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New York Knicks: Frank Ntilikina working on dribble penetration skills
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Welpee
Posts: 21335
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8/11/2017  1:20 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

AUTOADVERT
GustavBahler
Posts: 32033
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

8/11/2017  1:32 PM
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 24752
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8/11/2017  1:54 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.


Can you guess who's college scouting's report this belongs too?

Doesn't have great footspeed or a very quick first step. Most NBA PG's have an extra burst of speed they can switch into to blow by their man and create their own shot, or get into the lane and create for others. He finds ways around that on the NCAA level, using a wide array of body fakes and nifty dribbling to get his defenders off balance. Will he be able to do the same in the NBA? Defensively, he plays very well on the college level, but could have trouble finding the lateral quickness to guard players like Dwyane Wade and others.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
GustavBahler
Posts: 32033
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8/11/2017  2:06 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.


Can you guess who's college scouting's report this belongs too?

Doesn't have great footspeed or a very quick first step. Most NBA PG's have an extra burst of speed they can switch into to blow by their man and create their own shot, or get into the lane and create for others. He finds ways around that on the NCAA level, using a wide array of body fakes and nifty dribbling to get his defenders off balance. Will he be able to do the same in the NBA? Defensively, he plays very well on the college level, but could have trouble finding the lateral quickness to guard players like Dwyane Wade and others.

Im guessing Rondo. Not going to answer for someone else's bad call. As I said, if Frank cant consistently get to rim, he is going to have to be a great floor general to make up for it. Cant be just about defense.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 24752
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Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

8/11/2017  2:15 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.


Can you guess who's college scouting's report this belongs too?

Doesn't have great footspeed or a very quick first step. Most NBA PG's have an extra burst of speed they can switch into to blow by their man and create their own shot, or get into the lane and create for others. He finds ways around that on the NCAA level, using a wide array of body fakes and nifty dribbling to get his defenders off balance. Will he be able to do the same in the NBA? Defensively, he plays very well on the college level, but could have trouble finding the lateral quickness to guard players like Dwyane Wade and others.

Im guessing Rondo. Not going to answer for someone else's bad call. As I said, if Frank cant consistently get to rim, he is going to have to be a great floor general to make up for it. Cant be just about defense.


It was Deron Williams. I'm not trying to make comparisons, I'm just saying Ballhandling, penetration moves are things that can be tightened up. We've seen from game clips that he can handle the pick and roll and he already has a functional floater. That's half the battle right there. It's too early to be worried about anything at this point. He's already shown that he's a heady floor general at 18.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
GustavBahler
Posts: 32033
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Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

8/11/2017  2:24 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.


Can you guess who's college scouting's report this belongs too?

Doesn't have great footspeed or a very quick first step. Most NBA PG's have an extra burst of speed they can switch into to blow by their man and create their own shot, or get into the lane and create for others. He finds ways around that on the NCAA level, using a wide array of body fakes and nifty dribbling to get his defenders off balance. Will he be able to do the same in the NBA? Defensively, he plays very well on the college level, but could have trouble finding the lateral quickness to guard players like Dwyane Wade and others.

Im guessing Rondo. Not going to answer for someone else's bad call. As I said, if Frank cant consistently get to rim, he is going to have to be a great floor general to make up for it. Cant be just about defense.


It was Deron Williams. I'm not trying to make comparisons, I'm just saying Ballhandling, penetration moves are things that can be tightened up. We've seen from game clips that he can handle the pick and roll and he already has a functional floater. That's half the battle right there. It's too early to be worried about anything at this point. He's already shown that he's a heady floor general at 18.

Im a little concerned that this is not already a strength of a PG selected with the 8th pick. If we were talking about a second rounder, that would be another story. I hope you're right about his abilities as a floor general. He's going to need them to be the starting PG.

nykshaknbake
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8/11/2017  5:22 PM
We had a PG recently who couldn't penetrate but was a decent floor general. I think his name was Jose. It didn't work out. If you aren't a threat to drive it's that much harder to find the spacing to pass and shoot. I'm hoping this works out better than a late career Jose Calderon who may play some defense for #8.
Jmpasq
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8/11/2017  6:51 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.

