martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.

Good question.....

Knicks since 2001- Pre Melo and a lot of first round draft picks.. 279-459

Knicks with Melo, very little support and no Phil 141-117

Phil's Knicks 80-166

Knicks with Melo out of lineup but on roster 9-51

But he is the problem. We sure are heading in the right direction since Phil. Smh

You're focused on the W/L which is fine but it's not the only thing at issue. The team MUST do what is necessary to build a Title Contender! Not just a Playoff team but a team with a legitimate chance to one day contend for a Title.

That means Phil had to build a foundation this franchise could build upon. He has been trying to do that but still win! This was unsuccessful but it was only one part of his overall plan! He said from DAY ONE that he was going to have a FUTURE COMPONENT to this team and he's done just that. This is bigger than Melo!!!

I agree. It's bigger than Melo. But you guys dont give it up. Your point is always back to Melo being to blame. And Phil having no blame for the state we are in. See, I am a Melo fan but moreso a Knick fan. And can clearly see that Dolan has starphucked you guys with yet another big name. It is no different that his big name is in the front office. And the Knicks future is the real point, as you said.

So Nix, where are we after three years of Phil. Please name the building blocks we have in place after 3 years? Name the Draft picks Phil has made that are part of the foundation? Name the trades he has made that are part of the foundation? You can say it over and over again that he is doing the right thing but after 3 yeras of him making trades and picks surely you can come up with a quick list of several players that are the key to a turnaround? How has he influenced the ability to attract young free agents to our system? Even at the college level, athletic directors know that one of the most important tools in building a program is to be able to attract talented players to their program.

I don't think I've seen anyone really do that. Most will just stop reading what you have to say right there.

That may be a good point. But Nix is special case. Lol. If some argue that everything I write is about Phil, fair enough. But thats becasue I see him as our "Biggest" issue. Melo to me is the least of our problems. One that should be gone in a few more months. The biggest issue I have with some posters, is that their defense for all that is upside down, in Knicks world, is Melo. That is just not good enough. Nor statistically true. and definately not the solution going forward. Again, in defending Melo it sometimes takes away from my real point. Phil is our biggest issue. I have presented many facts to support that. Just asking those that disagree to do the same.

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.

Good question.....

Knicks since 2001- Pre Melo and a lot of first round draft picks.. 279-459

Knicks with Melo, very little support and no Phil 141-117

Phil's Knicks 80-166

Knicks with Melo out of lineup but on roster 9-51

But he is the problem. We sure are heading in the right direction since Phil. Smh

You're focused on the W/L which is fine but it's not the only thing at issue. The team MUST do what is necessary to build a Title Contender! Not just a Playoff team but a team with a legitimate chance to one day contend for a Title.

That means Phil had to build a foundation this franchise could build upon. He has been trying to do that but still win! This was unsuccessful but it was only one part of his overall plan! He said from DAY ONE that he was going to have a FUTURE COMPONENT to this team and he's done just that. This is bigger than Melo!!!

I agree. It's bigger than Melo. But you guys dont give it up. Your point is always back to Melo being to blame. And Phil having no blame for the state we are in. See, I am a Melo fan but moreso a Knick fan. And can clearly see that Dolan has starphucked you guys with yet another big name. It is no different that his big name is in the front office. And the Knicks future is the real point, as you said.

So Nix, where are we after three years of Phil. Please name the building blocks we have in place after 3 years? Name the Draft picks Phil has made that are part of the foundation? Name the trades he has made that are part of the foundation? You can say it over and over again that he is doing the right thing but after 3 yeras of him making trades and picks surely you can come up with a quick list of several players that are the key to a turnaround? How has he influenced the ability to attract young free agents to our system? Even at the college level, athletic directors know that one of the most important tools in building a program is to be able to attract talented players to their program.

I don't think I've seen anyone really do that. Most will just stop reading what you have to say right there.

