izybx wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

izybx wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

izybx wrote:We all know that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim. So what's your point? If a lot of people think something then it must be true? I should change my beliefs because a lot of people disagree with me? (Or more to your point, people who look like me disagree with me, and I should get with the program?)

What's your point?

I don't understand your reasoning - you started off claiming your subjective experience is the only thing that's true and is all that counts, now you're saying other people's subjective experience can't be trusted

We're just getting into circular logic here. So what should be done about this rampant racism? We just going to wring our hands about it?

Well, acknowledging it would be a start rather than saying "never experienced it buddy, therefore it cannot exist!"

You sound very proud of yourself and your achievements, I'm not sure why you can't be proud and at the same time acknowledge racism exists

I'm not disputing that racism exists, I don't agree with people who denigrate an entire race of people as either racists or being complicit with racists. I don't agree with that. I disagree with people who view racism as rampant.

So is that the solution? That we acknowledge that racism exists?

Some people are leaving in black and white world while it has so many colors.
We should be compassionate to them. They are losing so much while leaving in beautiful country.
World across the border is full of suffering, hate, and violence beyond our imagination but some people do not appreciate what was given to them.
Granted we need to work harder to keep what we were given and make our country a better place to leave for everyone.
But reducing the beautiful diversity of the world to just the color of the skin is not helping at all.

arkrud wrote:

izybx wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

izybx wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

izybx wrote:We all know that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim. So what's your point? If a lot of people think something then it must be true? I should change my beliefs because a lot of people disagree with me? (Or more to your point, people who look like me disagree with me, and I should get with the program?)

What's your point?

I don't understand your reasoning - you started off claiming your subjective experience is the only thing that's true and is all that counts, now you're saying other people's subjective experience can't be trusted

We're just getting into circular logic here. So what should be done about this rampant racism? We just going to wring our hands about it?

Well, acknowledging it would be a start rather than saying "never experienced it buddy, therefore it cannot exist!"

You sound very proud of yourself and your achievements, I'm not sure why you can't be proud and at the same time acknowledge racism exists

I'm not disputing that racism exists, I don't agree with people who denigrate an entire race of people as either racists or being complicit with racists. I don't agree with that. I disagree with people who view racism as rampant.

So is that the solution? That we acknowledge that racism exists?

Some people are leaving in black and white world while it has so many colors.
We should be compassionate to them. They are losing so much while leaving in beautiful country.
World across the border is full of suffering, hate, and violence beyond our imagination but some people do not appreciate what was given to them.
Granted we need to work harder to keep what we were given and make our country a better place to leave for everyone.
But reducing the beautiful diversity of the world to just the color of the skin is not helping at all.

GIVEN? People freaking DIED to get this country to this point. You don’t even have to go back very far in time to get to a more violent racist and unequal society!

The Systems in this country are STILL not equal for everyone! Just cuz there are worse places in the world doesn’t make America’s inequality OK or acceptable. Especially if you’re a POC who faces that inequality on a regular basis.

Izybx was able to achieve success in his life but fails to realize how EASILY this system could’ve swallowed him up. Just ONE bad encounter with Police could’ve gotten him swept up in the System like so many wrongfully imprisoned poor young minorities. That system is STILL broken and impacting people. You wouldn’t have had to be doing anything wrong either. That’s what the protesting is about.

America has a HUGE prison population relative to the rest of the world. We have more gun violence and a huge drug gang problem. Innocent people are getting swept up in all this so let’s stop ignoring these problems and only bringing up the good things is dishonest.

izybx wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

izybx wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:Wait you told me to get out of my bubble, i guess the Bronx is in the bubble now? And I've lived in Georgia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Iowa. So there goes that. Whatever nix, you don't speak for all of us, speak for yourself and your own experiences. Who made you the spokesman for minorities? What gives you the right to act like you represent some sort of monolithic block?

Are you genuinely arguing the majority of minorities in the United States would testify that they don't believe discrimination prejudice exists in this country in any substantial way?

I'm talking about what I think, and giving my opinion based on my life experiences. I reject what you automatons are trying to do by put brown people in a box (labeled fragile). Rejecting the label of victim pushed on us is the first step to fulfilling the American dream, and of becoming successful.

Aren't you a police officer? What would you know about success, to lecture people about how to attain it?

Why are you going to come in here and be nasty for? We're all on the computer little man, don't use it as an excuse to be rude.

Honestly, I wasn't trying to be rude. I geniunely wanted to know what do you know about success, since success in this country is generally defined by an individual's ability to procure material wealth, ideally through novel means.

