knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Making the playoffs has way more benefits than then a lottery pick

Like what exactly. Go ahead lay them out

Dude we won 31 games last year in one of the most toxic environments in the league, not to mention the ever changing triangle.

Were coming back with primarily the same roster and a upgrade a sg, sf(to replace lance), pg and no triangle, and no meddling president. AT some point we will be able to sign or trade for the wing player/star to replace melo.

WHY would you want your young guys and coaching staff to go through another miserable, depressing, losing culture, bad vibes, low energy, toxic locker room season, only to be rewarded with a role player.

You can have a healthy culture in a growing .400 team that's headed in the right direction or a terrible culture in a team that makes the playoffs. You're confusing two separate issues. The win total doesn't define the culture of the team. The mindset of the players, coaches, and front office does.

so if we make the playoffs that's a bad thing?

Not necessarily. The ultimate goal is to keep acquiring high-end talent. The top of the draft is clearly a way to do that. The ultimate question is do the KNicks have enough talent NOW to one day become a legitimate contender only by adding free agents or draft picks numbers 15 to 30 to the roster.

You can never predict what superstars may or may not sign as agents, but this roster plus backend first rounders doesn't seem like the formula for a legitimate contender.

you can still trade up in the draft and you already know the players and coaching staff are coming in with one goal in mind..MAKE THE PLAYOFFS..

At a cost.

so to sit here and talk about blowing it up, or tanking is kind of silly, because you know that's not happening. I would rather see our role players and young guys step up and increase their value so they become assets. They had zero value this off season, which is why we couldn't trade them

This argument makes no more sense than the first time you argued it. Kyle o'quinn and Courtney Lee' s "values" are not tied to the Knicks win-loss record. The last two number one draft picks came from teams that didn't make the NCAA tournament. Teams scout and evaluate talent.

IF melo is not traded, do you really think were bad enough to get a top 10 pick, let alone top 5

The statistical models that were right the last two years that were indifferent to environments or systems are pegging the Knicks as a 30 team again.

Knickoftime wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Making the playoffs has way more benefits than then a lottery pick

Like what exactly. Go ahead lay them out

Dude we won 31 games last year in one of the most toxic environments in the league, not to mention the ever changing triangle.

Were coming back with primarily the same roster and a upgrade a sg, sf(to replace lance), pg and no triangle, and no meddling president. AT some point we will be able to sign or trade for the wing player/star to replace melo.

WHY would you want your young guys and coaching staff to go through another miserable, depressing, losing culture, bad vibes, low energy, toxic locker room season, only to be rewarded with a role player.

You can have a healthy culture in a growing .400 team that's headed in the right direction or a terrible culture in a team that makes the playoffs. You're confusing two separate issues. The win total doesn't define the culture of the team. The mindset of the players, coaches, and front office does.

so if we make the playoffs that's a bad thing?

Not necessarily. The ultimate goal is to keep acquiring high-end talent. The top of the draft is clearly a way to do that. The ultimate question is do the KNicks have enough talent NOW to one day become a legitimate contender only by adding free agents or draft picks numbers 15 to 30 to the roster.

You can never predict what superstars may or may not sign as agents, but this roster plus backend first rounders doesn't seem like the formula for a legitimate contender.

you can still trade up in the draft and you already know the players and coaching staff are coming in with one goal in mind..MAKE THE PLAYOFFS..

At a cost.

so to sit here and talk about blowing it up, or tanking is kind of silly, because you know that's not happening. I would rather see our role players and young guys step up and increase their value so they become assets. They had zero value this off season, which is why we couldn't trade them

This argument makes no more sense than the first time you argued it. Kyle o'quinn and Courtney Lee' s "values" are not tied to the Knicks win-loss record. The last two number one draft picks came from teams that didn't make the NCAA tournament. Teams scout and evaluate talent.

IF melo is not traded, do you really think were bad enough to get a top 10 pick, let alone top 5

The statistical models that were right the last two years that were indifferent to environments or systems are pegging the Knicks as a 30 team again.

To add to this.

If we made the playoffs because KP & Willy turned into a dynamic duo. Frank was able to hit the ground running. Hardaway & Baker brought their games to new levels. And JH just clicked with the team elevating his coaching. Then we would all take it. Getting KP as much high end talent at cost control as possible so that when he enters his prime he is able to have tons of help is what most are hoping for though.

Trading up in the draft is even more risking since your giving up even more assets in a crap shoot(or for that *role player*).

