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EuroBasket 2017 - KP, Willy and Kuuz
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Knickoftime
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9/6/2017  10:08 AM
knicks1248 wrote:He needs multiple stars around him for him to really shine, saddling him with the weight of a team is assine, and as much as I despise phils triangle, he has said that on numerous occasions.

Which is exactly why so many advocate the Knicks increasing their odds in finding another star via the draft.

Because even if you don't trade Melo, and even if he doesn't exercise his ETO for next year, he'll be gone by the time KP is entering his age 24 season.

Odd that anyone could whiff on the simple logic of that.

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BRIGGS
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9/6/2017  11:03 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I love KP
But he looks about the same as he was 3 months ago.
Physically just a little stronger.

I don't really see any post moves or better ability to do things.

However I will say that KP with a stronger frame, more able to play at a high motor (he gets tired during the NBA season) is an all-star in the East. That's a 20/8/2 player in the league. So I don't really have a problem if that's what we see this coming season. However he doesn't look like he has added too much of post game or any considerable improvement to his skills.

Did we compare Dirk to Hakeen or Ewing and call them failures when they couldn't do post moves?

KP is a SF in a C's length. He will shoot 3's, take guys off the dribble from out on the perimeter, run the floor like a gazelle, sky for a put back rebound and dunk, and all of those types of things.

We shouldn't judge him on what we want him to do but rather what he can excel at with his unicorn gifts.

All that and he's a year younger starting his 3rd season than Ewing was starting his rookie season.

I posted the article months ago about how serious his fatigue issue was when he first started playing. Thats one of the reason he came of the bench, he couldn't last 5 minutes without being totally exhausted. I can't remember what the condition was called, but they worked on it and he's gotten stronger.

He needs multiple stars around him for him to really shine, saddling him with the weight of a team is assine, and as much as I despise phils triangle, he has said that on numerous occasions.

Martin is right, let him be him, he wants to play like a guard or sf, he feels comfortable that way. Let him master his own skill set, then learn some new sht down the line.

Good points. Foul trouble is more concerning, short term, but he will learn that its better to stay on the court and to stay away from silly fouls.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.netsdaily.com/platform/amp/2017/9/5/16254914/in-battle-of-new-york-bigs-mozgov-muscles-porzingis-but-latvia-wins

He is just not a smart defender, and when the game is on the line, he will be on the bench in foul trouble. It's not just bigs either, it's guards, sf, bench players. A 7 3" guy always jumping to block shots. Who is teaching this kid how to defend.... DIrK?

Hes a good player--potentially very good but hes not THE player. He can be an integral "part". I agree with you on the D---that is a conundrum--I dont think either Wily or KP are really good defenders--both at the same time even worse.

RIP Crushalot😞
HofstraBBall
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9/6/2017  11:06 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/6/2017  11:06 AM
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:He needs multiple stars around him for him to really shine, saddling him with the weight of a team is assine, and as much as I despise phils triangle, he has said that on numerous occasions.

Which is exactly why so many advocate the Knicks increasing their odds in finding another star via the draft.

Because even if you don't trade Melo, and even if he doesn't exercise his ETO for next year, he'll be gone by the time KP is entering his age 24 season.

Odd that anyone could whiff on the simple logic of that.

Think we will have to bring in another "star" via free agency. The timelines for a "star" in the draft every 3 years is challenging. What guarantee do we have that KP is staying past his first contract. Especially if Knicks are still busy waiting for that draft star to develop. Agree, Melo is not part of future either way.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
fishmike
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9/6/2017  11:26 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:He needs multiple stars around him for him to really shine, saddling him with the weight of a team is assine, and as much as I despise phils triangle, he has said that on numerous occasions.

Which is exactly why so many advocate the Knicks increasing their odds in finding another star via the draft.

Because even if you don't trade Melo, and even if he doesn't exercise his ETO for next year, he'll be gone by the time KP is entering his age 24 season.

Odd that anyone could whiff on the simple logic of that.

Think we will have to bring in another "star" via free agency. The timelines for a "star" in the draft every 3 years is challenging. What guarantee do we have that KP is staying past his first contract. Especially if Knicks are still busy waiting for that draft star to develop. Agree, Melo is not part of future either way.

its so rare to get a star via FA. When they do leave their teams its for very specific reasons and they go to very specific locations. Bad teams dont sign them.

