knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:More than KP. I just feel he will be an efficient sturdy player who can be our version of Jokic. I still think KP will be a good player who is trapped skill- wise and probably physically between positions

I could see us at times playing 4 guards and Willy in the middle playing at a good pace in a 4-1 set

We're all Willy G fans but no way will he be a Jokic type player, if anything he'll be like the person he's been being compared to for two years which is M.Gasol but not quite as good. I hope i'm wrong and he's as good as Gasol but if we can get a Gasol light from Willy i'd be more than happy with that. I get that you like him but no way can i see him being a better player then KP.

I never heard anyone compare willy to Gasol..he is more like David Lee, and he's defense awareness is the worse on the roster, he also shys away from contact big time. He has to develop a reliable 3 pointer, step his defense up, and become more physical, or else he destine to be a journey player

Where have you been? This has been done about a 1000 times over

Also, he does the opposite of shy away from contact

My comparison to lee is not so much style of play, but more of the actual impact he has on the game.

Do you remember lee posting all star numbers but always in a loss, that's because he would give up the same numbers he puts up. I'm also not talking about his individual defense, but his awareness is brutal (like oh sht, I forgot to go cover him) bad.

You know how walt frazier always says "see the ball, and see your man" well that's his biggest problem. He's in the paint, while his man is launching wide open 3s..the death of us all season long

We lost games, but it wasn't because Lee wasn't an impact player, it was because we were a bad team. We were completely rebuilding at the time. Lee had similar impact to what Melo does now, where he can be the best player on a 30-win team, but is more suited to being the 3rd best player on a really good team. In fact, for a couple years in his prime, he was nearly a 20-10 player on a really good Warriors team. He was their 2nd or 3rd best player when they were winning 50 games.

knicks1248 wrote:look at his embarrassing defense in this game, if you can stomach it

Already know Willy has to work on his D. Still showed enough last season to make the NBA Rookie first team. So there is a very good reason to be optimistic. Willy was talking about coming back a better defender. There is more to it than just talking, of course. But its good to hear a player acknowledge that they have holes in their game they need to fix. We'll see if its just talk.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:look at his embarrassing defense in this game, if you can stomach it

This clip isn't a good illustration his embarrassing defense. He properly contested and stopped multiple layups by guard penetration. They hit open 3s due to poor rotation on the back in on a few. Out of all the buckets there was only 1 really bad one which he hesitated to stick with Lopez or close out hard as he tried to cover for the guard in the paint first but wasn't quick enough to show and then close out. Looked pretty lackadaisical on that one actually. Might have been winded.

They overcompensated for the guards to much on the pick in these clips. Don't know if that is by design or not but the picks lead to half-assed double teams with poor rotations to make up for it. If the bigs are going to commit to covering the guards that much on the PNR then the guards are going to have to either fully switch to cover the 3 ball. Or they would have to do a better job of doubling & rotating.

you know what, I strongly believe the defensive system played a bigger factor, especially when you have suspect defenders to begin with.

JH (I like the guy) does not know anything about defensive schemes, which is why phil forced Rambis in that role.

The problem with rambis's schemes is that it dates back to when teams avg 15 to 20 threes a game, not 30 to 40, an only pg, sg and sf took them, it was more of a outside-inside game. Now its a inside-outside game and all 5 positions can hoist up 3's like no tomorrow.

Willy was 1st team all rookie, that also shows how defense is not a priority in the nba as much as offense

KP should stay thin and quick. Another KG type of frame. He just needs to learn to beat up on small guys so teams cant defend him with that. Does anyone doubt he will? Willy is the perfect 5 next to him. More a lane clogger, Willy also sets punishing picks, something KP doesnt seem to have in his game at all. KP is more a face up guy. Willy a back to the basket in the paint. Willy is a better passer IMO. Both have good hands. Both work hard on defense even though they struggle at times.

You build the team with defensive wings and these two guys as bigs. I like that formula very much.

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's nothing wrong with having a more favorable view right now him than KP. He's earned it.

Nope, it's just utterly pointless, since they're both Knicks.

You don't form a more favorable view of some players than others on the team? All 17 on the roster right now are basically the same?

Not really, no.

