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Insider Article:5 on 5 Can the Knicks tame chaos, trade Melo, and start winning agaain?
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Swishfm3
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4/23/2017  1:30 PM
nixluva wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

The same can be said for the folks asking to trade or get rid of Melo when he has a NTC.

That NTC is really only an ego boost once you get to the point where a team feels they can afford to lose without you. Melo simply won't risk destroying his brand by staying with a rebuilding team that doesn't want him!!!

They can't just trade him but they don't have to play him either. What does Melo gain by staying and having more drama and negativity? He WINS if he can go to a new team that actually wants him!!!

Until he waivers that NTC all this is pointless.

All these posts about how he may feel or what we think is best for him is asinine

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fwk00
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4/23/2017  2:34 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:Nothing fair and balanced here.

ESPN is notorious for banal sports reporting and this is just another example.

Okay, I get it. There are sports analysts who make their money bashing the Knicks, the coaching staff, Dolan, and so on. Bashing Phil seems to get them bonus points.

The hypocrisy starts with the very new idea that Phil was expected to turn the w-l record around in what amounts to less than three years after starting with a dysfunctional roster. *This* metric is what these sportswriters claim that Phil is incompetent, a failure, yada, yada, yada. But they don't stop with that. Oh, no.

*THEREFORE* the Knicks cannot possibly improve in the next few years! *FURTHERMORE* the Knicks have not improved at all in the last three years! *ERGO*, *ERGO* I tell ya it's chaos with the Knicks - cats living with dogs, NO PLAN!!!! - AIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO, ESPN still has their collective butts up their arses.

It would be refreshing for ESPN to maybe open their minds a crack and allow an alternative opinion to peek through.

1.) The Knicks will acquire a few more two-way players either through trade or the draft. FA signings will target defensive specialists.

2.) Dolan likes the job Phil is doing and is smart enough to understand that turning the Knicks around is not a short-term proposition. Even assuming that Dolan was as whimsical as firing Phil, there are NO plausible alternatives.

3.) Melo will get traded. Why is this a question?

4.) Noah will remain an important asset to the Knicks and his contract will not be stretched.

5.) Knicks will make the playoffs starting next year (assuming no chemistry killing injuries/cosmic misfirings).


Idiots.

I really like Herring. I enjoyed his Knick coverage when he was with the wsj but I didn't always agree with him. I think Begley might be the best beat reporter for the Knicks. Pelton is just a stat nerd who offers awesome insight. I think it was a great panel. I don't remember Herring or Begley's takes on the offseason moves prior to this past season but Pelton was very much against the Noah deal and the Rose signing. But his takes are almost scientific/no agenda.

In regards to the Knicks making the playoffs starting next year, I see no way that this happens with the current management team. I will clarify, I don't think this happens if they chase the 8th seed and go for stars and I don't think this happens if they go for younger players. I also don't think Noah will be an important asset to the Knicks. I love prime Noah but I think that ship has sailed. I hope I am wrong but I think that deal haunts the Knicks beyond Phil's tenure

I think there's way too much of a Greek chorus going on with Knicks coverage. I think a lot of it has to do with click-bait teasers and inciteful headlines. But the other is more insipid and that is the lack of thinking being put into what is being said. Sports reporting has fallen prey to what happens with political reporting - absurd shouting matches that always end with a Hitler story arc.

Phil has become their Hitler endpoint. Its like reading a great fiction story that leaves you anticipating a great ending and the final line is, "and it was all a dream". In these forums, its "Melo and Phil must go!"

The narrative that "Melo AND Phil must go" makes NO sense whatsoever. On what planet in what company does the President of a corporation quit because a line employee refuses to follow directions? How ridiculous can this storyline get?

And why aren't reporters held responsible for writing malicious fictions that destroy careers? And to apply the same standards, why isn't the President of Disney addressing the issue? Shouldn't they both "go".

Okay. Let's put that stuff aside.

Look Noah is an expensive asset, no argument. When I talk about him being a valuable asset though I'm really talking about him becoming a mentor for the bigmen and an impact player off the bench. I doubt he'll start with any regularity again. And I think in the playoffs he will play heroically much to the delight of the fans.

That said. Sure his fiscal contract is onerous but NBA onerous contracts are a dime a dozen. His contract is no less movable than many others. It won't happen this coming season but he'll eventually become attractive for trade somewhere down the line.

I don't think the management team has been the Knicks problem. Easy to say I know. But I don't think Phil has any aspiration to finish eighth. I think he's looking for middle of the pack [first] and I think its doable. It should have happened this year. I don't think Phil will chase stars but instead will chase solid contributors. The Knicks are very close to a tipping point for changing losses into wins. A good summer will reverse the recent trajectory.

I appreciate a polite response because I think we disagree on almost everything in regards to the Knicks. When I was able to find a source to read the article, I focused in on two guys, Begley and Pelton. Pelton is not a robot and has very strong opinions but he comes about his opinions in a robotic fashion. He uses analytics and supplements them with the eye test. Pelton's views are totally unbiased and numbers generated. Begley is the espn reporter for the Knicks. He has sources and knows the team as well as anybody. The other two guys are credentialed but I chose the two guys mentioned to focus on.

