CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!

So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

you can't establish a culture if your roster is being turned over every year, you keep replacing coaches, and you keep switching systems. Hopefully the Knicks start to build a culture but nothing has been put in place for any length of time with Phil.

Perhaps I might clarify how I see this and how Phil is likely looking at this. I've said for a long time that once you draft a kid like KP who has franchise level talent you reset the clock. All that matters is from KP forward. The continuity is really about KP, Willy and who we draft this summer. The KP Era kids including UDFA's that stick like Baker are who we need to focus on in terms of continuity over the next five years.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!

So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

So he picks them one year and doesn't want them the next year? What does that say about his initial judgement to add them to the roster? You make it sound as though he is forced to sign these players. Lets look at Rolo. He fit the Triangle, somewhat young, did the intangibles and enabled Melo to have one of his best assist seasons in quite some time. But you trade him? Then you sign a injury prone, aging Noah to 4 years? How bout rebuild? You draft Grant and trade him after one year? Did he not see him play prior to the draft? Can we really say that Grant all of sudden changed his game to something so different from his college days? So a rebuild gives your rookies just one year to develop? Rose was for Melo? How exactly would a high usage player competing for touches help Melo? Nix man, I am tired of the Phil argument. maybe. But you cant obsolve the guy in charge of a three year 165 loss record.

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!

So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

you can't establish a culture if your roster is being turned over every year, you keep replacing coaches, and you keep switching systems. Hopefully the Knicks start to build a culture but nothing has been put in place for any length of time with Phil.

Perhaps I might clarify how I see this and how Phil is likely looking at this. I've said for a long time that once you draft a kid like KP who has franchise level talent you reset the clock. All that matters is from KP forward. The continuity is really about KP, Willy and who we draft this summer. The KP Era kids including UDFA's that stick like Baker are who we need to focus on in terms of continuity over the next five years.

The same KP that says this franchise is a mess from top to bottom?

There are different ways of rebuilding, different speeds. You can go with an instant "super friends" rebuild where you have a radically improved core, ready to legitimately challenge for a ring. As opposed to a quick fix which is done with the knowledge that the team should be more competitive, but no one rationally expects the team to reach the finals, let alone win a championship.

My ideal way of rebuilding is to find a potential star, build the team around his game, his strength's and weaknesses. Surround him with quality role players, by trade or draft who are more than just band aids. You build a team that plays well together with a potential rising star and you go out and surprise some teams. You get FAs to notice that with another star or two, this team could go places.

What you dont do is gut the team every season and start again almost from scratch. Im guessing this is the kind of rebuilding KP wants no part of. If this team gradually gets better, their record keeps improving, learning from their mistakes. Even if the rise isnt meteoric, I believe KP would see a team that is headed in the right direction, with a clear path and would be on board.

Right now it feels like its all to feed the Triangle, like its some unholy three sided beast from the great beyond, meant to capture our souls. Sorry, got carried away there lol.

Uptown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!

So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

you can't establish a culture if your roster is being turned over every year, you keep replacing coaches, and you keep switching systems. Hopefully the Knicks start to build a culture but nothing has been put in place for any length of time with Phil.

Perhaps I might clarify how I see this and how Phil is likely looking at this. I've said for a long time that once you draft a kid like KP who has franchise level talent you reset the clock. All that matters is from KP forward. The continuity is really about KP, Willy and who we draft this summer. The KP Era kids including UDFA's that stick like Baker are who we need to focus on in terms of continuity over the next five years.

The same KP that says this franchise is a mess from top to bottom?

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!

So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

So he picks them one year and doesn't want them the next year? What does that say about his initial judgement to add them to the roster? You make it sound as though he is forced to sign these players. Lets look at Rolo. He fit the Triangle, somewhat young, did the intangibles and enabled Melo to have one of his best assist seasons in quite some time. But you trade him? Then you sign a injury prone, aging Noah to 4 years? How bout rebuild? You draft Grant and trade him after one year? Did he not see him play prior to the draft? Can we really say that Grant all of sudden changed his game to something so different from his college days? So a rebuild gives your rookies just one year to develop? Rose was for Melo? How exactly would a high usage player competing for touches help Melo? Nix man, I am tired of the Phil argument. maybe. But you cant obsolve the guy in charge of a three year 165 loss record.

The W/L record is bad but it's only one aspect of what Phil has been doing. He never went ALL IN on winning and his clear intent was to try to win but not to sacrifice the future. Well that future is now!!! Phil is ready to move on from Melo and the youth movement is going to take precedence.

It's not about absolving Phil of anything. There's a clear shift going on. This is obviously a rebuild now. Not a prototypical rebuild but still a rebuild.

So he wasted all his time on purpose when evaluating all the new additions? Because his goal was to lose 165? "He never went All in on winning? What does that even mean? Presidents of operations should shy away from trying to win?

