After six years of signing crappy overpaid one dimensional free agents to "win now with Melo" - let's do it again for Porzingis. People need to get over this window of opportunity bull****. This franchise doesn't have a solid base. Without building that any notion of capitalizing on a window of opportunity is laughable. "Build through the draft" has become a overplayed stupid meme. We need to build a core and a culture. Anyone who can't wait to do that and wants to contend in two years of four years or six years is just asking to repeat the same bull**** that we went through for the last 20 years. Knicks fans of all people should have learned this lesson - but we just can't stop chasing he next shiny object.

The article pointed out the top players on 50 win teams and really you won't find any 19, 20 or 21 yr old players. Knicks are right to be interested in a player like Kyrie to go along with KP and THJ in particular.

Vmart wrote:Only idiots repeat the same mistakes again and again. Totally against giving up picks in any deal.

Yeah, the wolves and the hornets have terrible lottery histories.

Vmart wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Vmart wrote:Only idiots repeat the same mistakes again and again. Totally against giving up picks in any deal.

so you would rather draft a guy like Jeff green, who was drafted #5..then including that same pick in a trade for a kyrie or paul george type?

It seems like you have come to the full conclusion that our franchise have drafted and develop enough players in your life time, to believe that they are capable of drafting extremely well, developing a core, and winning a title with that core in 3 to 5 yrs.

You are confident in the front office(who has never even come close) to build and develop young talent in a city that never sleeps..

I like how you randomly pick Jeff Green out of the hat. You wouldn't take Curry at number 7. I don't believe Kyrie is worth a pick. I'm not for giving a pick for Kyrie here is why Kyrie is Steve Francis, Stephon Marbury and Rose. Kyrie does not make others better you have seen It before LeBron he isn't the driving force of the Cavaliers.

The biggest mistake Knicks have been making is chasing names. I want the Knicks to be as bland as possible and develop young players that are home grown. Don't chase the name.

Kyrie gets killed for his passing but in truth he does pass the ball A LOT. Even playing next to Lebron who handles the ball a ton. Kyrie is still moving the ball and when you look at Passes Per Game and Potential Assists, Kyrie is among the top in the league.

BRIGGS wrote:I don't care if we trade for kyrie

But the trade we would likely make would include willy G. Frank. N and 2018 and 2020 In that case you pass. Develop players draft opportunistic trades and open cap space Either Carmelo and a restricted 1 and parts r good or u move on

I'm old enough to remember when people whined about things that actually happened rather than worst case scenarios they imagine might maybe happen maybe.

Jmpasq wrote:

nixluva wrote:https://theknickswall.com/the-case-for-trading-draft-picks-480425dd66f3

I really like this writer Jeffrey Bellone of The Knicks Wall.

This is a detailed article with charts so I suggest going to read it but here's an excerpt:

The Knicks have a franchise player in Kristaps Porzingis. They need to be careful not to waste his prime playing years by avoiding trades for star talent at the cost of draft picks.
>Snip<
It seems the common thread among Knicks fans is woven with the idea that building a competitive team around Porzingis should be done by using future draft picks. Porzingis is only 21 years old (he’ll be 22 by the start of next season), the team is coming off a 31-win campaign, and Carmelo Anthony is presumably moving on to greener pastures. The team is not built to win now, so why acquire veteran pieces? Draft more young studs and let them develop alongside Porzingis, and together, they will become a future contender.

This logic is correct, until you start doing the math. The Knicks don’t have the luxury to wait for future draft picks to develop into elite talent to play with Porzingis. The clock is ticking. It takes a really long time for 18 year olds to become top players on contending teams, if they become top players at all.

There are eight teams that won at least 50 games last season. Looking at the three best players on each of those teams (using Value Over Replacement Player — VORP), none of the 24 players observed were younger than 24 years old last season. Each team had at least one of their star players in the thick of their prime (age 28):

>Chart<

If we project the Knicks roster ahead to 2020–21, when Kristaps would be 25 years old (and a potential free agent), and if we assume the Knicks keep Frank Ntilikina along with their 2018 and 2019 draft picks, we find a team that would have Porzingis and a trio of 20, 21, and 22 year olds. In other words, it is unlikely that any of the Knicks 2017, 2018, or 2019 draft picks would be ready to perform at a contending level by the time Porzingis is entering his prime-age seasons (age 25 and up).

When Kristaps Porzingis is ready to compete for a championship between the ages of 25–30, the Knicks’ future draft picks would still be in their developmental years until the tail end of that window.

The Knicks could speed up the process by trying to acquire a player like Kyrie Irving. The 25-year-old guard is already in his prime, with an upward trend fully possible. While his contract will be more expensive over the next two seasons than a rookie, his production will be far superior. Remember, rookies are cheap, but they start to get expensive (through qualifying offers and restricted free agency) around the time they are finally ready to compete at a championship level.

