg Popovich arrived at Tim Duncan's jersey retirement ceremony well prepared. In his suit coat pocket were several tissues, folded neatly, just in case.

The San Antonio Spurs coach nearly needed them when he expressed 20 years' worth of gratitude for what he understands was the singular trait that made Duncan one of the greatest leaders in the history of basketball.

Popovich coaches hard, from the top of the roster to the bottom. And it helps to have a certain kind of team leader when you demand perfection, often at full volume.

In David Robinson, he had a fellow military academy graduate who understood command structure. In Duncan, he discovered a humble superstar, without ego or hint of attitude, willing to be an example for every teammate.


Trying to explain this to a sellout crowd at the Sunday ceremony at the AT&T Center that followed the Spurs' 113-100 win over the New Orleans Pelicans nearly brought Popovich's emotions to the surface.

"If your superstar can take a little hit now and then, everybody else can shut the hell up and fall in line," Popovich said, and then it was clear he felt his throat starting to tighten. He paused, a long delay, then stamped his foot.


Turning to look directly at Duncan, Popovich finally was able to continue.

"So, thank you for letting me coach you, Timmy," Popovich said. "I'm really thankful because you allowed me to coach the team."

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2682681-gregg-popovich-and-spurs-stars-recall-tim-duncans-exemplary-career.amp.html

You are missing the point. The only superstar on that team last season was former MVP Rose, and he was playing like there wasnt anyone else on the team most of the time. Popovich would never have become the coach he became, earn respect not just nationally but internationally, if he had singled out Duncan, and let Tony Parker play the way Rose did. Would never have happened. Completely different situation

I believe if Hornacek had established himself as a coach who doesnt take any BS on the court from ANY player, Porzingis would have taken the heat like everyone else.


I think you are right. Bondy and now Vescey have written about this happening.

In the end KP has to learn how to accept hard coaching of HIM and not be looking at how anyone else is coached as if this is F'n Kindergarten or Peewee League where everyone gets a participation trophy!!! Put your damn big boy pants and GO HARDER. WTF is wrong with people? Since when do we have to accept softness or sensitivity from players? Oakley is face palming right now over this kind of BS!

If someone treated you like that at your job (nevermind the pay) you saw that kind of double standard, doubt you would appreciate that kind of a pep talk.

First off there's no comparison between an office and sports. There's almost a military approach in sports where like a Sergeant might break a soldier down to build him up as a fierce fighter. Football coaches are notorious for being hard on players.

Pushing KP is probably necessary. KP has to learn just how hard he has to play as a Big in this league. I have no problem with this. KP needs to go workout with Oakley and see what he thinks.

Im sure some folks in Iraq and Afghanistan would take issue with that remark. Of course they compare, its a multi-billion dollar business, these athletes are corporations unto themselves. Its very much work, and millions of people are watching.

As a fan, I have no problem with Hornacek pushing KP, probably needs it. But if you are singling out a player, and letting others get away with worse, actual stars, then it doesnt come off as "tough love" comes off as being an *******

Whatever! I come from a Military and Police Family. I really don't think it's acceptable to make excuses for KP by bringing up DRose. This is about KP and how he handles coaching and being challenged. I don't wanna hear any Whining or crying what about so and so! No MF what about YOU manning up and handling your business? You wanna be great or not! Get your ass in gear and be a leader.

Dont care, no one is shooting at them, trying to blow them up. Its closer to a regular paycheck than it is to actual combat. Get a grip.

Suddenly culture change isnt so important. Keeping future stars who will be FAs on a team already with the worst rep in the league isn't so important. Just KP "manning up" and leading this **** show all by himself.

KP cant lead while he's bending over. Maybe you can, IDK. Thats not leadership to me. He held to his convictions, Porzingis is still here. Phil is in Montana. Sounds like a leader to me.

You get a grip! Contact sports is more close to the mentality of military than Office work unless you think people are throwing bows and posting up at the water cooler. You can't be serious with this take.

I don't get you at all. You tried to push this as a fairness issue rather than one of personal responsibility. KP needs to man up and accept the challenge and not wuss out pointing to others not getting as much attention. As I said KP needs to worry about his own effort level and be an example for others to follow. Don't remember having to make excuses for Oakley or Ewing. Why are we going to allow KP to play soft?