Well, the analytics guys will give you very myopic but accurate profiles of players on-court patterns. I'm not arguing something like that.

But when *that* myopic viewpoint is projected into the pragmatic decisions that had to be made, I think it turns into malicious disinformation that has turned many fans into a raving lynch mob.

Rose and Noah were always a package deal out of Chicago. Phil wanted to fulfill an obligation to Melo to bring in some FA vets. The FA pool wasn't there for the Knicks. Looking around, nor was there an opportunity to trade for a quality point guard. In that context, taking a chance on Rose and Noah made sense for the Knicks within Melo's window. Rose and Noah netted Courtney Lee and Holiday (a revelation).

And its easy to see that the team clicked early and coulda, shoulda, woulda made the playoffs with a little leadership from its so-called star. They wouldn't have won a ring but they would have been entertaining.

SO. Any reporter who in retrospect or even in real time would have to perform some historical forensics and come up with a plausible alternative plan to acquire talent to surround Melo with in a last-ditch effort to win with Melo. AND, it should be noted, that many players and executives around the league [in realtime] applauded the signings as a worthwhile risk including Mr. Excitement, Melo.

So, when I say that the pool of reporters is biased toward the lynch mob mentality, I think I'm being accurate. There are individuals out there who can lend balance to the discussion. A balance it deserves given the bonfires of the vanities that these haters have been feeding.

Phil wanted Noah. Getting him was not fulfilling an obligation to Melo. Noah and Phil are simpatico. Phil is responsible for the moves that he made. He is responsible for giving Melo one of only 3 ntc in existence in the nba. He is responsible for the bad trades and bad signings. He is responsible for doing things that were immediately called out as stupid moves before the team ever practiced together.

Then you will graciously give him credit for all of the positive consequences that create a winning team next year. After all, HE IS RESPONSIBLE for that too.

Absolutely. Things I like that Phil has done, hiring Mike Miller in Westchester, use of the dleague, bringing in Gaines, drafting KP and Willy, finding end of the bench guys from the udfa pool.

See. How hard was it to look at the bright side of things?

CrushAlot
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4/23/2017  3:13 PM
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:Nothing fair and balanced here.

ESPN is notorious for banal sports reporting and this is just another example.

Okay, I get it. There are sports analysts who make their money bashing the Knicks, the coaching staff, Dolan, and so on. Bashing Phil seems to get them bonus points.

The hypocrisy starts with the very new idea that Phil was expected to turn the w-l record around in what amounts to less than three years after starting with a dysfunctional roster. *This* metric is what these sportswriters claim that Phil is incompetent, a failure, yada, yada, yada. But they don't stop with that. Oh, no.

*THEREFORE* the Knicks cannot possibly improve in the next few years! *FURTHERMORE* the Knicks have not improved at all in the last three years! *ERGO*, *ERGO* I tell ya it's chaos with the Knicks - cats living with dogs, NO PLAN!!!! - AIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO, ESPN still has their collective butts up their arses.

It would be refreshing for ESPN to maybe open their minds a crack and allow an alternative opinion to peek through.

1.) The Knicks will acquire a few more two-way players either through trade or the draft. FA signings will target defensive specialists.

2.) Dolan likes the job Phil is doing and is smart enough to understand that turning the Knicks around is not a short-term proposition. Even assuming that Dolan was as whimsical as firing Phil, there are NO plausible alternatives.

3.) Melo will get traded. Why is this a question?

4.) Noah will remain an important asset to the Knicks and his contract will not be stretched.

5.) Knicks will make the playoffs starting next year (assuming no chemistry killing injuries/cosmic misfirings).


Idiots.

I really like Herring. I enjoyed his Knick coverage when he was with the wsj but I didn't always agree with him. I think Begley might be the best beat reporter for the Knicks. Pelton is just a stat nerd who offers awesome insight. I think it was a great panel. I don't remember Herring or Begley's takes on the offseason moves prior to this past season but Pelton was very much against the Noah deal and the Rose signing. But his takes are almost scientific/no agenda.

In regards to the Knicks making the playoffs starting next year, I see no way that this happens with the current management team. I will clarify, I don't think this happens if they chase the 8th seed and go for stars and I don't think this happens if they go for younger players. I also don't think Noah will be an important asset to the Knicks. I love prime Noah but I think that ship has sailed. I hope I am wrong but I think that deal haunts the Knicks beyond Phil's tenure

I think there's way too much of a Greek chorus going on with Knicks coverage. I think a lot of it has to do with click-bait teasers and inciteful headlines. But the other is more insipid and that is the lack of thinking being put into what is being said. Sports reporting has fallen prey to what happens with political reporting - absurd shouting matches that always end with a Hitler story arc.

Phil has become their Hitler endpoint. Its like reading a great fiction story that leaves you anticipating a great ending and the final line is, "and it was all a dream". In these forums, its "Melo and Phil must go!"

The narrative that "Melo AND Phil must go" makes NO sense whatsoever. On what planet in what company does the President of a corporation quit because a line employee refuses to follow directions? How ridiculous can this storyline get?

And why aren't reporters held responsible for writing malicious fictions that destroy careers? And to apply the same standards, why isn't the President of Disney addressing the issue? Shouldn't they both "go".