Not many people have been talking about tanking in that light either. Martin said it would be better for the Knicks in the long run if they were able to add a top 10 lotto pick with high upside. Nowhere did he state that he wants the Knicks to flat out tank the season away. Other posters contributed by stating they don't think the Knicks are good enough to make the playoffs regardless and named teams that are in better position to do so than the Knicks. Seems more like posters are just understanding the situation.

Knicks adding another lottery pick would give them a cost controlled player with upside without having to tap into their cap space or trade other assets. This would give the Knicks the flexibility to use the cap space and future draft picks to add more high end talent on top of the lotto pick with upside. Possibly through trades. Which could turn the Knicks into a team that could have a 10 yr run giving Knicks1248 his joy back.

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Making the playoffs has way more benefits than then a lottery pick

Like what exactly. Go ahead lay them out

Dude we won 31 games last year in one of the most toxic environments in the league, not to mention the ever changing triangle.

Were coming back with primarily the same roster and a upgrade a sg, sf(to replace lance), pg and no triangle, and no meddling president. AT some point we will be able to sign or trade for the wing player/star to replace melo.

WHY would you want your young guys and coaching staff to go through another miserable, depressing, losing culture, bad vibes, low energy, toxic locker room season, only to be rewarded with a role player.

You can have a healthy culture in a growing .400 team that's headed in the right direction or a terrible culture in a team that makes the playoffs. You're confusing two separate issues. The win total doesn't define the culture of the team. The mindset of the players, coaches, and front office does.

so if we make the playoffs that's a bad thing?

you can still trade up in the draft and you already know the players and coaching staff are coming in with one goal in mind..MAKE THE PLAYOFFS..

so to sit here and talk about blowing it up, or tanking is kind of silly, because you know that's not happening. I would rather see our role players and young guys step up and increase their value so they become assets. They had zero value this off season, which is why we couldn't trade them

IF melo is not traded, do you really think were bad enough to get a top 10 pick, let alone top 5

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Making the playoffs has way more benefits than then a lottery pick

Like what exactly. Go ahead lay them out

Dude we won 31 games last year in one of the most toxic environments in the league, not to mention the ever changing triangle.

Were coming back with primarily the same roster and a upgrade a sg, sf(to replace lance), pg and no triangle, and no meddling president. AT some point we will be able to sign or trade for the wing player/star to replace melo.

WHY would you want your young guys and coaching staff to go through another miserable, depressing, losing culture, bad vibes, low energy, toxic locker room season, only to be rewarded with a role player.

You can have a healthy culture in a growing .400 team that's headed in the right direction or a terrible culture in a team that makes the playoffs. You're confusing two separate issues. The win total doesn't define the culture of the team. The mindset of the players, coaches, and front office does.

so if we make the playoffs that's a bad thing?

you can still trade up in the draft and you already know the players and coaching staff are coming in with one goal in mind..MAKE THE PLAYOFFS..

so to sit here and talk about blowing it up, or tanking is kind of silly, because you know that's not happening. I would rather see our role players and young guys step up and increase their value so they become assets. They had zero value this off season, which is why we couldn't trade them

IF melo is not traded, do you really think were bad enough to get a top 10 pick, let alone top 5

Making the playoffs is not necessarily good or bad. It depends on too many other factors. If they starphuck their way into a brief playoff appearance along the lines of Marbury's 2003-4 Knicks, it is a bad thing - worse than a growing team that has a couple less wins and misses the playoffs.

what exactly is your definition of starphuck, is it trading for a player like PG13, Kd, Irving, labron, Aldridge.

was the knicks starphuckng when they traded for monore and won a championship..

Your cute to find an instance that suits your debate. Fact is, KNicks gave up 2 bench players and cash to get Earl.
How they do that?
Leverage!!!! It was the ABA!!!! Earl could not leave as there was no free agency but he could jump leagues.
http://knickerblogger.net/unsung-knick-history-how-the-pacers-helped-the-knicks-get-a-pearl/
so do yourself a favor and understand that if you can get Kyrie for Lance and KOQ, which was basically Mike Riordan and Dave Stallworth then not its not a starphuck.
If the knicks gave up key parts, or even Cazzie who was coming off the bench (he was used in trade to get Jerry Lucas!!!) then the knicks perhaps don't the run(s) they made.
If Monroe disobeyed Red and got him fired. Thats a starphuck. If earl did not want to share with clyde, thats a starphuch.
So no, Earl was not but the conditions by which we obtained him via trade had a lot to do with that.

and........................Knicks were just one season removed from a championship!!!! Was it a starphuch when Durant joined the Warriors?
Why? Got him for nothing and Warriors had been to two straight finals winning one.
So a starphuch is when the Hype does not meet the reality.

