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The Knicks' offer sheet to Tim Hardaway Jr. is the first truly bad contract of the 2017 offseason
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GustavBahler
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7/7/2017  10:05 AM
I hope they're wrong.....

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/07/nba-free-agency-new-york-knicks-tim-hardaway-jr-offer-sheet-overpaid-bad-contract


Take a look at the list of free agents who have signed in this crazy NBA offseason and you’ll see something curious: There aren’t too many bad contracts. Nothing too outlandish or out of the question (although some would argue Otto Porter’s four-year $106.5 million offer sheet counts).

That is, until now. And of course the New York Knicks had to be the ones to break that streak.

The franchise signed guard Tim Hardaway Jr. to a four-year, $71 million offer sheet, which can be matched by the Atlanta Hawks by Saturday. But as USA TODAY Sports’ Sam Amick points out, “that far exceeds anything that most NBA executives anticipated for the 25-year-old who was drafted by the Knicks in 2013.”

That’s absolutely correct. Hardaway broke out last season as an effective scorer off the bench for the Hawks, averaging 14.5 points per contest on 45.5 percent shooting. That’s pretty good, but not four-years, $71 million good. That’s money predicting he’ll repeat and exceed what he did as a 24-year-old.

Want some perspective? That’s a bigger contract than what Patty Mills (four years, $50 million) and Dion Waiters (four years, $52 million) got. There’s no way that should be the case. And the funny thing is, Hardaway’s potential journey back to New York is absurd:


When Knicks fans watched the franchise and Phil Jackson part ways, they thought things would be different. But unless Hardaway Jr. goes from sixth man to solid starting shooting guard, he’ll be overpaid, joining Joakim Noah and his massive cap hit. It feels like a rudderless move for a franchise that needs direction, and if Carmelo Anthony is traded or bought out, a rebuild is in order. Tying up $71 million on a player like Hardaway Jr. doesn’t match that plan.

Here are a few tweets from flummoxed folks on Twitter:






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fishmike
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7/7/2017  10:19 AM
lot of drama here. This is not a move I would have made but its not a head scratcher. THjr turned a big corner and played very well on both sides of the ball. If you are looking for an upward trending young player to risk some money on continuing that trend than THjr is a reasonable gamble. He fits the rebuilding time line. We will see what the other moves are as well.

If Atl doesnt match and the Knicks get a player who continues what he did as a starter last year there is nothing wrong with this. Time will tell. Its not great but its not the total WTF head scratcher that some make it out to be.

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GustavBahler
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7/7/2017  10:28 AM
fishmike wrote:lot of drama here. This is not a move I would have made but its not a head scratcher. THjr turned a big corner and played very well on both sides of the ball. If you are looking for an upward trending young player to risk some money on continuing that trend than THjr is a reasonable gamble. He fits the rebuilding time line. We will see what the other moves are as well.

If Atl doesnt match and the Knicks get a player who continues what he did as a starter last year there is nothing wrong with this. Time will tell. Its not great but its not the total WTF head scratcher that some make it out to be.

A team gives someone a deal like that not long after trading them away, that's drama alright. Im more stunned than anything. I was a fan of THJ his rookie year, was more clutch than Melo that season. But I was glad to see him go after his second season because I thought he flaked out, didn't put in the effort to improve his game. Sounds like Mills isnt going anywhere. This looks like more of the same.

fishmike
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7/7/2017  10:34 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:lot of drama here. This is not a move I would have made but its not a head scratcher. THjr turned a big corner and played very well on both sides of the ball. If you are looking for an upward trending young player to risk some money on continuing that trend than THjr is a reasonable gamble. He fits the rebuilding time line. We will see what the other moves are as well.

If Atl doesnt match and the Knicks get a player who continues what he did as a starter last year there is nothing wrong with this. Time will tell. Its not great but its not the total WTF head scratcher that some make it out to be.

