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Keep Anthony's azz here
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CrushAlot
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8/15/2017  7:08 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

Interesting theory about Anderson and a buyout. Not sure what information you are basing that on. Looked at both players and came up with this.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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Knickoftime
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8/15/2017  7:15 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

GustavBahler
Posts: 41138
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8/15/2017  7:19 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

Interesting theory about Anderson and a buyout. Not sure what information you are basing that on. Looked at both players and came up with this.

The first part about staying in NYC definitely sounds like a blurb from Melo's people. They know damned well it will hurt the cap. F that...I hope.

meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
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8/15/2017  7:31 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

Irrelevant? Because you have decided the Knicks strategy? LOL

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
meloshouldgo
Posts: 26565
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8/15/2017  7:33 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

Interesting theory about Anderson and a buyout. Not sure what information you are basing that on. Looked at both players and came up with this.

The first part about staying in NYC definitely sounds like a blurb from Melo's people. They know damned well it will hurt the cap. F that...I hope.

It basically means he'll accept 50K less on the 27MM that we owe him.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Knickoftime
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8/15/2017  7:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/15/2017  7:40 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

Irrelevant? Because you have decided the Knicks strategy? LOL

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is about the Knicks, Carmelo Anthony and Ryan Anderson. There's no need for this to get personal.

I've made it clear I think the priority is to keep new salary out of 2019-20 (at least as it pertains to guys over 30). Yes that is my opinion, I never tried to suggest otherwise. Whether Melo agrees to a buyout or is released, tomorrow, the day before camp starts, or next spring, 2019-20 remains uncompromised.

That can't occur with Anderson.

GustavBahler
Posts: 41138
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8/15/2017  7:44 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

Interesting theory about Anderson and a buyout. Not sure what information you are basing that on. Looked at both players and came up with this.

The first part about staying in NYC definitely sounds like a blurb from Melo's people. They know damned well it will hurt the cap. F that...I hope.

It basically means he'll accept 50K less on the 27MM that we owe him.

Melo already agreed to waive the trade kicker, which was no small change. What I dont like about that comment was that if NY meant so much to him, he wouldn't be trying to push a deal that F's us. You dont limit your destination to one city, if you are really thinking of the fans.

meloshouldgo
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8/16/2017  7:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/16/2017  7:26 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

Irrelevant? Because you have decided the Knicks strategy? LOL

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is about the Knicks, Carmelo Anthony and Ryan Anderson. There's no need for this to get personal.

I've made it clear I think the priority is to keep new salary out of 2019-20 (at least as it pertains to guys over 30). Yes that is my opinion, I never tried to suggest otherwise. Whether Melo agrees to a buyout or is released, tomorrow, the day before camp starts, or next spring, 2019-20 remains uncompromised.

That can't occur with Anderson.

Definitely not trying to make it personal.

The Knicks buying out Melo is pure conjecture too but if that's fair topic for discussion, then I don't know what distinction you are trying to make.

Buyout is loosely defined. If Melo takes 20K less than 27MM or whatever he is owed that's still a buyout. To realistically evaluate whether a buyout is better than a RA and draft picks trade, you have to stake out a position on how much less he will be willing to take. Because of he doesn't agree to the terms of a buyout and is released next spring, we still risk all that drama and negativity.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
CrushAlot
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8/16/2017  7:15 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

Irrelevant? Because you have decided the Knicks strategy? LOL

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is about the Knicks, Carmelo Anthony and Ryan Anderson. There's no need for this to get personal.

I've made it clear I think the priority is to keep new salary out of 2019-20 (at least as it pertains to guys over 30). Yes that is my opinion, I never tried to suggest otherwise. Whether Melo agrees to a buyout or is released, tomorrow, the day before camp starts, or next spring, 2019-20 remains uncompromised.

That can't occur with Anderson.

Definitely not trying to make it personal.

The Knicks buying out Melo is pure conjecture too but if that's fair topic for discussion, then I don't know what distinction you are trying to make.

