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GoNyGoNyGo
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8/10/2017  1:04 PM
martin wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:It was the Bill Clinton administration that made the deal that led to this. "It's a good deal"

BushJr did little or nothing.

Obama ignored it even more. Actually ignored intel on the little nukes being developed and kicked the problem down the road.

Now Trump has to deal with it. What will happen? Whatever it is Trump will get the blame even thought the problem was caused by the 3 guys before him. (to Bush's credit at least he did call the Norks one of the three "axis of Evil" although he was laughed at for it.)

BTW watch Clinton deliver the speech on the deal, it is eerily similar to the one Obama gave citing his Iran deal. They both say "A Good deal" for America. HA!!

How long before the Iran deal blows up in our faces? Actually not literally.

We do this to ourselves. This goes way beyond politics. It used to be that politics ended on at our shores. No more, I guess.

What was the deal?

Also, what is the Agreed Framework and who walked away from it?

which deal?

Yet another mistake by Dolan. When will it end?
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Vmart
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8/10/2017  1:15 PM
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:This shyt has been going on for so long that it's a bunch of crap at this point. That part of the world is Nuclear so why all the hoopla. All the nations should have put an end to it a long time ago but they didn't the question is why didn't they.

What do you mean by put an end to it?

Regime change?

Economic sanctions via China?

What I'm saying Martin is this should have never come this far. N. Korea has been trying to be Nuclear capable since the 50s and eventually became Nuclear. Yes there should have been sanctions for China and other countries that were part of N Korea becoming Nuclear.

Another case is Iran and they are headed to become Nuvlear. One thing leaders love is a threat. Sanctions rarely work if a country really wants something they can get what they are looking for.

How do you stop a country from becoming nuclear capable? Especially one like N Korea? Where did we forgo opportunity to limit this? Also, is it up to the USA to make sure EVERY country our the planet does not have nuclear capabilities?

There is no way of stopping a country becoming Nuclear like Insaid if they want it bad enough nothing can stop them. This is just inevitable steps taking place and at this point there is nothing anyone can do about N Korea. Obviously China and Russia aren't going to do anything. I don't see why US should be so worried about it.

TheGame
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8/10/2017  1:27 PM
Honestly, I hope Trump creates an even bigger cluster f*** than he has already done. The fact that people still defend this guy amazes me. We have a president in which congress and his staff spend half their time trying explain away or justify the dumb **** that comes out of his mouth every other day, and people seem to be okay with it. Trump makes George Bush II look like a genius. Kim was probably foaming at the mouth waiting to get into it with the idiot Trump because he knew Trump would take the bait. Lest than two hours after Trump dared North Korea to keep making threats these guys threaten to bomb a US territory. Now what is Trump going to do? Every other president had the good sense to ignore North Korea for the most part, and not engage in direct tits for tats with Kim and his predecessors. And the thought that this guy would actually talking about nuclear weapons. What do you think is going to happen when we drop a nuclear bomb on North Korea only a few hundred miles from China. I don't think they are going to sit idly by and let that go down. Maybe getting us into a war with China is the only way people wake up and get rid of Trump.
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martin
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8/10/2017  2:07 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
martin wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:It was the Bill Clinton administration that made the deal that led to this. "It's a good deal"

BushJr did little or nothing.

Obama ignored it even more. Actually ignored intel on the little nukes being developed and kicked the problem down the road.

Now Trump has to deal with it. What will happen? Whatever it is Trump will get the blame even thought the problem was caused by the 3 guys before him. (to Bush's credit at least he did call the Norks one of the three "axis of Evil" although he was laughed at for it.)

BTW watch Clinton deliver the speech on the deal, it is eerily similar to the one Obama gave citing his Iran deal. They both say "A Good deal" for America. HA!!

How long before the Iran deal blows up in our faces? Actually not literally.

We do this to ourselves. This goes way beyond politics. It used to be that politics ended on at our shores. No more, I guess.

What was the deal?

Also, what is the Agreed Framework and who walked away from it?

which deal?

The one you refer Bill making? Or are you asking about Agreed Framework?