A team gives someone a deal like that not long after trading them away, that's drama alright. Im more stunned than anything. I was a fan of THJ his rookie year, was more clutch than Melo that season. But I was glad to see him go after his second season because I thought he flaked out, didn't put in the effort to improve his game. Sounds like Mills isnt going anywhere. This looks like more of the same.

it was 2 years ago, and they didnt trade him away. JR and Shump were traded away. THjr was traded for a young PG on draft night. I think there is a difference. You look at THjr last 2 years. He went to the D league, really struggled and popped last year. Is he trending upward or did he just find a comfort zone?

Also the fact that he WAS here is a positive, not a negative. Clearly they liked him as a person but were not high on him as a player. He's turned that corner in a big way. Is the THjr that finished the year the guy we signed? If so the Knicks did just fine. IF not... well that is the risk.

THjr: Trending upward. Finished strong. 24 years old fits with youth timeline. Athletic. Good size for the position. Skills have improved.

Risk: cap hit and dead contract prevents growth from a player like Dotson and hurts Knicks flexibility moving forward.

You know what changes this a lot? If the Knicks get a first rounder or other good asset for Lee.

fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
CrushAlot
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7/7/2017  10:37 AM
At least Sam Amick didnt write the article.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
smackeddog
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7/7/2017  10:42 AM
It's a bad deal, but it's not the first bad contract of the offseason, nor is it the worst. I don't like the signing at all but I get bored of the media's hyperbole. Last year they were mocking us for how good Tim Jr looked, now we've got him back he's trash again. zzzzzzzzzzzz
Welpee
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7/7/2017  10:43 AM
Was it that we weren't happy with Hardaway or did we really like Jerian Grant and wanted to make the deal so that we could draft him? Maybe a combination of both? I don't mind requiring THJ, just not at that price. However, if the Knicks really wanted him that had to overpay to motivate the Hawks to not match the offer sheet.
GustavBahler
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7/7/2017  10:44 AM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:lot of drama here. This is not a move I would have made but its not a head scratcher. THjr turned a big corner and played very well on both sides of the ball. If you are looking for an upward trending young player to risk some money on continuing that trend than THjr is a reasonable gamble. He fits the rebuilding time line. We will see what the other moves are as well.

If Atl doesnt match and the Knicks get a player who continues what he did as a starter last year there is nothing wrong with this. Time will tell. Its not great but its not the total WTF head scratcher that some make it out to be.

A team gives someone a deal like that not long after trading them away, that's drama alright. Im more stunned than anything. I was a fan of THJ his rookie year, was more clutch than Melo that season. But I was glad to see him go after his second season because I thought he flaked out, didn't put in the effort to improve his game. Sounds like Mills isnt going anywhere. This looks like more of the same.

it was 2 years ago, and they didnt trade him away. JR and Shump were traded away. THjr was traded for a young PG on draft night. I think there is a difference. You look at THjr last 2 years. He went to the D league, really struggled and popped last year. Is he trending upward or did he just find a comfort zone?

Also the fact that he WAS here is a positive, not a negative. Clearly they liked him as a person but were not high on him as a player. He's turned that corner in a big way. Is the THjr that finished the year the guy we signed? If so the Knicks did just fine. IF not... well that is the risk.

THjr: Trending upward. Finished strong. 24 years old fits with youth timeline. Athletic. Good size for the position. Skills have improved.

Risk: cap hit and dead contract prevents growth from a player like Dotson and hurts Knicks flexibility moving forward.

You know what changes this a lot? If the Knicks get a first rounder or other good asset for Lee.

Read your first sentence again fishbone. "He wasn't traded.. he was traded...."

Dont believe 2 years is that long, and his numbers not so improved that he should be tying up that much cap space for the next 4 years. THJ is going to have to play like a starter, not like someone who has found a niche off the bench.