Your position is we should only focus on the cap for 2019 and beyond. My position is we should not being Melo aback under any circumstances and we should focus on acquiring multiple draft picks wherever possible. The rumored RA trade does both.

are there multiple picks coming back? I think there is a chance the deal is done if that is the case.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
meloshouldgo
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8/16/2017  7:27 AM
Accidentally wiped out large part of the text but can't repost note
I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Bonn1997
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8/16/2017  7:32 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

Irrelevant? Because you have decided the Knicks strategy? LOL

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is about the Knicks, Carmelo Anthony and Ryan Anderson. There's no need for this to get personal.

I've made it clear I think the priority is to keep new salary out of 2019-20 (at least as it pertains to guys over 30). Yes that is my opinion, I never tried to suggest otherwise. Whether Melo agrees to a buyout or is released, tomorrow, the day before camp starts, or next spring, 2019-20 remains uncompromised.

That can't occur with Anderson.


Why are you placing this high a priority on cap space for the 2019 off-season? Obviously it would be nice to have cap space then but I'm not sure it merits the amount of importance you're giving. I'm not sure it warrants giving up picks and good role player(s) (by rejecting the RA deal) to save the cap space. That's just another way of looking at it. Is there someone specific who you have your eyes on in 2019 who has expressed desire to come here? Or you just like the concept of having lots of cap space and options?
Knickoftime
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8/16/2017  11:14 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

Irrelevant? Because you have decided the Knicks strategy? LOL

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is about the Knicks, Carmelo Anthony and Ryan Anderson. There's no need for this to get personal.

I've made it clear I think the priority is to keep new salary out of 2019-20 (at least as it pertains to guys over 30). Yes that is my opinion, I never tried to suggest otherwise. Whether Melo agrees to a buyout or is released, tomorrow, the day before camp starts, or next spring, 2019-20 remains uncompromised.

That can't occur with Anderson.

Definitely not trying to make it personal.

I could've easily replied "Because you have decided Anderson's mindset? LOL" in mocking way when you suggested you knew Anderson would be more amenable to a buyout than melo.

Buyout is loosely defined. If Melo takes 20K less than 27MM or whatever he is owed that's still a buyout. To realistically evaluate whether a buyout is better than a RA and draft picks trade, you have to stake out a position on how much less he will be willing to take. Because of he doesn't agree to the terms of a buyout and is released next spring, we still risk all that drama and negativity.

Again I've made it clear, a buyout is not even necessary to be rid of Melo at the start of training camp and in the 2019-20 season if the former is your goal and the latter is mine. If no buyout or trade emerges straight out release accomplices both those things. You don't need a trade or buyout for those things.

I am focusing on one thing - minimizing the long term cap hit. There are too many variables in terms of draft picks to speculate - how many, when, what protection, the state of the Rockets when the pics vest.

Knickoftime
Posts: 24159
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8/16/2017  11:33 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

Irrelevant? Because you have decided the Knicks strategy? LOL

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is about the Knicks, Carmelo Anthony and Ryan Anderson. There's no need for this to get personal.

I've made it clear I think the priority is to keep new salary out of 2019-20 (at least as it pertains to guys over 30). Yes that is my opinion, I never tried to suggest otherwise. Whether Melo agrees to a buyout or is released, tomorrow, the day before camp starts, or next spring, 2019-20 remains uncompromised.

That can't occur with Anderson.


Why are you placing this high a priority on cap space for the 2019 off-season? Obviously it would be nice to have cap space then but I'm not sure it merits the amount of importance you're giving. I'm not sure it warrants giving up picks

For one the inclusion of "picks" is completely speculative. And as I've written many times, the term picks itself is completely inadequate and undescriptive. There is a wildly varying degrees of difference between picks 1-10, 11-20, and 21-30, not even mentioning there is significant varying degrees of the quality within those groups.

