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Willing to flip a 2018 lotto restricted pick
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Jmpasq
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4/24/2017  7:41 AM
Briggs didnt you say we were going to be in the lottery the next 3-5 seasons? We are going to be terrible staring down a season with zero picks just like the Nets
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Bonn1997
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4/24/2017  8:13 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/24/2017  8:13 AM
Jmpasq wrote:Briggs didnt you say we were going to be in the lottery the next 3-5 seasons? We are going to be terrible staring down a season with zero picks just like the Nets

I think what he clarified in the reply to me was that he wants the pick indefinitely protected through #14. I'm not sure you're allowed to do that. Given how bad our franchise is, protection to 14 is basically saying to Orlando that they may not get our pick for another 5 or more years, or may never even get it. So I don't think that will work even if the league does allow indefinite protection on traded picks.
Anyone know if the league does allow that and if it actually ever happens? It's something I've been wondering.
franco12
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4/24/2017  8:54 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:Briggs didnt you say we were going to be in the lottery the next 3-5 seasons? We are going to be terrible staring down a season with zero picks just like the Nets

I think what he clarified in the reply to me was that he wants the pick indefinitely protected through #14. I'm not sure you're allowed to do that. Given how bad our franchise is, protection to 14 is basically saying to Orlando that they may not get our pick for another 5 or more years, or may never even get it. So I don't think that will work even if the league does allow indefinite protection on traded picks.
Anyone know if the league does allow that and if it actually ever happens? It's something I've been wondering.

Yea - I think you could put the protection, and then say in year 3, the pick is conveyed as a second rounder.

So I think the main thing is at some definite point, a pick is conveyed.

I also read or heard - forget where- that you can have such protection that the pick is never going to be transferred.

franco12
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4/24/2017  8:58 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:Doubt if the Knicks see a big difference...and not sure we want Tatum. Any rumors about him? I think a few years from now Isaac will be the better player- more versatile...better defender. He might be a legit 4 position defender.

On principle, though, don't want to give up a chance for a #1 unless you are talking about getting a guy like Towns.

The nba has very few players that really make a difference . Tatum will be one of them

Think back to the Curry draft - would we be better off if we had been able to switch with Golden State to pick Curry, or even leap over them?

So, I think a rational argument can be made for doing what Briggs is suggesting.

However, I think we're so far away, have so many holes and needs that I'm not trading up, or back.

Now maybe if I love the pick so much, I'd trade Porzingas, especially if I have questions about his ability to grow and stay healthy.

BRIGGS
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4/24/2017  11:09 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/24/2017  11:15 AM
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
WaltLongmire wrote:Doubt if the Knicks see a big difference...and not sure we want Tatum. Any rumors about him? I think a few years from now Isaac will be the better player- more versatile...better defender. He might be a legit 4 position defender.

On principle, though, don't want to give up a chance for a #1 unless you are talking about getting a guy like Towns.

The nba has very few players that really make a difference . Tatum will be one of them

Think back to the Curry draft - would we be better off if we had been able to switch with Golden State to pick Curry, or even leap over them?

So, I think a rational argument can be made for doing what Briggs is suggesting.

However, I think we're so far away, have so many holes and needs that I'm not trading up, or back.

Now maybe if I love the pick so much, I'd trade Porzingas, especially if I have questions about his ability to grow and stay healthy.

Exactly. I want to make sure the Knicks walk out of this draft with a player who they can fit in right away.


This is my thinking

draft to 5 is in 3 tiers--after that it really gets sketchy--I mean if I can get 1 of the top 4 players I d give up a future 1 that has indefinite lottery protection until conveyed(which is still a very nice asset) Hopefully well have some luck and the decision will be easy. Tatum doesnt have the elite athleticism (he might be pick 1 if he did and why Jackson is assuredly ahead of him) AND his FG% are below my personal minimum thresholds but his FT % is above@ 85 so you think that they overall will improve. When people say this guy will fill out--sometimes that could be a yes or a no--in Tatums case its a yes--hes going to become thicker. You like that he handles like a guard that he has good dribble control with lengthy arms so he can play at all 3 levels. He already has the advanced skill package--so its a matter of refinement and practice for him. Hes a two way player--and a Carmelo Anthony type rebounder. I think some versatility there as I can slot him 2-3 and even 4. I just think a lot there so if I can Id like to walk out with him if there is a scenario unless we get a top 2 pick.

jmho

1 Josh Jackson
2 Lonzo Ball
---------------
tier 2
Jayson Tatum
Markelle Fultz
---------------
Darron Fox

RIP Crushalot😞
TripleThreat
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4/24/2017  7:59 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:... he wants the pick indefinitely protected through #14. I'm not sure you're allowed to do that....

Been a little bit since I've dug through the last CBA.

IIRC, traded picks with protections can be protected for 3 full draft cycles, but on the 4th year, the language of the trade must confer the pick or the structure of the picks to the team that acquired it. ( Generally protected picks like 1st rounders that don't convey in the first few seasons convert to 2nd rounders. Usually two of them)

With regards to the Stepien Rule, IIRC, the protections will account for picks TRADED BEFORE the most recent protected trade transaction, but the Stepien Rule must be enforced within the framework around those grandfathered picks and not any future trade afterwards.