Okay. Let's put that stuff aside.

Look Noah is an expensive asset, no argument. When I talk about him being a valuable asset though I'm really talking about him becoming a mentor for the bigmen and an impact player off the bench. I doubt he'll start with any regularity again. And I think in the playoffs he will play heroically much to the delight of the fans.

That said. Sure his fiscal contract is onerous but NBA onerous contracts are a dime a dozen. His contract is no less movable than many others. It won't happen this coming season but he'll eventually become attractive for trade somewhere down the line.

I don't think the management team has been the Knicks problem. Easy to say I know. But I don't think Phil has any aspiration to finish eighth. I think he's looking for middle of the pack [first] and I think its doable. It should have happened this year. I don't think Phil will chase stars but instead will chase solid contributors. The Knicks are very close to a tipping point for changing losses into wins. A good summer will reverse the recent trajectory.

I appreciate a polite response because I think we disagree on almost everything in regards to the Knicks. When I was able to find a source to read the article, I focused in on two guys, Begley and Pelton. Pelton is not a robot and has very strong opinions but he comes about his opinions in a robotic fashion. He uses analytics and supplements them with the eye test. Pelton's views are totally unbiased and numbers generated. Begley is the espn reporter for the Knicks. He has sources and knows the team as well as anybody. The other two guys are credentialed but I chose the two guys mentioned to focus on.

Well, the analytics guys will give you very myopic but accurate profiles of players on-court patterns. I'm not arguing something like that.

But when *that* myopic viewpoint is projected into the pragmatic decisions that had to be made, I think it turns into malicious disinformation that has turned many fans into a raving lynch mob.

Rose and Noah were always a package deal out of Chicago. Phil wanted to fulfill an obligation to Melo to bring in some FA vets. The FA pool wasn't there for the Knicks. Looking around, nor was there an opportunity to trade for a quality point guard. In that context, taking a chance on Rose and Noah made sense for the Knicks within Melo's window. Rose and Noah netted Courtney Lee and Holiday (a revelation).

And its easy to see that the team clicked early and coulda, shoulda, woulda made the playoffs with a little leadership from its so-called star. They wouldn't have won a ring but they would have been entertaining.

SO. Any reporter who in retrospect or even in real time would have to perform some historical forensics and come up with a plausible alternative plan to acquire talent to surround Melo with in a last-ditch effort to win with Melo. AND, it should be noted, that many players and executives around the league [in realtime] applauded the signings as a worthwhile risk including Mr. Excitement, Melo.

So, when I say that the pool of reporters is biased toward the lynch mob mentality, I think I'm being accurate. There are individuals out there who can lend balance to the discussion. A balance it deserves given the bonfires of the vanities that these haters have been feeding.

Phil wanted Noah. Getting him was not fulfilling an obligation to Melo. Noah and Phil are simpatico. Phil is responsible for the moves that he made. He is responsible for giving Melo one of only 3 ntc in existence in the nba. He is responsible for the bad trades and bad signings. He is responsible for doing things that were immediately called out as stupid moves before the team ever practiced together.

Then you will graciously give him credit for all of the positive consequences that create a winning team next year. After all, HE IS RESPONSIBLE for that too.

Absolutely. Things I like that Phil has done, hiring Mike Miller in Westchester, use of the dleague, bringing in Gaines, drafting KP and Willy, finding end of the bench guys from the udfa pool.

See. How hard was it to look at the bright side of things?

I want the Knicks to win and get better. I just think it will be really hard to overcome having an executive as bad as Phil running things.

I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
franco12
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4/23/2017  5:24 PM
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

How is that drama? I think Dolan played it the same with Isiah - where he had to coach, and then when things didn't go well, he was out.

I think Dolan can let Phil go with 1 year left, and be able to say - he let Phil try, gave him plenty of rope, but while there has been progress, not as much as they need.

nixluva
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4/23/2017  5:29 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
fwk00 wrote:Nothing fair and balanced here.

ESPN is notorious for banal sports reporting and this is just another example.

Okay, I get it. There are sports analysts who make their money bashing the Knicks, the coaching staff, Dolan, and so on. Bashing Phil seems to get them bonus points.

The hypocrisy starts with the very new idea that Phil was expected to turn the w-l record around in what amounts to less than three years after starting with a dysfunctional roster. *This* metric is what these sportswriters claim that Phil is incompetent, a failure, yada, yada, yada. But they don't stop with that. Oh, no.

*THEREFORE* the Knicks cannot possibly improve in the next few years! *FURTHERMORE* the Knicks have not improved at all in the last three years! *ERGO*, *ERGO* I tell ya it's chaos with the Knicks - cats living with dogs, NO PLAN!!!! - AIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IMO, ESPN still has their collective butts up their arses.

It would be refreshing for ESPN to maybe open their minds a crack and allow an alternative opinion to peek through.

1.) The Knicks will acquire a few more two-way players either through trade or the draft. FA signings will target defensive specialists.

2.) Dolan likes the job Phil is doing and is smart enough to understand that turning the Knicks around is not a short-term proposition. Even assuming that Dolan was as whimsical as firing Phil, there are NO plausible alternatives.

3.) Melo will get traded. Why is this a question?