A True rebuild would be to trade Melo, trade Lee, Trade KO. waive Noah, not resign Rose and get a front office that will be around for at least 10 years. Im in.

Phil didn't go ALL IN on Win Now by selling off on youth. He only took calculated risks that still left his options open. This is not about the entire time he's been here. The clock reset after drafting KP. Now he can really try to put more Frontline talent around KP!!!

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!

So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

you can't establish a culture if your roster is being turned over every year, you keep replacing coaches, and you keep switching systems. Hopefully the Knicks start to build a culture but nothing has been put in place for any length of time with Phil.

You are just talking and not listening. We're running the triangle but we keep switching systems? But i though everyone wanted to switch systems away from the triangle🤔.

Keep changing coaches? Fisher turned out to be a cancerous piece of ****. Rambis was just an interim. Hoenacek got fired? Who's the coach going to be? Did i miss something?

Guys are resistant to change. That would be Melo and Rose... Jennings said guys weren't playing for each other. That's a real problem, so those players will not be back next year. Isn't that how you "rebuild"? How do you rebuild if you stay the same and never improve? We need better defenders right? We need a better point guard right?

Oy vey...

EnySpree wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

EnySpree wrote:I think we are doing a good job of establishing a culture. Phil wants team basketball. That's why he's pushing for system offense. He wants hard workers. Team players. It's not rocket science. It's also not a exact science.

Phil's mistakes are noted, but his positives aren't. We have a nice group players that fit the mold of hard working team players. Phil has Horny and he has his informant in Rambis... thet well sort out who's worth keeping. We have youth and we're adding to it... we're not going to sign a superstar. We are gonna have to draft or trade for one. We need to get lucky. We also probably will need to hit the jackpot on a trade somewhere down the line.

It's like a Rubix cube... at fittest it looks impossible, then all of a sudden everything opens up and you complete the puzzle. We just have to keep at it

The Knicks brought in ten new players this year. That is two thirds of the roster. Management wants to get rid of the longest tenured Knick and my guess is Sasha or KOQ isn't back. I don't know how you can establish a culture if you reset the roster every year and keep switching coaches and philosophies. Maybe this starting to happen. It hasn't happened yet under Phil.

MOST of the team is likely coming back. Also this is about the LONG TERM and not just next season. They will have some continuity next year but also an influx of LONG TERM pieces! That's the whole point of a rebuild. Younger core players that you can run with for many years!

So do we agree that there isn't and the team hasn't had continuity during Phil's first 3 yrs?

Sure! But why would you want continuity with players you don't want? You don't force things keeping players you don't want, just to say you have continuity.

Phil yr 1 cleans house and drafts KP and Willy. He tries in yr 2 to build up some value and he does and trades RoLo. Yr 3 he tries to cater to Melo and brings in some vets. However he at the same time brought in 5 rookies and kept his options open. This summer he gives up on the Melo Era and will likely bring back a good % of the roster.

you can't establish a culture if your roster is being turned over every year, you keep replacing coaches, and you keep switching systems. Hopefully the Knicks start to build a culture but nothing has been put in place for any length of time with Phil.

You are just talking and not listening. We're running the triangle but we keep switching systems? But i though everyone wanted to switch systems away from the triangle🤔.

Keep changing coaches? Fisher turned out to be a cancerous piece of ****. Rambis was just an interim. Hoenacek got fired? Who's the coach going to be? Did i miss something?

Guys are resistant to change. That would be Melo and Rose... Jennings said guys weren't playing for each other. That's a real problem, so those players will not be back next year. Isn't that how you "rebuild"? How do you rebuild if you stay the same and never improve? We need better defenders right? We need a better point guard right?

Oy vey...

WaltLongmire wrote:Have pointed this out a few times... Phil could not do a true "strip it down" rebuild because of what past folks in his position had left him.

You can go back on your own to look at the 2014 and 2016 drafts to see what we might have ended with if Phil had all of our picks we've given away over the years... 1st and 2nd rounds.

I'm not sure he would have signed Melo if he had a full complement of picks.

Phil misused Chandler as a trade asset- maybe we could have traded him to the Cavs for the 2 #1s they gave Denver for Mosgov.

If he really didn't want JR, he should have traded him immediately- his contract had only a year left and it was only about $5M. It might have helped Hardaway, who could have emerged as more of a leader without Melo and Smith around. Maybe Shumpert even fits in a little better.

Water under the bridge, obviously, but for me the biggest issues for Phil was that he wanted the game played a certain way, was saddled with a star he probably didn't want, and was missing the draft picks which he would have benefited from if he had jettisoned Melo, Smith, and Chandler.

Walt, you and a few others make perfect sense. I just scratch my head when I see the same belligerent criticisms being rehashed in every imaginable and unimaginable combination of ignorance.