No, they post up on the weekend, for fun, and get the same injuries, only worse because they're older.

This notion of blind loyalty to a team/employer who is clearly disrespecting you by giving other players carte blanche, no matter how it affects the team, I dont get myself. Its not family or country, its work.

Personal responsibility at work only means something if its applied equally. Why would any player want anything else? The player who is third in touches, shouldnt get most of the heat.

Personal responsibility means nothing if its selectively enforced, by anyone. Thats not a team concept.

All you're doing is obfuscating the real issue. You've selected DRose as an excuse for KP NOT accepting personal responsibility. You're assuming that nothing was said to DRose and that's a valid excuse for KP not manning up to his coaches challenge. It's a WEAK argument because in fact KP is the one that still needed to step up his game regardless of what DRose did or didn't do. KP STILL needed to raise his game. PERIOD. He doesn't have to like it. KP's job is to respond with greater effort.

You're the one who brought in the military, not I. Exactly what was KP's cardinal sin other than blowing off the exit meeting? Was he a selfish ball stopper? Did he play Matador D? Was he a difficult teammate to get along with? Did he embarrass the team off the court, other than a few failed attempts at a booty call? What the hell did he do that has caused some folks to get sand in their nether regions?

You keep repeating "personal responsibility" like a mantra. Porzingis numbers got better, in spite of all the dysfunction. He held up his end of the bargain. Coaching, mgmt, thats another story.

The Military analogy is common in sports. I don't understand why this is even a talking point. Of course it's not literally life and death but many of the concepts of sports originated with mock war and they treat Training Camp like Boot Camp. You know what the F I'm talking about. SMH.

As for why this is an issue if the stories are true, that's because KP decided to skip his Exit Meeting and then cut off communication with his Coach for an extended period. What was KP hoping to achieve with his highly publicized act of defiance? It surely wasn't to resolve his unhappiness and not become a source of controversy and embarrassment. The Manly thing to do would be to go meet with Phil and Jeff and talk it out. You can't explain your way around this fact. KP WAS WRONG!

I know exactly what you are talking about, and in this age of perpetual war, I believe it is in poor taste. I see commentators on TV catch themselves sometimes after they invoke this metaphor because they know that actual men an women are dying overseas in our name, as we speak. Not appropriate anymore, if it ever was. There are some common expressions, but drawing a direct comparison goes too far.

If you are going to claim that blowing off one meeting negates everything. In spite of KP's improvement as a player in a very difficult situation. His more than willingness to admit what he did and didn't do right as a player, to millions of fans, and apparently spending the summer working on it.

If you believe that isn't enough personal responsibility, then you should at least be holding his coach and teammates to the same standard. Certainly Hornacek should hold himself responsible for giving other players a pass for far worse behavior. Like going AWOL during the season, not after it.

As I said, KP earned his paycheck, did Jeff and Rambis? Did Phil? Hell no.

Again your taking the Military analogy too far and out of context for how I'm using it. I'm not saying sports IS WAR! It is however common to use THE SAME training techniques to break players bad habits and build them up with good habits and as well as bonding as a team. I'm NOT equating sports with soldiers fighting and dying so stop it. Like I said Military and Law Enforcement family. When my Dad was in Vietnam we lived at Fort Dix. Civil War, WWI, WWII, Nam, Afghan & Iraq vets in my Family.

Also never said KP missing Exit Meeting negates everything. It's simple that was a poor decision and then he compounded it by refusing to return calls and texts. You can't excuse that when the right thing would be for KP to behave like an adult and voice his displeasure directly.

Had a Dad in the military as well, served before Vietnam, and neither or them was us. I believe any argument that involves purposely drawing a line between the two is a losing argument regardless of your intentions. I will leave it at that.

