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Melo situation is secondary to pg
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BRIGGS
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7/17/2017  12:42 AM
Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

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Knickoftime
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7/17/2017  1:14 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

If that's the case, they're better off without one.

No pg this side of Westbrook or Paul is going to take them from 25 wins to 41+.

A good one may take them from 25 to 30.

nixluva
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7/17/2017  1:33 AM
The TEAM will experience a good amount of internal growth IMO. The PG spot is a concern but not as much as people think. I fully expect Jeff to continue to make use of not just Spread PnR but also Triangle Principles that don't rely on great PG play but rather Ball and Player Movement. Screens, Dribble Handoffs and Cuts! Pretty much how the Warriors play.

Neither Baker nor Nitty are pure PG's. Unless they added a Pure PG I doubt the Knicks abandon a style that doesn't depend on one. Jeff has had success with Combo Guards so I expect he knows something about this.

blkexec
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7/17/2017  3:05 AM
nixluva wrote:The TEAM will experience a good amount of internal growth IMO. The PG spot is a concern but not as much as people think. I fully expect Jeff to continue to make use of not just Spread PnR but also Triangle Principles that don't rely on great PG play but rather Ball and Player Movement. Screens, Dribble Handoffs and Cuts! Pretty much how the Warriors play.

Neither Baker nor Nitty are pure PG's. Unless they added a Pure PG I doubt the Knicks abandon a style that doesn't depend on one. Jeff has had success with Combo Guards so I expect he knows something about this.

I have Laker fan friends and they are down on Balls defense. Makes you appreciate Frank even more. One thing I can be assure of is his defense. Thats his claim to fame....Thats what he will be known for as a rookie. The offense can and will come later.....If sooner, then great. But defending these numerous scoring PG's and SG's is a must have right now.

Getting his feet wet early is also a good thing. Remember, hes not the ordinary rookie. He has some pro experience against grown men.....Unlike other rookies who play against college boys. He will adapt quicker than most think, by simply playing the right way, and playing defense. Baker and Frank are above average defenders with length for the PG or SG spot.

Q: What is the difference between a Knicks fan and a baby? A: The baby will stop whining after awhile.
smackeddog
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7/17/2017  5:02 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

Absolutely stinking is good for us- we need to add another few high lottery talents. pretty obvious by now we can't add franchise changing talents via free agency or trades. The draft is the only way.

TheGame
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7/17/2017  5:47 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/17/2017  5:48 AM
I am sure they will get some vet pg to play for a one-year minimum contract at some point before the start of the year. A guy like Norris cole or Ronnie price or even an Andre miller could be had on a cheap one year deal. I want them to give Frank at least 18 min a game if he is up to it. We might as well use this year to develop our young guys. plus you don't pay Baker $4 mil to not play him. I think they think he is our starting pg for this season, which would not have been my first preference but I can live with it.
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franco12
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7/17/2017  6:44 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

nyknickzingis
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7/17/2017  6:46 AM
For whatever it's worth I'd trade Rose for Hardaway and Ntilkina without hesitation.
I think we're a little better as a team as Porzingis, Hernangoez, Hardaway and Baker are a year older, more experienced and a little better while we still keep Melo.

But we most likely are trading Melo, so the team will likely not get equal value back.
They'll be a worse team, most likely.

For arguments sake though

Hernangomez/O'Quinn/Noah
Porzingis/Thomas
Melo/Kuzminskas
Hardaway/Lee
Baker/Ntilikina

No reason to think that team can't win 30 to 32 games like the last two years temas have.

Knixkik
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7/17/2017  9:03 AM
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.

Knixkik
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7/17/2017  9:06 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:For whatever it's worth I'd trade Rose for Hardaway and Ntilkina without hesitation.
I think we're a little better as a team as Porzingis, Hernangoez, Hardaway and Baker are a year older, more experienced and a little better while we still keep Melo.

But we most likely are trading Melo, so the team will likely not get equal value back.
They'll be a worse team, most likely.

For arguments sake though

Hernangomez/O'Quinn/Noah
Porzingis/Thomas
Melo/Kuzminskas
Hardaway/Lee
Baker/Ntilikina

No reason to think that team can't win 30 to 32 games like the last two years temas have.

Yeah i think we will win around the same amount of games as the last 2 seasons. We are rebuilding, not tanking, so winning with a growing young team is important to development.

BigDaddyG
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7/17/2017  9:41 AM
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
fishmike
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7/17/2017  9:46 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?
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Knixkik
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7/17/2017  9:49 AM
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?

Vmart
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7/17/2017  9:53 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/17/2017  9:54 AM
Getting rid of Melo is the number one thing. You can't have him back on the team. It won't work for a team in rebuild. He demands to many shots and makes no one better. Put it this way the young players will not come into their own if he is still here. The Knicks really don't need another pg they have enough in Baker, Randle and Ntlikina who should get playing time right of the bat. They should consider starting him.
SupremeCommander
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7/17/2017  9:57 AM
I agree. I think we need a Chris Duhon pt II. Overpay a guy for two years so we don't ruin our young guys
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newyorker4ever
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7/17/2017  10:24 AM
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

Ummmmmmmmm you do realize that we're rebuilding and having the highest pick possible helps us not hurts us right?? It shouldn't be about winning next year for us. I also don't think we're gonna have a problem trading for a vet PG if we don't get one in this Melo deal cause there's already rumors of teams calling about trading for C.Lee and KOQ but i do think the Melo trade should be done before we do anything with C.Lee or KOQ cause we could still use both of them next year if we don't absolutely have to trade them or if we're not getting the right offers for either of them.