Hasn't occurred to be to compare O'Quinn and Porzingis, for example.

Do you care who gets minutes? Who should be offered in trades? Who should be given extensions? Or you wouldn't care whether it was O'Quinn or Porzingis who was included in a trade? You can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm going to assume you'd be more upset if KP than KOQ was offered in a trade to get Irving or a Houston/Melo trade. And that would mean that you clearly have compared the two players.

The answer to who is the better, more valuable player to the Knicks is clear. I wrote it hasn't occurred to me to compare the two because I really don't need to. Neither do you.

As I wrote and maintain the premise of this thread is less about commending hernangomez and more about backdoor criticizing porzingis for being didappointing in the eyes of some, includung your post suggesting he's "earned" the favorable comp.

I think both should get max minutes relative to their health. I don't see it as a competition.

I think neither should offered in a trade.

The extension question is moot as it isn't a either/or.

Comparing them is pointless. They're both Knicks and their PT and future with the Knicks isn't a choice between them.

Backdoor criticizing KP? Um, no,you may think you can read my mind but you're wrong. I will (and have) come out and unambiguously criticize and praise the parts of KP's and Willy's games that deserve it.

I said the "premise of the thread."

And I still say comparing them is pointless. None of the questions you asked seem relevant to those two particular players.

fishmike wrote:Still see them as 4/5.

KP should stay thin and quick. Another KG type of frame. He just needs to learn to beat up on small guys so teams cant defend him with that. Does anyone doubt he will? Willy is the perfect 5 next to him. More a lane clogger, Willy also sets punishing picks, something KP doesnt seem to have in his game at all. KP is more a face up guy. Willy a back to the basket in the paint. Willy is a better passer IMO. Both have good hands. Both work hard on defense even though they struggle at times.

You build the team with defensive wings and these two guys as bigs. I like that formula very much.

Still dont lobe the way they play together. I think the Knicks can stagger the minutes so they can both get 30 but play 10-12 together for now.

If we keep Melo--lets say we start KP at C and Melo PF---use Lee and Willy as 6th and 7th men. Both guys will get their 30 but most of it can be done in passing.

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:Still see them as 4/5.

KP should stay thin and quick. Another KG type of frame. He just needs to learn to beat up on small guys so teams cant defend him with that. Does anyone doubt he will? Willy is the perfect 5 next to him. More a lane clogger, Willy also sets punishing picks, something KP doesnt seem to have in his game at all. KP is more a face up guy. Willy a back to the basket in the paint. Willy is a better passer IMO. Both have good hands. Both work hard on defense even though they struggle at times.

You build the team with defensive wings and these two guys as bigs. I like that formula very much.

Still dont lobe the way they play together. I think the Knicks can stagger the minutes so they can both get 30 but play 10-12 together for now.

If we keep Melo--lets say we start KP at C and Melo PF---use Lee and Willy as 6th and 7th men. Both guys will get their 30 but most of it can be done in passing.

It's still so early in the process of development for KP and Willy. They have very few minutes together and I'd love to see them without Melo and DRose in the mix. It matters a great deal who the perimeter players are when you have KP and Willy together.

There are MANY examples of teams winning playing big as opposed to going small and quick. You can choose to start big and go small off the bench or vice versa. Willy and KP should only get better as a tandem with more minutes together. This team is built to play with 2 bigs unless they move Noah, KOQ or Willy etc.

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:Still see them as 4/5.

KP should stay thin and quick. Another KG type of frame. He just needs to learn to beat up on small guys so teams cant defend him with that. Does anyone doubt he will? Willy is the perfect 5 next to him. More a lane clogger, Willy also sets punishing picks, something KP doesnt seem to have in his game at all. KP is more a face up guy. Willy a back to the basket in the paint. Willy is a better passer IMO. Both have good hands. Both work hard on defense even though they struggle at times.

You build the team with defensive wings and these two guys as bigs. I like that formula very much.

Still dont lobe the way they play together. I think the Knicks can stagger the minutes so they can both get 30 but play 10-12 together for now.

If we keep Melo--lets say we start KP at C and Melo PF---use Lee and Willy as 6th and 7th men. Both guys will get their 30 but most of it can be done in passing.