That ain't a police officer, which barely required a high school diploma. I grew up with people that became police officer's and none of them became police officers because they had an abundance of options. Hell, two of them didn't graduate from high school until they were 20 and 21, respectively. And at least one I remained in contact with, lived with their parents for the longest while because of how ****ty his salary was. So I'm not sure what makes you feel you have the calculus to determine how to be successful.

Maybe a better question would be: How do you personally define success? And we can begin dissecting, why I think you are wrong in suggesting that "working hard" can produce the popular definition of success.

And FYI, I'm 6"3' and 230lbs (albeit 15% body fat last time I checked). Just thought I'd add clarity to that "little guy" comment.

izybx wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

izybx wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

izybx wrote:We all know that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim. So what's your point? If a lot of people think something then it must be true? I should change my beliefs because a lot of people disagree with me? (Or more to your point, people who look like me disagree with me, and I should get with the program?)

What's your point?

I don't understand your reasoning - you started off claiming your subjective experience is the only thing that's true and is all that counts, now you're saying other people's subjective experience can't be trusted

We're just getting into circular logic here. So what should be done about this rampant racism? We just going to wring our hands about it?

Well, acknowledging it would be a start rather than saying "never experienced it buddy, therefore it cannot exist!"

You sound very proud of yourself and your achievements, I'm not sure why you can't be proud and at the same time acknowledge racism exists

I'm not disputing that racism exists, I don't agree with people who denigrate an entire race of people as either racists or being complicit with racists. I don't agree with that. I disagree with people who view racism as rampant.

So is that the solution? That we acknowledge that racism exists?

I think the issue people is that you're attempting to minimize the effect racism/white supremecy still plays. You said you're Puerto Rican, right?

Well, how the hell can you push that narrative when the majority of the Black and Brown people on that island don't have basic utilities and are receiving inadequate aid following the devastation from those hurricanes? You think if they were predominantly Caucasian, it would have taken this long? You think Trump's narrative of minimization/indifference would be as it has been?

How can you make the claim that there is no racism/white supremecy when your people are $3 billion in debt largely due to tarrifs they pay that mainland Americans don't?

How can you make the claim that there is no racism/white supremcy when Puerto Ricans vote in U.S. elections but have no direct representatives in Congress to vote on behalf of their interests? Taxation with no representation was what allegedly started the Revolutionary War and yet here it is in 2017!

How can you make the claim that there is no racism/white supremcy when military exercises, involving depeleted uranium that causes a spike in cancer rates and birth deformities, were continually being run for decades on the island in spite of the residents being in opposition to it?

How does one "pull themselves up by the bootstrap" to address these issues and attain success?

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:We all know that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim. So what's your point? If a lot of people think something then it must be true? I should change my beliefs because a lot of people disagree with me? (Or more to your point, people who look like me disagree with me, and I should get with the program?)

What's your point?

My point is to understand where you're coming from. That's often a useful part of a genuine conversation. You seem very ready to retort what you imagine I might say as opposed to just actually participating in the conversation.

Here's what I've read just the last 24 hours.

I'm talking about what I think, and giving my opinion based on my life experiences. 

Fair enough. I'd like to think that we can all form opinions based on more than just their own individual experience, but understood.

Whatever nix, you don't speak for all of us, speak for yourself and your own experiences. Who made you the spokesman for minorities? What gives you the right to act like you represent some sort of monolithic block?

This is you reminding Nix that it's important not to be too influenced by your own own individual experience or to draw conclusions for other people about their experiences and opinions.

We all know that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim. So what's your point? If a lot of people think something then it must be true? I should change my beliefs because a lot of people disagree with me?

This is you doing exactly what you just accused Nix of doing an hour or so later.

You are dismissing the experiences of in your words "large percentages of certain ethnic groups" and concluding that their experiences are either not real or significant but just perceived, and that any conclusions they reach are erroneous. Put all together and you are clearly stating your beliefs are solely formed by your own subjective experience and you in fact have no reason to even believe that anyone has genuinely had a different experience than you.

Nix can't speak for anyone but himself but you in fact, can.

I hope at this stage something useful is becoming self-evident.

We aren't solving racism here today. What I see is evidence of the tricks the mind can play on us. Your story is eerily similar to the other discrimination denier on this forum, who like you makes pulling himself up from a modest single parent household the centerpiece of his worldview.

And there is some intellectual purity to the idea if you can overcome modest origins and whatever roadblocks exist, anybody should. But you gave that up when one second you told Nix he can't speak for anybody and the very next you dismissed the experiences of "large percentages of certain ethnic groups," which IS speaking FOR other people. You showed you're not seeing the big picture. You're seeing things through way very focused, self-centered lens.

So I have a very simple question - is it possible ... just possible ... your individual experiences are somewhat unique to you, and not the experiences of tens of millions of other people?