This is a risk, but it also really smacks of playing it safe. Like going to a system that no one plays anymore because its familiar, or signing players to big contracts because they're from Utah, or Chicago, or they've played here before. Like keeping Mills on regardless of his record. Its a franchise that seeks the familiar. We dont need familiar anymore.

mlby1215
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7/7/2017  10:45 AM
I don't think it is reasonable. It is not the place we really need help. We probably need better defenders or someone who could pass but he is none of them. It is not like we are defending very well but lack a go-to guy on offense. Moreover, we didn't resign Holiday for 9mil/2yr, and we don't like Rose for the exact same weaknesses. (no defend, no passing) I mean, Mills probably really like THjr and didn't want him to go.

It is much different from what Phil did. For one, Phil signed Noah but he signed Robin Lopez and C. Lee as well. He gambled on health but not maturity. If he signed big contracts, the targets tend to be experienced old vet. Another difference is that He paid a lot of attention on role players. O'Quinn, Holiday, Lee and Lopez are/were role players. He didn't sign a young player a big contract and hoped him turned to be superstar.

Current management obviously doesn't care too much about role players. At the moment we still don't know the shape of the team. For example, who is going to back up Frank? Assuming he will be our starting PG. If he is not, obviously we don't have money to sign one. It really need us to trade away Lee for one.

It is clearly we move too slowly. Other teams are probably already settled but we still need some major pieces.

And I don't think Melo will be moved. If Mills really wants to win now, then he probably cannot trade away Melo for a better guy. Sure Melo wants to go, but can he?

fishmike
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7/7/2017  10:53 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:lot of drama here. This is not a move I would have made but its not a head scratcher. THjr turned a big corner and played very well on both sides of the ball. If you are looking for an upward trending young player to risk some money on continuing that trend than THjr is a reasonable gamble. He fits the rebuilding time line. We will see what the other moves are as well.

If Atl doesnt match and the Knicks get a player who continues what he did as a starter last year there is nothing wrong with this. Time will tell. Its not great but its not the total WTF head scratcher that some make it out to be.

A team gives someone a deal like that not long after trading them away, that's drama alright. Im more stunned than anything. I was a fan of THJ his rookie year, was more clutch than Melo that season. But I was glad to see him go after his second season because I thought he flaked out, didn't put in the effort to improve his game. Sounds like Mills isnt going anywhere. This looks like more of the same.

it was 2 years ago, and they didnt trade him away. JR and Shump were traded away. THjr was traded for a young PG on draft night. I think there is a difference. You look at THjr last 2 years. He went to the D league, really struggled and popped last year. Is he trending upward or did he just find a comfort zone?

Also the fact that he WAS here is a positive, not a negative. Clearly they liked him as a person but were not high on him as a player. He's turned that corner in a big way. Is the THjr that finished the year the guy we signed? If so the Knicks did just fine. IF not... well that is the risk.

THjr: Trending upward. Finished strong. 24 years old fits with youth timeline. Athletic. Good size for the position. Skills have improved.

Risk: cap hit and dead contract prevents growth from a player like Dotson and hurts Knicks flexibility moving forward.

You know what changes this a lot? If the Knicks get a first rounder or other good asset for Lee.

Read your first sentence again fishbone. "He wasn't traded.. he was traded...."

Dont believe 2 years is that long, and his numbers not so improved that he should be tying up that much cap space for the next 4 years. THJ is going to have to play like a starter, not like someone who has found a niche off the bench.

This is a risk, but it also really smacks of playing it safe. Like going to a system that no one plays anymore because its familiar, or signing players to big contracts because they're from Utah, or Chicago, or they've played here before. Like keeping Mills on regardless of his record. Its a franchise that seeks the familiar. We dont need familiar anymore.

totally disagree... this is not familiar at all. Knicks bad contracts have ALWAYS been for over the hill vets or player with no upside. Spoon, Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Amare, Lee, Noah, Lopez, Afflalo, on and on... I dont ever remember taking a shot on a player with honest upside.