Phil has made controversial moves. BFD. Who's to say that everyone else's theories wouldn't have made it all worse? Magical thinking on the part of these critics has them convinced that trading Chandler, Felton, JR, and Shump should have yielded enough talent to be contending for a ring by now.

fwk00 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

Rebuild is when your main focus is getting young players who you believe will be effective for many years. It has nothing to do with the percentage of players you drafted. You can trade for or sign young players. But you definitely don't spend $250 mil on guys like Noah, Melo, and Rose.

Jesus Bonn. Statements like this are so TMZ inflammatory and out of context that they just suck.

Let's just take Melo.

In 2012-13 the Knicks had a 54 win team with Melo averaging almost 29PPG, highest in the league, and 37 MPG. Legit MVP candidate. He was 28.

2013-14 Knicks didn't do as well but Melo still brought it. Played nearly 39 minutes per game. Scored 27.4 per game, shot 40% from 3pt land. 8 RPG. Played 77 games. Only 29.

Are you telling me as a GM you would NOT bring this type of guy back even if you knew you were gonna go through some sort of rebuild? He was an UFA.

I hate the NTC but Phil is in a pickle here and has zero leverage with Melo realistically. The owner wants him to have a marque guy and is in the hunt for all star game (or was that already decided). Dude just came off of an MPV quality season - and maybe another if the record is better?

Melo comes to him and says I really really really want to stay in NY and I just proved to the organization with 2 years of buff play. I am ready for 3-4 more years at this level. If I don't get NTC I walk.

What can Phil say to this? And as GM, would you be AOK with Melo walking for nothing as your first months on job?

Frankly, I didn't think Melo would break down this fast, he is a shell of himself. Sucks.

A very fair and accurate account of the historical record. Phil did not "gift" a NTC to Melo. Melo took a fiscal haircut and demanded the NTC in return.

That's not exactly shrewd on Phil's part. It would be less bad if he just gave Melo the extra 1 mil a season and didn't have the NTC actually.

yellowboy90 wrote:

martin wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:I'm a little confused on what you guys consider a rebuild, it just seem like we have been through this process many times.

How many teams in this league have more then 2 or 3 above avg players currently on the roster they actually drafted?

Rebuild is when your main focus is getting young players who you believe will be effective for many years. It has nothing to do with the percentage of players you drafted. You can trade for or sign young players. But you definitely don't spend $250 mil on guys like Noah, Melo, and Rose.

Jesus Bonn. Statements like this are so TMZ inflammatory and out of context that they just suck.

Let's just take Melo.

In 2012-13 the Knicks had a 54 win team with Melo averaging almost 29PPG, highest in the league, and 37 MPG. Legit MVP candidate. He was 28.

2013-14 Knicks didn't do as well but Melo still brought it. Played nearly 39 minutes per game. Scored 27.4 per game, shot 40% from 3pt land. 8 RPG. Played 77 games. Only 29.

Are you telling me as a GM you would NOT bring this type of guy back even if you knew you were gonna go through some sort of rebuild? He was an UFA.

I hate the NTC but Phil is in a pickle here and has zero leverage with Melo realistically. The owner wants him to have a marque guy and is in the hunt for all star game (or was that already decided). Dude just came off of an MPV quality season - and maybe another if the record is better?

Melo comes to him and says I really really really want to stay in NY and I just proved to the organization with 2 years of buff play. I am ready for 3-4 more years at this level. If I don't get NTC I walk.

What can Phil say to this? And as GM, would you be AOK with Melo walking for nothing as your first months on job?

Frankly, I didn't think Melo would break down this fast, he is a shell of himself. Sucks.

The issue is that you can survive with overpaying for a Melo or a Rose or a Noah but it is not smart to double or triple down on your bet by putting all three of them together.

The NTC is a big issue but lets take that out. You bring back Melo after a season removed from helping his team win 54. Wouldn't it be smart to study what made him and that team successful and try to mold your team in a similar image while making sure to strengthen some of that 54 win team weaknesses?

So far his Phil seems like someone who only looks at one side of a puzzle piece while falling to notice how the other sides of the piece don't fit in. He looks at the team a says we need someone who can get to the basket and goes out and gets Rose falling to understand how bad of a defender/passer he has been recently.

When Phil came in we were a 37 win team not a 54 win team. We had Tyson Chandler having a injury riddle year while openly throwing Woodson under the bus for his defensive schemes after every game. We had Raymond Felton catching a gun charge and a divorce and playing like a scrub. We had Jr Smith addicted to coke and partying and dropping from 18pts per game 6th man of the year (which is the first and only time he has done that in his career and not something to be counted on) to 14.5pts per game. We had Shump more interested in NY night life and his rap alblums then putting the work to develop his game. And limited contributions from Amare and Bargs who combined for something like 40mil.

With all that we also had no cap space and gave up our draft pick for Bargs.