I.E. if a team trades it's 2018 first rounder, it can protect in 2017 ( upcoming), 2019 and 2020, but the pick must be conveyed by 2021.

The biggest change to the system was that previous acquired picks that are re-traded could not be previously protected. Now they can be protected.

I.E. when the Knicks traded a 1st for Bargnani, in the past, the Raptors, if they wanted to re-trade the pick, had to trade it "raw" without any protections. Now in the current system, the Raptors could re-trade it, but with protected restrictions.

What is yet unclear is if protections shorten depending on when draft pick slotting and compensation through the CBA expires ( i.e. the last labor war, the rookie scale and contract system was vested in place to the 2020-2021 season, this is the basis of "cost certainty" that makes the cost control cycle of drafted players, esp 1st rounders, so desirable) IIRC, the CBA has provisions for what amounts to a COLA (Cost of living addition) for the rookie scale, but not an overhaul of the system. Back in the Jordan days, rookies got 3 years guaranteed to scale instead of the laudy deals that Big Dog Robinson got, etc, etc. I suspect it will never be a functional issue, but I doubt, in a hypothetical, a team can trade with protections that extend past the negotiated CBA timeline for rookie scale and slotting.

I have to review the CBA at some point, but my best guess from memory is three full draft cycles for protection, barring a grandfathered Stepien consideration.

NardDogNation
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5/1/2017  1:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/1/2017  2:06 AM
I'm interested in selecting Jayson Tatum as well and I'm sure the Sixers like Malik Monk who would be available with our pick. Instead of moving future assets, why don't we use the proceeds from a Melo deal to arrange a deal with the Sixers for their pick?

NYK Trades: Carmelo Anthony, Courtney Lee, the 7th pick, the 44th and 58th picks
NYK Receives : Jamal Crawford, the 4th pick, 21st pick (via OKC), the 36th pick (via PHI) $33 million in cap savings, a 2020 and 2021 1st round pick swap (via LAC)

LAC Trades: Austin Rivers, JJ Redick (sign and trade), Jamal Crawford, a 2020 and 2021 1st round pick swap
LAC Recieves: Carmelo Anthony and Courtney Lee

OKC Trades: Victor Oladipo
OKC Recieves: JJ Redick and Austin Rivers

PHI Trades: 4th pick and $20 million in cap space
PHI Receives: Victor Oladipo, the 7th pick, 44th and 58th picks (via NYK)

Malik Monk, Victor Oladipo and Ben Simmons could all be psuedo-PGs for the Sixers, while we'd get Melo's replacement at the 3 spot.

Bonn1997
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5/1/2017  5:23 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:... he wants the pick indefinitely protected through #14. I'm not sure you're allowed to do that....

Been a little bit since I've dug through the last CBA.

IIRC, traded picks with protections can be protected for 3 full draft cycles, but on the 4th year, the language of the trade must confer the pick or the structure of the picks to the team that acquired it. ( Generally protected picks like 1st rounders that don't convey in the first few seasons convert to 2nd rounders. Usually two of them)

With regards to the Stepien Rule, IIRC, the protections will account for picks TRADED BEFORE the most recent protected trade transaction, but the Stepien Rule must be enforced within the framework around those grandfathered picks and not any future trade afterwards.

I.E. if a team trades it's 2018 first rounder, it can protect in 2017 ( upcoming), 2019 and 2020, but the pick must be conveyed by 2021.

The biggest change to the system was that previous acquired picks that are re-traded could not be previously protected. Now they can be protected.

I.E. when the Knicks traded a 1st for Bargnani, in the past, the Raptors, if they wanted to re-trade the pick, had to trade it "raw" without any protections. Now in the current system, the Raptors could re-trade it, but with protected restrictions.

What is yet unclear is if protections shorten depending on when draft pick slotting and compensation through the CBA expires ( i.e. the last labor war, the rookie scale and contract system was vested in place to the 2020-2021 season, this is the basis of "cost certainty" that makes the cost control cycle of drafted players, esp 1st rounders, so desirable) IIRC, the CBA has provisions for what amounts to a COLA (Cost of living addition) for the rookie scale, but not an overhaul of the system. Back in the Jordan days, rookies got 3 years guaranteed to scale instead of the laudy deals that Big Dog Robinson got, etc, etc. I suspect it will never be a functional issue, but I doubt, in a hypothetical, a team can trade with protections that extend past the negotiated CBA timeline for rookie scale and slotting.

I have to review the CBA at some point, but my best guess from memory is three full draft cycles for protection, barring a grandfathered Stepien consideration.


That's good info. Briggs would need to make the proposal more specific. Otherwise, what he's saying probably means we're switching positions and only giving up 2 2nd round picks in 4 years (unless we actually make the playoffs!)
Willing to flip a 2018 lotto restricted pick

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