Dude, you didn't read what I said to nix. I said for him to speak for himself and his own experiences and you somehow concluded the opposite. So your point doesn't make sense. I'm an individualist and my point has been consistent throughout. And the answer to your question is a resounding no. I am not an outlier. In fact, I would imagine that the OVERWHELMING percentage of minorities that stay in school, get married, and work are very successful

Which institution is racist?

izybx wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

izybx wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

izybx wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:Wait you told me to get out of my bubble, i guess the Bronx is in the bubble now? And I've lived in Georgia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Iowa. So there goes that. Whatever nix, you don't speak for all of us, speak for yourself and your own experiences. Who made you the spokesman for minorities? What gives you the right to act like you represent some sort of monolithic block?

Are you genuinely arguing the majority of minorities in the United States would testify that they don't believe discrimination prejudice exists in this country in any substantial way?

I'm talking about what I think, and giving my opinion based on my life experiences. I reject what you automatons are trying to do by put brown people in a box (labeled fragile). Rejecting the label of victim pushed on us is the first step to fulfilling the American dream, and of becoming successful.

Aren't you a police officer? What would you know about success, to lecture people about how to attain it?

Why are you going to come in here and be nasty for? We're all on the computer little man, don't use it as an excuse to be rude.

Honestly, I wasn't trying to be rude. I geniunely wanted to know what do you know about success, since success in this country is generally defined by an individual's ability to procure material wealth, ideally through novel means.

That ain't a police officer, which barely required a high school diploma. I grew up with people that became police officer's and none of them became police officers because they had an abundance of options. Hell, two of them didn't graduate from high school until they were 20 and 21, respectively. And at least one I remained in contact with, lived with their parents for the longest while because of how ****ty his salary was. So I'm not sure what makes you feel you have the calculus to determine how to be successful.

Maybe a better question would be: How do you personally define success? And we can begin dissecting, why I think you are wrong in suggesting that "working hard" can produce the popular definition of success.

And FYI, I'm 6"3' and 230lbs (albeit 15% body fat last time I checked). Just thought I'd add clarity to that "little guy" comment.

I make 200k a year to drive around at night and hunt for guns. I can retire in a couple years with an over 100k pension for the rest of my life.

Wow, that sounds like a dangerous job, which I imagine is why the compensation is relatively high. Is that right?

I'm wondering why you didn't get a graduate business degree and become a corporate CEO or or start a company and make millions in a safer environment?

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:You're twisting my words to prove a point that I don't get.

I haven't twisted your words. I'm repeating them back to you.

"We all know that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim."

"We all know..." - That's you speaking for more than just yourself, right?

"...that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim."

As I say we're having conversation. You can correct me if I'm wrong. I read that as you saying that you know this "large percentages of certain ethnic groups" haven't really experienced discrimination and prejudice, that you know their lives haven't really affected by it, that you know it is just their flawed perception.

Do I understand you correctly?

Which institution is racist?

I already gave you one example a page or so back. You may respond to it if you like.

I'll just respond to your edits. In the effort to move the conversation along I allowed that a point to be conceded (in response to a specific question) and now you are just engaging in gotcha-ism when you steered the conversation this way in the first place. It's times like this when I remember why coming on here and arguing with ideologues is tiresome and pointless. I'm going to go spend time with my kids now, enjoy your next 7 years of Trump. Don't forget to check under your bed for the White Supremacists before you go to sleep

izybx wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:You're twisting my words to prove a point that I don't get.

I haven't twisted your words. I'm repeating them back to you.

"We all know that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim."

"We all know..." - That's you speaking for more than just yourself, right?

"...that large percentages of certain ethnic groups buy into the value of being perceived as a victim."

As I say we're having conversation. You can correct me if I'm wrong. I read that as you saying that you know this "large percentages of certain ethnic groups" haven't really experienced discrimination and prejudice, that you know their lives haven't really affected by it, that you know it is just their flawed perception.

Do I understand you correctly?

Which institution is racist?

I already gave you one example a page or so back. You may respond to it if you like.

I'll just respond to your edits. In the effort to move the conversation along I allowed that a point to be conceded (in response to a specific question) and now you are just engaging in gotcha-ism when you steered the conversation this way in the first place.

So you admonish Nix for speaking for other people, but when is pointed out to you you're doing it yourself it's gotcha-ism?

That's convenient.

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

izybx wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

izybx wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:Wait you told me to get out of my bubble, i guess the Bronx is in the bubble now? And I've lived in Georgia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Iowa. So there goes that. Whatever nix, you don't speak for all of us, speak for yourself and your own experiences. Who made you the spokesman for minorities? What gives you the right to act like you represent some sort of monolithic block?

