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Melo situation is secondary to pg
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fishmike
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7/17/2017  11:13 AM
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

must also consider next year and the free agent crop for wings (with the assumption that you want a core to grow together, in my mind Lee will be traded). Very slim pickings next year.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2018/shooting-guard/

think about Franco's comment... you cant add talent until you are ready to compete. You cant compete until you have enough talent... hmmmm

Teams that are ready to compete almost never are able to add top tier FA talent. The last two years have been the exception as every team's cap has exploded. That is an anomaly, not the norm. Most teams competing are already capped out as they already have the required talent and its being paid market value.

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fishmike
Posts: 47216
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7/17/2017  11:27 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?


Cap space does help us. It helps facilitate deals, like the one we're having trouble completing for Melo, it helps collect picks etc. Fishmike, if you believe the rumors, Tim wasn't even our first choice. We were passed over by Waiters ( thank God) who signed for a lower price. I don't really care how much Tim got paid, I care about the impact it has on us long-term. Tim is a solid NBA shooting guard. You're telling me we couldn't find one down the road. We didn't have to throw that much money. We could have paid Holiday 2/$12M and Baker his current deal, stayed under the cap, and kept it moving. One the reasons young talent is good is because it's cheap and it gives you the freedom to make more moves. THJ hasn't even played a game yet and his contract is hurting us.
No.. his contract is hurting those with grand plans of making magical things happen that rarely do. Baker is not a good player. Maybe he gets better. Holiday was not very good either and is 5 years older than Hardaway. Waiters resigned with his own team, so he chose to stay.

Comparing Hardway to guys like Baker and Holiday isnt fair. Those guys a inferior players with inferior impact. Knicks took a gamble, but it wasnt to just fill a spot. You act like they paid Hardaway $17mm to be a warm body at SG. Baker and Holiday are warm bodies. Hardaway is player that was breaking out and ended up being the 2nd best player on a winning team. They signed Tim to be a foundation guy. Now if you dont think Tim can be that guy thats a different argument but if he's even close to it the money is fair.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
BigDaddyG
Posts: 24803
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7/17/2017  11:49 AM
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?


Cap space does help us. It helps facilitate deals, like the one we're having trouble completing for Melo, it helps collect picks etc. Fishmike, if you believe the rumors, Tim wasn't even our first choice. We were passed over by Waiters ( thank God) who signed for a lower price. I don't really care how much Tim got paid, I care about the impact it has on us long-term. Tim is a solid NBA shooting guard. You're telling me we couldn't find one down the road. We didn't have to throw that much money. We could have paid Holiday 2/$12M and Baker his current deal, stayed under the cap, and kept it moving. One the reasons young talent is good is because it's cheap and it gives you the freedom to make more moves. THJ hasn't even played a game yet and his contract is hurting us.
No.. his contract is hurting those with grand plans of making magical things happen that rarely do. Baker is not a good player. Maybe he gets better. Holiday was not very good either and is 5 years older than Hardaway. Waiters resigned with his own team, so he chose to stay.

Comparing Hardway to guys like Baker and Holiday isnt fair. Those guys a inferior players with inferior impact. Knicks took a gamble, but it wasnt to just fill a spot. You act like they paid Hardaway $17mm to be a warm body at SG. Baker and Holiday are warm bodies. Hardaway is player that was breaking out and ended up being the 2nd best player on a winning team. They signed Tim to be a foundation guy. Now if you dont think Tim can be that guy thats a different argument but if he's even close to it the money is fair.


Hardaway is better than Holiday and Baker. But even if we overpaid Holiday at 2 yeare,$12 million, that deal would still be easier to move than Hardaway's current deal. Hardaway's signing is like buying a set of custom made rims before you even decide what vehicle what best suit the new area you moved too. We haven't even settled our own roster I'm balanced yet, but we're sure Hardaway is a fit for what we want to do? Has our new GM decided which path we should follow. I'm assuming Tim will be solid because that's what he's shown. Could he be a star? Maybe, but we didn't need to gamble, especially now that it's become apparent we didn't have solid plans in place for Melo and Lee.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
martin
Posts: 46001
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7/17/2017  11:58 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?