I have mixed emotions about KP skipping the meeting. Its not something I would want to see players do. At the same time its clear the team was a mess from top to bottom (as KP said) and seeing an opportunity to force the issue, he took it. It achieved the desired results. Phil is gone, Rose is gone, Jeff is on notice with mgmt. Mgmt has reconfirmed its determination to build around KP.
The team is better off for it, hard for me to complain about that. It helped bring in Perry, who at least isnt another Dolan yes man. Glad someone tried in their own way to put sn end to the dysfunction.

nixluva
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8/31/2017  12:23 AM
Jeff was backed up by the Front Office and they even kept Rambis. Don't know what you mean by Jeff being on notice!
Jeff was right there on stage with Mills and Perry. All they did was show a united front. KP is going to have to fall in line.
GustavBahler
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8/31/2017  12:44 AM
nixluva wrote:Jeff was backed up by the Front Office and they even kept Rambis. Don't know what you mean by Jeff being on notice!
Jeff was right there on stage with Mills and Perry. All they did was show a united front. KP is going to have to fall in line.

On notice, on the hot seat, Hornacek and Rambis have to show real progress this season or they will both be gone. Unless Rambis is the new Herb Williams. Porzingis was in line during the season. Thats what really matters.

Hornacek has to figure out if his motivational techniques are going to make his players fall in line, or get him fired.

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8/31/2017  7:52 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:The trolls are singing a different tune now, sounds like a new primary target is being acquired. Poor Jeff - his days as coach are numbered. Wait till every tweet on the internet about why he shouldn't have yelled at KP becomes a new thread. Same **** different target. The script for 2017-18 season is all but set. It will be Jeff's fault that Melo/THJR keep shooting and the offense doesn't flow through KP, or rather the offense doesn't flow,period. To be fai they will also blame the rookie - fire Jeff/Trade Frank. KP will let Dolan know its either him or the coach...he is learning from the best coach killer of all time.

No matter how many Coaches, GMs and Presidents are recycled through the front office for some completely "unknown" reason the dysfunction will continue.


I am curious how you would recommend this situation be handled. Do you trade KP? Do you tell him to man up, vets like Rose and Melo are treated differently because of who they are and their deficiencies and behaviors are not his concern? Do you fire Jeff for not confronting Melo and Rose for their poor play, Rose's AWOL, locker room issues etc. Do you wait to see if things improve because KP's deal isn't up yet?
In my opinion a new gm/pres should hire his own coach that shares his vision. Grunwald's coach was Woodson, Phil's coach was Kerr and the coach that shared his vision last year was Rambis. I think Mills ends up with his own coach after this season but the smart move probably was to bring in a new coach going forward after all the sh@t that went on last year. That isnt on KP. You could make the argument that Jeff didn't get a fair shot last year but he was present for whatever went on.

We have no idea what went on i practice every day. That said its not a good look for the supposed franchise player to turn away and run instead of facing his issues. I think we should of moved him for a multitude of reasons most having to do with basketball and trends in the NBA. I think this franchise is going to regret not taking what they could when they had the chance but for the Knicks sake I hope im wrong

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
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8/31/2017  8:57 AM
LivingLegend wrote:Dare I say....

Puss-zingis

This was inevitable.

knicks1248
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8/31/2017  11:33 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/31/2017  11:34 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:The trolls are singing a different tune now, sounds like a new primary target is being acquired. Poor Jeff - his days as coach are numbered. Wait till every tweet on the internet about why he shouldn't have yelled at KP becomes a new thread. Same **** different target. The script for 2017-18 season is all but set. It will be Jeff's fault that Melo/THJR keep shooting and the offense doesn't flow through KP, or rather the offense doesn't flow,period. To be fai they will also blame the rookie - fire Jeff/Trade Frank. KP will let Dolan know its either him or the coach...he is learning from the best coach killer of all time.

No matter how many Coaches, GMs and Presidents are recycled through the front office for some completely "unknown" reason the dysfunction will continue.


I am curious how you would recommend this situation be handled. Do you trade KP? Do you tell him to man up, vets like Rose and Melo are treated differently because of who they are and their deficiencies and behaviors are not his concern? Do you fire Jeff for not confronting Melo and Rose for their poor play, Rose's AWOL, locker room issues etc. Do you wait to see if things improve because KP's deal isn't up yet?
In my opinion a new gm/pres should hire his own coach that shares his vision. Grunwald's coach was Woodson, Phil's coach was Kerr and the coach that shared his vision last year was Rambis. I think Mills ends up with his own coach after this season but the smart move probably was to bring in a new coach going forward after all the sh@t that went on last year. That isnt on KP. You could make the argument that Jeff didn't get a fair shot last year but he was present for whatever went on.