"Picks" just doesn't mean any one thing, not even close.

and good role player(s) (by rejecting the RA deal) to save the cap space. That's just another way of looking at it.

It would be highly optimistic to project the Knicks as a playoff team this year, even next year is a stretch. Anderson as a role player just has zero value to a team not playoff bound. You take on role players when you're ready to compete, not to get less ping-pong balls.

Is there someone specific who you have your eyes on in 2019 who has expressed desire to come here?

No.

Or you just like the concept of having lots of cap space and options?

Again, I can't evaluate "picks" because no one has any idea if any will be included or the quality or quantity of them even if one or two were.

The quality of any picks is utterly relevant.

And Anderson is in fact counterproductive unless you plan to go to the postseason.

Bonn1997
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8/16/2017  11:51 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/16/2017  11:56 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:I'm fine with Melo starting to season here. Its better than taking back Ryan Anderson's terrible contract. HOWEVER if Melo is gonna be here then he needs to understand that its about the youth movement now. KP is obviously the main piece but also Willy,Timmy,and Frank are gonna be a big part of the present and future. Obviously melo still needs to play but he wont be the primary focus anymore. If he can accept that for the time then things should be pretty good until we can find a trade that makes both sides happy.

What makes you think he can or will accept being anything but the focus of the offense in NY? And since we are talking about trading Melo's contract against Anderson's what makes that second one So horrible? He is overpaid? So is Melo. It lasts 3 years? is that any different from keeping and stretching Melo? At least RA will have positive attitude and won't cause any drama.


I agree with all of that but it certainly seems the Knicks don't see it this way. I think the deal would have been done by now if they did.

Yeah they are negotiating from a position of zero leverage. If Melo stays it's a bad outcome for team chemistry and KP's development. If Melo goes to Houston in a trade we need to take on RA or similar contracts via third team. Houston doesn't have a critical or urging need for Melo. Though some people here want to believe that they do.

As always, a 3rd option is a Melo buyout of some kind.

No Melo in 2017-18, no bad contract(s) into 2019-2020.

And a RA buyout is probably a lot more realistic

But by CBA rules, would have to extended to 2019-20.

I'm not even going to ask why it would be more realistic.

He is going to be more amenable to a buyout, doesn't have a history of holding this franchise hostage and may be willing to look at an universe of more than one team - comes to mind.

The first thing is pure conjecture, but again, mostly irrelevant.

The knicks priority shouldn't be to save pennies this year and next, but not to add any salary to 2019-20. The Knicks could simply release Melo and that mission is accomplished. Buy out or not, the financial relationship ends next season.

Acquire Anderson and however amenable he may or may not be to a buyout, he adds salary to 2019-20.

Irrelevant? Because you have decided the Knicks strategy? LOL

Irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is about the Knicks, Carmelo Anthony and Ryan Anderson. There's no need for this to get personal.

I've made it clear I think the priority is to keep new salary out of 2019-20 (at least as it pertains to guys over 30). Yes that is my opinion, I never tried to suggest otherwise. Whether Melo agrees to a buyout or is released, tomorrow, the day before camp starts, or next spring, 2019-20 remains uncompromised.

That can't occur with Anderson.


Why are you placing this high a priority on cap space for the 2019 off-season? Obviously it would be nice to have cap space then but I'm not sure it merits the amount of importance you're giving. I'm not sure it warrants giving up picks

For one the inclusion of "picks" is completely speculative. And as I've written many times, the term picks itself is completely inadequate and undescriptive. There is a wildly varying degrees of difference between picks 1-10, 11-20, and 21-30, not even mentioning there is significant varying degrees of the quality within those groups.

"Picks" just doesn't mean any one thing, not even close.

and good role player(s) (by rejecting the RA deal) to save the cap space. That's just another way of looking at it.

It would be highly optimistic to project the Knicks as a playoff team this year, even next year is a stretch. Anderson as a role player just has zero value to a team not playoff bound. You take on role players when you're ready to compete, not to get less ping-pong balls.