FiveThirtyEight projects the production of players over a five-year window. The Knicks fell to the eighth overall pick in the most recent draft, so let’s use a slightly higher pick to articulate the point. The fifth overall selection, De’Aaron Fox, projects to produce -0.3 wins above a replacement level player next season. Kyrie Irving projects to produce 5.6 wins. It is not until the 2022 season, five years from now, when Fox reaches his potential of about three wins per season. His ceiling never projects to be as high as Irving’s:

I agree and this is why I wanted to trade Kristaps. If we could of got 4 lottery picks in 2 years we could build the core peaking together at the right time

MEaning you wanted to trade him to Boston and Boston only for exactly what you wanted to trade him for and whether Boston had any interest in any of this is irrelevant.

Knickoftime wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

nixluva wrote:https://theknickswall.com/the-case-for-trading-draft-picks-480425dd66f3

I really like this writer Jeffrey Bellone of The Knicks Wall.

This is a detailed article with charts so I suggest going to read it but here's an excerpt:

The Knicks have a franchise player in Kristaps Porzingis. They need to be careful not to waste his prime playing years by avoiding trades for star talent at the cost of draft picks.
>Snip<
It seems the common thread among Knicks fans is woven with the idea that building a competitive team around Porzingis should be done by using future draft picks. Porzingis is only 21 years old (he’ll be 22 by the start of next season), the team is coming off a 31-win campaign, and Carmelo Anthony is presumably moving on to greener pastures. The team is not built to win now, so why acquire veteran pieces? Draft more young studs and let them develop alongside Porzingis, and together, they will become a future contender.

This logic is correct, until you start doing the math. The Knicks don’t have the luxury to wait for future draft picks to develop into elite talent to play with Porzingis. The clock is ticking. It takes a really long time for 18 year olds to become top players on contending teams, if they become top players at all.

There are eight teams that won at least 50 games last season. Looking at the three best players on each of those teams (using Value Over Replacement Player — VORP), none of the 24 players observed were younger than 24 years old last season. Each team had at least one of their star players in the thick of their prime (age 28):

>Chart<

If we project the Knicks roster ahead to 2020–21, when Kristaps would be 25 years old (and a potential free agent), and if we assume the Knicks keep Frank Ntilikina along with their 2018 and 2019 draft picks, we find a team that would have Porzingis and a trio of 20, 21, and 22 year olds. In other words, it is unlikely that any of the Knicks 2017, 2018, or 2019 draft picks would be ready to perform at a contending level by the time Porzingis is entering his prime-age seasons (age 25 and up).

When Kristaps Porzingis is ready to compete for a championship between the ages of 25–30, the Knicks’ future draft picks would still be in their developmental years until the tail end of that window.

The Knicks could speed up the process by trying to acquire a player like Kyrie Irving. The 25-year-old guard is already in his prime, with an upward trend fully possible. While his contract will be more expensive over the next two seasons than a rookie, his production will be far superior. Remember, rookies are cheap, but they start to get expensive (through qualifying offers and restricted free agency) around the time they are finally ready to compete at a championship level.

FiveThirtyEight projects the production of players over a five-year window. The Knicks fell to the eighth overall pick in the most recent draft, so let’s use a slightly higher pick to articulate the point. The fifth overall selection, De’Aaron Fox, projects to produce -0.3 wins above a replacement level player next season. Kyrie Irving projects to produce 5.6 wins. It is not until the 2022 season, five years from now, when Fox reaches his potential of about three wins per season. His ceiling never projects to be as high as Irving’s:

I agree and this is why I wanted to trade Kristaps. If we could of got 4 lottery picks in 2 years we could build the core peaking together at the right time

MEaning you wanted to trade him to Boston and Boston only for exactly what you wanted to trade him for and whether Boston had any interest in any of this is irrelevant.

Vmart wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Vmart wrote:Only idiots repeat the same mistakes again and again. Totally against giving up picks in any deal.

Yeah, the wolves and the hornets have terrible lottery histories.

You must really love the Knicks trade history. To many trades that never amounted to much.

I don't at all. But it's a logic trap to assume the opposite will work just because it's the opposite of what didn't work.

Not how it works.

Knickoftime wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

Vmart wrote:Only idiots repeat the same mistakes again and again. Totally against giving up picks in any deal.

Yeah, the wolves and the hornets have terrible lottery histories.

You must really love the Knicks trade history. To many trades that never amounted to much.

I don't at all. But it's a logic trap to assume the opposite will work just because it's the opposite of what didn't work.

Not how it works.

The move is illogical for the Knicks simply because Kyrie isn't what you think he is. He is a good player he isn't going to put the Knicks over the top and he will stunt the growth curve of the young players.

I'm only willing to trade picks for a top two-three player. I'm not dropping picks on Kyrie he is a trap player. He has proven nothing without LeBron. His assists are the Stephon Marbury, Rose variety.
Adding Kyrie is basically putting the cart ahead of the horse.