Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's nothing wrong with having a more favorable view right now him than KP. He's earned it.

Nope, it's just utterly pointless, since they're both Knicks.

You don't form a more favorable view of some players than others on the team? All 17 on the roster right now are basically the same?

Not really, no.

Hasn't occurred to be to compare O'Quinn and Porzingis, for example.

Do you care who gets minutes? Who should be offered in trades? Who should be given extensions? Or you wouldn't care whether it was O'Quinn or Porzingis who was included in a trade? You can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm going to assume you'd be more upset if KP than KOQ was offered in a trade to get Irving or a Houston/Melo trade. And that would mean that you clearly have compared the two players.

The answer to who is the better, more valuable player to the Knicks is clear. I wrote it hasn't occurred to me to compare the two because I really don't need to. Neither do you.

As I wrote and maintain the premise of this thread is less about commending hernangomez and more about backdoor criticizing porzingis for being didappointing in the eyes of some, includung your post suggesting he's "earned" the favorable comp.

I think both should get max minutes relative to their health. I don't see it as a competition.

I think neither should offered in a trade.

The extension question is moot as it isn't a either/or.

Comparing them is pointless. They're both Knicks and their PT and future with the Knicks isn't a choice between them.

Backdoor criticizing KP? Um, no,you may think you can read my mind but you're wrong. I will (and have) come out and unambiguously criticize and praise the parts of KP's and Willy's games that deserve it.

I said the "premise of the thread."

And I still say comparing them is pointless. None of the questions you asked seem relevant to those two particular players.

You said both the premise of the thread and "including my post."

Fair enough, apologies.

You have to begin to compare them now and start seriously comparing them by the end of this season. You have to answer questions like:
-Should their minutes be staggered and how? KOQ/Noah will get some minutes. Do all the remaining center minutes go to Willy? Do we want to know if KP can be a center? Is Willy so much better at center that he should just get all the minutes? Does Willy have enough weaknesses that we should see how KP works at center?

I still don't think that which one of those two players is "better" is at the core of those questions. I think their differences as players and their ability to coexist on the floor are driving these questions much more so then KP is a 8 and WH is a 7, or vice versa.

-Do we want/need both long-term? Does that work better than trading one for a young player in the backcourt?
-Do we want to give them both large contract extensions? Do they have enough non-overlapping strengths and compensate for each other's weaknesses enough that this makes sense?

Sorry I still don't see how ranking them answers these questions.

What if in two years they're the first and second best player on the Knicks?

They struggled when they played together last year. The team played well when KP or Willy was on the floor but not when both were. You're going to have to figure this out way more than 2 years from now unless you want to sell low. Players who are due big extensions have limited trade value. If we decide they don't fit together, we probably trade them by February - so within the next 6 months. It would be a gamble but so would keeping them. If they can play great together, obviously that is the best situation and we keep them.

Sorry but the pieces of this argument don't connect for me.

Porzingis is a star. Not yet in the true basketball sense but as a commodity to the Knicks - he isn't going anywhere, certainly not in favor to Hernangomez.

Hernangomez has three more he contracted years at nearly the league minimum. Even in 2000-2021 when he is an unrestricted free agent his cap hold to the team with his Bird rights will be miniscule. He'll have plenty of value in 2019-20. The argument also seems to overlook the fact that he may get a lot better in those three years and his value could dramatically increase for that reason as opposed to his potential in the first half of his sophomore season.

It also overlooks the idea that if these are two good, developing, smart players, they can learn to work together over those 3 seasons.

I don't foresee any real circumstance in which the Knicks are either forced or wise to decide to get rid of one by February, 2018.

You're right 3 not 2. You seem really invested in making sure no one compares the two though. Whether it's for playing time or transactions, this is just something that coaches, GMs, and fans who want to have discussions do.

I don't know about invested. It's the topic at hand and I'm expressing my opinion. And I'm fine if either of them turns out to be the better player. I'm more "invested" with both of them turning out to be good players. I've explained in detail why I don't think how they rank factors into their PT or place on the roster.

That said Briggs really started this thread to criticize Porzingis. The title of the thread is a half-thought by design. The strange underhandedness of it is really what I've been commenting on.

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:Still see them as 4/5.

KP should stay thin and quick. Another KG type of frame. He just needs to learn to beat up on small guys so teams cant defend him with that. Does anyone doubt he will? Willy is the perfect 5 next to him. More a lane clogger, Willy also sets punishing picks, something KP doesnt seem to have in his game at all. KP is more a face up guy. Willy a back to the basket in the paint. Willy is a better passer IMO. Both have good hands. Both work hard on defense even though they struggle at times.

You build the team with defensive wings and these two guys as bigs. I like that formula very much.