Cap space does help us. It helps facilitate deals, like the one we're having trouble completing for Melo, it helps collect picks etc. Fishmike, if you believe the rumors, Tim wasn't even our first choice. We were passed over by Waiters ( thank God) who signed for a lower price. I don't really care how much Tim got paid, I care about the impact it has on us long-term. Tim is a solid NBA shooting guard. You're telling me we couldn't find one down the road. We didn't have to throw that much money. We could have paid Holiday 2/$12M and Baker his current deal, stayed under the cap, and kept it moving. One the reasons young talent is good is because it's cheap and it gives you the freedom to make more moves. THJ hasn't even played a game yet and his contract is hurting us.
No.. his contract is hurting those with grand plans of making magical things happen that rarely do. Baker is not a good player. Maybe he gets better. Holiday was not very good either and is 5 years older than Hardaway. Waiters resigned with his own team, so he chose to stay.

Comparing Hardway to guys like Baker and Holiday isnt fair. Those guys a inferior players with inferior impact. Knicks took a gamble, but it wasnt to just fill a spot. You act like they paid Hardaway $17mm to be a warm body at SG. Baker and Holiday are warm bodies. Hardaway is player that was breaking out and ended up being the 2nd best player on a winning team. They signed Tim to be a foundation guy. Now if you dont think Tim can be that guy thats a different argument but if he's even close to it the money is fair.


Hardaway is better than Holiday and Baker. But even if we overpaid Holiday at 2 yeare,$12 million, that deal would still be easier to move than Hardaway's current deal. Hardaway's signing is like buying a set of custom made rims before you even decide what vehicle what best suit the new area you moved too. We haven't even settled our own roster I'm balanced yet, but we're sure Hardaway is a fit for what we want to do? Has our new GM decided which path we should follow. I'm assuming Tim will be solid because that's what he's shown. Could he be a star? Maybe, but we didn't need to gamble, especially now that it's become apparent we didn't have solid plans in place for Melo and Lee.

Having a plan and having it already executed are 2 different things. You make a lot of pessimistic assumptions in your post.

Holiday's deal easier to move than Tim's? Why is it already necessary to move Tim's deal? Bad assumption, he was signed to be part of a core.

We haven't settled on our own roster yet/not sure Hardaway a fit for what we want to do? Your bad assumption. He was signed to be apart of a 25 year old and younger core.

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fishmike
Posts: 47216
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7/17/2017  12:11 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?


Cap space does help us. It helps facilitate deals, like the one we're having trouble completing for Melo, it helps collect picks etc. Fishmike, if you believe the rumors, Tim wasn't even our first choice. We were passed over by Waiters ( thank God) who signed for a lower price. I don't really care how much Tim got paid, I care about the impact it has on us long-term. Tim is a solid NBA shooting guard. You're telling me we couldn't find one down the road. We didn't have to throw that much money. We could have paid Holiday 2/$12M and Baker his current deal, stayed under the cap, and kept it moving. One the reasons young talent is good is because it's cheap and it gives you the freedom to make more moves. THJ hasn't even played a game yet and his contract is hurting us.
No.. his contract is hurting those with grand plans of making magical things happen that rarely do. Baker is not a good player. Maybe he gets better. Holiday was not very good either and is 5 years older than Hardaway. Waiters resigned with his own team, so he chose to stay.

Comparing Hardway to guys like Baker and Holiday isnt fair. Those guys a inferior players with inferior impact. Knicks took a gamble, but it wasnt to just fill a spot. You act like they paid Hardaway $17mm to be a warm body at SG. Baker and Holiday are warm bodies. Hardaway is player that was breaking out and ended up being the 2nd best player on a winning team. They signed Tim to be a foundation guy. Now if you dont think Tim can be that guy thats a different argument but if he's even close to it the money is fair.