The only scenario the Knicks land star in FA?
They have to be a desired destination. That means a coach guys want to play for. That means a winning record, usually a VERY winning record (see Boston, GS). You need a guy to have some strife or reason to leave is current team. You really need to offer a lot... how are the Knicks in position to do that?

If FRank/Willy/KP/Timmy/Baker and the kid crew get us 50 wins next year than yea.... guys will want to come. We got a long ways to go. Draft is best bet right now.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Knickoftime
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9/6/2017  11:42 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:What guarantee do we have that KP is staying past his first contract.

This is professional sports. There is no guarantee of anything. One either has to eliminate the premise from any thought process or find another pastime.

That said there is little precedent (if any) for a 1st rounder to play for a QO rather than accepting a max extension.

knicks1248
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9/6/2017  12:23 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/6/2017  12:24 PM
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:He needs multiple stars around him for him to really shine, saddling him with the weight of a team is assine, and as much as I despise phils triangle, he has said that on numerous occasions.

Which is exactly why so many advocate the Knicks increasing their odds in finding another star via the draft.

Because even if you don't trade Melo, and even if he doesn't exercise his ETO for next year, he'll be gone by the time KP is entering his age 24 season.

Odd that anyone could whiff on the simple logic of that.

Think we will have to bring in another "star" via free agency. The timelines for a "star" in the draft every 3 years is challenging. What guarantee do we have that KP is staying past his first contract. Especially if Knicks are still busy waiting for that draft star to develop. Agree, Melo is not part of future either way.

its so rare to get a star via FA. When they do leave their teams its for very specific reasons and they go to very specific locations. Bad teams dont sign them.

The only scenario the Knicks land star in FA?
They have to be a desired destination. That means a coach guys want to play for. That means a winning record, usually a VERY winning record (see Boston, GS). You need a guy to have some strife or reason to leave is current team. You really need to offer a lot... how are the Knicks in position to do that?

If FRank/Willy/KP/Timmy/Baker and the kid crew get us 50 wins next year than yea.... guys will want to come. We got a long ways to go. Draft is best bet right now.

Irving, butler, and paul George just had got traded. All 3 are capable of resigning because they were all traded to good teams, just like when melo was traded here. The future looked promising.

Once the losing gets to the point that you can't take it any longer, and the young guys your developing aren't getting much better, you end up doing exactly what we did to get melo. If we have another bad season with KP having little to no impact, your going to entertain trades.

ES
fishmike
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9/6/2017  12:32 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fishmike wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:He needs multiple stars around him for him to really shine, saddling him with the weight of a team is assine, and as much as I despise phils triangle, he has said that on numerous occasions.

Which is exactly why so many advocate the Knicks increasing their odds in finding another star via the draft.

Because even if you don't trade Melo, and even if he doesn't exercise his ETO for next year, he'll be gone by the time KP is entering his age 24 season.

Odd that anyone could whiff on the simple logic of that.

Think we will have to bring in another "star" via free agency. The timelines for a "star" in the draft every 3 years is challenging. What guarantee do we have that KP is staying past his first contract. Especially if Knicks are still busy waiting for that draft star to develop. Agree, Melo is not part of future either way.

its so rare to get a star via FA. When they do leave their teams its for very specific reasons and they go to very specific locations. Bad teams dont sign them.

The only scenario the Knicks land star in FA?
They have to be a desired destination. That means a coach guys want to play for. That means a winning record, usually a VERY winning record (see Boston, GS). You need a guy to have some strife or reason to leave is current team. You really need to offer a lot... how are the Knicks in position to do that?

If FRank/Willy/KP/Timmy/Baker and the kid crew get us 50 wins next year than yea.... guys will want to come. We got a long ways to go. Draft is best bet right now.

Irving, butler, and paul George just had got traded. All 3 are capable of resigning because they were all traded to good teams, just like when melo was traded here. The future looked promising.

Once the losing gets to the point that you can't take it any longer, and the young guys your developing aren't getting much better, you end up doing exactly what we did to get melo. If we have another bad season with KP having little to no impact, your going to entertain trades.

TRADED. Not the same as FA. What you wrote has nothing to do with the above. We are talking about FREE AGENTS.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Gudris
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9/6/2017  12:43 PM
You people have short memory, Knicks just a month ago was on Irving wishlist, don't be so pessimistic
SupremeCommander
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9/6/2017  2:16 PM
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:this morning/weekend the Post pointed out that the new management has yet to include Kuz in any language about the team's young core
that is quite concerning to me, because he a poor man's Gallo, yet Kuz has a significantly better contract
its a 1 year deal though... Kuz is in his final year. You think they bring him back? Knicks do have some early bird rights so I believe they can match.

