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lord have mercy... Knicks sign Hardaway Jr to an offer sheet worth almost $80mm
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nyknickzingis
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7/15/2017  7:17 AM
Yeah, if this contract happens last summer, everyone is fine with it.
This summer though, teams were smarter and more stingy with their money.

Do realize that his teammate Paul Millsap on a per year basis got almost twice as much. So that's about what market value is. Tim Hardaway was a 15 points a game scorer based on last season. The value for that was about 50M and 13M per year based on the Waiters/Miami contract. We did overpay, but we had to make sure Atlanta does not match.

The issue I have with this is the Melo situation. If Melo is playing with Timmy, there's no way Timmy gets to play the same 15 ppg/3rd option role he had in Atlanta last year. You brought in Hardaway to be your star wing, and right now there's no way he can be that guy unless you trade Melo. They do many of the same things on the court and both are wings. With Melo, THJ is needed to be more of a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Which he is capable of being, but you don't pay a player that much to be an average 35% 3 point shooter, You made this deal to get the most out of his scoring abilty, to provide him a chance to become a 15 to 20 points a game scorer.

If we were keeping Melo, we needed to spend this money on a point guard like George Hill who complements Melo/KP more than Hardaway does.

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martin
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7/15/2017  8:11 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah, if this contract happens last summer, everyone is fine with it.
This summer though, teams were smarter and more stingy with their money.

Do realize that his teammate Paul Millsap on a per year basis got almost twice as much. So that's about what market value is. Tim Hardaway was a 15 points a game scorer based on last season. The value for that was about 50M and 13M per year based on the Waiters/Miami contract. We did overpay, but we had to make sure Atlanta does not match.

The issue I have with this is the Melo situation. If Melo is playing with Timmy, there's no way Timmy gets to play the same 15 ppg/3rd option role he had in Atlanta last year. You brought in Hardaway to be your star wing, and right now there's no way he can be that guy unless you trade Melo. They do many of the same things on the court and both are wings. With Melo, THJ is needed to be more of a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Which he is capable of being, but you don't pay a player that much to be an average 35% 3 point shooter, You made this deal to get the most out of his scoring abilty, to provide him a chance to become a 15 to 20 points a game scorer.

If we were keeping Melo, we needed to spend this money on a point guard like George Hill who complements Melo/KP more than Hardaway does.

Melo is not part of long term plan, most likely gone by trading camp.

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nyknickzingis
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7/15/2017  1:37 PM
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah, if this contract happens last summer, everyone is fine with it.
This summer though, teams were smarter and more stingy with their money.

Do realize that his teammate Paul Millsap on a per year basis got almost twice as much. So that's about what market value is. Tim Hardaway was a 15 points a game scorer based on last season. The value for that was about 50M and 13M per year based on the Waiters/Miami contract. We did overpay, but we had to make sure Atlanta does not match.

The issue I have with this is the Melo situation. If Melo is playing with Timmy, there's no way Timmy gets to play the same 15 ppg/3rd option role he had in Atlanta last year. You brought in Hardaway to be your star wing, and right now there's no way he can be that guy unless you trade Melo. They do many of the same things on the court and both are wings. With Melo, THJ is needed to be more of a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Which he is capable of being, but you don't pay a player that much to be an average 35% 3 point shooter, You made this deal to get the most out of his scoring abilty, to provide him a chance to become a 15 to 20 points a game scorer.

If we were keeping Melo, we needed to spend this money on a point guard like George Hill who complements Melo/KP more than Hardaway does.

Melo is not part of long term plan, most likely gone by trading camp.


I hope so.
It makes zero sense to keep Melo and Hardaway Jr with Porzingis on one lineup.
martin
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7/15/2017  1:44 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah, if this contract happens last summer, everyone is fine with it.
This summer though, teams were smarter and more stingy with their money.

Do realize that his teammate Paul Millsap on a per year basis got almost twice as much. So that's about what market value is. Tim Hardaway was a 15 points a game scorer based on last season. The value for that was about 50M and 13M per year based on the Waiters/Miami contract. We did overpay, but we had to make sure Atlanta does not match.

The issue I have with this is the Melo situation. If Melo is playing with Timmy, there's no way Timmy gets to play the same 15 ppg/3rd option role he had in Atlanta last year. You brought in Hardaway to be your star wing, and right now there's no way he can be that guy unless you trade Melo. They do many of the same things on the court and both are wings. With Melo, THJ is needed to be more of a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Which he is capable of being, but you don't pay a player that much to be an average 35% 3 point shooter, You made this deal to get the most out of his scoring abilty, to provide him a chance to become a 15 to 20 points a game scorer.