Yep, and I don't see that type of court vision

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meloshouldgo
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8/11/2017  7:04 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.

Yep, and I don't see that type of court vision

Based on what?

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Welpee
Posts: 21335
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8/11/2017  7:08 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.


Can you guess who's college scouting's report this belongs too?

Doesn't have great footspeed or a very quick first step. Most NBA PG's have an extra burst of speed they can switch into to blow by their man and create their own shot, or get into the lane and create for others. He finds ways around that on the NCAA level, using a wide array of body fakes and nifty dribbling to get his defenders off balance. Will he be able to do the same in the NBA? Defensively, he plays very well on the college level, but could have trouble finding the lateral quickness to guard players like Dwyane Wade and others.

Im guessing Rondo. Not going to answer for someone else's bad call. As I said, if Frank cant consistently get to rim, he is going to have to be a great floor general to make up for it. Cant be just about defense.


It was Deron Williams. I'm not trying to make comparisons, I'm just saying Ballhandling, penetration moves are things that can be tightened up. We've seen from game clips that he can handle the pick and roll and he already has a functional floater. That's half the battle right there. It's too early to be worried about anything at this point. He's already shown that he's a heady floor general at 18.
Funny how folks just glossed over your Deron Williams point, a guy who became an all-star and consider for a while on the same level as Chris Paul, to continue their Frank doubter-fest.
Welpee
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8/11/2017  7:10 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.

Yep, and I don't see that type of court vision

Based on what?

A couple minutes of youtube videos.
Uptown
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8/11/2017  7:49 PM
Welpee wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.


Can you guess who's college scouting's report this belongs too?

Doesn't have great footspeed or a very quick first step. Most NBA PG's have an extra burst of speed they can switch into to blow by their man and create their own shot, or get into the lane and create for others. He finds ways around that on the NCAA level, using a wide array of body fakes and nifty dribbling to get his defenders off balance. Will he be able to do the same in the NBA? Defensively, he plays very well on the college level, but could have trouble finding the lateral quickness to guard players like Dwyane Wade and others.

Im guessing Rondo. Not going to answer for someone else's bad call. As I said, if Frank cant consistently get to rim, he is going to have to be a great floor general to make up for it. Cant be just about defense.


It was Deron Williams. I'm not trying to make comparisons, I'm just saying Ballhandling, penetration moves are things that can be tightened up. We've seen from game clips that he can handle the pick and roll and he already has a functional floater. That's half the battle right there. It's too early to be worried about anything at this point. He's already shown that he's a heady floor general at 18.
Funny how folks just glossed over your Deron Williams point, a guy who became an all-star and consider for a while on the same level as Chris Paul, to continue their Frank doubter-fest.

Watching Deron Williams at Illinois, it was clear he was a pure pg, not hybrid or a converted wing. He had full command of the offense that he led to the championship game. From what ive seen of Frank, i do not see any similarities in his game and Williams game coming into the league...

meloshouldgo
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8/11/2017  8:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/11/2017  8:20 PM
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Didn't realize that, wow. Mixed emotions about this article. Glad that Frank is taking developing an NBA game seriously. Not so glad that this part of his game needs a good deal of work at the 8 spot.
Because Monk and Smith didn't have aspect of their game they needed to work on? I look at it this way, I like the fact that his IQ and defense apparently doesn't need a great deal of work.

Of course they do...But under normal circumstances, dribble penetration is not the weakest part of most point guards game.

Well, under normal circumstances a point guard isn't going to be 6'5" with a 7 foot wingspan. I'm not looking for highlight reel plays, I'm looking for a guy who helps facilitate winning. Dennis Johnson wasn't known for his dribble penetration but he helped his teams win. If Frank can be that type of player I'm good.