That may be a good point. But Nix is special case. Lol. If some argue that everything I write is about Phil, fair enough. But thats becasue I see him as our "Biggest" issue. Melo to me is the least of our problems. One that should be gone in a few more months. The biggest issue I have with some posters, is that their defense for all that is upside down, in Knicks world, is Melo. That is just not good enough. Nor statistically true. and definately not the solution going forward. Again, in defending Melo it sometimes takes away from my real point. Phil is our biggest issue. I have presented many facts to support that. Just asking those that disagree to do the same.

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.

Good question.....

Knicks since 2001- Pre Melo and a lot of first round draft picks.. 279-459

Knicks with Melo, very little support and no Phil 141-117

Phil's Knicks 80-166

Knicks with Melo out of lineup but on roster 9-51

But he is the problem. We sure are heading in the right direction since Phil. Smh

You're focused on the W/L which is fine but it's not the only thing at issue. The team MUST do what is necessary to build a Title Contender! Not just a Playoff team but a team with a legitimate chance to one day contend for a Title.

That means Phil had to build a foundation this franchise could build upon. He has been trying to do that but still win! This was unsuccessful but it was only one part of his overall plan! He said from DAY ONE that he was going to have a FUTURE COMPONENT to this team and he's done just that. This is bigger than Melo!!!

I agree. It's bigger than Melo. But you guys dont give it up. Your point is always back to Melo being to blame. And Phil having no blame for the state we are in. See, I am a Melo fan but moreso a Knick fan. And can clearly see that Dolan has starphucked you guys with yet another big name. It is no different that his big name is in the front office. And the Knicks future is the real point, as you said.

So Nix, where are we after three years of Phil. Please name the building blocks we have in place after 3 years? Name the Draft picks Phil has made that are part of the foundation? Name the trades he has made that are part of the foundation? You can say it over and over again that he is doing the right thing but after 3 yeras of him making trades and picks surely you can come up with a quick list of several players that are the key to a turnaround? How has he influenced the ability to attract young free agents to our system? Even at the college level, athletic directors know that one of the most important tools in building a program is to be able to attract talented players to their program.

I don't think I've seen anyone really do that. Most will just stop reading what you have to say right there.

That may be a good point. But Nix is special case. Lol. If some argue that everything I write is about Phil, fair enough. But thats becasue I see him as our "Biggest" issue. Melo to me is the least of our problems. One that should be gone in a few more months. The biggest issue I have with some posters, is that their defense for all that is upside down, in Knicks world, is Melo. That is just not good enough. Nor statistically true. and definately not the solution going forward. Again, in defending Melo it sometimes takes away from my real point. Phil is our biggest issue. I have presented many facts to support that. Just asking those that disagree to do the same.

Statistically, this franchise was terrible way before Phil. At best, you can cherry pick a small stretch (Melo, pre-Phil) where the team was slightly above .500. That was the best stretch in 15 years.

And that is an endorsement for Phil how? What is Phil's record compared to non Melo era?

HofstraBBall wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.

Good question.....

Knicks since 2001- Pre Melo and a lot of first round draft picks.. 279-459

Knicks with Melo, very little support and no Phil 141-117

Phil's Knicks 80-166

Knicks with Melo out of lineup but on roster 9-51

But he is the problem. We sure are heading in the right direction since Phil. Smh

You're focused on the W/L which is fine but it's not the only thing at issue. The team MUST do what is necessary to build a Title Contender! Not just a Playoff team but a team with a legitimate chance to one day contend for a Title.

That means Phil had to build a foundation this franchise could build upon. He has been trying to do that but still win! This was unsuccessful but it was only one part of his overall plan! He said from DAY ONE that he was going to have a FUTURE COMPONENT to this team and he's done just that. This is bigger than Melo!!!

I agree. It's bigger than Melo. But you guys dont give it up. Your point is always back to Melo being to blame. And Phil having no blame for the state we are in. See, I am a Melo fan but moreso a Knick fan. And can clearly see that Dolan has starphucked you guys with yet another big name. It is no different that his big name is in the front office. And the Knicks future is the real point, as you said.