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arkrud
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8/10/2017  2:26 PM
TheGame wrote:Honestly, I hope Trump creates an even bigger cluster f*** than he has already done. The fact that people still defend this guy amazes me. We have a president in which congress and his staff spend half their time trying explain away or justify the dumb **** that comes out of his mouth every other day, and people seem to be okay with it. Trump makes George Bush II look like a genius. Kim was probably foaming at the mouth waiting to get into it with the idiot Trump because he knew Trump would take the bait. Lest than two hours after Trump dared North Korea to keep making threats these guys threaten to bomb a US territory. Now what is Trump going to do? Every other president had the good sense to ignore North Korea for the most part, and not engage in direct tits for tats with Kim and his predecessors. And the thought that this guy would actually talking about nuclear weapons. What do you think is going to happen when we drop a nuclear bomb on North Korea only a few hundred miles from China. I don't think they are going to sit idly by and let that go down. Maybe getting us into a war with China is the only way people wake up and get rid of Trump.

There is no need to nuke North.
4-5 thousands of Tomahawks and 10-15 thousand of bombs including couple of hundreds bunker busters will do the trick.
It worked very well with Serbia when we bombed them to the capitulation and the only thing stopped us was Russian marines parachuted to the capital.
Asians only recognize power. Hit them and they will respect you. Otherwise you a weak and vulnerable.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
GoNyGoNyGo
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8/10/2017  2:41 PM
martin wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
martin wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:It was the Bill Clinton administration that made the deal that led to this. "It's a good deal"

BushJr did little or nothing.

Obama ignored it even more. Actually ignored intel on the little nukes being developed and kicked the problem down the road.

Now Trump has to deal with it. What will happen? Whatever it is Trump will get the blame even thought the problem was caused by the 3 guys before him. (to Bush's credit at least he did call the Norks one of the three "axis of Evil" although he was laughed at for it.)

BTW watch Clinton deliver the speech on the deal, it is eerily similar to the one Obama gave citing his Iran deal. They both say "A Good deal" for America. HA!!

How long before the Iran deal blows up in our faces? Actually not literally.

We do this to ourselves. This goes way beyond politics. It used to be that politics ended on at our shores. No more, I guess.

What was the deal?

Also, what is the Agreed Framework and who walked away from it?

which deal?

The one you refer Bill making? Or are you asking about Agreed Framework?

I was asking about Iran or NKorea.

Are you saying the Clinton Administration did not make the deal?


As to the North Korea deal.

Bush was busy with Iraq...the administration did not like the deal, that is true. (Their instincts were right).

Here is a timeline by CNN...posted yesterday. IT contradicts some other things that I have seen recently.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/29/world/asia/north-korea-nuclear-timeline---fast-facts/index.html

Did Bush walk away because they violated first or was it the other way around? Depends on what you read. Having lived through it, I remember that NKorea was skirting the agreement and still trying to produce nukes, so we imposed more sanctions. Is that backing out? As we know, this may or may not have been what happened.

The fact is that deals like this don't work. You cannot trust the other side, ever.

The same thing is happening with Iran now, IMO. We also handed over billions of dollars too...but that's for another day down the road....ehem.


I also found this from 1994. Its written under the microscope of politics then, not today. Admittedly this is not a Clinton friendly site.

http://www.heritage.org/report/the-clinton-nuclear-deal-pyongyang-road-map-progress-or-dead-end-street

Read the whole thing, I think it's balanced but you can make your own judgement. It concludes like this:

CONCLUSION

Former Democratic Congressman Stephen Solarz is one of the few Americans who had the opportunity to meet with the late Kim 11 Sung and other senior North Korean leaders on several occasions. Congressman Solarz has said that his experiences in Pyongyang suggest that North Korea's commitments "have about the same value as Tsar- ist war bonds." The Clinton Administration and the American people should recognize that the October 21 agreement most likely will not protect the important U.S. interest that are at stake in the Korean nuclear standoff. Rather than simply sigh with relief in the wake of the Geneva accords, Washington should prepare to revisit this crisis.

Yet another mistake by Dolan. When will it end?
PresIke
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8/10/2017  2:59 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/10/2017  3:04 PM
Out of control crazy talk of crazy talk. To say we are doomed...I don't think is an exaggeration.