Hardaway is better than Holiday and Baker. But even if we overpaid Holiday at 2 yeare,$12 million, that deal would still be easier to move than Hardaway's current deal. Hardaway's signing is like buying a set of custom made rims before you even decide what vehicle what best suit the new area you moved too. We haven't even settled our own roster I'm balanced yet, but we're sure Hardaway is a fit for what we want to do? Has our new GM decided which path we should follow. I'm assuming Tim will be solid because that's what he's shown. Could he be a star? Maybe, but we didn't need to gamble, especially now that it's become apparent we didn't have solid plans in place for Melo and Lee.
So.. why would you be concerned about moving him? He's 25. Thats the point. The Knicks were looking for a long term piece. They wanted a young piece that could grow with KP/Willy/Ntilikina/Dotson and whoever else they view as key parts of the big picture.

I understand the advantage of being fluid and flexible. I an not arguing those advantages. They exist so you when the chance comes you can possibly add a piece to your puzzle. I am assuming that the Knicks view THjr as such, and to be fair the new GM was consulted on that move. When I look at the guys who got similar money like Crabbe, Turner, Pope, THjr is the best. Unlike Brigg's boy Crabbe who just shoots well THjr actually was the player who showed that next level of play. THjr showed he could be a go to scorer. Small sample size? Sure, but at least it was there to see!

Look.. I would have waited myself, for the same reasons you mention. So trust me, we are far closer to agreement that it probably seems. However if you have a chance to get a guy you are very high on, and view him as a potential part of the long term puzzle what is a fair price? Knicks didnt pay over market value when you look at the other FAs over the last couple years.

Everyone is more worried (understandable) about the Knicks making bad mistakes than doing something right.

Take all the names (Knicks, THjr, etc) out of this. Sports teams "overpay" for players all the time. If your team was going spend big on a guy who was not yet a star, what would your sign off requirements be?
- he's young, dont invest in players that are declining
- he's shown upside
- he's not injury prone of coming off some surgery
- he's got a good head on his shoulders, works hard (non-malcontent)
- he fits in your team concept
- he's a two-way player than can gel with multiple other player skill sets

I am probably one of the bigger defenders of the THjr deal around here, but ready what I am saying. I am not saying we should have done this. I am only saying its NOT what many are saying it is, starting with "makes no sense" or "grossly overpaid" or "head scratching...."

Its none of those things. Knicks spent to add a good young player to their squad. Most that argue against it cite money as the reason. At what point is it OK to add a young player to your team's core? Its almost silly how nervous this makes people.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
BigDaddyG
Posts: 24803
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

7/17/2017  2:33 PM
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?


Cap space does help us. It helps facilitate deals, like the one we're having trouble completing for Melo, it helps collect picks etc. Fishmike, if you believe the rumors, Tim wasn't even our first choice. We were passed over by Waiters ( thank God) who signed for a lower price. I don't really care how much Tim got paid, I care about the impact it has on us long-term. Tim is a solid NBA shooting guard. You're telling me we couldn't find one down the road. We didn't have to throw that much money. We could have paid Holiday 2/$12M and Baker his current deal, stayed under the cap, and kept it moving. One the reasons young talent is good is because it's cheap and it gives you the freedom to make more moves. THJ hasn't even played a game yet and his contract is hurting us.
No.. his contract is hurting those with grand plans of making magical things happen that rarely do. Baker is not a good player. Maybe he gets better. Holiday was not very good either and is 5 years older than Hardaway. Waiters resigned with his own team, so he chose to stay.

Comparing Hardway to guys like Baker and Holiday isnt fair. Those guys a inferior players with inferior impact. Knicks took a gamble, but it wasnt to just fill a spot. You act like they paid Hardaway $17mm to be a warm body at SG. Baker and Holiday are warm bodies. Hardaway is player that was breaking out and ended up being the 2nd best player on a winning team. They signed Tim to be a foundation guy. Now if you dont think Tim can be that guy thats a different argument but if he's even close to it the money is fair.