Hoopshype states that he has 2 more years on his contract.

let's assume that Kuz is a free agent - I would bring Kuz back. He was a major contributor in the Olympics. He is a major EuroBasket contributor. We have some issues as a result of Phil Jackson, but he always identified talent. Maybe he shouldn't have given them as much money, maybe he should have held onto others... but identifying talent was never an issue. I hope our Princeton lunch club recognizes that. Kuz can ball


for what price and what role? I am not against it, although I am not as high on him as you are. I thought he looked like a nice role player, not a guy I thought was core material.

he's making $3 mil this year and $3.7 mil the season after. He isn't a FA. If he was, I'd probably advocated giving Kuz Baker's money and/or Beasley's contract. I'd let him stay in his same role. If we trade Melo, I could see Kuz starting when there is a scrub at SF and LAnce starting when we need to shut someone down.

I don't see why the Knicks wouldn't make reference to him as part of the core... there were rumors at the deadline that the Suns wanted Kuz and would've included a lat first rounder for him... I have seen Kuz ball internationally and I know he can score. I think he may have struggled making the transition last year. I actually expect great numbers from him and I could see him being a primary second team option for us

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Gudris
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9/6/2017  3:34 PM
Gudris
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9/7/2017  10:16 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/7/2017  10:17 AM
Spain vs Hungary live now http://www.fiba.basketball/ls/#12105&BKM400C14

KP(Latvia) vs Turkey will start today 2pm EST

fishmike
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9/7/2017  11:04 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:this morning/weekend the Post pointed out that the new management has yet to include Kuz in any language about the team's young core
that is quite concerning to me, because he a poor man's Gallo, yet Kuz has a significantly better contract
its a 1 year deal though... Kuz is in his final year. You think they bring him back? Knicks do have some early bird rights so I believe they can match.

Hoopshype states that he has 2 more years on his contract.

let's assume that Kuz is a free agent - I would bring Kuz back. He was a major contributor in the Olympics. He is a major EuroBasket contributor. We have some issues as a result of Phil Jackson, but he always identified talent. Maybe he shouldn't have given them as much money, maybe he should have held onto others... but identifying talent was never an issue. I hope our Princeton lunch club recognizes that. Kuz can ball


for what price and what role? I am not against it, although I am not as high on him as you are. I thought he looked like a nice role player, not a guy I thought was core material.

he's making $3 mil this year and $3.7 mil the season after. He isn't a FA. If he was, I'd probably advocated giving Kuz Baker's money and/or Beasley's contract. I'd let him stay in his same role. If we trade Melo, I could see Kuz starting when there is a scrub at SF and LAnce starting when we need to shut someone down.

I don't see why the Knicks wouldn't make reference to him as part of the core... there were rumors at the deadline that the Suns wanted Kuz and would've included a lat first rounder for him... I have seen Kuz ball internationally and I know he can score. I think he may have struggled making the transition last year. I actually expect great numbers from him and I could see him being a primary second team option for us


Kuz is a FA. Look again. I think you are quoting hoopshype which lists that year's QO. Google it... every site says he signed a 2 year deal.

ESPN lists him as an RFA: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20229609/nba-free-agents-2018-2019
BBref says he's signed through this year and it was a 2 year contract: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmimi01.html

He's an early bird player. Knicks can extend a QO of $3.7mm. At that point Kuz's is an RFA. He can get an offer from another team and see if the Knicks match. He can play for the QO, or he can negotiate a new deal with the Knicks.

If Kuz plays well... lets say his defense is improved, and he gives you 12ppg, 4rebs and shoots 40% from 3 off the bench. Ron Baker's contract probably isnt getting it done. Thats a quality role player which is more like $7-$9mm (MLE territory). So if Kuz gets an offer for 4 years and $35mm? (about $8.5mm average). Do you resign him then or try to keep the books more flexible and let him go?