4.) Noah will remain an important asset to the Knicks and his contract will not be stretched.

5.) Knicks will make the playoffs starting next year (assuming no chemistry killing injuries/cosmic misfirings).


Idiots.

I really like Herring. I enjoyed his Knick coverage when he was with the wsj but I didn't always agree with him. I think Begley might be the best beat reporter for the Knicks. Pelton is just a stat nerd who offers awesome insight. I think it was a great panel. I don't remember Herring or Begley's takes on the offseason moves prior to this past season but Pelton was very much against the Noah deal and the Rose signing. But his takes are almost scientific/no agenda.

In regards to the Knicks making the playoffs starting next year, I see no way that this happens with the current management team. I will clarify, I don't think this happens if they chase the 8th seed and go for stars and I don't think this happens if they go for younger players. I also don't think Noah will be an important asset to the Knicks. I love prime Noah but I think that ship has sailed. I hope I am wrong but I think that deal haunts the Knicks beyond Phil's tenure

I think there's way too much of a Greek chorus going on with Knicks coverage. I think a lot of it has to do with click-bait teasers and inciteful headlines. But the other is more insipid and that is the lack of thinking being put into what is being said. Sports reporting has fallen prey to what happens with political reporting - absurd shouting matches that always end with a Hitler story arc.

Phil has become their Hitler endpoint. Its like reading a great fiction story that leaves you anticipating a great ending and the final line is, "and it was all a dream". In these forums, its "Melo and Phil must go!"

The narrative that "Melo AND Phil must go" makes NO sense whatsoever. On what planet in what company does the President of a corporation quit because a line employee refuses to follow directions? How ridiculous can this storyline get?

And why aren't reporters held responsible for writing malicious fictions that destroy careers? And to apply the same standards, why isn't the President of Disney addressing the issue? Shouldn't they both "go".

Okay. Let's put that stuff aside.

Look Noah is an expensive asset, no argument. When I talk about him being a valuable asset though I'm really talking about him becoming a mentor for the bigmen and an impact player off the bench. I doubt he'll start with any regularity again. And I think in the playoffs he will play heroically much to the delight of the fans.

That said. Sure his fiscal contract is onerous but NBA onerous contracts are a dime a dozen. His contract is no less movable than many others. It won't happen this coming season but he'll eventually become attractive for trade somewhere down the line.

I don't think the management team has been the Knicks problem. Easy to say I know. But I don't think Phil has any aspiration to finish eighth. I think he's looking for middle of the pack [first] and I think its doable. It should have happened this year. I don't think Phil will chase stars but instead will chase solid contributors. The Knicks are very close to a tipping point for changing losses into wins. A good summer will reverse the recent trajectory.

I appreciate a polite response because I think we disagree on almost everything in regards to the Knicks. When I was able to find a source to read the article, I focused in on two guys, Begley and Pelton. Pelton is not a robot and has very strong opinions but he comes about his opinions in a robotic fashion. He uses analytics and supplements them with the eye test. Pelton's views are totally unbiased and numbers generated. Begley is the espn reporter for the Knicks. He has sources and knows the team as well as anybody. The other two guys are credentialed but I chose the two guys mentioned to focus on.

Well, the analytics guys will give you very myopic but accurate profiles of players on-court patterns. I'm not arguing something like that.

But when *that* myopic viewpoint is projected into the pragmatic decisions that had to be made, I think it turns into malicious disinformation that has turned many fans into a raving lynch mob.

Rose and Noah were always a package deal out of Chicago. Phil wanted to fulfill an obligation to Melo to bring in some FA vets. The FA pool wasn't there for the Knicks. Looking around, nor was there an opportunity to trade for a quality point guard. In that context, taking a chance on Rose and Noah made sense for the Knicks within Melo's window. Rose and Noah netted Courtney Lee and Holiday (a revelation).

And its easy to see that the team clicked early and coulda, shoulda, woulda made the playoffs with a little leadership from its so-called star. They wouldn't have won a ring but they would have been entertaining.

SO. Any reporter who in retrospect or even in real time would have to perform some historical forensics and come up with a plausible alternative plan to acquire talent to surround Melo with in a last-ditch effort to win with Melo. AND, it should be noted, that many players and executives around the league [in realtime] applauded the signings as a worthwhile risk including Mr. Excitement, Melo.

So, when I say that the pool of reporters is biased toward the lynch mob mentality, I think I'm being accurate. There are individuals out there who can lend balance to the discussion. A balance it deserves given the bonfires of the vanities that these haters have been feeding.

Phil wanted Noah. Getting him was not fulfilling an obligation to Melo. Noah and Phil are simpatico. Phil is responsible for the moves that he made. He is responsible for giving Melo one of only 3 ntc in existence in the nba. He is responsible for the bad trades and bad signings. He is responsible for doing things that were immediately called out as stupid moves before the team ever practiced together.

Then you will graciously give him credit for all of the positive consequences that create a winning team next year. After all, HE IS RESPONSIBLE for that too.

Absolutely. Things I like that Phil has done, hiring Mike Miller in Westchester, use of the dleague, bringing in Gaines, drafting KP and Willy, finding end of the bench guys from the udfa pool.