Hardaway is better than Holiday and Baker. But even if we overpaid Holiday at 2 yeare,$12 million, that deal would still be easier to move than Hardaway's current deal. Hardaway's signing is like buying a set of custom made rims before you even decide what vehicle what best suit the new area you moved too. We haven't even settled our own roster I'm balanced yet, but we're sure Hardaway is a fit for what we want to do? Has our new GM decided which path we should follow. I'm assuming Tim will be solid because that's what he's shown. Could he be a star? Maybe, but we didn't need to gamble, especially now that it's become apparent we didn't have solid plans in place for Melo and Lee.
So.. why would you be concerned about moving him? He's 25. Thats the point. The Knicks were looking for a long term piece. They wanted a young piece that could grow with KP/Willy/Ntilikina/Dotson and whoever else they view as key parts of the big picture.

I understand the advantage of being fluid and flexible. I an not arguing those advantages. They exist so you when the chance comes you can possibly add a piece to your puzzle. I am assuming that the Knicks view THjr as such, and to be fair the new GM was consulted on that move. When I look at the guys who got similar money like Crabbe, Turner, Pope, THjr is the best. Unlike Brigg's boy Crabbe who just shoots well THjr actually was the player who showed that next level of play. THjr showed he could be a go to scorer. Small sample size? Sure, but at least it was there to see!

Look.. I would have waited myself, for the same reasons you mention. So trust me, we are far closer to agreement that it probably seems. However if you have a chance to get a guy you are very high on, and view him as a potential part of the long term puzzle what is a fair price? Knicks didnt pay over market value when you look at the other FAs over the last couple years.

Everyone is more worried (understandable) about the Knicks making bad mistakes than doing something right.

Take all the names (Knicks, THjr, etc) out of this. Sports teams "overpay" for players all the time. If your team was going spend big on a guy who was not yet a star, what would your sign off requirements be?
- he's young, dont invest in players that are declining
- he's shown upside
- he's not injury prone of coming off some surgery
- he's got a good head on his shoulders, works hard (non-malcontent)
- he fits in your team concept
- he's a two-way player than can gel with multiple other player skill sets

I am probably one of the bigger defenders of the THjr deal around here, but ready what I am saying. I am not saying we should have done this. I am only saying its NOT what many are saying it is, starting with "makes no sense" or "grossly overpaid" or "head scratching...."

Its none of those things. Knicks spent to add a good young player to their squad. Most that argue against it cite money as the reason. At what point is it OK to add a young player to your team's core? Its almost silly how nervous this makes people.

You put in time as a Knicks fan, so you know lol I could easily turn that around and say it's silly for fans to show even the slightest hint of confidence in this franchise. What's done is done. Complaining about the deal won't make it go away and fans are going to have to accept it. I hop THJ becomes an All-Star, for everyone's sake.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fishmike
Posts: 47216
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
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7/17/2017  3:45 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?


Cap space does help us. It helps facilitate deals, like the one we're having trouble completing for Melo, it helps collect picks etc. Fishmike, if you believe the rumors, Tim wasn't even our first choice. We were passed over by Waiters ( thank God) who signed for a lower price. I don't really care how much Tim got paid, I care about the impact it has on us long-term. Tim is a solid NBA shooting guard. You're telling me we couldn't find one down the road. We didn't have to throw that much money. We could have paid Holiday 2/$12M and Baker his current deal, stayed under the cap, and kept it moving. One the reasons young talent is good is because it's cheap and it gives you the freedom to make more moves. THJ hasn't even played a game yet and his contract is hurting us.
No.. his contract is hurting those with grand plans of making magical things happen that rarely do. Baker is not a good player. Maybe he gets better. Holiday was not very good either and is 5 years older than Hardaway. Waiters resigned with his own team, so he chose to stay.

Comparing Hardway to guys like Baker and Holiday isnt fair. Those guys a inferior players with inferior impact. Knicks took a gamble, but it wasnt to just fill a spot. You act like they paid Hardaway $17mm to be a warm body at SG. Baker and Holiday are warm bodies. Hardaway is player that was breaking out and ended up being the 2nd best player on a winning team. They signed Tim to be a foundation guy. Now if you dont think Tim can be that guy thats a different argument but if he's even close to it the money is fair.