I dont feel strongly about keeping him or letting him go, but I think the above is more realistic than Ron Baker money. Do you match that? Im curious... I think you are higher on him than I am so Im curios if you would want that matched

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Gudris
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9/7/2017  2:35 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/7/2017  2:39 PM
Fantastic game for KP, after first half 16 points(4 dunks, 83%fg), 2 steals, 2 blocks
http://www.fiba.basketball/ls/#12105&BKM400D15
martin
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9/7/2017  2:59 PM
Gudris wrote:Fantastic game for KP, after first half 16 points(4 dunks, 83%fg), 2 steals, 2 blocks
http://www.fiba.basketball/ls/#12105&BKM400D15

without having seen the game, the rebounding numbers are still troubling. At least 1 of the 2 rebounds was a put back dunk. KP needs to get rebounds

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fishmike
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9/7/2017  3:05 PM
martin wrote:
Gudris wrote:Fantastic game for KP, after first half 16 points(4 dunks, 83%fg), 2 steals, 2 blocks
http://www.fiba.basketball/ls/#12105&BKM400D15

without having seen the game, the rebounding numbers are still troubling. At least 1 of the 2 rebounds was a put back dunk. KP needs to get rebounds


He needs to watch film on KG. After that study Camby before JVG's coaching and after. Those are two guys with similar body types. Its more challenging for guys with his body type to bang. The angles are awkward. When you put your body on someone your looking to close the shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip. Problem is KP's shoulders and hips dont touch other players, so he doesnt have that context and it makes him look weird setting screens and boxing out. Its an aspect of his body he's going to need to work around.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
BRIGGS
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9/7/2017  3:09 PM
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:this morning/weekend the Post pointed out that the new management has yet to include Kuz in any language about the team's young core
that is quite concerning to me, because he a poor man's Gallo, yet Kuz has a significantly better contract
its a 1 year deal though... Kuz is in his final year. You think they bring him back? Knicks do have some early bird rights so I believe they can match.

Hoopshype states that he has 2 more years on his contract.

let's assume that Kuz is a free agent - I would bring Kuz back. He was a major contributor in the Olympics. He is a major EuroBasket contributor. We have some issues as a result of Phil Jackson, but he always identified talent. Maybe he shouldn't have given them as much money, maybe he should have held onto others... but identifying talent was never an issue. I hope our Princeton lunch club recognizes that. Kuz can ball


for what price and what role? I am not against it, although I am not as high on him as you are. I thought he looked like a nice role player, not a guy I thought was core material.

he's making $3 mil this year and $3.7 mil the season after. He isn't a FA. If he was, I'd probably advocated giving Kuz Baker's money and/or Beasley's contract. I'd let him stay in his same role. If we trade Melo, I could see Kuz starting when there is a scrub at SF and LAnce starting when we need to shut someone down.

I don't see why the Knicks wouldn't make reference to him as part of the core... there were rumors at the deadline that the Suns wanted Kuz and would've included a lat first rounder for him... I have seen Kuz ball internationally and I know he can score. I think he may have struggled making the transition last year. I actually expect great numbers from him and I could see him being a primary second team option for us


Kuz is a FA. Look again. I think you are quoting hoopshype which lists that year's QO. Google it... every site says he signed a 2 year deal.

ESPN lists him as an RFA: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20229609/nba-free-agents-2018-2019
BBref says he's signed through this year and it was a 2 year contract: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmimi01.html

He's an early bird player. Knicks can extend a QO of $3.7mm. At that point Kuz's is an RFA. He can get an offer from another team and see if the Knicks match. He can play for the QO, or he can negotiate a new deal with the Knicks.

If Kuz plays well... lets say his defense is improved, and he gives you 12ppg, 4rebs and shoots 40% from 3 off the bench. Ron Baker's contract probably isnt getting it done. Thats a quality role player which is more like $7-$9mm (MLE territory). So if Kuz gets an offer for 4 years and $35mm? (about $8.5mm average). Do you resign him then or try to keep the books more flexible and let him go?

I dont feel strongly about keeping him or letting him go, but I think the above is more realistic than Ron Baker money. Do you match that? Im curious... I think you are higher on him than I am so Im curios if you would want that matched

Where does Kuz play? We have Carmelo Beasley Lance Thomas and then we might play 3 guards anyway at times? Where does Kuz fit? Why dont we trade him out while his stock his pretty high and his contract is reasonable?

RIP Crushalot😞
Gudris
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9/7/2017  3:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/7/2017  3:43 PM
great game by KP, a lot of highlights plays today :)

fishmike
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9/7/2017  3:49 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:this morning/weekend the Post pointed out that the new management has yet to include Kuz in any language about the team's young core
that is quite concerning to me, because he a poor man's Gallo, yet Kuz has a significantly better contract
its a 1 year deal though... Kuz is in his final year. You think they bring him back? Knicks do have some early bird rights so I believe they can match.