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Making the playoffs has way more benefits than then a lottery pick

Like what exactly. Go ahead lay them out

Dude we won 31 games last year in one of the most toxic environments in the league, not to mention the ever changing triangle.

Were coming back with primarily the same roster and a upgrade a sg, sf(to replace lance), pg and no triangle, and no meddling president. AT some point we will be able to sign or trade for the wing player/star to replace melo.

WHY would you want your young guys and coaching staff to go through another miserable, depressing, losing culture, bad vibes, low energy, toxic locker room season, only to be rewarded with a role player.

You can have a healthy culture in a growing .400 team that's headed in the right direction or a terrible culture in a team that makes the playoffs. You're confusing two separate issues. The win total doesn't define the culture of the team. The mindset of the players, coaches, and front office does.

so if we make the playoffs that's a bad thing?

you can still trade up in the draft and you already know the players and coaching staff are coming in with one goal in mind..MAKE THE PLAYOFFS..

so to sit here and talk about blowing it up, or tanking is kind of silly, because you know that's not happening. I would rather see our role players and young guys step up and increase their value so they become assets. They had zero value this off season, which is why we couldn't trade them

IF melo is not traded, do you really think were bad enough to get a top 10 pick, let alone top 5

Making the playoffs is not necessarily good or bad. It depends on too many other factors. If they starphuck their way into a brief playoff appearance along the lines of Marbury's 2003-4 Knicks, it is a bad thing - worse than a growing team that has a couple less wins and misses the playoffs.

what exactly is your definition of starphuck, is it trading for a player like PG13, Kd, Irving, labron, Aldridge.

was the knicks starphuckng when they traded for monore and won a championship..

Starphucking describes the transaction - not just the player but what was given up to get them and how much you're paying them.

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Making the playoffs has way more benefits than then a lottery pick

Like what exactly. Go ahead lay them out

Dude we won 31 games last year in one of the most toxic environments in the league, not to mention the ever changing triangle.

Were coming back with primarily the same roster and a upgrade a sg, sf(to replace lance), pg and no triangle, and no meddling president. AT some point we will be able to sign or trade for the wing player/star to replace melo.

WHY would you want your young guys and coaching staff to go through another miserable, depressing, losing culture, bad vibes, low energy, toxic locker room season, only to be rewarded with a role player.

You can have a healthy culture in a growing .400 team that's headed in the right direction or a terrible culture in a team that makes the playoffs. You're confusing two separate issues. The win total doesn't define the culture of the team. The mindset of the players, coaches, and front office does.

so if we make the playoffs that's a bad thing?

you can still trade up in the draft and you already know the players and coaching staff are coming in with one goal in mind..MAKE THE PLAYOFFS..

so to sit here and talk about blowing it up, or tanking is kind of silly, because you know that's not happening. I would rather see our role players and young guys step up and increase their value so they become assets. They had zero value this off season, which is why we couldn't trade them

IF melo is not traded, do you really think were bad enough to get a top 10 pick, let alone top 5

Making the playoffs is not necessarily good or bad. It depends on too many other factors. If they starphuck their way into a brief playoff appearance along the lines of Marbury's 2003-4 Knicks, it is a bad thing - worse than a growing team that has a couple less wins and misses the playoffs.

what exactly is your definition of starphuck, is it trading for a player like PG13, Kd, Irving, labron, Aldridge.

was the knicks starphuckng when they traded for monore and won a championship..

Starphuck - Overpaying for an overrated player

Starphucking describes the transaction - not just the player but what was given up to get them and how much you're paying them.

Great description professor!!!

Starphuck is the phrase you use to label any trade you don't like that involves a player that has a recognizable name. You can also change the word to a noun by adding -er to it to troll people who don't agree with you.

nixluva wrote:In truth there are so few transformational players in this league. Just playing to hit the Lottery guarantees NOTHING. If you truly stink and end up there SO BE IT. I don't think the Knicks are at that stage anymore. I think that the young talent will play well enough to be competitive and contend for a playoff spot.

If they fall short then they hit the Lottery but don't expect a top 5 losing team. This team is more likely to be a bit better than last season primarily from internal growth and better harmony between the Coach and players. The RESISTANT personalities are mostly gone.

The key is better production from the returning young guys.