So Nix, where are we after three years of Phil. Please name the building blocks we have in place after 3 years? Name the Draft picks Phil has made that are part of the foundation? Name the trades he has made that are part of the foundation? You can say it over and over again that he is doing the right thing but after 3 yeras of him making trades and picks surely you can come up with a quick list of several players that are the key to a turnaround? How has he influenced the ability to attract young free agents to our system? Even at the college level, athletic directors know that one of the most important tools in building a program is to be able to attract talented players to their program.

I don't think I've seen anyone really do that. Most will just stop reading what you have to say right there.

That may be a good point. But Nix is special case. Lol. If some argue that everything I write is about Phil, fair enough. But thats becasue I see him as our "Biggest" issue. Melo to me is the least of our problems. One that should be gone in a few more months. The biggest issue I have with some posters, is that their defense for all that is upside down, in Knicks world, is Melo. That is just not good enough. Nor statistically true. and definately not the solution going forward. Again, in defending Melo it sometimes takes away from my real point. Phil is our biggest issue. I have presented many facts to support that. Just asking those that disagree to do the same.

Statistically, this franchise was terrible way before Phil. At best, you can cherry pick a small stretch (Melo, pre-Phil) where the team was slightly above .500. That was the best stretch in 15 years.

And that is an endorsement for Phil how? What is Phil's record compared to non Melo era?

The Knicks were 10 games short of .500 which is where the Bulls ended up. This team lost over 16 games by 5 or less points! A lot of last second losses. It made things look worse than they should. I don't blame Phil for that many close losses! If you're in a game that is single digits in the last 5 minutes then really that's a game you should win. Stops! Execution! 2nd Effort on the boards or closing out on shooters! That's what we're talking about. That's on the players. In particular the BEST players on your team.

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:Ahhh the satisfaction of shitting in your own oatmeal. Hate just never gets old, does it?

Simple math that shows, starkly, that compared to other superstars, Melo plays with sheehit. And what's the predictable response?

1) He's a DOUCHE, move on.
2) It's HIS fault his teammates suck!
3) Uhhhhhh, he's the worst player since ...Chris Smith! Yeah, Chris Smith!
4) I still miss Gallo. Really, I do.
5) LINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN COMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEE BACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
6) He didn't win a chip with these shmoes either, so just STFU
7) He's such a cancer. Look how he's infected our favorite Latvian wet dream!
8) Willy! Willy! Willy! Willy can play the 5 and the 4 and the 3!
9) See number 8, we don't need this iso overpaid defenseless POS! Honestly, we'd win more with David Lee!
10) tkf was right, dammit!

you forgot...
11) Damn if only he would play defense <---AND THEN DAMN! EVERYONE ELSE WOULD PLAY DEFENSE TOO
12) Damn if only he would pass <-----BUT HE LED THE TEAM IN ASSISTS FOR A SEASON, BUT WHO GIVES A SHAT ABOUT THAT
13) Damn if only he were young again <-----AND THEN DAMN! BEING YOUNGER WOULD ERASE THE FACT THAT HE'S BEEN PLAYING WITH SHAT, WHICH IS THE POINT OF THE POST

That being said none of that matters. What matters is what is best for the Knicks moving on. If you think continuing to build around a scorer with declining skills and athleticism who was ranked the #431st best defender in the NBA that has a very me-first agenda that is your call. Others see it as a bad fit and want to move on.

Also I have never shat in my own oatmeal, but the day is young.

Great points, fish. Remove Melo, get chips. Lets see it happen. Hope and pray the new saviour decides to come back from Latvia.
Or your oatmeal might taste a whooooooole lot better if you pitched a dump in it right now.

Riddle me this Willyman, if Rose and Noah had actually been at 85% of optimal for most of this season, would you have embarked on this whole dkt7th impersonation?

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

martin wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:they also dont tell the whole truth. What's our record with Melo? What is your point? Once again it sounds like your answering some question that nobody is asking.

Good question.....

Knicks since 2001- Pre Melo and a lot of first round draft picks.. 279-459

Knicks with Melo, very little support and no Phil 141-117

Phil's Knicks 80-166

Knicks with Melo out of lineup but on roster 9-51

But he is the problem. We sure are heading in the right direction since Phil. Smh

You're focused on the W/L which is fine but it's not the only thing at issue. The team MUST do what is necessary to build a Title Contender! Not just a Playoff team but a team with a legitimate chance to one day contend for a Title.