Are you genuinely arguing the majority of minorities in the United States would testify that they don't believe discrimination prejudice exists in this country in any substantial way?

I'm talking about what I think, and giving my opinion based on my life experiences. I reject what you automatons are trying to do by put brown people in a box (labeled fragile). Rejecting the label of victim pushed on us is the first step to fulfilling the American dream, and of becoming successful.

Aren't you a police officer? What would you know about success, to lecture people about how to attain it?

Why are you going to come in here and be nasty for? We're all on the computer little man, don't use it as an excuse to be rude.

Honestly, I wasn't trying to be rude. I geniunely wanted to know what do you know about success, since success in this country is generally defined by an individual's ability to procure material wealth, ideally through novel means.

That ain't a police officer, which barely required a high school diploma. I grew up with people that became police officer's and none of them became police officers because they had an abundance of options. Hell, two of them didn't graduate from high school until they were 20 and 21, respectively. And at least one I remained in contact with, lived with their parents for the longest while because of how ****ty his salary was. So I'm not sure what makes you feel you have the calculus to determine how to be successful.

Maybe a better question would be: How do you personally define success? And we can begin dissecting, why I think you are wrong in suggesting that "working hard" can produce the popular definition of success.

And FYI, I'm 6"3' and 230lbs (albeit 15% body fat last time I checked). Just thought I'd add clarity to that "little guy" comment.

I make 200k a year to drive around at night and hunt for guns. I can retire in a couple years with an over 100k pension for the rest of my life.

Wow, that sounds like a dangerous job, which I imagine is why the compensation is relatively high. Is that right?

I'm wondering why you didn't get a graduate business degree and become a corporate CEO or or start a company and make millions in a safer environment?

Do you really care? No. This conversations is going nowhere. Enjoy your day.

Care? No.

Curious? Genuinely.

Given your views, I'm interested in why you choose to be so much less successful than other people?

Same reason I joined the infantry as a teenager, im a man and I feel alive when there is danger. A man needs to test his mettle to prove himself to himself. Perhaps you enjoy the safety of your desk. That's fine, each man has his own calling.

izybx wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

izybx wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

izybx wrote:

Knickoftime wrote:

izybx wrote:Wait you told me to get out of my bubble, i guess the Bronx is in the bubble now? And I've lived in Georgia, Kentucky, Ohio, and Iowa. So there goes that. Whatever nix, you don't speak for all of us, speak for yourself and your own experiences. Who made you the spokesman for minorities? What gives you the right to act like you represent some sort of monolithic block?

Are you genuinely arguing the majority of minorities in the United States would testify that they don't believe discrimination prejudice exists in this country in any substantial way?

I'm talking about what I think, and giving my opinion based on my life experiences. I reject what you automatons are trying to do by put brown people in a box (labeled fragile). Rejecting the label of victim pushed on us is the first step to fulfilling the American dream, and of becoming successful.

Aren't you a police officer? What would you know about success, to lecture people about how to attain it?

Why are you going to come in here and be nasty for? We're all on the computer little man, don't use it as an excuse to be rude.

Honestly, I wasn't trying to be rude. I geniunely wanted to know what do you know about success, since success in this country is generally defined by an individual's ability to procure material wealth, ideally through novel means.

That ain't a police officer, which barely required a high school diploma. I grew up with people that became police officer's and none of them became police officers because they had an abundance of options. Hell, two of them didn't graduate from high school until they were 20 and 21, respectively. And at least one I remained in contact with, lived with their parents for the longest while because of how ****ty his salary was. So I'm not sure what makes you feel you have the calculus to determine how to be successful.

Maybe a better question would be: How do you personally define success? And we can begin dissecting, why I think you are wrong in suggesting that "working hard" can produce the popular definition of success.

And FYI, I'm 6"3' and 230lbs (albeit 15% body fat last time I checked). Just thought I'd add clarity to that "little guy" comment.

I make 200k a year to drive around at night and hunt for guns. I can retire in a couple years with an over 100k pension for the rest of my life.

Wow, that sounds like a dangerous job, which I imagine is why the compensation is relatively high. Is that right?

I'm wondering why you didn't get a graduate business degree and become a corporate CEO or or start a company and make millions in a safer environment?

Do you really care? No. This conversations is going nowhere. Enjoy your day.

Care? No.

Curious? Genuinely.

Given your views, I'm interested in why you choose to be so much less successful than other people?

Same reason I joined the infantry as a teenager, im a man and I feel alive when there is danger. A man needs to test his mettle to prove himself to himself. Perhaps you enjoy the safety of your desk. That's fine, each man has his own calling.

Thank you for the answer.