Hardaway is better than Holiday and Baker. But even if we overpaid Holiday at 2 yeare,$12 million, that deal would still be easier to move than Hardaway's current deal. Hardaway's signing is like buying a set of custom made rims before you even decide what vehicle what best suit the new area you moved too. We haven't even settled our own roster I'm balanced yet, but we're sure Hardaway is a fit for what we want to do? Has our new GM decided which path we should follow. I'm assuming Tim will be solid because that's what he's shown. Could he be a star? Maybe, but we didn't need to gamble, especially now that it's become apparent we didn't have solid plans in place for Melo and Lee.
So.. why would you be concerned about moving him? He's 25. Thats the point. The Knicks were looking for a long term piece. They wanted a young piece that could grow with KP/Willy/Ntilikina/Dotson and whoever else they view as key parts of the big picture.

I understand the advantage of being fluid and flexible. I an not arguing those advantages. They exist so you when the chance comes you can possibly add a piece to your puzzle. I am assuming that the Knicks view THjr as such, and to be fair the new GM was consulted on that move. When I look at the guys who got similar money like Crabbe, Turner, Pope, THjr is the best. Unlike Brigg's boy Crabbe who just shoots well THjr actually was the player who showed that next level of play. THjr showed he could be a go to scorer. Small sample size? Sure, but at least it was there to see!

Look.. I would have waited myself, for the same reasons you mention. So trust me, we are far closer to agreement that it probably seems. However if you have a chance to get a guy you are very high on, and view him as a potential part of the long term puzzle what is a fair price? Knicks didnt pay over market value when you look at the other FAs over the last couple years.

Everyone is more worried (understandable) about the Knicks making bad mistakes than doing something right.

Take all the names (Knicks, THjr, etc) out of this. Sports teams "overpay" for players all the time. If your team was going spend big on a guy who was not yet a star, what would your sign off requirements be?
- he's young, dont invest in players that are declining
- he's shown upside
- he's not injury prone of coming off some surgery
- he's got a good head on his shoulders, works hard (non-malcontent)
- he fits in your team concept
- he's a two-way player than can gel with multiple other player skill sets

I am probably one of the bigger defenders of the THjr deal around here, but ready what I am saying. I am not saying we should have done this. I am only saying its NOT what many are saying it is, starting with "makes no sense" or "grossly overpaid" or "head scratching...."

Its none of those things. Knicks spent to add a good young player to their squad. Most that argue against it cite money as the reason. At what point is it OK to add a young player to your team's core? Its almost silly how nervous this makes people.

You put in time as a Knicks fan, so you know lol I could easily turn that around and say it's silly for fans to show even the slightest hint of confidence in this franchise. What's done is done. Complaining about the deal won't make it go away and fans are going to have to accept it. I hop THJ becomes an All-Star, for everyone's sake.

you and me both brother!!!!! I dont blame anyone for expecting anything with the Knicks to be a clown show and nothing but. However its a new day, so we should have at least 30 or days before all the talent that Perry brought over is crushed by MSG dark cloud
fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
knicks1248
Posts: 35861
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7/17/2017  5:15 PM
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?


Cap space does help us. It helps facilitate deals, like the one we're having trouble completing for Melo, it helps collect picks etc. Fishmike, if you believe the rumors, Tim wasn't even our first choice. We were passed over by Waiters ( thank God) who signed for a lower price. I don't really care how much Tim got paid, I care about the impact it has on us long-term. Tim is a solid NBA shooting guard. You're telling me we couldn't find one down the road. We didn't have to throw that much money. We could have paid Holiday 2/$12M and Baker his current deal, stayed under the cap, and kept it moving. One the reasons young talent is good is because it's cheap and it gives you the freedom to make more moves. THJ hasn't even played a game yet and his contract is hurting us.
No.. his contract is hurting those with grand plans of making magical things happen that rarely do. Baker is not a good player. Maybe he gets better. Holiday was not very good either and is 5 years older than Hardaway. Waiters resigned with his own team, so he chose to stay.