If the Knicks are getting the player that finished the last 30ish games as a starter than this is a good player and good contract and a good fit with the young guys already here. The risk is he is not that player.

When was the last time the Knicks took a shot on a guy who was 24? This is not same old Knicks. Risky? Sure. Downside? Sure. Same old stupid Knicks? Absolutely not.

His defensive metrics and +/- numbers are excellent.

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Kemet
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7/7/2017  10:56 AM
We are TANKING the next 4 seasons .. Stupid is what stupid does!
Tim Hardaway dont play a lick of defense opponents guards score on THJ at will.
We would have done much-much better resigning Holiday.
I thought we were trying to sign Rondo !!!
GustavBahler
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7/7/2017  10:58 AM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:lot of drama here. This is not a move I would have made but its not a head scratcher. THjr turned a big corner and played very well on both sides of the ball. If you are looking for an upward trending young player to risk some money on continuing that trend than THjr is a reasonable gamble. He fits the rebuilding time line. We will see what the other moves are as well.

If Atl doesnt match and the Knicks get a player who continues what he did as a starter last year there is nothing wrong with this. Time will tell. Its not great but its not the total WTF head scratcher that some make it out to be.

A team gives someone a deal like that not long after trading them away, that's drama alright. Im more stunned than anything. I was a fan of THJ his rookie year, was more clutch than Melo that season. But I was glad to see him go after his second season because I thought he flaked out, didn't put in the effort to improve his game. Sounds like Mills isnt going anywhere. This looks like more of the same.

it was 2 years ago, and they didnt trade him away. JR and Shump were traded away. THjr was traded for a young PG on draft night. I think there is a difference. You look at THjr last 2 years. He went to the D league, really struggled and popped last year. Is he trending upward or did he just find a comfort zone?

Also the fact that he WAS here is a positive, not a negative. Clearly they liked him as a person but were not high on him as a player. He's turned that corner in a big way. Is the THjr that finished the year the guy we signed? If so the Knicks did just fine. IF not... well that is the risk.

THjr: Trending upward. Finished strong. 24 years old fits with youth timeline. Athletic. Good size for the position. Skills have improved.

Risk: cap hit and dead contract prevents growth from a player like Dotson and hurts Knicks flexibility moving forward.

You know what changes this a lot? If the Knicks get a first rounder or other good asset for Lee.

Read your first sentence again fishbone. "He wasn't traded.. he was traded...."

Dont believe 2 years is that long, and his numbers not so improved that he should be tying up that much cap space for the next 4 years. THJ is going to have to play like a starter, not like someone who has found a niche off the bench.

This is a risk, but it also really smacks of playing it safe. Like going to a system that no one plays anymore because its familiar, or signing players to big contracts because they're from Utah, or Chicago, or they've played here before. Like keeping Mills on regardless of his record. Its a franchise that seeks the familiar. We dont need familiar anymore.

totally disagree... this is not familiar at all. Knicks bad contracts have ALWAYS been for over the hill vets or player with no upside. Spoon, Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Amare, Lee, Noah, Lopez, Afflalo, on and on... I dont ever remember taking a shot on a player with honest upside.

If the Knicks are getting the player that finished the last 30ish games as a starter than this is a good player and good contract and a good fit with the young guys already here. The risk is he is not that player.

When was the last time the Knicks took a shot on a guy who was 24? This is not same old Knicks. Risky? Sure. Downside? Sure. Same old stupid Knicks? Absolutely not.

His defensive metrics and +/- numbers are excellent.

Doubt this deal would have been made if Hardaway hadn't played here before. Not for this kind of money. How many other teams have offered THJ this kind of money? Sounds like a familiar question.

Uptown
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7/7/2017  10:59 AM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:lot of drama here. This is not a move I would have made but its not a head scratcher. THjr turned a big corner and played very well on both sides of the ball. If you are looking for an upward trending young player to risk some money on continuing that trend than THjr is a reasonable gamble. He fits the rebuilding time line. We will see what the other moves are as well.