Is there someone specific who you have your eyes on in 2019 who has expressed desire to come here?

No.

Or you just like the concept of having lots of cap space and options?

Again, I can't evaluate "picks" because no one has any idea if any will be included or the quality or quantity of them even if one or two were.

The quality of any picks is utterly relevant.

And Anderson is in fact counterproductive unless you plan to go to the postseason.


Speculative? Of course. Everything you, the rest of the board, and I have been writing about Melo is speculative. The idea that we'll use cap space effectively in 2019 rather than signing another Noah to 4 years is speculative too. It's also speculation that we'll keep that cap space even if we don't acquire Anderson. Whether the idea is to get picks and use them effectively or keep cap space and use it effectively, you can't remove the speculation. You're right there's a huge difference in "picks" too. You generally don't know what you'll end up getting when you trade for picks. That's just the way it works. It doesn't mean you shouldn't trade for them.

Your other point: I definitely would be starting this season aiming for the playoffs after an Anderson trade. If you're saying we should be tanking, then the whole off-season should have been done differently. Or if you're saying we should be taking a half-tanking, half-competing approach, I think that's the worst place to be in.

Knickoftime
Posts: 24159
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8/16/2017  12:00 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:Speculative? Of course. Everything you, the rest of the board, and I have been writing about Melo is speculative. The idea that we'll use cap space effectively in 2019 rather than signing another Noah to 4 years is speculative too. It's also speculation that we'll keep that cap space even if we don't acquire Anderson. Whether the idea is to get picks and use them effectively or keep cap space and use it effectively, you can't remove the speculation. You're right there's a huge difference in "picks" too. You generally don't know what you'll end up getting when you trade for picks. That's just the way it works. It doesn't mean you shouldn't trade for them.

Also doesn't mean what you're getting back in order to do so is irrelevant. Anderson and his cost and his years is relevant.

Your other point: I definitely would be starting this season aiming for the playoffs after an Anderson trade. If you're saying we should be tanking, then the whole off-season should have been done differently. Or if you're saying we should be taking a half-tanking, half-competing approach, I think that's the worst place to be in.

This team has won 17, 32 and 31 games, by what reasonable criteria do we think they're making a significant leap this year?

Bonn1997
Posts: 58654
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Member: #581
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8/16/2017  12:07 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Speculative? Of course. Everything you, the rest of the board, and I have been writing about Melo is speculative. The idea that we'll use cap space effectively in 2019 rather than signing another Noah to 4 years is speculative too. It's also speculation that we'll keep that cap space even if we don't acquire Anderson. Whether the idea is to get picks and use them effectively or keep cap space and use it effectively, you can't remove the speculation. You're right there's a huge difference in "picks" too. You generally don't know what you'll end up getting when you trade for picks. That's just the way it works. It doesn't mean you shouldn't trade for them.

Also doesn't mean what you're getting back in order to do so is irrelevant. Anderson and his cost and his years is relevant.

Your other point: I definitely would be starting this season aiming for the playoffs after an Anderson trade. If you're saying we should be tanking, then the whole off-season should have been done differently. Or if you're saying we should be taking a half-tanking, half-competing approach, I think that's the worst place to be in.

This team has won 17, 32 and 31 games, by what reasonable criteria do we think they're making a significant leap this year?


I think Anderson and Hardaway substantially help their teams and KP and Willy will hopefully be improved. We wouldn't need all four of those things to happen. I said aiming for the playoffs though. I didn't say it was guaranteed. What approach do you have in mind? Did you want them to plan to tank? That's what it sounds like.
Knickoftime
Posts: 24159
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8/16/2017  12:34 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Speculative? Of course. Everything you, the rest of the board, and I have been writing about Melo is speculative. The idea that we'll use cap space effectively in 2019 rather than signing another Noah to 4 years is speculative too. It's also speculation that we'll keep that cap space even if we don't acquire Anderson. Whether the idea is to get picks and use them effectively or keep cap space and use it effectively, you can't remove the speculation. You're right there's a huge difference in "picks" too. You generally don't know what you'll end up getting when you trade for picks. That's just the way it works. It doesn't mean you shouldn't trade for them.