Rk		        Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	USG%	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48▼	 	
1  Kyle O'Quinn	        26	79	1229	20.5	.552	18.5	2.1	1.8	3.9	.151	
2  Willy Hernangomez	22	72	1324	19.0	.564	20.3	1.8	1.6	3.4	.123	
3  Joakim Noah	        31	46	1015	15.2	.491	12.6	1.0	1.2	2.2	.106
4  Kristaps Porzingis	21	66	2164	17.4	.546	24.3	2.4	2.1	4.5	.100	
5  Carmelo Anthony	32	74	2538	17.9	.535	29.1	3.2	1.5	4.7	.089	
6  Courtney Lee	        31	77	2459	12.2	.559	14.4	3.1	1.1	4.2	.081
7  Chasson Randle	23	18	225	12.3	.555	19.6	0.3	0.1	0.4	.075	
8  Justin Holiday	27	82	1639	12.7	.549	16.9	1.3	1.2	2.5	.073
9  Derrick Rose	        28	64	2082	17.0	.530	25.7	2.4	0.6	3.0	.068
10 Maurice Ndour	24	32	331	11.3	.503	14.3	0.1	0.3	0.4	.059
11 Mindaugas Kuzminskas	27	68	1016	12.4	.533	19.2	0.8	0.4	1.2	.055
12 Brandon Jennings	27	58	1428	12.7	.508	18.1	0.8	0.7	1.5	.052
13 Marshall Plumlee	24	21	170	10.9	.521	12.8	0.0	0.1	0.2	.048
14 Lance Thomas	        28	46	968	8.4	.516	13.1	0.6	0.4	0.9	.046
15 Sasha Vujacic	32	42	408	8.6	.423	17.3	-0.1	0.2	0.1	.014
16 Ron Baker	        23	52	857	7.5	.456	14.8	-0.6	0.5	-0.1	-0.008

Tim Hardaway Jr. looks like he should be able to produce at a slightly higher level than Melo so we don't lose that production. The hope is that he continues to improve and become a better than average player.

                Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	USG%	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48▼
Tim Hardway	24	79	2154	15.2	.568    22.5	2.7	2.1	4.8	.107

Here's the thing, Drafted young players can take YEARS to reach the point where they produce at an impact level consistently. Any kid we draft next year will likely be 19 or 20 and in need of development rather than be an immediate impact player. That kid would be years from developing into an impact player. There's no instant SAVIOR coming thru the draft!

The Knicks adding young vets are speeding up the process of this team developing. That's why they have strong interest in Kyrie.

There are no guarantees in professional sports, that isn't the point.

And again, methodology that didn't care about what system the Knicks ran and didn't care what their environment was like pegged their win-loss record the last two seasons. They're not optimistic for this one.

As to speeding up the process of this team developing, there is no evidence that the process has begun yet other than theory. It actually has to happen before we can say it's happening.

Knickoftime wrote:

nixluva wrote:In truth there are so few transformational players in this league. Just playing to hit the Lottery guarantees NOTHING. If you truly stink and end up there SO BE IT. I don't think the Knicks are at that stage anymore. I think that the young talent will play well enough to be competitive and contend for a playoff spot.

If they fall short then they hit the Lottery but don't expect a top 5 losing team. This team is more likely to be a bit better than last season primarily from internal growth and better harmony between the Coach and players. The RESISTANT personalities are mostly gone.

The key is better production from the returning young guys.

Rk		        Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	USG%	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48▼	 	
1  Kyle O'Quinn	        26	79	1229	20.5	.552	18.5	2.1	1.8	3.9	.151	
2  Willy Hernangomez	22	72	1324	19.0	.564	20.3	1.8	1.6	3.4	.123	
3  Joakim Noah	        31	46	1015	15.2	.491	12.6	1.0	1.2	2.2	.106
4  Kristaps Porzingis	21	66	2164	17.4	.546	24.3	2.4	2.1	4.5	.100	
5  Carmelo Anthony	32	74	2538	17.9	.535	29.1	3.2	1.5	4.7	.089	
6  Courtney Lee	        31	77	2459	12.2	.559	14.4	3.1	1.1	4.2	.081
7  Chasson Randle	23	18	225	12.3	.555	19.6	0.3	0.1	0.4	.075	
8  Justin Holiday	27	82	1639	12.7	.549	16.9	1.3	1.2	2.5	.073
9  Derrick Rose	        28	64	2082	17.0	.530	25.7	2.4	0.6	3.0	.068
10 Maurice Ndour	24	32	331	11.3	.503	14.3	0.1	0.3	0.4	.059
11 Mindaugas Kuzminskas	27	68	1016	12.4	.533	19.2	0.8	0.4	1.2	.055
12 Brandon Jennings	27	58	1428	12.7	.508	18.1	0.8	0.7	1.5	.052
13 Marshall Plumlee	24	21	170	10.9	.521	12.8	0.0	0.1	0.2	.048
14 Lance Thomas	        28	46	968	8.4	.516	13.1	0.6	0.4	0.9	.046
15 Sasha Vujacic	32	42	408	8.6	.423	17.3	-0.1	0.2	0.1	.014
16 Ron Baker	        23	52	857	7.5	.456	14.8	-0.6	0.5	-0.1	-0.008