Still dont lobe the way they play together. I think the Knicks can stagger the minutes so they can both get 30 but play 10-12 together for now.

If we keep Melo--lets say we start KP at C and Melo PF---use Lee and Willy as 6th and 7th men. Both guys will get their 30 but most of it can be done in passing.

It's still so early in the process of development for KP and Willy. They have very few minutes together and I'd love to see them without Melo and DRose in the mix. It matters a great deal who the perimeter players are when you have KP and Willy together.

There are MANY examples of teams winning playing big as opposed to going small and quick. You can choose to start big and go small off the bench or vice versa. Willy and KP should only get better as a tandem with more minutes together. This team is built to play with 2 bigs unless they move Noah, KOQ or Willy etc.

yeah like 10 yrs ago..

So you prescribe that while we should not go to the past ( I agree) You know doubt think we should replicate the current successful model that is the GSW. Naturally that is a great idea for all the obvious reasons.
What is not obvious is where is the next thing?
Huh?
Yeah, the next thing. I see what GSW is doing, but that is really spearheaded by two time MVP Curry. THe addition of Durant means the subtraction of some depth and quality of size.
But what trend are we seeing? The emergence of the euro style center who can shoot. And we have the prototype.
So what do you pair the unicorn with? Briggs seems to think thick mobile player, just 21 and a rookie does not have the defensive chops. yet.
Who is the prototype to compliment KP?
Yes, the league will soon move from Lebron as torch carrier. Is the next "It" player Ben simmons? Greek Freek? Tall guys with handle? KP, even taller guy with handle? Better shooter then eitehr?
I don't know.

the gsw have a system that is design to enhance the current rosters skill level, you can go out there and coached the GSw and win 55+ games.

MDA, rockets would be a fringe playoff team if it wasn't for MDA's system. you can take avg talent, put them in a tailor made system, and that's 10 to 15 wins by its self. I have no idea what kind of system that will benefit KP.

JH seems to use KP like he did frye when he coach the suns, hanging out on the perimiter

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's nothing wrong with having a more favorable view right now him than KP. He's earned it.

Nope, it's just utterly pointless, since they're both Knicks.

You don't form a more favorable view of some players than others on the team? All 17 on the roster right now are basically the same?

Not really, no.

Hasn't occurred to be to compare O'Quinn and Porzingis, for example.

Do you care who gets minutes? Who should be offered in trades? Who should be given extensions? Or you wouldn't care whether it was O'Quinn or Porzingis who was included in a trade? You can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm going to assume you'd be more upset if KP than KOQ was offered in a trade to get Irving or a Houston/Melo trade. And that would mean that you clearly have compared the two players.

The answer to who is the better, more valuable player to the Knicks is clear. I wrote it hasn't occurred to me to compare the two because I really don't need to. Neither do you.

As I wrote and maintain the premise of this thread is less about commending hernangomez and more about backdoor criticizing porzingis for being didappointing in the eyes of some, includung your post suggesting he's "earned" the favorable comp.

I think both should get max minutes relative to their health. I don't see it as a competition.

I think neither should offered in a trade.

The extension question is moot as it isn't a either/or.

Comparing them is pointless. They're both Knicks and their PT and future with the Knicks isn't a choice between them.

Backdoor criticizing KP? Um, no,you may think you can read my mind but you're wrong. I will (and have) come out and unambiguously criticize and praise the parts of KP's and Willy's games that deserve it.

I said the "premise of the thread."

And I still say comparing them is pointless. None of the questions you asked seem relevant to those two particular players.

You said both the premise of the thread and "including my post."

Fair enough, apologies.

You have to begin to compare them now and start seriously comparing them by the end of this season. You have to answer questions like:
-Should their minutes be staggered and how? KOQ/Noah will get some minutes. Do all the remaining center minutes go to Willy? Do we want to know if KP can be a center? Is Willy so much better at center that he should just get all the minutes? Does Willy have enough weaknesses that we should see how KP works at center?

I still don't think that which one of those two players is "better" is at the core of those questions. I think their differences as players and their ability to coexist on the floor are driving these questions much more so then KP is a 8 and WH is a 7, or vice versa.

-Do we want/need both long-term? Does that work better than trading one for a young player in the backcourt?
-Do we want to give them both large contract extensions? Do they have enough non-overlapping strengths and compensate for each other's weaknesses enough that this makes sense?

Sorry I still don't see how ranking them answers these questions.

What if in two years they're the first and second best player on the Knicks?

They struggled when they played together last year. The team played well when KP or Willy was on the floor but not when both were. You're going to have to figure this out way more than 2 years from now unless you want to sell low. Players who are due big extensions have limited trade value. If we decide they don't fit together, we probably trade them by February - so within the next 6 months. It would be a gamble but so would keeping them. If they can play great together, obviously that is the best situation and we keep them.