See. How hard was it to look at the bright side of things?

I want the Knicks to win and get better. I just think it will be really hard to overcome having an executive as bad as Phil running things.

It all starts with the TALENT. Being able to draft more quality players can help make much easier decisions for ANY GM! Phil won't be as limited going forward. He'll have picks as well as Cap Space. Also not having to try and build around Melo will really Free him up to build the team he really wants.

I think fans need to dig deeper into the type of players Phil is adding without big names. Once you get past the big names the lunch pail guys are hard working and Team Oriented. Adding those kind of players is going to continue to increase as we move forward but with more actual Frontline Talent!

nixluva
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4/23/2017  5:33 PM
franco12 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

How is that drama? I think Dolan played it the same with Isiah - where he had to coach, and then when things didn't go well, he was out.

I think Dolan can let Phil go with 1 year left, and be able to say - he let Phil try, gave him plenty of rope, but while there has been progress, not as much as they need.

The thing is once you trade Melo the clock resets as you move into the KP ERA along with your new Draft Picks. Expectations change. Phil will not be fired and could end up with an extension.

EnySpree
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4/23/2017  6:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/23/2017  6:30 PM
franco12 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

How is that drama? I think Dolan played it the same with Isiah - where he had to coach, and then when things didn't go well, he was out.

I think Dolan can let Phil go with 1 year left, and be able to say - he let Phil try, gave him plenty of rope, but while there has been progress, not as much as they need.

Why does anything have to be played? Is Phil in the same situation Isiah was In? Its an entirely different situation. Phil needs too finish his contact. Dolan is playing it fine by not doing anything. We're not wining but we are still rebuilding. We need stability in ownership and in the front office. We have that... as soon as we trade Melo, all the side stories will be done with.... then the focus well be on the actual rebuild.... but beware... I'm sure the beat writers have a plan to keep the drama flowing.... focus. Enjoy the rebuild. Don't waste time on how things will be "played".

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knickscity
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4/23/2017  6:45 PM
nixluva wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

The same can be said for the folks asking to trade or get rid of Melo when he has a NTC.

That NTC is really only an ego boost once you get to the point where a team feels they can afford to lose without you. Melo simply won't risk destroying his brand by staying with a rebuilding team that doesn't want him!!!

They can't just trade him but they don't have to play him either. What does Melo gain by staying and having more drama and negativity? He WINS if he can go to a new team that actually wants him!!!


They could waive him as well, if folks think they really want to get rid of him. I doubt he gets traded though, unless the return is garbage. he's not waiving his ntc to go to gutted team.
yellowboy90
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4/23/2017  6:57 PM
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

The same can be said for the folks asking to trade or get rid of Melo when he has a NTC.

That NTC is really only an ego boost once you get to the point where a team feels they can afford to lose without you. Melo simply won't risk destroying his brand by staying with a rebuilding team that doesn't want him!!!

They can't just trade him but they don't have to play him either. What does Melo gain by staying and having more drama and negativity? He WINS if he can go to a new team that actually wants him!!!


They could waive him as well, if folks think they really want to get rid of him. I doubt he gets traded though, unless the return is garbage. he's not waiving his ntc to go to gutted team.

That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.

knickscity
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4/23/2017  6:59 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

The same can be said for the folks asking to trade or get rid of Melo when he has a NTC.

That NTC is really only an ego boost once you get to the point where a team feels they can afford to lose without you. Melo simply won't risk destroying his brand by staying with a rebuilding team that doesn't want him!!!

They can't just trade him but they don't have to play him either. What does Melo gain by staying and having more drama and negativity? He WINS if he can go to a new team that actually wants him!!!


They could waive him as well, if folks think they really want to get rid of him. I doubt he gets traded though, unless the return is garbage. he's not waiving his ntc to go to gutted team.

That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


Not really. Any team with space could pick him up then.
yellowboy90
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4/23/2017  7:01 PM
knickscity wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

The same can be said for the folks asking to trade or get rid of Melo when he has a NTC.

That NTC is really only an ego boost once you get to the point where a team feels they can afford to lose without you. Melo simply won't risk destroying his brand by staying with a rebuilding team that doesn't want him!!!

They can't just trade him but they don't have to play him either. What does Melo gain by staying and having more drama and negativity? He WINS if he can go to a new team that actually wants him!!!


They could waive him as well, if folks think they really want to get rid of him. I doubt he gets traded though, unless the return is garbage. he's not waiving his ntc to go to gutted team.

That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


Not really. Any team with space could pick him up then.

I doubt they would do that just like other players who have been waived.

knickscity
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4/23/2017  7:03 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
knickscity wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

The same can be said for the folks asking to trade or get rid of Melo when he has a NTC.

That NTC is really only an ego boost once you get to the point where a team feels they can afford to lose without you. Melo simply won't risk destroying his brand by staying with a rebuilding team that doesn't want him!!!

They can't just trade him but they don't have to play him either. What does Melo gain by staying and having more drama and negativity? He WINS if he can go to a new team that actually wants him!!!


They could waive him as well, if folks think they really want to get rid of him. I doubt he gets traded though, unless the return is garbage. he's not waiving his ntc to go to gutted team.

That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


Not really. Any team with space could pick him up then.