Comparing Hardway to guys like Baker and Holiday isnt fair. Those guys a inferior players with inferior impact. Knicks took a gamble, but it wasnt to just fill a spot. You act like they paid Hardaway $17mm to be a warm body at SG. Baker and Holiday are warm bodies. Hardaway is player that was breaking out and ended up being the 2nd best player on a winning team. They signed Tim to be a foundation guy. Now if you dont think Tim can be that guy thats a different argument but if he's even close to it the money is fair.


Hardaway is better than Holiday and Baker. But even if we overpaid Holiday at 2 yeare,$12 million, that deal would still be easier to move than Hardaway's current deal. Hardaway's signing is like buying a set of custom made rims before you even decide what vehicle what best suit the new area you moved too. We haven't even settled our own roster I'm balanced yet, but we're sure Hardaway is a fit for what we want to do? Has our new GM decided which path we should follow. I'm assuming Tim will be solid because that's what he's shown. Could he be a star? Maybe, but we didn't need to gamble, especially now that it's become apparent we didn't have solid plans in place for Melo and Lee.
So.. why would you be concerned about moving him? He's 25. Thats the point. The Knicks were looking for a long term piece. They wanted a young piece that could grow with KP/Willy/Ntilikina/Dotson and whoever else they view as key parts of the big picture.

I understand the advantage of being fluid and flexible. I an not arguing those advantages. They exist so you when the chance comes you can possibly add a piece to your puzzle. I am assuming that the Knicks view THjr as such, and to be fair the new GM was consulted on that move. When I look at the guys who got similar money like Crabbe, Turner, Pope, THjr is the best. Unlike Brigg's boy Crabbe who just shoots well THjr actually was the player who showed that next level of play. THjr showed he could be a go to scorer. Small sample size? Sure, but at least it was there to see!

Look.. I would have waited myself, for the same reasons you mention. So trust me, we are far closer to agreement that it probably seems. However if you have a chance to get a guy you are very high on, and view him as a potential part of the long term puzzle what is a fair price? Knicks didnt pay over market value when you look at the other FAs over the last couple years.

Everyone is more worried (understandable) about the Knicks making bad mistakes than doing something right.

Take all the names (Knicks, THjr, etc) out of this. Sports teams "overpay" for players all the time. If your team was going spend big on a guy who was not yet a star, what would your sign off requirements be?
- he's young, dont invest in players that are declining
- he's shown upside
- he's not injury prone of coming off some surgery
- he's got a good head on his shoulders, works hard (non-malcontent)
- he fits in your team concept
- he's a two-way player than can gel with multiple other player skill sets

I am probably one of the bigger defenders of the THjr deal around here, but ready what I am saying. I am not saying we should have done this. I am only saying its NOT what many are saying it is, starting with "makes no sense" or "grossly overpaid" or "head scratching...."

Its none of those things. Knicks spent to add a good young player to their squad. Most that argue against it cite money as the reason. At what point is it OK to add a young player to your team's core? Its almost silly how nervous this makes people.

You put in time as a Knicks fan, so you know lol I could easily turn that around and say it's silly for fans to show even the slightest hint of confidence in this franchise. What's done is done. Complaining about the deal won't make it go away and fans are going to have to accept it. I hop THJ becomes an All-Star, for everyone's sake.

you and me both brother!!!!! I dont blame anyone for expecting anything with the Knicks to be a clown show and nothing but. However its a new day, so we should have at least 30 or days before all the talent that Perry brought over is crushed by MSG dark cloud

I'm just sick of the one sided moves that have taking place with every single prez/gm that takes over.

1)triangle- great system, but knicks never had the talent of coach to run it

2)MDA- great hire, but no pg to run his system

3)Amare- solid pick up, but ran him into the ground his first 4 months

4)melo- great pick up, but put trash around him

5)lin- great find perfect for MDA system, but horrible pairing with melo

6)phil Jackson- Great coach, but we hire him has a president

These are just a few of the incomplete moves the franchise always make. Now we have a young core with some suspect vets around them.