Hoopshype states that he has 2 more years on his contract.

let's assume that Kuz is a free agent - I would bring Kuz back. He was a major contributor in the Olympics. He is a major EuroBasket contributor. We have some issues as a result of Phil Jackson, but he always identified talent. Maybe he shouldn't have given them as much money, maybe he should have held onto others... but identifying talent was never an issue. I hope our Princeton lunch club recognizes that. Kuz can ball


for what price and what role? I am not against it, although I am not as high on him as you are. I thought he looked like a nice role player, not a guy I thought was core material.

he's making $3 mil this year and $3.7 mil the season after. He isn't a FA. If he was, I'd probably advocated giving Kuz Baker's money and/or Beasley's contract. I'd let him stay in his same role. If we trade Melo, I could see Kuz starting when there is a scrub at SF and LAnce starting when we need to shut someone down.

I don't see why the Knicks wouldn't make reference to him as part of the core... there were rumors at the deadline that the Suns wanted Kuz and would've included a lat first rounder for him... I have seen Kuz ball internationally and I know he can score. I think he may have struggled making the transition last year. I actually expect great numbers from him and I could see him being a primary second team option for us


Kuz is a FA. Look again. I think you are quoting hoopshype which lists that year's QO. Google it... every site says he signed a 2 year deal.

ESPN lists him as an RFA: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20229609/nba-free-agents-2018-2019
BBref says he's signed through this year and it was a 2 year contract: https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmimi01.html

He's an early bird player. Knicks can extend a QO of $3.7mm. At that point Kuz's is an RFA. He can get an offer from another team and see if the Knicks match. He can play for the QO, or he can negotiate a new deal with the Knicks.

If Kuz plays well... lets say his defense is improved, and he gives you 12ppg, 4rebs and shoots 40% from 3 off the bench. Ron Baker's contract probably isnt getting it done. Thats a quality role player which is more like $7-$9mm (MLE territory). So if Kuz gets an offer for 4 years and $35mm? (about $8.5mm average). Do you resign him then or try to keep the books more flexible and let him go?

I dont feel strongly about keeping him or letting him go, but I think the above is more realistic than Ron Baker money. Do you match that? Im curious... I think you are higher on him than I am so Im curios if you would want that matched

Where does Kuz play? We have Carmelo Beasley Lance Thomas and then we might play 3 guards anyway at times? Where does Kuz fit? Why dont we trade him out while his stock his pretty high and his contract is reasonable?

I dont think his stock is that high. His expiring contract may be a nice piece around the trade deadline. Also maybe Kuz beats those guys out in the rotation. I dont know. Just looking at the scenarios and suggesting why Kuz was not considered part of that young core Mills mentioned.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Gudris
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9/7/2017  4:14 PM

Knickoftime
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9/7/2017  4:20 PM    LAST EDITED: 9/7/2017  4:20 PM
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
Gudris wrote:Fantastic game for KP, after first half 16 points(4 dunks, 83%fg), 2 steals, 2 blocks
http://www.fiba.basketball/ls/#12105&BKM400D15

without having seen the game, the rebounding numbers are still troubling. At least 1 of the 2 rebounds was a put back dunk. KP needs to get rebounds


He needs to watch film on KG. After that study Camby before JVG's coaching and after. Those are two guys with similar body types. Its more challenging for guys with his body type to bang. The angles are awkward. When you put your body on someone your looking to close the shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip. Problem is KP's shoulders and hips dont touch other players, so he doesnt have that context and it makes him look weird setting screens and boxing out. Its an aspect of his body he's going to need to work around.

Rebounding clearly does not come naturally to KP, physically or otherwise. Height is not a cure-all for rebounding. Fans are going to have to be both patient and temper their expectations for his rebounding ceiling.

I already get the sense many Knicks fans are going agonize over what maybe a 5-6 year process of him figuring it all out. The amazing thing is there's not much he can't potentially do. There are dozens of completely different HoF players he can watch film of and try to emulate, but he also needs to translate it pather than just mimic because he genuinely is a completely unique player.

Antetokounmpo took a quantum leap in year 4, and he may just be scratching the surface.

Patience is a virtue.

EuroBasket 2017 - KP, Willy and Kuuz

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