That means Phil had to build a foundation this franchise could build upon. He has been trying to do that but still win! This was unsuccessful but it was only one part of his overall plan! He said from DAY ONE that he was going to have a FUTURE COMPONENT to this team and he's done just that. This is bigger than Melo!!!

I agree. It's bigger than Melo. But you guys dont give it up. Your point is always back to Melo being to blame. And Phil having no blame for the state we are in. See, I am a Melo fan but moreso a Knick fan. And can clearly see that Dolan has starphucked you guys with yet another big name. It is no different that his big name is in the front office. And the Knicks future is the real point, as you said.

So Nix, where are we after three years of Phil. Please name the building blocks we have in place after 3 years? Name the Draft picks Phil has made that are part of the foundation? Name the trades he has made that are part of the foundation? You can say it over and over again that he is doing the right thing but after 3 yeras of him making trades and picks surely you can come up with a quick list of several players that are the key to a turnaround? How has he influenced the ability to attract young free agents to our system? Even at the college level, athletic directors know that one of the most important tools in building a program is to be able to attract talented players to their program.

I don't think I've seen anyone really do that. Most will just stop reading what you have to say right there.

Martin... that is his go-to and its just made up. Ive said 100x Phil has been bad and made tons of mistakes. Guy just cant get past it. HofstraBBall you can say it over and over again because its the only thing that is holding your argument, which doesnt exist in the first place.

Everyone understands the current state of the team is Phil's fault. Most also understand if Phil is going to succeed at his job more big roster changes need to happen and that is going to start with the guys who dont share the ball and dont defend. Yes, Phil gave the NTC and brought in Rose. Yes those are Phil's mistakes. Best thing to do with mistakes? Get out the eraser and fix it, even if it leaves an ugly smudge for a little while.

Fish, first time I have seen you say its Phil's fault. But maybe I was too busy trying to prove my point to notice. And my go to move is supporting, with stats or info, the point I am trying to make. Ofcourse, the only thing to do is move forward and forget about mistakes made. Specially if your Phil. My argument with you and Nix has always been that Phil has/will hurt the franchise more than Melo. Somehow, I think you feel I am defending Melo and all his defficiencies. That argument is yet to be held prior to him being inducted into the Hall of Fame.

Point is, there is nothing you guys have listed or that Phil has done that makes it logical to expect that Phil will not continue to put us in a declining direction. Trust me. I want you to be right. And would love the list you can compose. Just dont think its goes past 2 lines. And opposed by a long list against. .

Ive said 80000 times that the only good Phil has done is draft a couple guys. I have said over and over again his trades were not good, his FA signings did not improve the team and he gave MElo the contract. Now I dont think every move that doesnt work is a disaster, but I have been saying the same thing over and over. You have such an anti-Phil boner you dont actually read anything that doesnt start with "here is why Phil sucks..."

Phil tried to make good with Melo. He tried to build a cast around him. He tried to bring in players to get that squad back to the playoffs. All those were fails. Now he's got a mostly young team and has backed into a rebuild. He wanted a team that defends and plays system ball. Phil tried with Melo. It didnt work. Now we can yank all day over who's to blame or we can look at what needs to be fixed.

80000? Thats alot. Okay, so we both agree that Phil is to blame for this mess. And that Melo has not worked.(With Phil). Agree that this is a clown show regardless if Melo is here. Disagree that Phil is leading us in the right direction. Disagree that Phil tried to build around Melo? Please dont make me list the list of excellent talent he has brought over.

So lets move on to the future....we both agree that its best for Melo to go. What do you put the probability at that he is traded? 100%? I think there is a chance he stays.

The Knicks were essentially built like Westbrook's OKC Thunder team - and you could make a strong argument that the Thunder roster outside Westbrook is miles better than a Knicks roster outside Melo.

And yet guys here KEEP blaming Melo like taking him off the team is some sort of solution. The problem is the guy who built the team. Maybe he's better at rebuilding through the draft than building a team through trades and free agency. Let's hope so.