Sorry but the pieces of this argument don't connect for me.

Porzingis is a star. Not yet in the true basketball sense but as a commodity to the Knicks - he isn't going anywhere, certainly not in favor to Hernangomez.

Hernangomez has three more he contracted years at nearly the league minimum. Even in 2000-2021 when he is an unrestricted free agent his cap hold to the team with his Bird rights will be miniscule. He'll have plenty of value in 2019-20. The argument also seems to overlook the fact that he may get a lot better in those three years and his value could dramatically increase for that reason as opposed to his potential in the first half of his sophomore season.

It also overlooks the idea that if these are two good, developing, smart players, they can learn to work together over those 3 seasons.

I don't foresee any real circumstance in which the Knicks are either forced or wise to decide to get rid of one by February, 2018.

You're right 3 not 2. You seem really invested in making sure no one compares the two though. Whether it's for playing time or transactions, this is just something that coaches, GMs, and fans who want to have discussions do.

I don't know about invested. It's the topic at hand and I'm expressing my opinion. And I'm fine if either of them turns out to be the better player. I'm more "invested" with both of them turning out to be good players. I've explained in detail why I don't think how they rank factors into their PT or place on the roster.

That said Briggs really started this thread to criticize Porzingis. The title of the thread is a half-thought by design. The strange underhandedness of it is really what I've been commenting on.

I doubt that and don't know how you could know it. He's praised Willy plenty of times. Or was that always just a way to criticize KP?

Well for starters, the thread title is misleading, "I might be in minority but I like Willy g"

I give Briggs enough credit to be able to write a title that actually represented his post.

NYKBocker wrote:

He just needs to increase his strength and gain more experience.

newyorknewyork wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

He just needs to increase his strength and gain more experience.

Since they're both Knicks, it'll still be irrelevant in 3 years.

BRIGGS wrote:Lets come back to this thread in 3 years.

Willy has better instincts than Porzingis. He understands positioning better. For all of Porzingis's flash his overall basketball IQ is low. If Willy was a better rim protector I would agree with you because he fits better for the 4 and 1, he has more of a defined role.

Despite having decent post moves, he doesn't establish himself down there like Kanter, and kanter is a very good FT shooter and is a magnet when it comes to offensive bords

We're already getting good play from Kanter & O'Quinn making a player of Willy's caliber a major trade asset. It would make a lot of sense if the Knicks were shopping him around to gauge his value. If others see him as the second coming of Marc Gasol (and we don't), his value must be HUGE especially since he has the super low contract. He'd be worth a high lottery 1st round pick or borderline all-star quality player at least. He can also be packaged with some sub-optimal dead weight contracts (Noah especially, and to a much lesser extent Courtney Lee, Baker, and Thomas)

For what's it's worth, Gasol has been one of the very best centers in the last 5-10 years, and signed a 5 year max contract ($110m) a few years ago. So if we have a $20+mill/year player at a cheap price, you can bet he's got value.

Alternatively, if we see Willy as the next Marc Gasol, it behooves us to showcase Kanter/KoQ NOW to trade those guys for additional assets.

Willy Hernangomez was born in May 1994. Age 23.
Kanter was born in May 1992. Age 25.

Both of them should already have the foundation of what they're going to be - it's more likely that they'll refine their games a little, rather than make large scale improvements, as they mature into their primes.

At the moment, Kanter looks like a man; Willy (much like Marc Gasol did early in his career) still looks like his body is maturing and he's shedding some baby fat. So it's possible there's more to Willy. In the Pau vs Marc comparison, Marc didn't establish himself as a max-contract worthy player until his mid-late 20s.

For what it's worth, I don't think it was good (or is good for Willy or KP's development for two young bigs to be paired together on their team in Europe or here on the Knicks. Both need minutes and touches to develop, and having them in the same place is going to stunt at least 1 of their career potentials.

For illustration, Kanter's growth was in part held back early on by being with Favors & Gobert (not to mention Al Jefferson & Paul Millsap when he was a rookie). After Kanter's departure, Favors did not take the leap many were expecting, but Gobert has become one of the NBA's dominant defenders now that playing time has been sorted out. (yeah, of course Kanter's D was going to look lackluster vs 2 long, athletic beasts and he'd struggle to get mins with a defensive minded coach).

Of note, if we're making this into Kanter vs Willy:
Prior to the NBA draft (really, prior to signing to Kentucky), Kanter was scouted as a generational big man talent. Willy should have plenty of scouting (all eyes were on KP after all)... yet by many accounts is a bit of a late bloomer and ultimately was a 2nd round pick. It's a testament to Willy's work ethic that he's improved so much - I think this was in part due to Willy having a year to play for a season WITHOUT KP in Seville and getting the extra touches and minutes.