ES
franco12
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7/17/2017  5:41 PM
fishmike wrote:
martin wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

must also consider next year and the free agent crop for wings (with the assumption that you want a core to grow together, in my mind Lee will be traded). Very slim pickings next year.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2018/shooting-guard/

think about Franco's comment... you cant add talent until you are ready to compete. You cant compete until you have enough talent... hmmmm

Teams that are ready to compete almost never are able to add top tier FA talent. The last two years have been the exception as every team's cap has exploded. That is an anomaly, not the norm. Most teams competing are already capped out as they already have the required talent and its being paid market value.

I'm open minded about the season, but I think we're 3 years away from being able to compete.

Personally, I'd have kept flexibility and added more talent through the draft over the next year or two. Then, looked to bring in talent via FA hopefully once I felt like my draft picks (KP, Frank, Willy) were starting to develop into real talent.

Our cap is kinda shot at this point:

Melo, Noah, Lee & now Timmy Jr. take up nearly 72% of the cap @ $72m

I'm sorry, the problem isn't Timmy, it's Noah, Lee & Melo.

We're compounding mistakes to cover up mistakes. At some point you just have to bleed out, chop dead, and move on with a new direction.

nixluva
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7/17/2017  6:06 PM
Sorry but I prefer the idea that was basically started with Phil still here and continued by Mills, Jeff and Petty. Put a young core together and let them grow TOGETHER. If they play well and slide into a playoff spot, GREAT. If they play hard but fall into the lottery, GREAT. The course is set already. All we're waiting on is to see what trades are made this summer.
meloshouldgo
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7/17/2017  6:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/17/2017  6:22 PM
nixluva wrote:Sorry but I prefer the idea that was basically started with Phil still here and continued by Mills, Jeff and Petty. Put a young core together and let them grow TOGETHER. If they play well and slide into a playoff spot, GREAT. If they play hard but fall into the lottery, GREAT. The course is set already. All we're waiting on is to see what trades are made this summer.

Are you familiar with payoff charts on option trades? It shows a bell curve where you make money on both sides. It also shows that the two sides combined have a probability of around 20%. It's the fat middle part of the chart which shows 37 wins and the 9th pick that we are worried about.

It's all well and good to not trade picks, but then if you take steps to ensure that those picks end up in the 9-20 range, you are just waiting time. Patience is an unpopular concept and all this hype about young core and THJR being at the cusp of becoming an ALL STAR is just noise. At the end of the day this is high risk, high reward move with low probability of success.

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
CrushAlot
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7/17/2017  6:38 PM
nixluva wrote:Sorry but I prefer the idea that was basically started with Phil still here and continued by Mills, Jeff and Petty. Put a young core together and let them grow TOGETHER. If they play well and slide into a playoff spot, GREAT. If they play hard but fall into the lottery, GREAT. The course is set already. All we're waiting on is to see what trades are made this summer.
It is a great idea but the Knicks did move young players, Hardaway/Grant, and haven't maintained roster/coaching continuity. I dont think Ndour, Plumlee, and Randle are going to be a part of the growing process despite their youth. Hopefully now that the Knicks have their picks and a new management team roster continuity can be a part of the new culture. I am not sure if Jeff is the right coach but if he is I hope the new management team sticks with him or whomever they replace him with for a few years.
I've seen scant proof that a majestic aura trumps a sound plan, but maybe that's just because I wasn't looking at Phil Jackson... Seth Rosenthal 2014
nyknickzingis
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7/19/2017  1:58 PM
I think the rebuilding began during the 2014-15 season.
At end of that season got Porzingis. Traded to draft Willy.

We are now at a place where we can actually say we have some young talent. Couldn't say this a few years ago.

Hernangomez
Porzingis
Kuzminskas
Hardaway/Dotson
Ntilikina/Baker

You may not love all 7 of those guys, but it's way better than what we had when 2014-15 began.

Melo situation is secondary to pg

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