If Atl doesnt match and the Knicks get a player who continues what he did as a starter last year there is nothing wrong with this. Time will tell. Its not great but its not the total WTF head scratcher that some make it out to be.

A team gives someone a deal like that not long after trading them away, that's drama alright. Im more stunned than anything. I was a fan of THJ his rookie year, was more clutch than Melo that season. But I was glad to see him go after his second season because I thought he flaked out, didn't put in the effort to improve his game. Sounds like Mills isnt going anywhere. This looks like more of the same.

it was 2 years ago, and they didnt trade him away. JR and Shump were traded away. THjr was traded for a young PG on draft night. I think there is a difference. You look at THjr last 2 years. He went to the D league, really struggled and popped last year. Is he trending upward or did he just find a comfort zone?

Also the fact that he WAS here is a positive, not a negative. Clearly they liked him as a person but were not high on him as a player. He's turned that corner in a big way. Is the THjr that finished the year the guy we signed? If so the Knicks did just fine. IF not... well that is the risk.

THjr: Trending upward. Finished strong. 24 years old fits with youth timeline. Athletic. Good size for the position. Skills have improved.

Risk: cap hit and dead contract prevents growth from a player like Dotson and hurts Knicks flexibility moving forward.

You know what changes this a lot? If the Knicks get a first rounder or other good asset for Lee.

Read your first sentence again fishbone. "He wasn't traded.. he was traded...."

Dont believe 2 years is that long, and his numbers not so improved that he should be tying up that much cap space for the next 4 years. THJ is going to have to play like a starter, not like someone who has found a niche off the bench.

This is a risk, but it also really smacks of playing it safe. Like going to a system that no one plays anymore because its familiar, or signing players to big contracts because they're from Utah, or Chicago, or they've played here before. Like keeping Mills on regardless of his record. Its a franchise that seeks the familiar. We dont need familiar anymore.

totally disagree... this is not familiar at all. Knicks bad contracts have ALWAYS been for over the hill vets or player with no upside. Spoon, Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Amare, Lee, Noah, Lopez, Afflalo, on and on... I dont ever remember taking a shot on a player with honest upside.

If the Knicks are getting the player that finished the last 30ish games as a starter than this is a good player and good contract and a good fit with the young guys already here. The risk is he is not that player.

When was the last time the Knicks took a shot on a guy who was 24? This is not same old Knicks. Risky? Sure. Downside? Sure. Same old stupid Knicks? Absolutely not.

His defensive metrics and +/- numbers are excellent.

Alan Houston was the last player we signed that had great upside...

yellowboy90
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7/7/2017  11:00 AM
The one thing good about this deal is it is an overpay for a player who has a track record of being healthy and injury free.
Andrew
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7/7/2017  11:01 AM
Keep in mind....

40M for Curry
33M for Lowry
25M for Jrue Holiday
23M for JJ Reddick
19M for George Hill

PURE KNICKS LOVE
Nalod
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7/7/2017  11:02 AM
Everyone can paint a knick deal bad before a game even gets played.
I can well imagine that Courtney Lee is gone, and this guy is 6 years younger and improving and costs 5 mil more than Lee.
There will be a lot more done before we can shyt all over ourselves and superimpose that Mills big against himself.
Fact is you want a talented restricted guy, you have over pay him. Otto Porter got 25mil Per. This is inflation. League pass will go up, cable bill will go up.......and fans will do it anyway.
Now we worried about his motivation?
I think this is a signal that Melo is being moved or close to. Courtney Lee is part of a deal at some level.
Anger sells, don't buy!
fishmike
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7/7/2017  11:05 AM
Uptown wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
fishmike wrote:lot of drama here. This is not a move I would have made but its not a head scratcher. THjr turned a big corner and played very well on both sides of the ball. If you are looking for an upward trending young player to risk some money on continuing that trend than THjr is a reasonable gamble. He fits the rebuilding time line. We will see what the other moves are as well.