It's still so early in the process of development for KP and Willy. They have very few minutes together and I'd love to see them without Melo and DRose in the mix. It matters a great deal who the perimeter players are when you have KP and Willy together.

There are MANY examples of teams winning playing big as opposed to going small and quick. You can choose to start big and go small off the bench or vice versa. Willy and KP should only get better as a tandem with more minutes together. This team is built to play with 2 bigs unless they move Noah, KOQ or Willy etc.

yeah like 10 yrs ago..

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's nothing wrong with having a more favorable view right now him than KP. He's earned it.

Nope, it's just utterly pointless, since they're both Knicks.

You don't form a more favorable view of some players than others on the team? All 17 on the roster right now are basically the same?

Not really, no.

Hasn't occurred to be to compare O'Quinn and Porzingis, for example.

Do you care who gets minutes? Who should be offered in trades? Who should be given extensions? Or you wouldn't care whether it was O'Quinn or Porzingis who was included in a trade? You can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm going to assume you'd be more upset if KP than KOQ was offered in a trade to get Irving or a Houston/Melo trade. And that would mean that you clearly have compared the two players.

The answer to who is the better, more valuable player to the Knicks is clear. I wrote it hasn't occurred to me to compare the two because I really don't need to. Neither do you.

As I wrote and maintain the premise of this thread is less about commending hernangomez and more about backdoor criticizing porzingis for being didappointing in the eyes of some, includung your post suggesting he's "earned" the favorable comp.

I think both should get max minutes relative to their health. I don't see it as a competition.

I think neither should offered in a trade.

The extension question is moot as it isn't a either/or.

Comparing them is pointless. They're both Knicks and their PT and future with the Knicks isn't a choice between them.

Backdoor criticizing KP? Um, no,you may think you can read my mind but you're wrong. I will (and have) come out and unambiguously criticize and praise the parts of KP's and Willy's games that deserve it.

I said the "premise of the thread."

And I still say comparing them is pointless. None of the questions you asked seem relevant to those two particular players.

You said both the premise of the thread and "including my post."

Fair enough, apologies.

You have to begin to compare them now and start seriously comparing them by the end of this season. You have to answer questions like:
-Should their minutes be staggered and how? KOQ/Noah will get some minutes. Do all the remaining center minutes go to Willy? Do we want to know if KP can be a center? Is Willy so much better at center that he should just get all the minutes? Does Willy have enough weaknesses that we should see how KP works at center?

I still don't think that which one of those two players is "better" is at the core of those questions. I think their differences as players and their ability to coexist on the floor are driving these questions much more so then KP is a 8 and WH is a 7, or vice versa.

-Do we want/need both long-term? Does that work better than trading one for a young player in the backcourt?
-Do we want to give them both large contract extensions? Do they have enough non-overlapping strengths and compensate for each other's weaknesses enough that this makes sense?

Sorry I still don't see how ranking them answers these questions.

What if in two years they're the first and second best player on the Knicks?

They struggled when they played together last year. The team played well when KP or Willy was on the floor but not when both were. You're going to have to figure this out way more than 2 years from now unless you want to sell low. Players who are due big extensions have limited trade value. If we decide they don't fit together, we probably trade them by February - so within the next 6 months. It would be a gamble but so would keeping them. If they can play great together, obviously that is the best situation and we keep them.

Sorry but the pieces of this argument don't connect for me.

Porzingis is a star. Not yet in the true basketball sense but as a commodity to the Knicks - he isn't going anywhere, certainly not in favor to Hernangomez.

Hernangomez has three more he contracted years at nearly the league minimum. Even in 2000-2021 when he is an unrestricted free agent his cap hold to the team with his Bird rights will be miniscule. He'll have plenty of value in 2019-20. The argument also seems to overlook the fact that he may get a lot better in those three years and his value could dramatically increase for that reason as opposed to his potential in the first half of his sophomore season.

It also overlooks the idea that if these are two good, developing, smart players, they can learn to work together over those 3 seasons.

I don't foresee any real circumstance in which the Knicks are either forced or wise to decide to get rid of one by February, 2018.

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:There's nothing wrong with having a more favorable view right now him than KP. He's earned it.