We have no idea what went on i practice every day. That said its not a good look for the supposed franchise player to turn away and run instead of facing his issues. I think we should of moved him for a multitude of reasons most having to do with basketball and trends in the NBA. I think this franchise is going to regret not taking what they could when they had the chance but for the Knicks sake I hope im wrong

if Durant just publicly stated that the knicks front office is the main reason FA steer clear of the knicks, changing players won't rectify whats really wrong with these bunch of misfits.

Some fans will continue to blame the players for whatever reason.

player after player have complain at some point about the dysfunction that goes on between the front office or coaching staff. so we trade melo, or kp or who ever, that problem will still exist.

ES
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8/31/2017  1:38 PM
nixluva wrote:Jeff was backed up by the Front Office and they even kept Rambis. Don't know what you mean by Jeff being on notice!
Jeff was right there on stage with Mills and Perry. All they did was show a united front. KP is going to have to fall in line.

When do coaches usually get endorsed?
https://www.theringer.com/2017/7/28/16077800/nba-coaches-hot-seat-watch-2017-f2d777fa77eb
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
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8/31/2017  2:19 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:Jeff was backed up by the Front Office and they even kept Rambis. Don't know what you mean by Jeff being on notice!
Jeff was right there on stage with Mills and Perry. All they did was show a united front. KP is going to have to fall in line.

When do coaches usually get endorsed?
https://www.theringer.com/2017/7/28/16077800/nba-coaches-hot-seat-watch-2017-f2d777fa77eb
Article doesnt say much but Jeff is in danger because he works for Dolan. 5 coaches in 6 years = on the hot seast. That is somewhat fair but no real intel is being offered. Now if Mills and Perry were seen having lunch with David Blatt now that would be a headline
fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
nixluva
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8/31/2017  2:26 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
nixluva wrote:Jeff was backed up by the Front Office and they even kept Rambis. Don't know what you mean by Jeff being on notice!
Jeff was right there on stage with Mills and Perry. All they did was show a united front. KP is going to have to fall in line.

When do coaches usually get endorsed?
https://www.theringer.com/2017/7/28/16077800/nba-coaches-hot-seat-watch-2017-f2d777fa77eb

I understand the general logic of Jeff needing to perform in year 2 after a new GM is hired. I also see him as part of a continuum of the Phil-Mills Regime. Mills is still here and as a group much of the old philosophy is still in play.

The Vegas line is 30.5 and ESPN says 32! Jeff will only be fired if they fail miserably IMO. If he has the team at or near .500 much of the year he'll have exceeded expectations. Jeff's not forced to run Triangle but I expect he'll still use it some. His normal offense is more fun to play and he will likely have more buy in from this roster.

Nitty, Baker and Sessions are better defenders than DRose and BJ and more likely to execute exactly what Jeff asks for. This will make a huge difference IMO. Better perimeter D will only help the rest of the team as will Unselfish PG play. I expect a more competitive team.

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8/31/2017  3:02 PM
I'd say how the team progresses year to year, and within the season itself is very important.
Start weak with yoot getting big minutes, then finish season strong would be positive.
Start Strong, then into dysfunction is not.
Start weak, not progress. Bad.
Lose your team. Bad.

So this notion that a coach has to "Win X games" is silly. Does the coach have a "Make playoffs or make plans" directive?
What is the teams expectations and what is real?
Is melo a factor?
What is the concentration of blame is on KP Or on Jeff?
What is the context by which Jeff called out KP and does KP really have cause to be upset or is he out of line?

So many questions, and instead so much conjecture is offered as if we know. We don't.
We don't know to what extent Jeff was hard on Melo and Rose. We don't know if he backed off them because they are "gone"?
Was KP "Not getting it" or ignoring his coach"??

Anger sells, don't buy!
knicks1248
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8/31/2017  3:23 PM
until there's a mandate that winning is not a option, this FO and coaching staff will be full of Bull shht, and we'll be on these boards talking about the players are the problem.

They don't take losing serious, just another day on the job..they go to happy hr after every loss, it's all habitual.