If we were keeping Melo, we needed to spend this money on a point guard like George Hill who complements Melo/KP more than Hardaway does.

Melo is not part of long term plan, most likely gone by trading camp.


I hope so.
It makes zero sense to keep Melo and Hardaway Jr with Porzingis on one lineup.

Makes less sense to trade Melo prematurely just cause of that, lot of time before training camp, this doesn't have to be worked out immediately

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meloshouldgo
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7/15/2017  1:50 PM
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah, if this contract happens last summer, everyone is fine with it.
This summer though, teams were smarter and more stingy with their money.

Do realize that his teammate Paul Millsap on a per year basis got almost twice as much. So that's about what market value is. Tim Hardaway was a 15 points a game scorer based on last season. The value for that was about 50M and 13M per year based on the Waiters/Miami contract. We did overpay, but we had to make sure Atlanta does not match.

The issue I have with this is the Melo situation. If Melo is playing with Timmy, there's no way Timmy gets to play the same 15 ppg/3rd option role he had in Atlanta last year. You brought in Hardaway to be your star wing, and right now there's no way he can be that guy unless you trade Melo. They do many of the same things on the court and both are wings. With Melo, THJ is needed to be more of a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Which he is capable of being, but you don't pay a player that much to be an average 35% 3 point shooter, You made this deal to get the most out of his scoring abilty, to provide him a chance to become a 15 to 20 points a game scorer.

If we were keeping Melo, we needed to spend this money on a point guard like George Hill who complements Melo/KP more than Hardaway does.

Melo is not part of long term plan, most likely gone by trading camp.


I hope so.
It makes zero sense to keep Melo and Hardaway Jr with Porzingis on one lineup.

Makes less sense to trade Melo prematurely just cause of that, lot of time before training camp, this doesn't have to be worked out immediately

How is it premature?

The only things that trickle down are wages and horse shit
smackeddog
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7/15/2017  2:07 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah, if this contract happens last summer, everyone is fine with it.
This summer though, teams were smarter and more stingy with their money.

Do realize that his teammate Paul Millsap on a per year basis got almost twice as much. So that's about what market value is. Tim Hardaway was a 15 points a game scorer based on last season. The value for that was about 50M and 13M per year based on the Waiters/Miami contract. We did overpay, but we had to make sure Atlanta does not match.

The issue I have with this is the Melo situation. If Melo is playing with Timmy, there's no way Timmy gets to play the same 15 ppg/3rd option role he had in Atlanta last year. You brought in Hardaway to be your star wing, and right now there's no way he can be that guy unless you trade Melo. They do many of the same things on the court and both are wings. With Melo, THJ is needed to be more of a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Which he is capable of being, but you don't pay a player that much to be an average 35% 3 point shooter, You made this deal to get the most out of his scoring abilty, to provide him a chance to become a 15 to 20 points a game scorer.

If we were keeping Melo, we needed to spend this money on a point guard like George Hill who complements Melo/KP more than Hardaway does.

Melo is not part of long term plan, most likely gone by trading camp.


I hope so.
It makes zero sense to keep Melo and Hardaway Jr with Porzingis on one lineup.

Makes less sense to trade Melo prematurely just cause of that, lot of time before training camp, this doesn't have to be worked out immediately

How is it premature?

It's premature if the only deal on the table has you taking on an extra year of salary- as much as I want him gone I don't see the point in moving him only to take on Meyers and Harkless 3 year deals or Ryan Anderson's $20mil x 3 years- I'd rather just keep Melo and hope he opts out after the first year.

Rookie
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7/15/2017  3:45 PM
Melo will only waive his NTC for two teams. Neither team has cap space, players we want, expirings we'll take or draft picks. Big surprise, deal not done.
frenchy00
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7/15/2017  5:03 PM
smackeddog wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah, if this contract happens last summer, everyone is fine with it.
This summer though, teams were smarter and more stingy with their money.

Do realize that his teammate Paul Millsap on a per year basis got almost twice as much. So that's about what market value is. Tim Hardaway was a 15 points a game scorer based on last season. The value for that was about 50M and 13M per year based on the Waiters/Miami contract. We did overpay, but we had to make sure Atlanta does not match.

The issue I have with this is the Melo situation. If Melo is playing with Timmy, there's no way Timmy gets to play the same 15 ppg/3rd option role he had in Atlanta last year. You brought in Hardaway to be your star wing, and right now there's no way he can be that guy unless you trade Melo. They do many of the same things on the court and both are wings. With Melo, THJ is needed to be more of a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Which he is capable of being, but you don't pay a player that much to be an average 35% 3 point shooter, You made this deal to get the most out of his scoring abilty, to provide him a chance to become a 15 to 20 points a game scorer.