I love how we have to have the freakin Secretary of State calm us down, or of course the NY Times trying to calm us down again.

They did it with a garbage op-ed after Trump was elected, saying you think a lot will change but the Prez doesn't have that much power...blah blah. And now we get another one now.

I know they go after him a lot, and their main editorial points out how dangerous this is, but we are run by a teenager, who is backed by a bunch of teenagers who think the world is a video game, old Western, or sports game.

I can't believe I am actually wishing we had Bush II or Reagan in charge right now.

This is a terribly complex situation with many countries with differing and competing interests in the global Game of Thrones that is being played out, but are we sure it's Kim Jong Un that's the mad king and not Trump?

I cannot believe Earth is relying on a game of chicken with a so-called leading power and a nation that is about as loose a cannon as it gets. The Cuban Missle crisis seems less concerning than this because at least there seemed to be adults in charge.

Instead we get Tillerson basically acting like the social worker trying to deescalate between some angry teenagers who want to kill each other to show who's tougher.

I am as angry at Trump as ever for risking humanity over a pissing contest. Sure, NK doesn't want to destroy itself, but this is far more complex than this. China, in particular, would be infuriated if we send nukes at NK...so would South Korea, Japan, Russia...I don't know what the strategy is other than "Let's just see what happens."

Then you THREATEN another state as a leading nation such as the U.S....You have to back up your words.

What a disgrace. I am flabbergasted, and it seems we won't stop until something horrific happens or we by some miracle survive this insanity.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
toodarkmark
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8/10/2017  3:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/10/2017  3:04 PM
martin wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Man they need to seriously talk this thing down.
It's been a long term problem
Tjats come to a head

And it's probably the most serious issue in our lifetimes

Were you thinking about Trump's foreign policy experience and general temperament when you voted for him?

Totally. 100s of ex military people said it was dangerous to let Trump near the Nuclear Codes. People knew he would start a nuclear war. Now you're worried? Please. You fell for the Hillary being tired and sick BS, and you fell for every other thing the snake oil salesmen had to give.

This thing that's happening, its on you, dawg.

I don't care what people think. People are stupid. - Charles Barkley
PresIke
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8/10/2017  3:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/10/2017  3:15 PM
BigRedDog wrote:Whats the answer. Do nothing now and just let them keep advancing their technology and building up their nuclear arsenal? Very difficult decisions.

Do "nothing."

Right, so the only thing that qualifies as something is to threaten them in this manner?

P.S. you know who sounded a lot like Trump?

Truman just before we dropped a nuclear bomb on Nagasaki (go to minute 2:05):

Sound familiar?

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
TheGame
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8/10/2017  3:53 PM
PresIke wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:Whats the answer. Do nothing now and just let them keep advancing their technology and building up their nuclear arsenal? Very difficult decisions.

Do "nothing."

Right, so the only thing that qualifies as something is to threaten them in this manner?

P.S. you know who sounded a lot like Trump?

Truman just before we dropped a nuclear bomb on Nagasaki (go to minute 2:05):

Sound familiar?

No, you go in there and sabotage their facilities if need be with a seal team and then deny the **** every happened. You do not go making stupid statements about nukes and in engaging with a kid leader who is only interested in getting into a public tit for tat to show his people how brave and powerful he is. The problem is you have two loud mouths and Trump is going to push Kim to do something stupid like bomb a US territory and then we will have to strike back, and then they strike back and soon China gets involved and if China has any reaction other than we are staying out of it, then we risk getting into it with China. Now do I think we are going to go to war with China. I doubt it, but once you start going down that path, things become unpredictable. What if we try to remove Kim from power and China sends in troops to defend. All it takes is a few chinese soldiers or American soldiers getting killed and you have now started World War III.

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martin
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8/10/2017  4:02 PM
TheGame wrote:
PresIke wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:Whats the answer. Do nothing now and just let them keep advancing their technology and building up their nuclear arsenal? Very difficult decisions.

Do "nothing."

Right, so the only thing that qualifies as something is to threaten them in this manner?

P.S. you know who sounded a lot like Trump?