Thats the go to excuse here. Dribble penetration= highlight reel, not important.

Just like dribble penetration = great point guard. Didn't we have a guy great at dribble penetration last season?

No, not just like that, because Im saying that its an important part of the package of what makes a great PG. You are suggesting that it isn't.

Rose was literally the most selfish PG in the league last season, doubt Frank will go that route. Again, most PGs drafted this high have a certain degree of proficiency in their game that Frank lacks. Frank is a project. Would have prefered less of one at 8 with the alternatives on the board. Its not that I believe that Frank has nothing to offer.

What I'm saying is you can have varying strengths and weaknesses and still be great. If ultimately dribble penetration isn't Frank's strength, that doesn't automatically disqualify him from having the potential to be great.

Understood. If Frank had superior court vision, that would help offset his lack of dribble penetration, but Im not sure he has that. Frank might turn out to be a fast learner, who knows?

Knicks just signed THJ to a big contract, so moving Frank to the wing (if he is more suited for that position) wont be an option, at least as a starter. I hope Sessions is a good mentor, hope Clyde helps Frank as well.

Well I think IQ and feel for the game (as an 18 year old) are suppose to be his strengths coming to the NBA. And regarding the dribble penetration thing, we're talking like it's all or nothing. It's just like defense, some guys are great, some can't play a lick of defense, then there are those guys who are adequate. They may not lock down anybody but they're not hurting you either. I wouldn't think Frank needs to be John Wall getting to the hoop. Now if he's Jose Calderon we may have a problem.

And it's possible we could play THJ at the 3 in a small lineup, something I think Hornacek has done in the past.

The best PGs in this league have no trouble blowing by defenders and getting to the rim. Thats today's NBA. Its a faster league now. Frank is going to have to be able to consistently get to the rim, or he's going to have a hard time holding on to a starting job. Unless he becomes a first rate floor general.


Can you guess who's college scouting's report this belongs too?

Doesn't have great footspeed or a very quick first step. Most NBA PG's have an extra burst of speed they can switch into to blow by their man and create their own shot, or get into the lane and create for others. He finds ways around that on the NCAA level, using a wide array of body fakes and nifty dribbling to get his defenders off balance. Will he be able to do the same in the NBA? Defensively, he plays very well on the college level, but could have trouble finding the lateral quickness to guard players like Dwyane Wade and others.

Im guessing Rondo. Not going to answer for someone else's bad call. As I said, if Frank cant consistently get to rim, he is going to have to be a great floor general to make up for it. Cant be just about defense.


It was Deron Williams. I'm not trying to make comparisons, I'm just saying Ballhandling, penetration moves are things that can be tightened up. We've seen from game clips that he can handle the pick and roll and he already has a functional floater. That's half the battle right there. It's too early to be worried about anything at this point. He's already shown that he's a heady floor general at 18.
Funny how folks just glossed over your Deron Williams point, a guy who became an all-star and consider for a while on the same level as Chris Paul, to continue their Frank doubter-fest.

Watching Deron Williams at Illinois, it was clear he was a pure pg, not hybrid or a converted wing. He had full command of the offense that he led to the championship game. From what ive seen of Frank, i do not see any similarities in his game and Williams game coming into the league...

The only reason for the comparison was to show it's possible to develop dribble penetration later in life. Where did anyone say they had similar games?

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
TheGame
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8/12/2017  2:11 AM
Not much point in worrying about it now. Frank is a Knick. There have been plenty of PGs who did not have great quickness who were none the less effective. Frank has a solid jumper and floater. If his jumper proves reliable in actual games, it will help him create separation because defenders will be forced to close out on him hard. He also looks to be a decent defender. I see a player similar to a George Hill. Solid, if not spectacular, in all facits of the game, with the potential to be an elite shooter. If Frank can become as good as Hill and lockdown the point position for the next ten years, I will be happy, even if Smith turns into a star.
Playoffs or bust
blkexec
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8/12/2017  5:17 AM
Ron Harper was not a PG in college and he led the bulls through multiple championships. We have to get out of the traditional thinking of what a PG looks like. And focus on what a PG like Frank can bring to the PG position.