I doubt they would do that just like other players who have been waived.


He would definitely get claimed.
yellowboy90
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4/23/2017  10:24 PM
knickscity wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
knickscity wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
knickscity wrote:
nixluva wrote:
Swishfm3 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
franco12 wrote:I think Phil has this season to proof something to Dolan. I don't know if Dolan has given Phil an ultimatum. I don't know what needs to happen for Phil to stay beyond this year.

He's under contract for 2 more years... you guys gotta get the drama out of your head. It doesn't have to be a novela episode for everything

The same can be said for the folks asking to trade or get rid of Melo when he has a NTC.

That NTC is really only an ego boost once you get to the point where a team feels they can afford to lose without you. Melo simply won't risk destroying his brand by staying with a rebuilding team that doesn't want him!!!

They can't just trade him but they don't have to play him either. What does Melo gain by staying and having more drama and negativity? He WINS if he can go to a new team that actually wants him!!!


They could waive him as well, if folks think they really want to get rid of him. I doubt he gets traded though, unless the return is garbage. he's not waiving his ntc to go to gutted team.

That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


Not really. Any team with space could pick him up then.

I doubt they would do that just like other players who have been waived.


He would definitely get claimed.

The only team that would maybe claim them would be the Lakers and if that happens that would probably lead to a Paul George deal. Other rebuilding teams with cap space will not claim a guy they can't trade. They'll have similar problems albeit they would likely handle the situation better than Phil.

TripleThreat
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4/23/2017  10:26 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


If the Knicks got to the point to waive Melo and his last two years of his deal, they would go scorched Earth on Melo in the press. Every last bit of dirty laundry from his time here would be aired out. Every press resource would be used to slag him in public. Every last bit of discord, frustration and anger would be to ride Melo over the rails, again and again.

From a marketing standpoint, the "narrative" at that point would be Melo turned his back on NY and was not a true NYer.

Melo would get his freedom, but it would cost him in blood for his "branding"

This would be right out of the Patriots/Red Sox media playbook ( they completely and totally trash everyone on the way out the door, you would think Terry Francona and Wes Welker both set preschools on fire the way the media just ripped them apart )

yellowboy90
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4/23/2017  10:34 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


If the Knicks got to the point to waive Melo and his last two years of his deal, they would go scorched Earth on Melo in the press. Every last bit of dirty laundry from his time here would be aired out. Every press resource would be used to slag him in public. Every last bit of discord, frustration and anger would be to ride Melo over the rails, again and again.

From a marketing standpoint, the "narrative" at that point would be Melo turned his back on NY and was not a true NYer.

Melo would get his freedom, but it would cost him in blood for his "branding"

This would be right out of the Patriots/Red Sox media playbook ( they completely and totally trash everyone on the way out the door, you would think Terry Francona and Wes Welker both set preschools on fire the way the media just ripped them apart )

It would cost him nothing because you are not dealing with a stable franchise that has built up the media credibility. If you think the media is attacking the knicks now if they do that they will be destroyed further. The NBAPA would be on them in a second and the commissioner would come calling.

I really do hope the knicks go that route because that might lead to Silver to calling Dolan into his office.

nixluva
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4/23/2017  11:24 PM
yellowboy90 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


If the Knicks got to the point to waive Melo and his last two years of his deal, they would go scorched Earth on Melo in the press. Every last bit of dirty laundry from his time here would be aired out. Every press resource would be used to slag him in public. Every last bit of discord, frustration and anger would be to ride Melo over the rails, again and again.

From a marketing standpoint, the "narrative" at that point would be Melo turned his back on NY and was not a true NYer.

Melo would get his freedom, but it would cost him in blood for his "branding"

This would be right out of the Patriots/Red Sox media playbook ( they completely and totally trash everyone on the way out the door, you would think Terry Francona and Wes Welker both set preschools on fire the way the media just ripped them apart )

It would cost him nothing because you are not dealing with a stable franchise that has built up the media credibility. If you think the media is attacking the knicks now if they do that they will be destroyed further. The NBAPA would be on them in a second and the commissioner would come calling.

I really do hope the knicks go that route because that might lead to Silver to calling Dolan into his office.

Why the F would you wish that on the Knicks??? Are you a that upset about things that you've lost your goodwill towards the team? Cuz of the F'n OWNER? Man we need to get our priorities back in order cuz it should be about the actual team.

Melo is NOT good for the Knicks! People can hate on Phil but compare what Phil stands for with what Melo stands for! Phil is about winning, unselfish Team Oriented basketball where all the players are involved and have Agency. Melo is comfortable, lazy, doesn't play Team Ball and is more concerned with his Brand. IMO anger is misplaced with many in the Knicks Fanbase.

yellowboy90
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4/23/2017  11:32 PM
nixluva wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


If the Knicks got to the point to waive Melo and his last two years of his deal, they would go scorched Earth on Melo in the press. Every last bit of dirty laundry from his time here would be aired out. Every press resource would be used to slag him in public. Every last bit of discord, frustration and anger would be to ride Melo over the rails, again and again.

From a marketing standpoint, the "narrative" at that point would be Melo turned his back on NY and was not a true NYer.