Truman just before we dropped a nuclear bomb on Nagasaki (go to minute 2:05):

Sound familiar?

No, you go in there and sabotage their facilities if need be with a seal team and then deny the **** every happened. You do not go making stupid statements about nukes and in engaging with a kid leader who is only interested in getting into a public tit for tat to show his people how brave and powerful he is. The problem is you have two loud mouths and Trump is going to push Kim to do something stupid like bomb a US territory and then we will have to strike back, and then they strike back and soon China gets involved and if China has any reaction other than we are staying out of it, then we risk getting into it with China. Now do I think we are going to go to war with China. I doubt it, but once you start going down that path, things become unpredictable. What if we try to remove Kim from power and China sends in troops to defend. All it takes is a few chinese soldiers or American soldiers getting killed and you have now started World War III.

You can't really do that in NKorea, they have walled themselves off

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martin
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8/10/2017  4:04 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
martin wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:
martin wrote:
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:It was the Bill Clinton administration that made the deal that led to this. "It's a good deal"

BushJr did little or nothing.

Obama ignored it even more. Actually ignored intel on the little nukes being developed and kicked the problem down the road.

Now Trump has to deal with it. What will happen? Whatever it is Trump will get the blame even thought the problem was caused by the 3 guys before him. (to Bush's credit at least he did call the Norks one of the three "axis of Evil" although he was laughed at for it.)

BTW watch Clinton deliver the speech on the deal, it is eerily similar to the one Obama gave citing his Iran deal. They both say "A Good deal" for America. HA!!

How long before the Iran deal blows up in our faces? Actually not literally.

We do this to ourselves. This goes way beyond politics. It used to be that politics ended on at our shores. No more, I guess.

What was the deal?

Also, what is the Agreed Framework and who walked away from it?

which deal?

The one you refer Bill making? Or are you asking about Agreed Framework?

I was asking about Iran or NKorea.

Are you saying the Clinton Administration did not make the deal?


As to the North Korea deal.

Bush was busy with Iraq...the administration did not like the deal, that is true. (Their instincts were right).

Here is a timeline by CNN...posted yesterday. IT contradicts some other things that I have seen recently.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/29/world/asia/north-korea-nuclear-timeline---fast-facts/index.html

Did Bush walk away because they violated first or was it the other way around? Depends on what you read. Having lived through it, I remember that NKorea was skirting the agreement and still trying to produce nukes, so we imposed more sanctions. Is that backing out? As we know, this may or may not have been what happened.

The fact is that deals like this don't work. You cannot trust the other side, ever.

The same thing is happening with Iran now, IMO. We also handed over billions of dollars too...but that's for another day down the road....ehem.


I also found this from 1994. Its written under the microscope of politics then, not today. Admittedly this is not a Clinton friendly site.

http://www.heritage.org/report/the-clinton-nuclear-deal-pyongyang-road-map-progress-or-dead-end-street

Read the whole thing, I think it's balanced but you can make your own judgement. It concludes like this:

CONCLUSION

Former Democratic Congressman Stephen Solarz is one of the few Americans who had the opportunity to meet with the late Kim 11 Sung and other senior North Korean leaders on several occasions. Congressman Solarz has said that his experiences in Pyongyang suggest that North Korea's commitments "have about the same value as Tsar- ist war bonds." The Clinton Administration and the American people should recognize that the October 21 agreement most likely will not protect the important U.S. interest that are at stake in the Korean nuclear standoff. Rather than simply sigh with relief in the wake of the Geneva accords, Washington should prepare to revisit this crisis.

I am asking you about what deal Clinton made. I don't know what you are referring to.

I am also asking you your background on Agreed Framework

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Paris907
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8/10/2017  4:17 PM
Part of leadership is assembling a team. He's put together the best national security team in many decades.
meloshouldgo
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8/11/2017  7:01 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/11/2017  7:05 AM
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:This shyt has been going on for so long that it's a bunch of crap at this point. That part of the world is Nuclear so why all the hoopla. All the nations should have put an end to it a long time ago but they didn't the question is why didn't they.

What do you mean by put an end to it?

Regime change?

Economic sanctions via China?