Tim Hardaway Jr. looks like he should be able to produce at a slightly higher level than Melo so we don't lose that production. The hope is that he continues to improve and become a better than average player.

                Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	USG%	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48▼
Tim Hardway	24	79	2154	15.2	.568    22.5	2.7	2.1	4.8	.107

Here's the thing, Drafted young players can take YEARS to reach the point where they produce at an impact level consistently. Any kid we draft next year will likely be 19 or 20 and in need of development rather than be an immediate impact player. That kid would be years from developing into an impact player. There's no instant SAVIOR coming thru the draft!

The Knicks adding young vets are speeding up the process of this team developing. That's why they have strong interest in Kyrie.

There are no guarantees in professional sports, that isn't the point.

And again, methodology that didn't care about what system the Knicks ran and didn't care what their environment was like pegged their win-loss record the last two seasons. They're not optimistic for this one.

As to speeding up the process of this team developing, there is no evidence that the process has begun yet other than theory. It actually has to happen before we can say it's happening.

The process of adding and developing talent that can be part of the future has been sped up by adding a kid like THJ. THJ is 25 and not 19. He's already gone thru a certain level of development and improved. The Knicks need to develop impact talent so YES it speeds up the process when you can acquire young vets who have talent and more ready to take on a lead role.

joec32033 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Making the playoffs has way more benefits than then a lottery pick

Like what exactly. Go ahead lay them out

Dude we won 31 games last year in one of the most toxic environments in the league, not to mention the ever changing triangle.

Were coming back with primarily the same roster and a upgrade a sg, sf(to replace lance), pg and no triangle, and no meddling president. AT some point we will be able to sign or trade for the wing player/star to replace melo.

WHY would you want your young guys and coaching staff to go through another miserable, depressing, losing culture, bad vibes, low energy, toxic locker room season, only to be rewarded with a role player.

You can have a healthy culture in a growing .400 team that's headed in the right direction or a terrible culture in a team that makes the playoffs. You're confusing two separate issues. The win total doesn't define the culture of the team. The mindset of the players, coaches, and front office does.

so if we make the playoffs that's a bad thing?

you can still trade up in the draft and you already know the players and coaching staff are coming in with one goal in mind..MAKE THE PLAYOFFS..

so to sit here and talk about blowing it up, or tanking is kind of silly, because you know that's not happening. I would rather see our role players and young guys step up and increase their value so they become assets. They had zero value this off season, which is why we couldn't trade them

IF melo is not traded, do you really think were bad enough to get a top 10 pick, let alone top 5

Making the playoffs is not necessarily good or bad. It depends on too many other factors. If they starphuck their way into a brief playoff appearance along the lines of Marbury's 2003-4 Knicks, it is a bad thing - worse than a growing team that has a couple less wins and misses the playoffs.

what exactly is your definition of starphuck, is it trading for a player like PG13, Kd, Irving, labron, Aldridge.

was the knicks starphuckng when they traded for monore and won a championship..

Starphuck - Overpaying for an overrated player

Starphucking describes the transaction - not just the player but what was given up to get them and how much you're paying them.

Great description professor!!!

Starphuck is the phrase you use to label any trade you don't like that involves a player that has a recognizable name. You can also change the word to a noun by adding -er to it to troll people who don't agree with you.

Starphucker is someone who gravitates to fame without substance. Kardashians are starphuchers.
Could be someone that wants the big name player on their team but does not consider the consequences to aquire that player. Dolan was a starphucker for wanting Amare and Melo. Coming home savior homers were starphucked when Melo came to knicks.
THere is no place for "Starphuch" to label a trade one does not like for the hell of it. Bargnani was trade for the pick was not a starphuch, it was just stupid.

Notable Starphucks: Amare, Melo, Marbury, Isiah, Phil, and Larry Brown.
We either over paid via trade or salary. Melo is not that offensive but expectations were so high that fans made him him one. Trade wise it was not really a starphuch.