Nope, it's just utterly pointless, since they're both Knicks.

You don't form a more favorable view of some players than others on the team? All 17 on the roster right now are basically the same?

Not really, no.

Hasn't occurred to be to compare O'Quinn and Porzingis, for example.

Do you care who gets minutes? Who should be offered in trades? Who should be given extensions? Or you wouldn't care whether it was O'Quinn or Porzingis who was included in a trade? You can correct me if I'm wrong but I'm going to assume you'd be more upset if KP than KOQ was offered in a trade to get Irving or a Houston/Melo trade. And that would mean that you clearly have compared the two players.

The answer to who is the better, more valuable player to the Knicks is clear. I wrote it hasn't occurred to me to compare the two because I really don't need to. Neither do you.

As I wrote and maintain the premise of this thread is less about commending hernangomez and more about backdoor criticizing porzingis for being didappointing in the eyes of some, includung your post suggesting he's "earned" the favorable comp.

I think both should get max minutes relative to their health. I don't see it as a competition.

I think neither should offered in a trade.

The extension question is moot as it isn't a either/or.

Comparing them is pointless. They're both Knicks and their PT and future with the Knicks isn't a choice between them.

Backdoor criticizing KP? Um, no,you may think you can read my mind but you're wrong. I will (and have) come out and unambiguously criticize and praise the parts of KP's and Willy's games that deserve it.

I said the "premise of the thread."

And I still say comparing them is pointless. None of the questions you asked seem relevant to those two particular players.

You said both the premise of the thread and "including my post."

Fair enough, apologies.

You have to begin to compare them now and start seriously comparing them by the end of this season. You have to answer questions like:
-Should their minutes be staggered and how? KOQ/Noah will get some minutes. Do all the remaining center minutes go to Willy? Do we want to know if KP can be a center? Is Willy so much better at center that he should just get all the minutes? Does Willy have enough weaknesses that we should see how KP works at center?

I still don't think that which one of those two players is "better" is at the core of those questions. I think their differences as players and their ability to coexist on the floor are driving these questions much more so then KP is a 8 and WH is a 7, or vice versa.

-Do we want/need both long-term? Does that work better than trading one for a young player in the backcourt?
-Do we want to give them both large contract extensions? Do they have enough non-overlapping strengths and compensate for each other's weaknesses enough that this makes sense?

Sorry I still don't see how ranking them answers these questions.

What if in two years they're the first and second best player on the Knicks?

They struggled when they played together last year. The team played well when KP or Willy was on the floor but not when both were. You're going to have to figure this out way more than 2 years from now unless you want to sell low. Players who are due big extensions have limited trade value. If we decide they don't fit together, we probably trade them by February - so within the next 6 months. It would be a gamble but so would keeping them. If they can play great together, obviously that is the best situation and we keep them.

Sorry but the pieces of this argument don't connect for me.

Porzingis is a star. Not yet in the true basketball sense but as a commodity to the Knicks - he isn't going anywhere, certainly not in favor to Hernangomez.

Hernangomez has three more he contracted years at nearly the league minimum. Even in 2000-2021 when he is an unrestricted free agent his cap hold to the team with his Bird rights will be miniscule. He'll have plenty of value in 2019-20. The argument also seems to overlook the fact that he may get a lot better in those three years and his value could dramatically increase for that reason as opposed to his potential in the first half of his sophomore season.

It also overlooks the idea that if these are two good, developing, smart players, they can learn to work together over those 3 seasons.

I don't foresee any real circumstance in which the Knicks are either forced or wise to decide to get rid of one by February, 2018.

You're right 3 not 2. You seem really invested in making sure no one compares the two though. Whether it's for playing time or transactions, this is just something that coaches, GMs, and fans who want to have discussions do.

I don't know about invested. It's the topic at hand and I'm expressing my opinion. And I'm fine if either of them turns out to be the better player. I'm more "invested" with both of them turning out to be good players. I've explained in detail why I don't think how they rank factors into their PT or place on the roster.

That said Briggs really started this thread to criticize Porzingis. The title of the thread is a half-thought by design. The strange underhandedness of it is really what I've been commenting on.