Good lord, I can't wait for Melo to be gone, if only to see who the next scapegoat is. It's so ****ing tired at this point. Yes, Melo should be gone this summer. What's next? God only knows. If you have a lot of optimism about where Phil goes from here in spite of how he's handled the Melo situation, the KP developing situation, free agency, trades, the coaching situation, the media... I have a bridge in Brooklyn I think we could make a competitive offer on.

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Metrics say Harden is as bad a defender as Melo. But the Rockets built a team to Harden's strengths and have players like Beverly to compensate for his weaknesses. It's called building a team.

The Knicks were essentially built like Westbrook's OKC Thunder team - and you could make a strong argument that the Thunder roster outside Westbrook is miles better than a Knicks roster outside Melo.

And yet guys here KEEP blaming Melo like taking him off the team is some sort of solution. The problem is the guy who built the team. Maybe he's better at rebuilding through the draft than building a team through trades and free agency. Let's hope so.

Good lord, I can't wait for Melo to be gone, if only to see who the next scapegoat is. It's so ****ing tired at this point. Yes, Melo should be gone this summer. What's next? God only knows. If you have a lot of optimism about where Phil goes from here in spite of how he's handled the Melo situation, the KP developing situation, free agency, trades, the coaching situation, the media... I have a bridge in Brooklyn I think we could make a competitive offer on.

At this point Melo can't carry a team. Period. He was really good in 2012-13 and 2013-14, ages 28 and 29. Injured half the year in 2014-15, DadMelo 2015-16 and shell of self in 2016-17.

Harden is just about 28 and may have 2-3 years at this level. Maybe.

Has there been a team that is built on a player who is a super star at one end of the court but a minus at the other? You may have a 2-3 year window with that player and every other player around him has to be a defensive specialist. Iverson needed Defensive player of the year and 3-4 other high level defensive players just to make up for him. Made it to finals once but otherwise not sustainable.

Can Harden and Westbrook carry their respective teams? They just played each other and Westbrook out first round. It'll be interesting to see if Harden can go further than next round.

Personally, I'd rather have a team concept like Utah than either OKC or Houston.

Utah sure looks good don't they. Just solid basketball. Making the Clips look silly.

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

crzymdups wrote:Metrics say Harden is as bad a defender as Melo. But the Rockets built a team to Harden's strengths and have players like Beverly to compensate for his weaknesses. It's called building a team.

The Knicks were essentially built like Westbrook's OKC Thunder team - and you could make a strong argument that the Thunder roster outside Westbrook is miles better than a Knicks roster outside Melo.

And yet guys here KEEP blaming Melo like taking him off the team is some sort of solution. The problem is the guy who built the team. Maybe he's better at rebuilding through the draft than building a team through trades and free agency. Let's hope so.

Good lord, I can't wait for Melo to be gone, if only to see who the next scapegoat is. It's so ****ing tired at this point. Yes, Melo should be gone this summer. What's next? God only knows. If you have a lot of optimism about where Phil goes from here in spite of how he's handled the Melo situation, the KP developing situation, free agency, trades, the coaching situation, the media... I have a bridge in Brooklyn I think we could make a competitive offer on.

At this point Melo can't carry a team. Period. He was really good in 2012-13 and 2013-14, ages 28 and 29. Injured half the year in 2014-15, DadMelo 2015-16 and shell of self in 2016-17.

Harden is just about 28 and may have 2-3 years at this level. Maybe.

Has there been a team that is built on a player who is a super star at one end of the court but a minus at the other? You may have a 2-3 year window with that player and every other player around him has to be a defensive specialist. Iverson needed Defensive player of the year and 3-4 other high level defensive players just to make up for him. Made it to finals once but otherwise not sustainable.

Can Harden and Westbrook carry their respective teams? They just played each other and Westbrook out first round. It'll be interesting to see if Harden can go further than next round.

Personally, I'd rather have a team concept like Utah than either OKC or Houston.

Utah sure looks good don't they. Just solid basketball. Making the Clips look silly.

They remind me of the 54 win roster, just way to many 30 yr olds, and a very weak bench, and no blake