If we were keeping Melo, we needed to spend this money on a point guard like George Hill who complements Melo/KP more than Hardaway does.

Melo is not part of long term plan, most likely gone by trading camp.


I hope so.
It makes zero sense to keep Melo and Hardaway Jr with Porzingis on one lineup.

Makes less sense to trade Melo prematurely just cause of that, lot of time before training camp, this doesn't have to be worked out immediately

How is it premature?

It's premature if the only deal on the table has you taking on an extra year of salary- as much as I want him gone I don't see the point in moving him only to take on Meyers and Harkless 3 year deals or Ryan Anderson's $20mil x 3 years- I'd rather just keep Melo and hope he opts out after the first year.

Agree. Premature if your not getting value in return.

Also not sure why Melo, KP, and THJ cant play together. GS, Cavs, seemed to figure out how to play w plenty months to feed. Even Rondos Boston and Miami Big 3. Sure many eill come back saying Melo is a ball hog...i really dont see this as the situation. Melo pretty much shot because he had to. Put a proper team around him with some good catching and chances are Melo w flourish.

nyknickzingis
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7/16/2017  7:34 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/16/2017  7:36 AM
Thing about Golden State or Cleveland.

First and foremost, the #1 guy is a player that moves the ball. Not a Melo type of iso heavy player. If a Melo came to that team, he'd be put into a Klay or Love role with some isolations, not to be the forefront of the offense. Curry or Lebron are the forefront of that offense.

Second, the culture. It's about defense, ball movement, teamwork. Melo's game is about isolations. He sometimes can play the dad Melo role and do great. I love it when he does. It isn't consistent with who he is. If it were, I'd bet money that Phil Jackson would value Melo and never speak ill of him.

Third, KP. KP has a chip on his shoulder. His camp, after last season where he upped his scoring average to 18 a game, were unhappy with how he was used. I'd bet money that KP has an aim of 20+ points a night. He's become quite the "chucker" himself. His skills are incredible. He is a scorer. He wants to be one.

I just don't see it working. Especially without a great point guard leading the way. I could see in a fast breaking, high tempo offense, KP with 20, Melo with 22 and THj with 15. We'd be awful as a team though. Similar like last year. Too much 1 on 1. Too much focus on taking the shot, creating a shot, instead of finding the open man and running the team offense.

Chandler
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7/16/2017  7:54 AM
nyknickzingis wrote:
martin wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:Yeah, if this contract happens last summer, everyone is fine with it.
This summer though, teams were smarter and more stingy with their money.

Do realize that his teammate Paul Millsap on a per year basis got almost twice as much. So that's about what market value is. Tim Hardaway was a 15 points a game scorer based on last season. The value for that was about 50M and 13M per year based on the Waiters/Miami contract. We did overpay, but we had to make sure Atlanta does not match.

The issue I have with this is the Melo situation. If Melo is playing with Timmy, there's no way Timmy gets to play the same 15 ppg/3rd option role he had in Atlanta last year. You brought in Hardaway to be your star wing, and right now there's no way he can be that guy unless you trade Melo. They do many of the same things on the court and both are wings. With Melo, THJ is needed to be more of a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. Which he is capable of being, but you don't pay a player that much to be an average 35% 3 point shooter, You made this deal to get the most out of his scoring abilty, to provide him a chance to become a 15 to 20 points a game scorer.

If we were keeping Melo, we needed to spend this money on a point guard like George Hill who complements Melo/KP more than Hardaway does.

Melo is not part of long term plan, most likely gone by trading camp.


I hope so.
It makes zero sense to keep Melo and Hardaway Jr with Porzingis on one lineup.

I am not disagreeing but it also makes little sense to have melo in Houston

Somehow I think that just like Houston thinks they have a scheme for melo horny might too

Melo at 4 and thj at 3 is better than melo at 3

Having said that our best move is a trade

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martin
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7/16/2017  11:21 AM
Chandler wrote:I am not disagreeing but it also makes little sense to have melo in Houston

Somehow I think that just like Houston thinks they have a scheme for melo horny might too

Melo at 4 and thj at 3 is better than melo at 3

Having said that our best move is a trade

I think the thought in Houston is that with CP3 and Harden being ball dominant, they would use Melo as an outlet rather than a focal point of offense. Heck, maybe even have him come off bench with Eric and both of those guys could dominate shots.