ES
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8/31/2017  3:36 PM
knicks1248 wrote:until there's a mandate that winning is not a option, this FO and coaching staff will be full of Bull shht, and we'll be on these boards talking about the players are the problem.

They don't take losing serious, just another day on the job..they go to happy hr after every loss, it's all habitual.

How do you know all this?
There are coaches that go nuts and the players laugh them off. They got their contracts.
This is your opinion or you actually know any of this?

I'll hate on Melo for a moment. He misses a game winner, he smiles. He hits a game winner, he preens and looks angry as if "How dare anyone doubt me!!". Jsut funny stuff.

Anger sells, don't buy!
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8/31/2017  5:17 PM
Nalod wrote:I'd say how the team progresses year to year, and within the season itself is very important.
Start weak with yoot getting big minutes, then finish season strong would be positive.
Start Strong, then into dysfunction is not.
Start weak, not progress. Bad.
Lose your team. Bad.

So this notion that a coach has to "Win X games" is silly. Does the coach have a "Make playoffs or make plans" directive?
What is the teams expectations and what is real?
Is melo a factor?
What is the concentration of blame is on KP Or on Jeff?
What is the context by which Jeff called out KP and does KP really have cause to be upset or is he out of line?

So many questions, and instead so much conjecture is offered as if we know. We don't.
We don't know to what extent Jeff was hard on Melo and Rose. We don't know if he backed off them because they are "gone"?
Was KP "Not getting it" or ignoring his coach"??

If Jeff lost his team I think the blame is on him. Someone, Bondy?, wrote about players respecting Fisher for not allowing Phil to force the triangle on him but said this was not the case with Hornacek. Phil talked about a 'rebelliousness' on the team. The roster last year was mainly undrafted and second round picks. Only 5 first round picks were on the roster at the end of the season and one was suspended. Generally rosters made up of guys fighting to stay in the league are not rebellious. There were two reports about how Jeff called out KP. Bondy wrote about KP feeling that he was being called out more than any other player. Vescey wrote about Hornacek asking Willy to tell KP to stop playing like a '*****'. Neither is good. Especially when you look at the Rose situation and no consequence being given for the abandoning the team.
Hornacek was pushed around by management in Phoenix when they fired his assistants against his wishes. Last year his boss dictated a change in the style of play midseason and he conformed to it. Maybe Jeff works things out this year with Phil not pushing the triangle but he has a bit to overcome from last year. He can be a pretty good coach but he hasn't been so far. If it comes down to a power struggle between an okay coach and a possible franchise player the coach loses every time.
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
nixluva
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8/31/2017  7:03 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:I'd say how the team progresses year to year, and within the season itself is very important.
Start weak with yoot getting big minutes, then finish season strong would be positive.
Start Strong, then into dysfunction is not.
Start weak, not progress. Bad.
Lose your team. Bad.

So this notion that a coach has to "Win X games" is silly. Does the coach have a "Make playoffs or make plans" directive?
What is the teams expectations and what is real?
Is melo a factor?
What is the concentration of blame is on KP Or on Jeff?
What is the context by which Jeff called out KP and does KP really have cause to be upset or is he out of line?

So many questions, and instead so much conjecture is offered as if we know. We don't.
We don't know to what extent Jeff was hard on Melo and Rose. We don't know if he backed off them because they are "gone"?
Was KP "Not getting it" or ignoring his coach"??

If Jeff lost his team I think the blame is on him. Someone, Bondy?, wrote about players respecting Fisher for not allowing Phil to force the triangle on him but said this was not the case with Hornacek. Phil talked about a 'rebelliousness' on the team. The roster last year was mainly undrafted and second round picks. Only 5 first round picks were on the roster at the end of the season and one was suspended. Generally rosters made up of guys fighting to stay in the league are not rebellious. There were two reports about how Jeff called out KP. Bondy wrote about KP feeling that he was being called out more than any other player. Vescey wrote about Hornacek asking Willy to tell KP to stop playing like a '*****'. Neither is good. Especially when you look at the Rose situation and no consequence being given for the abandoning the team.
Hornacek was pushed around by management in Phoenix when they fired his assistants against his wishes. Last year his boss dictated a change in the style of play midseason and he conformed to it. Maybe Jeff works things out this year with Phil not pushing the triangle but he has a bit to overcome from last year. He can be a pretty good coach but he hasn't been so far. If it comes down to a power struggle between an okay coach and a possible franchise player the coach loses every time.