If Atl doesnt match and the Knicks get a player who continues what he did as a starter last year there is nothing wrong with this. Time will tell. Its not great but its not the total WTF head scratcher that some make it out to be.

A team gives someone a deal like that not long after trading them away, that's drama alright. Im more stunned than anything. I was a fan of THJ his rookie year, was more clutch than Melo that season. But I was glad to see him go after his second season because I thought he flaked out, didn't put in the effort to improve his game. Sounds like Mills isnt going anywhere. This looks like more of the same.

it was 2 years ago, and they didnt trade him away. JR and Shump were traded away. THjr was traded for a young PG on draft night. I think there is a difference. You look at THjr last 2 years. He went to the D league, really struggled and popped last year. Is he trending upward or did he just find a comfort zone?

Also the fact that he WAS here is a positive, not a negative. Clearly they liked him as a person but were not high on him as a player. He's turned that corner in a big way. Is the THjr that finished the year the guy we signed? If so the Knicks did just fine. IF not... well that is the risk.

THjr: Trending upward. Finished strong. 24 years old fits with youth timeline. Athletic. Good size for the position. Skills have improved.

Risk: cap hit and dead contract prevents growth from a player like Dotson and hurts Knicks flexibility moving forward.

You know what changes this a lot? If the Knicks get a first rounder or other good asset for Lee.

Read your first sentence again fishbone. "He wasn't traded.. he was traded...."

Dont believe 2 years is that long, and his numbers not so improved that he should be tying up that much cap space for the next 4 years. THJ is going to have to play like a starter, not like someone who has found a niche off the bench.

This is a risk, but it also really smacks of playing it safe. Like going to a system that no one plays anymore because its familiar, or signing players to big contracts because they're from Utah, or Chicago, or they've played here before. Like keeping Mills on regardless of his record. Its a franchise that seeks the familiar. We dont need familiar anymore.

totally disagree... this is not familiar at all. Knicks bad contracts have ALWAYS been for over the hill vets or player with no upside. Spoon, Jared Jeffries, Jerome James, Amare, Lee, Noah, Lopez, Afflalo, on and on... I dont ever remember taking a shot on a player with honest upside.

If the Knicks are getting the player that finished the last 30ish games as a starter than this is a good player and good contract and a good fit with the young guys already here. The risk is he is not that player.

When was the last time the Knicks took a shot on a guy who was 24? This is not same old Knicks. Risky? Sure. Downside? Sure. Same old stupid Knicks? Absolutely not.

His defensive metrics and +/- numbers are excellent.

Alan Houston was the last player we signed that had great upside...

and we literally gave THjr the exact same deal, with one year less.
fishmike - Making UltimateKnicks great again
Knicksfan
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7/7/2017  11:06 AM
Andrew wrote:Keep in mind....

40M for Curry
33M for Lowry
25M for Jrue Holiday
23M for JJ Reddick
19M for George Hill

And yet media says this is the worst deal of the summer? Really? SMH

Knicks_Fan
fitzfarm
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7/7/2017  11:07 AM
Kemet wrote:We are TANKING the next 4 seasons .. Stupid is what stupid does!
Tim Hardaway dont play a lick of defense opponents guards score on THJ at will.
We would have done much-much better resigning Holiday.
I thought we were trying to sign Rondo !!!

Young Timmy was a bad defender. But the ability was always there, and he became a good defender . His defensive +/- were excellent last year. I think people who haven't watched him play last season and just think we're getting super young raw Timmy we had drafted are in for a pleasant surprise. Timmy became the best player on that hawks team, he brought them to the playoffs, that's more then melo could do with rose and KP!

Vmart
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7/7/2017  11:08 AM
By far the worst contract was Kevin Lowery.
The Knicks' offer sheet to Tim Hardaway Jr. is the first truly bad contract of the 2017 offseason

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