Knixkik
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7/17/2017  10:32 AM
newyorker4ever wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

Ummmmmmmmm you do realize that we're rebuilding and having the highest pick possible helps us not hurts us right?? It shouldn't be about winning next year for us. I also don't think we're gonna have a problem trading for a vet PG if we don't get one in this Melo deal cause there's already rumors of teams calling about trading for C.Lee and KOQ but i do think the Melo trade should be done before we do anything with C.Lee or KOQ cause we could still use both of them next year if we don't absolutely have to trade them or if we're not getting the right offers for either of them.

It is about winning to an extent though. We have a young core of players, and if they can learn to win by leading the way, that is great. We aren't one of those rebuilding teams looking to tank our way to a franchise player, we have that already. If we aren't ready to win, fine, we get a high draft pick. But the hope is that our group of young players can exceed expectations and have some sort of success, which will really accelerate their development.

newyorker4ever
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7/17/2017  10:33 AM
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:The TEAM will experience a good amount of internal growth IMO. The PG spot is a concern but not as much as people think. I fully expect Jeff to continue to make use of not just Spread PnR but also Triangle Principles that don't rely on great PG play but rather Ball and Player Movement. Screens, Dribble Handoffs and Cuts! Pretty much how the Warriors play.

Neither Baker nor Nitty are pure PG's. Unless they added a Pure PG I doubt the Knicks abandon a style that doesn't depend on one. Jeff has had success with Combo Guards so I expect he knows something about this.

I have Laker fan friends and they are down on Balls defense. Makes you appreciate Frank even more. One thing I can be assure of is his defense. Thats his claim to fame....Thats what he will be known for as a rookie. The offense can and will come later.....If sooner, then great. But defending these numerous scoring PG's and SG's is a must have right now.

Getting his feet wet early is also a good thing. Remember, hes not the ordinary rookie. He has some pro experience against grown men.....Unlike other rookies who play against college boys. He will adapt quicker than most think, by simply playing the right way, and playing defense. Baker and Frank are above average defenders with length for the PG or SG spot.

Yes i agree that we won't need offense from our PG's since we have plenty of offense already with KP, Willy, C.Lee, THJ, D.Dotson and others so all we need from our PG will be defense and being able to distribute the ball which both Frank and Baker can do. I'm sure they're still gonna add a vet PG by the time the season starts anyway so i'm not that worried about it as of now.

martin
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7/17/2017  11:07 AM
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

must also consider next year and the free agent crop for wings (with the assumption that you want a core to grow together, in my mind Lee will be traded). Very slim pickings next year.

http://www.spotrac.com/nba/free-agents/2018/shooting-guard/

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BigDaddyG
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7/17/2017  11:11 AM
Knixkik wrote:
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Were going to absolutely stink without a solid pro pg-- melo here or not. Our team is so unbalanced and if we have to rely on baker and Frank--25 wins tops.

We have barely changed a bad team. We added a Sg who just takes the place of basically the same thing while we lost our vet pg.

They can play ring around the Rosie with Carmelo who cares-- were going to be a top 10 lottery team again with this roster-- even in the shtty east

which is why the Tim Hardaway signing is so poorly thought out. Yes, we added talent, but we're still aways from competing seriously.

That's exactly why he was signed. He's 25. The plan is to invest in long-term pieces, because we are a ways away from competing. So we are investing in players who can grow with the core.


The problem isn't that he was signed. It's the price. We can invest through the drafts, free agents, cheap former first-rounder who have talent but haven't put it together. We aren't under the gun to win this year, so it made no sense for us to invest that much money in Tim. And when I say money, I mean cap space. I don't really care how much someone gets paid. If this MLB, I wouldn't care. But we're deadlocked with the cap and can't make any real moves.
who out there do you view as a much better investment than Tim? What are the moves that Tim now keeps you from making?

This is right. Cap space doesn't really help us right now. I'm sure it will be more valuable when Noah, Lee, and Thomas are off the books, but that's in a few years. But for now, why not use the cap space investing (and overpaying) in young talent if we really believe it will be a huge boost to the rebuilding effort?


Cap space does help us. It helps facilitate deals, like the one we're having trouble completing for Melo, it helps collect picks etc. Fishmike, if you believe the rumors, Tim wasn't even our first choice. We were passed over by Waiters ( thank God) who signed for a lower price. I don't really care how much Tim got paid, I care about the impact it has on us long-term. Tim is a solid NBA shooting guard. You're telling me we couldn't find one down the road. We didn't have to throw that much money. We could have paid Holiday 2/$12M and Baker his current deal, stayed under the cap, and kept it moving. One the reasons young talent is good is because it's cheap and it gives you the freedom to make more moves. THJ hasn't even played a game yet and his contract is hurting us.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Melo situation is secondary to pg

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