What I'm saying Martin is this should have never come this far. N. Korea has been trying to be Nuclear capable since the 50s and eventually became Nuclear. Yes there should have been sanctions for China and other countries that were part of N Korea becoming Nuclear.

Another case is Iran and they are headed to become Nuvlear. One thing leaders love is a threat. Sanctions rarely work if a country really wants something they can get what they are looking for.

You can't stop sovereign countries from doing what they are doing unless you are willing to declare war on them. If that is what you are referring to it would be more useless conflict and lives being lost like Iraq and Afghanistan wars. The idea that any country will simply keel over and stop their pursuit of nuclear power if they are inclined to pursue it in the first place is not validated by reason. I agree sanctions don't work, but neither do threats or all out war. N Korea is a tiny nation with minimal resources, they don't have a bargaining chip at the table but they have to compete with other nations for resources, this is quite literally one of the easiest way to get some leverage.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
Moonangie
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8/11/2017  9:02 AM
NK has always played with dangerous rhetoric. That's their schtick.

What's new is having a childlike President who lacks any foreign policy experience, rules as an authoritarian, and ALSO plays with dangerous rhetoric.

It's a new day in America.

Welpee
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8/11/2017  9:16 AM
TheGame wrote:Honestly, I hope Trump creates an even bigger cluster f*** than he has already done.
That's easy to say if you don't have kids and other loved ones in the military.
JesseDark
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8/11/2017  9:38 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Man they need to seriously talk this thing down.
It's been a long term problem
Tjats come to a head

And it's probably the most serious issue in our lifetimes

Don't turn chicken hawk now, just blow it off as fake news. Many on this board were calling out the naivete of Trump supporters, like you, who should have known better. The actions of the N. Korean leader probably would have been the same no matter who was elected, but we as country are paying a price for electing a novice with no diplomatic instincts

Bring back dee-fense
Vmart
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8/11/2017  9:56 AM
meloshouldgo wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:This shyt has been going on for so long that it's a bunch of crap at this point. That part of the world is Nuclear so why all the hoopla. All the nations should have put an end to it a long time ago but they didn't the question is why didn't they.

What do you mean by put an end to it?

Regime change?

Economic sanctions via China?

What I'm saying Martin is this should have never come this far. N. Korea has been trying to be Nuclear capable since the 50s and eventually became Nuclear. Yes there should have been sanctions for China and other countries that were part of N Korea becoming Nuclear.

Another case is Iran and they are headed to become Nuvlear. One thing leaders love is a threat. Sanctions rarely work if a country really wants something they can get what they are looking for.

You can't stop sovereign countries from doing what they are doing unless you are willing to declare war on them. If that is what you are referring to it would be more useless conflict and lives being lost like Iraq and Afghanistan wars. The idea that any country will simply keel over and stop their pursuit of nuclear power if they are inclined to pursue it in the first place is not validated by reason. I agree sanctions don't work, but neither do threats or all out war. N Korea is a tiny nation with minimal resources, they don't have a bargaining chip at the table but they have to compete with other nations for resources, this is quite literally one of the easiest way to get some leverage.

That is precisely what you have to do. Just like USA stopped Japan from having a military force. This is China's to clean up Not USA. If China doesn't want to do it then yes sanctions should be placed on China.

Gudris
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8/11/2017  10:15 AM
I hope Trump is going to kick that idiot ass very soon, dozens of millions of people are living like **** in N Korea, because of that stupid commies regime, it is time to give that people a freedom
BRIGGS
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8/11/2017  10:26 AM
This is a 30 year problem coming to a head.
I'd prefer to talk it down -- I hope they can-- I don't want to see anyone hurt

Suggesting this is Trumps fault is insane. If they don't want to talk and cat budge off their ambitions-- then whatever happens happens.

I'd still try to talk this down if it can be done-- I'm sure we are trying.

I don't think navy seals can do shy here-- this would take unconventional war fair.

I'd play by the isis playbook here-- I'd have 7-10 regular airliners filled with nuclear warheads take flight in normal manner from various sections of the hemispshere -- jam their radars and ram those ****ers dead into their highest military targets

ot North Korea

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