Similar to how Ball looks long and slow....But he's affective.

Same with Frank....He will look slow, because he's 6'6 and long. But with a jumper (I can attest to this), players will close out on him very quick. You use that to your advantage with dribble drive penetration.

You can and will develop more penetration moves, just being around the league and trainers. Thats the easy part. How Frank handles the NBA mentally is always the challenge for all rookies. Based on history, he should do well in that area, with his pro experience.

Smith vs Frank is the classic comparison of an explosive guard, who relies on his athleticism and a High IQ two way guard, who doesn't need to rely on athleticism or explosiveness to impact the game.

Smith is a typical And One NYC type of PG.....flashy and will be all over sports center. Frank is a championship type PG, who will never get the credit he deserves. With all the injuries to small explosive guards, I rather invest in Frank, who's two way potential is very high. And long defenders, who can shoot and pass is rare!

Q: What is the difference between a Knicks fan and a baby? A: The baby will stop whining after awhile.
nyknickzingis
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8/12/2017  6:42 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/12/2017  6:49 AM
Frank has elite size for his position.
I don't think he needs to be supremely quick to get drives towards the basket.
The fact that he is 6'5 with a 7' wingspan should allow him to get shots off his man in traffic during drives.

He has to be more like a shoot over you than a blow by you guy.
Meaning he needs to take a few dribbles, get closer to the basket, then pull up for a short close jumper or take a contested/challenged layup attempt.

He has to become good at shooting over players, and good at shooting contested layups.

But the main thing for this aspect will be how he does with his jumpshot. Once he makes his jumpshots, his pull ups off the dribble, then his man plays him tight. Allowing for better driving or blow by opportunities. Also when he plays screen and roll with KP, there could be switch ups and Frank will have a big speed advantage on the big switching on to him.

meloshouldgo
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8/12/2017  9:22 AM
blkexec wrote:Ron Harper was not a PG in college and he led the bulls through multiple championships. We have to get out of the traditional thinking of what a PG looks like. And focus on what a PG like Frank can bring to the PG position.

Similar to how Ball looks long and slow....But he's affective.

Same with Frank....He will look slow, because he's 6'6 and long. But with a jumper (I can attest to this), players will close out on him very quick. You use that to your advantage with dribble drive penetration.

You can and will develop more penetration moves, just being around the league and trainers. Thats the easy part. How Frank handles the NBA mentally is always the challenge for all rookies. Based on history, he should do well in that area, with his pro experience.

Smith vs Frank is the classic comparison of an explosive guard, who relies on his athleticism and a High IQ two way guard, who doesn't need to rely on athleticism or explosiveness to impact the game.

Smith is a typical And One NYC type of PG.....flashy and will be all over sports center. Frank is a championship type PG, who will never get the credit he deserves. With all the injuries to small explosive guards, I rather invest in Frank, who's two way potential is very high. And long defenders, who can shoot and pass is rare!

Great post, agree completely

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Vmart
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8/12/2017  10:32 AM
Mark Jackson couldn't blow by a fan sitting in the bleachers yet he went on to have an exceptional career. Curry isn't exceptional at dribble penetration yet he won MVP he isn't known as a fast player.

Ntlikina can shoot and that will open his avenue for penetration to the basket.

MS
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8/12/2017  10:50 AM
I'm sorry but if you an 18 year old kid that's 6'5 with a 7'0 wing span you should be exploding to the rim and throwing it down with ease.

It's only a YouTube, but he looks like the 69% bust potential they highlighted in the draft.

Knickoftime
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8/12/2017  10:57 AM
Man, people are very, very protective of their YouTube scouting skills...
New York Knicks: Frank Ntilikina working on dribble penetration skills

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