Also doesn't mean what you're getting back in order to do so is irrelevant. Anderson and his cost and his years is relevant.

Your other point: I definitely would be starting this season aiming for the playoffs after an Anderson trade. If you're saying we should be tanking, then the whole off-season should have been done differently. Or if you're saying we should be taking a half-tanking, half-competing approach, I think that's the worst place to be in.

This team has won 17, 32 and 31 games, by what reasonable criteria do we think they're making a significant leap this year?


I think Anderson and Hardaway substantially help their teams and KP and Willy will hopefully be improved. We wouldn't need all four of those things to happen. I said aiming for the playoffs though. I didn't say it was guaranteed. What approach do you have in mind? Did you want them to plan to tank? That's what it sounds like.

I think the Knicks should play the long game. That's all. To qualify for the seventh or eighth seed should not be a goal, but if it happens, great.

The Knicks have 19-year-old point guard. Even if he turns out to be everything we want that may not be for 3,4, 5 years from now.

And I get the Hardaway acquisition, He's young enough and hopefully still on the way up, that it makes sense as a long-term move.

I'm fine with KP, Hernangomez, Hardaway, Ntilikina, and then Baker and Dotson as building blocks. I just think pragmatically to expect it to happen this year or even next just defies what we know about NBA basketball.

Cartman718
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8/17/2017  12:52 AM
Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
Bonn1997
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8/17/2017  7:43 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Speculative? Of course. Everything you, the rest of the board, and I have been writing about Melo is speculative. The idea that we'll use cap space effectively in 2019 rather than signing another Noah to 4 years is speculative too. It's also speculation that we'll keep that cap space even if we don't acquire Anderson. Whether the idea is to get picks and use them effectively or keep cap space and use it effectively, you can't remove the speculation. You're right there's a huge difference in "picks" too. You generally don't know what you'll end up getting when you trade for picks. That's just the way it works. It doesn't mean you shouldn't trade for them.

Also doesn't mean what you're getting back in order to do so is irrelevant. Anderson and his cost and his years is relevant.

Your other point: I definitely would be starting this season aiming for the playoffs after an Anderson trade. If you're saying we should be tanking, then the whole off-season should have been done differently. Or if you're saying we should be taking a half-tanking, half-competing approach, I think that's the worst place to be in.

This team has won 17, 32 and 31 games, by what reasonable criteria do we think they're making a significant leap this year?


I think Anderson and Hardaway substantially help their teams and KP and Willy will hopefully be improved. We wouldn't need all four of those things to happen. I said aiming for the playoffs though. I didn't say it was guaranteed. What approach do you have in mind? Did you want them to plan to tank? That's what it sounds like.

I think the Knicks should play the long game. That's all. To qualify for the seventh or eighth seed should not be a goal, but if it happens, great.

The Knicks have 19-year-old point guard. Even if he turns out to be everything we want that may not be for 3,4, 5 years from now.

And I get the Hardaway acquisition, He's young enough and hopefully still on the way up, that it makes sense as a long-term move.

I'm fine with KP, Hernangomez, Hardaway, Ntilikina, and then Baker and Dotson as building blocks. I just think pragmatically to expect it to happen this year or even next just defies what we know about NBA basketball.


Believe me, I'd rather do the long-game too, in which case I wouldn't have done the Hardaway signing - not because he's old but because with patience I think there would have been better ways to use the cap space even if it meant taking back bad contracts in exchange for the best picks you can get.
I still don't think the Hardaway signing was bad but it's not the direction I wanted to go in. In this thread, I'm proposing trades that fit the Knicks' current thinking (getting players who can help now and are still in the early to middle part of their careers).
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