Melo would get his freedom, but it would cost him in blood for his "branding"

This would be right out of the Patriots/Red Sox media playbook ( they completely and totally trash everyone on the way out the door, you would think Terry Francona and Wes Welker both set preschools on fire the way the media just ripped them apart )

It would cost him nothing because you are not dealing with a stable franchise that has built up the media credibility. If you think the media is attacking the knicks now if they do that they will be destroyed further. The NBAPA would be on them in a second and the commissioner would come calling.

I really do hope the knicks go that route because that might lead to Silver to calling Dolan into his office.

Why the F would you wish that on the Knicks??? Are you a that upset about things that you've lost your goodwill towards the team? Cuz of the F'n OWNER? Man we need to get our priorities back in order cuz it should be about the actual team.

Melo is NOT good for the Knicks! People can hate on Phil but compare what Phil stands for with what Melo stands for! Phil is about winning, unselfish Team Oriented basketball where all the players are involved and have Agency. Melo is comfortable, lazy, doesn't play Team Ball and is more concerned with his Brand. IMO anger is misplaced with many in the Knicks Fanbase.

Whats best for the knicks is a stable well organized team and Dolan/Phil/Melo gone

nixluva
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4/24/2017  12:05 AM
yellowboy90 wrote:
nixluva wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:That would be a smart move by Melo to force Phil to waive him.


If the Knicks got to the point to waive Melo and his last two years of his deal, they would go scorched Earth on Melo in the press. Every last bit of dirty laundry from his time here would be aired out. Every press resource would be used to slag him in public. Every last bit of discord, frustration and anger would be to ride Melo over the rails, again and again.

From a marketing standpoint, the "narrative" at that point would be Melo turned his back on NY and was not a true NYer.

Melo would get his freedom, but it would cost him in blood for his "branding"

This would be right out of the Patriots/Red Sox media playbook ( they completely and totally trash everyone on the way out the door, you would think Terry Francona and Wes Welker both set preschools on fire the way the media just ripped them apart )

It would cost him nothing because you are not dealing with a stable franchise that has built up the media credibility. If you think the media is attacking the knicks now if they do that they will be destroyed further. The NBAPA would be on them in a second and the commissioner would come calling.

I really do hope the knicks go that route because that might lead to Silver to calling Dolan into his office.

Why the F would you wish that on the Knicks??? Are you a that upset about things that you've lost your goodwill towards the team? Cuz of the F'n OWNER? Man we need to get our priorities back in order cuz it should be about the actual team.

Melo is NOT good for the Knicks! People can hate on Phil but compare what Phil stands for with what Melo stands for! Phil is about winning, unselfish Team Oriented basketball where all the players are involved and have Agency. Melo is comfortable, lazy, doesn't play Team Ball and is more concerned with his Brand. IMO anger is misplaced with many in the Knicks Fanbase.

Whats best for the knicks is a stable well organized team and Dolan/Phil/Melo gone

Dolan ain't going anywhere and Phil is here at least 2 more years!

Now Melo needs to go so this team can be built the right way. Melo had a chance to make it work but his game will only hold the team back from growing as it should. These players lean on him like a crutch and it's not healthy.

Phil has a clear set of principles to guide the rebuild. Even tho it's not yet at a level that makes a difference the things Phil wants are beginning to form. You can see it in the kids like Baker. Tough no nonsense team Oriented players. The process has already started.

TripleThreat
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4/24/2017  1:06 AM
yellowboy90 wrote:It would cost him nothing because you are not dealing with a stable franchise that has built up the media credibility. If you think the media is attacking the knicks now if they do that they will be destroyed further. The NBAPA would be on them in a second and the commissioner would come calling.

I really do hope the knicks go that route because that might lead to Silver to calling Dolan into his office.


Basic rule of the media, esp the sports media - Never let the truth nor logic get in the way of good story.

All Phil Jackson has to do, is what he has been doing, holding court in private to various media people and feeding them stories. As long as he's an "unnamed Knicks source", he can say whatever he wants.

It's not like Melo and Leon Rose and CAA are not playing the same game right now ( the various Fire Phil tone articles are not coming from nowhere)

Test blueprint was when LBJ left Cleveland the first time. He got run over the rails. At some point, what LBJ did was so stupid and childish and so out of touch with reality, that even the league spin control could not save him. Even Nike had to stretch deep to find a way to formulate a salvage plan for him.

Commish could give a rats ass about anyone trashing Melo in the press. NBA loves the controversy, they love ESPN First Take, they love the soap operate Westbrook Versus Durant storylines. Anything to generate hits, ratings, views and commercial time.

I assure you, if the Knicks wanted to roast Melo over the public coals, they could. The NBA, like the NFL, has it's own internal security. Each individual franchise also has its own internal security. Part of their job is to vet incoming players or potential draftees, the other function is to clean up/deal with existing players on their own roster. Melo is a large scale investment for the franchise, if he's got a child out of wedlock, if his wife is cheating on him, if he's involved in something shady, the team already knows about it. And if they want, they can release that all to the press. The reason they don't is he's their current player, it's cutting off their nose to spite their face in this case.