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CrushAlot
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7/16/2017  12:12 PM
martin wrote:
Chandler wrote:I am not disagreeing but it also makes little sense to have melo in Houston

Somehow I think that just like Houston thinks they have a scheme for melo horny might too

Melo at 4 and thj at 3 is better than melo at 3

Having said that our best move is a trade

I think the thought in Houston is that with CP3 and Harden being ball dominant, they would use Melo as an outlet rather than a focal point of offense. Heck, maybe even have him come off bench with Eric and both of those guys could dominate shots.

This. I think he would be a fantastic third option for them and he would e much more effective with less minutes and two very effective ball handlers. I think Gordon will have to be included to get a trade done.
I think we know what we're doing..... Phil Jackson
GustavBahler
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7/16/2017  6:06 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/16/2017  6:38 PM
Still believe we overpaid, but if Hardaway jr. produces....

This article is about the shortage of wing players around the league. Its about an SL player, but I thought it also sort of applies to the Knicks with getting THJ.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/07/16/nba-summer-league-wings-rockets-troy-williams

There is no force in the league more disruptive than scarcity. Every coach and executive has a closely held vision for how a team should play. All are forced, on some level, to compromise. Those franchises lucky enough to land a superstar often have to forsake their teambuilding preferences to make the most of what they have. Fit still matters—as does philosophy. Those factors are simply overwhelmed by the practical reality that the vast majority of teams will never get the exact kinds of players they want because there are so few of those players in the first place.

This holds true beyond the superstar class, most notably in the NBA's current pool of wings. Point guards are everywhere; free agents like George Hill, Jeff Teague, and Darren Collison shuffled among the same tiny subset of teams due to the prohibitive number of starting jobs already filled. Quality bigs, too, will sit on the trading block for months in an oversaturated market. Not so for wing players, whose already useful games have been gilded by circumstance. The list of helpful, two-way wings is much shorter than those in the league would like. So many of the best shooters and creators at that position are glaring defensive liabilities. Those who have committed themselves fully to defensive detail often stunt their team's offense through limitation.

Every team wants a fully actualized Danny Green, but few have the willingness or the bandwidth to help a player like Williams find the Green in his game. The wing shortage, then, hits even harder. Part of the reason why no team can match up well with the Warriors or the Cavs is that they have trouble finding the depth of wings necessary to play elite-level small ball. Even those that do – like Boston, for instance – soon run into the crippling expense that comes with such needed players hitting the open market. The pervasive need drives up their price, making the entire arrangement that much more untenable.
nixluva
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7/17/2017  12:50 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Still believe we overpaid, but if Hardaway jr. produces....

This article is about the shortage of wing players around the league. Its about an SL player, but I thought it also sort of applies to the Knicks with getting THJ.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/07/16/nba-summer-league-wings-rockets-troy-williams

There is no force in the league more disruptive than scarcity. Every coach and executive has a closely held vision for how a team should play. All are forced, on some level, to compromise. Those franchises lucky enough to land a superstar often have to forsake their teambuilding preferences to make the most of what they have. Fit still matters—as does philosophy. Those factors are simply overwhelmed by the practical reality that the vast majority of teams will never get the exact kinds of players they want because there are so few of those players in the first place.

This holds true beyond the superstar class, most notably in the NBA's current pool of wings. Point guards are everywhere; free agents like George Hill, Jeff Teague, and Darren Collison shuffled among the same tiny subset of teams due to the prohibitive number of starting jobs already filled. Quality bigs, too, will sit on the trading block for months in an oversaturated market. Not so for wing players, whose already useful games have been gilded by circumstance. The list of helpful, two-way wings is much shorter than those in the league would like. So many of the best shooters and creators at that position are glaring defensive liabilities. Those who have committed themselves fully to defensive detail often stunt their team's offense through limitation.

Every team wants a fully actualized Danny Green, but few have the willingness or the bandwidth to help a player like Williams find the Green in his game. The wing shortage, then, hits even harder. Part of the reason why no team can match up well with the Warriors or the Cavs is that they have trouble finding the depth of wings necessary to play elite-level small ball. Even those that do – like Boston, for instance – soon run into the crippling expense that comes with such needed players hitting the open market. The pervasive need drives up their price, making the entire arrangement that much more untenable.

I agree with this. The Knicks over paid cuz they realized the NEED and VALUE of having a wing who can fill a role as a shooter and attacking the rim. THJ is at the perfect time in his development to join the rest of the young roster. Sometimes it's worth it to splurge on a position with so few impact players.

lord have mercy... Knicks sign Hardaway Jr to an offer sheet worth almost $80mm

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