If Jeff was "calling out" KP then he was only trying to help KP! He has no other reason to make corrective coaching comments to KP other than to push him to be better! KP is not just another player on the team. The level of attention KP gets from coaches is a reflection of his importance!
KP can't be so thin skinned in his position on the team! He has no idea how tough things will be once Melo is gone and all eyes are on him.

Also Jeff AGREED to try and blend his own concepts with the Triangle so this BS that Phil forced him to change his style is overstated. Jeff was still using Triangle as part of his Hybrid system in Summer League as well as his other concepts. The team NEVER ran a pure Triangle last year even after Phil and Jeff agreed to work on refreshing Triangle Fundamentals.

I actually like Jeff for this team. I expect he'll be more effective with this year's team. A few less RESISTANT VETS and more young talent ready to give Max Effort, learn and execute.

CrushAlot
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8/31/2017  8:07 PM
nixluva wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:I'd say how the team progresses year to year, and within the season itself is very important.
Start weak with yoot getting big minutes, then finish season strong would be positive.
Start Strong, then into dysfunction is not.
Start weak, not progress. Bad.
Lose your team. Bad.

So this notion that a coach has to "Win X games" is silly. Does the coach have a "Make playoffs or make plans" directive?
What is the teams expectations and what is real?
Is melo a factor?
What is the concentration of blame is on KP Or on Jeff?
What is the context by which Jeff called out KP and does KP really have cause to be upset or is he out of line?

So many questions, and instead so much conjecture is offered as if we know. We don't.
We don't know to what extent Jeff was hard on Melo and Rose. We don't know if he backed off them because they are "gone"?
Was KP "Not getting it" or ignoring his coach"??

If Jeff lost his team I think the blame is on him. Someone, Bondy?, wrote about players respecting Fisher for not allowing Phil to force the triangle on him but said this was not the case with Hornacek. Phil talked about a 'rebelliousness' on the team. The roster last year was mainly undrafted and second round picks. Only 5 first round picks were on the roster at the end of the season and one was suspended. Generally rosters made up of guys fighting to stay in the league are not rebellious. There were two reports about how Jeff called out KP. Bondy wrote about KP feeling that he was being called out more than any other player. Vescey wrote about Hornacek asking Willy to tell KP to stop playing like a '*****'. Neither is good. Especially when you look at the Rose situation and no consequence being given for the abandoning the team.
Hornacek was pushed around by management in Phoenix when they fired his assistants against his wishes. Last year his boss dictated a change in the style of play midseason and he conformed to it. Maybe Jeff works things out this year with Phil not pushing the triangle but he has a bit to overcome from last year. He can be a pretty good coach but he hasn't been so far. If it comes down to a power struggle between an okay coach and a possible franchise player the coach loses every time.

If Jeff was "calling out" KP then he was only trying to help KP! He has no other reason to make corrective coaching comments to KP other than to push him to be better! KP is not just another player on the team. The level of attention KP gets from coaches is a reflection of his importance!
KP can't be so thin skinned in his position on the team! He has no idea how tough things will be once Melo is gone and all eyes are on him.

Also Jeff AGREED to try and blend his own concepts with the Triangle so this BS that Phil forced him to change his style is overstated. Jeff was still using Triangle as part of his Hybrid system in Summer League as well as his other concepts. The team NEVER ran a pure Triangle last year even after Phil and Jeff agreed to work on refreshing Triangle Fundamentals.

I actually like Jeff for this team. I expect he'll be more effective with this year's team. A few less RESISTANT VETS and more young talent ready to give Max Effort, learn and execute.

Bondy retweeted a link to the article he wrote back in the beginning of July today. This is what he said his source said about Jeff yelling at KP.

One of the issues, according to a source, was Hornacek’s willingness to scream and yell at Porzingis, which was not something he did with other players.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/kristaps-porzingis-jeff-hornacek-relationship-crucial-knicks-article-1.3296159
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
CrushAlot
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8/31/2017  8:15 PM
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
Vecsey: Porzingis Skipped Exit Meeting Due To Feud With Hornacek

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