However if they are going to cut the guy, and if things got bad enough to cut him, who cares about his reputation? He's not a Knick anymore. The only value he has then is as a lightening rod for the failures of the franchise. Is he totally at fault? No. It's not all his fault. But he carries a lot of weight of fault for his part in the team's dysfunction and that's ammo for the team to use against him in the press.

So it's clear, I BLAME EVERYONE. I thought Jackson was a bad hire from the start. I said that years ago. I said it recently, I've said it always. I think Dolan is an idiot, I've said that for years. I've said Melo should be traded and off this roster YEARS AGO. I called him a 6th man years ago that doesn't fit this teams rebuilding timeline and carries too heavy a cap burden and too many negative trade offs to build around. Some people told me I was wrong and mocked me. Those same people aren't saying too much right now. I blame EVERYONE for the Knicks failures. Melo didn't hold a gun to Jackson's head to make the stupid Rose trade or to sign Noah. Jackson didn't hold a gun to Melo's head to be a selfish no defense shotjacking egomaniac who cares more about selling cologne and handbags than winning basketball games.

But the areas where Melo is at fault, if the Knicks cut him, will get the spotlight. They will ride him to the ground. Deserved? Undeserved? It's how it's going to happen.

A) Guy and girl go on a blind date. They never met before. They have mutual friends though who set them up. Girl decides guy is just too ugly or too poor or too whatever to get her wet. She won't kiss him goodnight, he has no chance, dude is just a free dinner at that point. But she's not going to cut him down and she's not going to run him roughshod. She's going to tell her female friends there is no chemistry. Or find anything to make herself not sound shallow. She wants to avoid the conflict but not look bad or feel bad. The impetus here is the "mutual friends" To damage him is to damage her standing in her own social circle and her perception in it.

B) Guy and girl go on a blind date. They never met before. They meet on a dating site. Girl decides guy is just too ugly or too poor or too whatever to get her wet. She won't kiss him goodnight, he has no chance, dude is just a free dinner at that point. She can be as cruel or as brutal as she wants. She doesn't work with dude, he doesn't know her friends, he doesn't know her family, he means nothing to her and to her life. She's going to tell her female friends that dude is a broke ass mother f**ker with a face that could stop a clock. If she's in a bad mood, she can even decide not to be civil anymore, she can just find a cheap excuse and leave and hope the other guy that treats her like used toilet paper decides to pump and dump her that night. The impetus here is his utility to her is ZERO and the cost to her to treat him any way she wants is ZERO. To damage him creates no damage to her standing in her own social circle nor to her perception in it.

When Melo is under contract and on the team, the two forces are "married" There are actual responsibilities and consequences in play.

When Melo is OFF THIS TEAM and if it happens to end badly, then it costs nothing to lift any kind of restraint via a "league or team unnamed source".

Would a guy call his current wife a b*tch to her face?

Would a guy call his EX WIFE where he has no more financial ties to or any obligations to a b*tch to her face?

Melo cares about "branding" To protect the Knicks brand, if Melo gets cut, they will run him roughshod in the press. Is Melo all to blame for the Knicks problems? No, he's a big part of it, but not the entire blame, but go back to the basic rule - Never let the truth nor logic get in the way of a good story.

I have a hard time seeing so many people here who spent most of their entire lives watching Bill Parcells pull the media strings like a weapon would be surprised at all to see anyone get run over in the press in NY when it serves the greater narrative at work.

fwk00
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4/24/2017  9:48 AM    LAST EDITED: 4/24/2017  9:49 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
yellowboy90 wrote:It would cost him nothing because you are not dealing with a stable franchise that has built up the media credibility. If you think the media is attacking the knicks now if they do that they will be destroyed further. The NBAPA would be on them in a second and the commissioner would come calling.

I really do hope the knicks go that route because that might lead to Silver to calling Dolan into his office.


-snip-

So it's clear, I BLAME EVERYONE. I thought Jackson was a bad hire from the start. I said that years ago. I said it recently, I've said it always. I think Dolan is an idiot, I've said that for years. I've said Melo should be traded and off this roster YEARS AGO. I called him a 6th man years ago that doesn't fit this teams rebuilding timeline and carries too heavy a cap burden and too many negative trade offs to build around. Some people told me I was wrong and mocked me. Those same people aren't saying too much right now. I blame EVERYONE for the Knicks failures. Melo didn't hold a gun to Jackson's head to make the stupid Rose trade or to sign Noah. Jackson didn't hold a gun to Melo's head to be a selfish no defense shotjacking egomaniac who cares more about selling cologne and handbags than winning basketball games.

-snip-

Trip, at least you're consistent. But its easy to be against everything [bad that's happened]. And you saw what preceeded Phil. Give me a plausible alternative that wouldn't logically play out as more of the same Layden-Isiah-Walsh pattern.

I GET the frustration of the w-l column. Trust me. I sometimes feel I won't live long enough to see another winning season. But when we fell down this year again, it was a soft landing. We have some tradeable assets, some picks, and looking at last year's record with so many close games lost, we are closing in on a promised land.

And being this close seems like exactly the wrong time to change everything again in the front office. It's like watching a slasher movie where 5 able-bodied teenagers say, "let's split up".

Insider Article:5 on 5 Can the Knicks tame chaos, trade Melo, and start winning agaain?

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